Engineers of PalmTalk

[LouisvillePalmer]

Not sure if there are any engineers or hobbyist that like tinkering with things or creating things.. but I have had an idea the past year in my head and wanted to see if it can come to fruition.

 

Basically, I want to make an outdoor solar powered air heater that you can place around a palm tree. In theory, it would have a vent that blows air up, pushing it towards the crown of the palm even though it is on the ground. I can't seem to find many, if any, products online that are outdoor solar powered heaters. If anyone tinkers with things or specifically tinkering with solar, please let me know if we can experiment this.

 

If possible - imagine the zone pushing capabilities for palm growers in an easy plant it and forget it manner. No building boxes around the palm, no protection. Just place the solar heater next to your palm for winter and remove it in the spring.

 

Let me know if its viable or if my imagination has gotten the best of me.

[Allen]

Not viable as my average setup is 80 watts or more per palm and you need a huge solar setup to power that not to mention in winter you usually have no sun.  Batteries etc are not viable for heating palms in any meaningful manner.  You would still need to wrap or enclose your palm.  A heater out in the open blowing on it is not going to work on solar.

You can buy this and hook it up to mini Christmas lights and a battery if you want.  You will need one for each tree.  I use about 900 watts total on my palms.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200773337_200773337?cm_mmc=Google-LIA&utm_source=Google_LIA&utm_medium=Electrical > Renewable Energy > Solar Panels %2B Accessories&utm_campaign=Nature Power&utm_content=88432&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl7qSBhD-ARIsACvV1X2P7KRO3laxpd29eQciMTBx3QIxkYezyZPMqyElbgQqXtgNUWOfi-caAkj6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.batterysharks.com/RENOGY-PV-Solar-Panles-p/renogy_b12-100.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjwl7qSBhD-ARIsACvV1X2UPq5R8Pewq0OyLxMqHHgZU_go-c-kBO_pTAq9XUZ9xOKK4Ry63sgaAt4kEALw_wcB

Edited April 7, 2022 by Allen

[teddytn]

I like the direction of your train of thought. I’ve thought over the years if someone ran radiant floor heating lines in their driveway to melt ice and snow like I’ve heard some people with deep pockets doing up north lol, if planting palms in close proximity to the driveway or even creating a planting bed with radiant heat lines in it would keep a more marginal palm alive….fantasy’s lol 

[jwitt]

I probably hold most of your requirements regarding the solar/palm/eng requirements. Well, concerning palms, I have more experience in killing.   

Your proposal would work but be very cost prohibitive.  It is what has caused the "failure" of solar thru the years.  That being cheap(cost efficient) energy storage.

This will make some mad, but it is a true statement.  "Engineers are not trained to troubleshoot. They are trained to design a solution to a properly identified problem". 

So back to your requirements.(problem) Are you wanting to increase a zone or two, or five? I take you are not concerned about wind or an enclosure?

  If you want a zone or two and are not really concerned about wind than I think I have an option.  Proven thru centuries with one simple needed addition.

Wind is a somewhat easy solution by using placement and/if your "palm killing wind" comes from the same direction (north).

So minus a wind solution, are you still interested?

 

 

 

 

[amh]

Not an engineer, but this sounds like pissing in the wind. If I were to venture into this territory, I would use solar water heaters as apposed to solar powered resistance heating. Someone in atmospheric physics would be useful in figuring how much heat will be lost and if your plan is even feasible, especially in temperatures below 25F.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by amh

[WSimpson]

Sometimes some of the coldest temperatures also have  winds that come down from Canada . Often they are gusty and from different directions . That's why I enclose what I want to protect to keep that warm air in and the cold outside the protection . If it were just a radiational type cold a little heat might help from any source , but windy and cold is a different situation .

Good luck with your ideas .

Will

[LouisvillePalmer]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

I probably hold most of your requirements regarding the solar/palm/eng requirements. Well, concerning palms, I have more experience in killing.   

Your proposal would work but be very cost prohibitive.  It is what has caused the "failure" of solar thru the years.  That being cheap(cost efficient) energy storage.

This will make some mad, but it is a true statement.  "Engineers are not trained to troubleshoot. They are trained to design a solution to a properly identified problem". 

So back to your requirements.(problem) Are you wanting to increase a zone or two, or five? I take you are not concerned about wind or an enclosure?

