native sabal in texas (praha sabal)

[Kentuckypalms]

These were found in fayette county

Anyone ever hear of Praha Sabal. Some research was don on it by ut Austin.

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/PrahaPalmID.html

 

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Praha.hotel

Edited February 23, 2022 by Centraltxpalm

[Austinpalm]

1 hour ago, Centraltxpalm said:

These were found in fayette county

Anyone ever hear of Praha Sabal. Some research was don on it by ut Austin.

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/PrahaPalmID.html

 

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Praha.hotel

Went by and saw them several years ago.  Collected a very few seeds that did nothing.  They were old and probably not viable.  Interesting palms.  I was under the impression they were Sabal palmetto brought in from New Orleans, many many many moons ago.  Bob Harms, the gentleman who wrote the article passed away several years ago.  Have not heard anything else about them.

[Collectorpalms]

6 minutes ago, Austinpalm said:

Went by and saw them several years ago.  Collected a very few seeds that did nothing.  They were old and probably not viable.  Interesting palms.  I was under the impression they were Sabal palmetto brought in from New Orleans, many many many moons ago.  Bob Harms, the gentleman who wrote the article passed away several years ago.  Have not heard anything else about them.

I saw them in person a few years ago. They are at the St Mary’s Church. To me this was good timing, google updated streetview after the freeze. 
A couple at the church, a couple