  If you want a zone or two and are not really concerned about wind than I think I have an option.  Proven thru centuries with one simple needed addition.

Wind is a somewhat easy solution by using placement and/if your "palm killing wind" comes from the same direction (north).

So minus a wind solution, are you still interested?

 

 

 

 

Yes, lets hear it! I am in zone 6B, and just being able to push to zone 8A would be perfect as I could grow Trachycarpus Fortunei and Sabal Palmetto!

[Allen]

33 minutes ago, LouisvillePalmer said:

Yes, lets hear it! I am in zone 6B, and just being able to push to zone 8A would be perfect as I could grow Trachycarpus Fortunei and Sabal Palmetto!

You can push Trachy in zone 6b fine but you will need to cover or box in the palms approx. mid Dec-mid-late Feb. with a heat source.  Or be able to cover as needed.   There is no other solution.  In 6b almost all years will require protection at some point.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Allen

[Sabal King]

Wouldn't it just be easier to find a warmer place to live and not have to worry about this sort of stuff?  I got the hell out of IL to North Texas, and besides the other dozens of obvious reasons to leave, weather was just one of them.  Just my .02.

[LouisvillePalmer]

9 minutes ago, tlow said:

Wouldn't it just be easier to find a warmer place to live and not have to worry about this sort of stuff?  I got the hell out of IL to North Texas, and besides the other dozens of obvious reasons to leave, weather was just one of them.  Just my .02.

Wife doesn't want to leave her family.

[amh]

Have you considered building a conservatory, it would probably be cheaper than solar.

[teddytn]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

This will make some mad, but it is a true statement.  "Engineers are not trained to troubleshoot. They are trained to design a solution to a properly identified problem". 
 

This is very true!! Lol. I manage a steel fabrication shop. Trying to make engineers and architects “vision” come to life through a steel detailers interpretation drawn with material not readily available and with the machines we have is challenging to say the least lol

[teddytn]

As far as wind goes. I’ve heard in commercial fruit orchards and vineyards when it’s bloom time (early spring) and there’s a threat of heavy frost, they’ll set up huge fans and point them down the rows. Apparently just keeping the air moving will keep the air a few degrees warmer and prevent frost from settling on the flowers. 

[Silas_Sancona]

6 minutes ago, teddytn said:

As far as wind goes. I’ve heard in commercial fruit orchards and vineyards when it’s bloom time (early spring) and there’s a threat of heavy frost, they’ll set up huge fans and point them down the rows. Apparently just keeping the air moving will keep the air a few degrees warmer and prevent frost from settling on the flowers. 

Fans and Smudge Pots can work well for radiation- type freeze events.. where there is little -if any- wind.  Minimally effective ( at best ) for advective and windy frost/ freeze events..

Other possible issue w/ such an idea is sun angle/ hours the panels would need to fully charge is a bit limited the further north one goes.. Cloudy days, snow / ice covering the panel(s) could further limit any effectiveness. Not to say the technology isn't there to keep snow / ice off the panel(s), or that panel effectiveness won't become far more effective in the coming years.

Such an idea could work well for keeping greenhouses warm on the few nights it can get down to freezing here though. Know solar powered circulation / exhaust fans for the greenhouse are available.

[teddytn]

23 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Fans and Smudge Pots can work well for radiation- type freeze events.. where there is little -if any- wind.  Minimally effective ( at best ) for advective and windy frost/ freeze events..

Other possible issue w/ such an idea is sun angle/ hours the panels would need to fully charge is a bit limited the further north one goes.. Cloudy days, snow / ice covering the panel(s) could further limit any effectiveness. Not to say the technology isn't there to keep snow / ice off the panel(s), or that panel effectiveness won't become far more effective in the coming years.

Such an idea could work well for keeping greenhouses warm on the few nights it can get down to freezing here though. Know solar powered circulation / exhaust fans for the greenhouse are available.

Hmm speaking of greenhouses that reminded me. There’s more of a passive greenhouse approach either catching on or a resurgence. Anyway either thermal banking or running a geothermal heating/ cooling system is kind of the go to instead of powering heaters. Wonder if a solar powered fan would have enough ass to get enough air flow through a geothermal piping system???

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Hmm speaking of greenhouses that reminded me. There’s more of a passive greenhouse approach either catching on or a resurgence. Anyway either thermal banking or running a geothermal heating/ cooling system is kind of the go to instead of powering heaters. Wonder if a solar powered fan would have enough ass to get enough air flow through a geothermal piping system???

Think it would depend on how large of a space you have..  and how many panels it would take to power that fan/ fans.. Imagine running Geo thermal would be expensive.

Thermal Banking could work also.. Just not sure how effective it would be in areas where it goes below 15F fairly often during the winter.

[Palmarum]

Echoing on the comments of those above, you would need a way to contain the heated air or it won't work. Weather, cloud cover, etc. will hamper it all. Like mentioned above, you would need a weather proof, greenhouse-type structure, plus the solar panel requirement for each unit would be high.

I have seen hot water pumped through 'radiator' type devices to heat trees under temporary poly houses; with a central water heater and cold water return tank. Water then fed back to the water heater in a cycle. It worked, but was not terribly efficient, even over a short period of usage.

Ryan

[teddytn]

@LouisvillePalmer If I was doing this, I would start by building a mock up and start playing with the design of the frame and try that out. This would be more in my lane. I have almost zero experience with solar. 

***Most of my ramblings are aimed at doing this with minimal metal working tools***
Brainstorming on my drive home about your idea, 2 different approaches came to mind. 

1st a trunk stand to hold solar panels, fan/ heater. You could move this up or down the trunk. I would make this one out of aluminum thin gauge square tube or thin gauge round tube/ pipe if I was doing this in my shop. For personal garage/ hobby shop think galvanized electrical conduit and a handheld conduit bender. That, an angle grinder, a drill and a bunch of different size pipe clamps and you could make a mock up in an afternoon for sure with a visit to a big box store. I would drill through holes in the perimeter of the tube and run a bolt or threaded rod with stop nuts to attach to the trunk (think a Christmas tree stand). Build it in 2 c shaped halves. Hinge on one side and bolt or pin shut on the other. You could easily just hammer the ends flat, bend 90 degrees with pliers and drill a through hole to bolt no problem. Use adjustable pipe clamps or heavy zip ties to attach fans/ solar panels/ mock up panel made out of whatever you want to the conduit perimeter. 

2nd a ground stand. In the shop I would make this out of steel and galvanize it or powder coat the frame. Again use square or round tube. Would use steel for the weight, to be stable around the trunk without needing to be staked (root damage, and the effect of wicking cold down into the ground if made out of metal). Making a 3 dimensional tube frame would be easy if you had a welder, a little harder with the conduit, have to split the ends wrap around 90 degree adjacent conduit and through drill and bolt. Doable though. You can always build this out of wood obviously if that’s more up your alley. I would build in a c shape to fit around the trunk of the palm and would be easy to add a cage enclosure like @Allen shows in his palm protection thread. 
Frame is the easy part. I don’t have much experience with solar, but both options may need to be hard wired into a pretty sizable roof mounted solar panel linked a battery. Like others have mentioned you would need to store energy for use to keep running through the night and on cloudy/ overcast days. It is the future lol 2022 sounds crazy to me. There may have been advances is solar far past my grasp that you could make a freestanding unit with smaller solar panels arranged around the perimeter of each of these, but still would need a battery I would think. I definitely do know that a small 110 space heater with fan draws a lot of power. Used one in my unheated plant room over the winter on the coldest nights and for a few weeks straight when we were below freezing or in the 30’s/ low 40’s for highs outside. Here’s some scribblings below. Fairly self explanatory. Dot in the ground stand just shows where the trunk of the palm would be looking down from above. Mount 3 or 4 heater/ fans around the perimeter. If you could power it I can see it working. 

[Palmlex]

I love the creativity in this thread. I feel like we're pretty close to having easier care for palms, but we're not quite there yet. The right person didn't come up with the right idea or maybe we just haven't found it yet. 

I'd love to be able to easily push 2 zones for my palms (from 7 to 9).

@teddytn Nice design! Although I believe that there are still 2 pretty large issues that any design will face.

1. First issue is the lack of sunlight in winter. You would need around 100W to heat up a decently sized palm for, say 15h, that means you need 1500Wh per 24h.  Since in winter the day is way shorter than the night, you'd only have around 9h (at 40-45 degrees latitude) of daylight. That means you'd need to generate 1500W in 9h, so around 170W per hour, not even factoring losses. If we're to add those losses in, we'd probably be looking at an input of over 200-230W from our solar panel. For 200W of power you'd need a very large solar panel (if not an array) if your winters are overcast (mine kind of are...)
2. Second issue would be storing this power. A reasonably sized battery is not difficult to get, but where do you store it? Do you store it near the palm? That would be a very humid environment, not ideal for a battery at all. Depending on the temperature the battery is stored at, its capacity can even drop to half or less, so even more losses. You also likely can't store the battery inside the house, because if you need lots of wire length from the solar panel to the battery and back to the palm, given this is low voltage DC, the losses would be another 20%/10 feet of wire each way, so 40% both ways. An additional problem is that 12V DC doesn't power much stuff, so it might be completely useless, unless converted to AC (even more losses).

All in all, it sounds very expensive, impractical and could even be dangerous (the electrical stuff) if not done by a qualified person. I don't recommend anyone tries to DIY this stuff because this would need a lot of current and if there's any issue with the system, it could cause an electrical fire. Also, batteries are no joke...

I feel like solar heated water is a way better idea, since it seems safer and way more efficient, but you have to keep the water from freezing, which will likely be impossible.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Palmlex

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Palmlex said:

All in all, it sounds very expensive, impractical and could even be dangerous (the electrical stuff) if not done by a qualified person. I don't recommend anyone tries to DIY this stuff because this would need a lot of current and if there's any issue with the system, it could cause an electrical fire. Also, batteries are no joke...

It's not complicated you can gain 1+ zone with a frost cover type setup and no box for about $40 per palm and it can be installed/removed in about 15 minutes.

[Palmlex]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

It's not complicated you can gain 1+ zone with a frost cover type setup and no box for about $40 per palm and it can be installed/removed in about 15 minutes.

Yeah, it's not very difficult to wrap them in something that generates heat, but ideally I would like to have a "self sustaining" enclosure that needs no power input from me. I'm not talking about solar panels here, because those would likely not work.

What I've done this past winter is a rudimentary variant of the solar water heater idea.  And it did work, but the winter was pretty mild with a low of only around -9C/16F. My Washingtonia Robusta and Phoenix Canariensis look like they never even gone through a winter. Not even leaf spotting. What I've done was insulate them hardcore, so with 4'' thick expanded polystyrene sheets (extruded polystyrene like styrofoam is way more expensive and I could only find 2'' thick) on 4 sides and a clear polycarbonate sheet on the southern side. Then I placed around 28 gallons of water in jugs around each of the palms. I didn't have any black jugs, so I just put them in black plastic bags. I figure black jugs would absorb the sun's radiation better than mine, so that could be an improvement for next winter. The more water the better, but I just used the jugs that I had.

With this setup, the temperature inside the enclosures never dropped below 0.6C/33F and that was after a cloudy day. The greatest temperature difference I've measured (I couldn't measure the absolute low...) was one morning when outside was -8C/17F and in the palm enclosures it was 1.5C/35F. The sunniest it is during the day, the more heat will be released during the night, that will keep temperatures higher. I basically had an 8b winter, but the palms felt a 10a winter.

This required no heat input from me. Obviously, this solution has drawbacks. One is that it can't handle infinite cold or long periods of overcast skies. I'd say -15C/5F outside is probably close to the limit for these 2 palms. It's also more expensive and difficult to build. The other disadvantage is that you need to make sure to leave an air gap in warmer spells, because during the day your palms could probably cook. One very sunny day they were completely sealed and I've measured close to 43C/110F inside. They didn't seem to mind that temperature at all though. They even opened a frond while in there.

Advantages? Well, no power bill, no cords ran around the yard; it could, in theory, be as far from the house as you want, no worrying about power outages, devices malfunctioning or rodents chewing on wires.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Palmlex

[jwitt]

The power of latent heat! If only the ancients knew.

 

Where was most of your cost incurred? 

I think the original poster was trying to "engineer" something not requiring an enclosure.

I believe you are on to the solution by using water.  If only we could tie in that large thing in the sky!

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by jwitt

[teddytn]

24 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

Yeah, it's not very difficult to wrap them in something that generates heat, but ideally I would like to have a "self sustaining" enclosure that needs no power input from me. I'm not talking about solar panels here, because those would likely not work.

What I've done this past winter is a rudimentary variant of the solar water heater idea.  And it did work, but the winter was pretty mild with a low of only around -9C/16F. My Washingtonia Robusta and Phoenix Canariensis look like they never even gone through a winter. Not even leaf spotting. What I've done was insulate them hardcore, so with 4'' thick expanded polystyrene sheets (extruded polystyrene like styrofoam is way more expensive and I could only find 2'' thick) on 4 sides and a clear polycarbonate sheet on the southern side. Then I placed around 28 gallons of water in jugs around each of the palms. I didn't have any black jugs, so I just put them in black plastic bags. I figure black jugs would absorb the sun's radiation better than mine, so that could be an improvement for next winter. The more water the better, but I just used the jugs that I had.

With this setup, the temperature inside the enclosures never dropped below 0.6C/33F and that was after a cloudy day. The greatest temperature difference I've measured (I couldn't measure the absolute low...) was one morning when outside was -8C/17F and in the palm enclosures it was 1.5C/35F. The sunniest it is during the day, the more heat will be released during the night, that will keep temperatures higher. I basically had an 8b winter, but the palms felt a 10a winter.

This required no heat input from me. Obviously, this solution has drawbacks. One is that it can't handle infinite cold or long periods of overcast skies. I'd say -15C/5F outside is probably close to the limit for these 2 palms. It's also more expensive and difficult to build. The other disadvantage is that you need to make sure to leave an air gap in warmer spells, because during the day your palms could probably cook. One very sunny day they were completely sealed and I've measured close to 43C/110F inside. They didn't seem to mind that temperature at all though. They even opened a frond while in there.

Advantages? Well, no power bill, no cords ran around the yard; it could, in theory, be as far from the house as you want, no worrying about power outages, devices malfunctioning or rodents chewing on wires.

This is the approach with passive greenhouses, thermal banking. Paint the jugs with black spray paint. Downside is you need sun to recharge the the jugs/ air in the enclosure. If you go through an extended cold spell with overcast/ cloudy skies the temperature in the enclosure will drop to outside temperature +5f give or take a few degrees. So if the palms have been enjoying a balmy winter in the enclosure and aren’t technically hardened off for cold, then the temps don’t rise in the enclosure above freezing for a few days they would be in big trouble especially if they were growing. Not saying it’s a bad idea, just may need a back up plan just in case all hell broke loose with the weather. 

[jwitt]

I think I even heard atmospheric physics mentioned in an earlier post. 

A person with this background if truthful would would say something like as air becomes warmer it holds more water than cold air. And may even say global warming would increase moisture in the atmosphere. 

I wonder if we had droughts during the mini ice age.  I wonder what drove the Anasazi to leave Chaco canyon, and many other civilizations around the same time.

Seem to be having droughts currently and palmageddons going on in these parts.  

Just curious what happened to the term global warming. Seems to be the ultimate thing we need for our palms that we are seeking.

[Palmlex]

18 minutes ago, jwitt said:

The power of latent heat! If only the ancients knew.

 

Where was most of your cost incurred? 

I would say half the cost was the insulation and half was the wood frame. They're both pretty expensive these days.

 

18 minutes ago, jwitt said:

I think the original poster was trying to "engineer" something not requiring an enclosure.

I believe you are on to the solution by using water.  If only we could tie in that large thing in the sky!

Considering that I've insulated the thing as much as the average house is insulated here (excluding the brick, of course), I'd say without proper insulation this method of harnessing solar power would be completely useless.

[jwitt]

7 minutes ago, teddytn said:

This is the approach with passive greenhouses, thermal banking. Paint the jugs with black spray paint. Downside is you need sun to recharge the the jugs/ air in the enclosure. If you go through an extended cold spell with overcast/ cloudy skies the temperature in the enclosure will drop to outside temperature +5f give or take a few degrees. So if the palms have been enjoying a balmy winter in the enclosure and aren’t technically hardened off for cold, then the temps don’t rise in the enclosure above freezing for a few days they would be in big trouble especially if they were growing. Not saying it’s a bad idea, just may need a back up plan just in case all hell broke loose with the weather. 

Something to the effect of a trombe wall. 

[Palmlex]

15 minutes ago, teddytn said:

This is the approach with passive greenhouses, thermal banking. Paint the jugs with black spray paint. Downside is you need sun to recharge the the jugs/ air in the enclosure. If you go through an extended cold spell with overcast/ cloudy skies the temperature in the enclosure will drop to outside temperature +5f give or take a few degrees. So if the palms have been enjoying a balmy winter in the enclosure and aren’t technically hardened off for cold, then the temps don’t rise in the enclosure above freezing for a few days they would be in big trouble especially if they were growing. Not saying it’s a bad idea, just may need a back up plan just in case all hell broke loose with the weather. 

The back up plan was to fill the jugs with hot water in case terrible weather came. I actually slightly tested this. I've only replaced 2 out of the 28 gallons of that water with hot water on one night and that pushed the difference +5F compared to the previous night (both days were cloudy, so no sun input).

Edited April 8, 2022 by Palmlex

[jwitt]

48 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

Yeah, it's not very difficult to wrap them in something that generates heat, but ideally I would like to have a "self sustaining" enclosure that needs no power input from me. I'm not talking about solar panels here, because those would likely not work.

What I've done this past winter is a rudimentary variant of the solar water heater idea.  And it did work, but the winter was pretty mild with a low of only around -9C/16F. My Washingtonia Robusta and Phoenix Canariensis look like they never even gone through a winter. Not even leaf spotting. What I've done was insulate them hardcore, so with 4'' thick expanded polystyrene sheets (extruded polystyrene like styrofoam is way more expensive and I could only find 2'' thick) on 4 sides and a clear polycarbonate sheet on the southern side. Then I placed around 28 gallons of water in jugs around each of the palms. I didn't have any black jugs, so I just put them in black plastic bags. I figure black jugs would absorb the sun's radiation better than mine, so that could be an improvement for next winter. The more water the better, but I just used the jugs that I had.

With this setup, the temperature inside the enclosures never dropped below 0.6C/33F and that was after a cloudy day. The greatest temperature difference I've measured (I couldn't measure the absolute low...) was one morning when outside was -8C/17F and in the palm enclosures it was 1.5C/35F. The sunniest it is during the day, the more heat will be released during the night, that will keep temperatures higher. I basically had an 8b winter, but the palms felt a 10a winter.

This required no heat input from me. Obviously, this solution has drawbacks. One is that it can't handle infinite cold or long periods of overcast skies. I'd say -15C/5F outside is probably close to the limit for these 2 palms. It's also more expensive and difficult to build. The other disadvantage is that you need to make sure to leave an air gap in warmer spells, because during the day your palms could probably cook. One very sunny day they were completely sealed and I've measured close to 43C/110F inside. They didn't seem to mind that temperature at all though. They even opened a frond while in there.

Advantages? Well, no power bill, no cords ran around the yard; it could, in theory, be as far from the house as you want, no worrying about power outages, devices malfunctioning or rodents chewing on wires.

I wonder if we could "increase" the solar and even lose the enclosure.?

 

Somehow, someway...

[Allen]

47 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

Advantages? Well, no power bill, 

Just for fun because I have heard people before (Not in this thread) arguing how much power it takes to heat palms.  I guessed my cost to heat a palm with 80 watts.  I allowed 30 days at 5 hours per day and the result is $1.65 for here.  

[Palmlex]

Just now, jwitt said:

I wonder if we could "increase" the solar and even lose the enclosure.?

 

Somehow, someway...

I dabbled into something like this too. At first I tried having 2 clear walls instead of one, for more solar input.

Turns out the loss in insulation can't be compensated by the extra sun during the day.

[jwitt]

2 minutes ago, Allen said:

Just for fun because I have heard people before (Not in this thread) arguing how much power it takes to heat palms.  I guessed my cost to heat a palm with 80 watts.  I allowed 30 days at 5 hours per day and the result is $1.65 for here.  

So 80 watts =272 btu's and 1 lb of water holds 1 btu for every 1 degree fahrenheit rise. And if we throw in that latent heat of 144btu's(1#water going from water to ice and remaining 32f).  

 

We need 2# of water 

More might even be better.

8.3 LBS=1gallon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Palmlex]

7 minutes ago, Allen said:

Just for fun because I have heard people before (Not in this thread) arguing how much power it takes to heat palms.  I guessed my cost to heat a palm with 80 watts.  I allowed 30 days at 5 hours per day and the result is $1.65 for here.  

I doubt 80W with no box would do much here in a bad winter. I'm about 10 degrees more to the north compared to your location. Either way, the same power would probably be around $2.8 here.

[jwitt]

11 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

I dabbled into something like this too. At first I tried having 2 clear walls instead of one, for more solar input.

Turns out the loss in insulation can't be compensated by the extra sun during the day.

I see your point. 

[Palmlex]

8 minutes ago, jwitt said:

So 80 watts =272 btu's and 1 lb of water holds 1 btu for every 1 degree fahrenheit rise. And if we throw in that latent heat of 144btu's(1#water going from water to ice and remaining 32f).  

 

We need 2# of water 

More might even be better.

8.3 LBS=1gallon

Water is pretty amazing at storing heat. 22lbs of water, so around 2.6 gal or 10 liters of water at 140F/60C can give off 80W of heat for 8h if it cools to 41F/5C during that time.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Palmlex

[Will]

Since that setup would be most usefull in winter and the sun in winter stand lower, the solar panel would lose a lot of its potential. I also think without a box around the palm a warm air blower wouldnt do much. Also a big air blower wouldn't do much. 

But if you still wanna find a solution , I would focus making the setup without a solar panel and if you found a solution to the warming problem, add a solar panel afterwards. The things is also, since its the coldest in the night, the solar panel wouldn't do anything. 

[Allen]

11 minutes ago, jwitt said:

So 80 watts =272 btu's and 1 lb of water holds 1 btu for every 1 degree fahrenheit rise. And if we throw in that latent heat of 144btu's(1#water going from water to ice and remaining 32f).  

We need 2# of water 

More might even be better.

8.3 LBS=1gallon

Does the water equally distribute heat gently around the entire palm and into the spear area like a string of mini Christmas light do when you wrap them around the palm and trap the heat with a wrap?  The lights then only have to heat the area immediately around the palm instead of a whole box?  I advise anyone not to use boxes with clear panels.  It is done sometimes carefully in European areas and Canadian areas.  For me it's crazy as we can hit 70-80F a day or two after a freeze and the box temp swings would be wild.  

[teddytn]

10 minutes ago, Allen said:

Does the water equally distribute heat gently around the entire palm and into the spear area like a string of mini Christmas light do when you wrap them around the palm and trap the heat with a wrap?  The lights then only have to heat the area immediately around the palm instead of a whole box?  I advise anyone not to use boxes with clear panels.  It is done sometimes carefully in European areas and Canadian areas.  For me it's crazy as we can hit 70-80F a day or two after a freeze and the box temp swings would be wild.  

My first enclosure I showed you before, that’s exactly what happened I cooked the palms during the day and froze them at night. (Uninsulated enclosure with clear panels on roof and south facing walls). On a 40 degree day full sun in an enclosure is amazing. On a 70 degree day temps inside  can get dangerously high. Would have to stay at home to vent or seal the enclosure based on the weather. Go down to Hewitts on a sunny winter day and they have to run exhaust fans with the doors open on the greenhouses so the plants don’t cook, and that’s with a shade cloth over the plastic. 

[jwitt]

16 minutes ago, Allen said:

Does the water equally distribute heat gently around the entire palm and into the spear area like a string of mini Christmas light do when you wrap them around the palm and trap the heat with a wrap?  The lights then only have to heat the area immediately around the palm instead of a whole box?  I advise anyone not to use boxes with clear panels.  It is done sometimes carefully in European areas and Canadian areas.  For me it's crazy as we can hit 70-80F a day or two after a freeze and the box temp swings would be wild.  

 

17 minutes ago, Allen said:

Does the water equally distribute heat gently around the entire palm and into the spear area like a string of mini Christmas light do when you wrap them around the palm and trap the heat with a wrap?  The lights then only have to heat the area immediately around the palm instead of a whole box?  I advise anyone not to use boxes with clear panels.  It is done sometimes carefully in European areas and Canadian areas.  For me it's crazy as we can hit 70-80F a day or two after a freeze and the box temp swings would be wild.  

Got to be open minded here. No enclosures. 

Not needed. 

That also ensures no cooking on warm days.

We are talking a trachy in Louisville, not a coconut.

 

 

 

[Allen]

5 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Got to be open minded here. No enclosures. 

Not needed. 

That also ensures no cooking on warm days.

We are talking a trachy in Louisville, not a coconut.

If a enclosure is not needed then what is your method of protecting a palm in Louisville?  A real tried and tested one?

[jwitt]

Our native people were more advanced than we are concerning this issue. 

In fact some of the first European explorers in this country wintered with a people due to this knowledge 6 miles from my house. It made them feel less native, per se. 

All because the wore cotton garments.

How the heck do you even grow cotton in a locale with an average 165 day growing season?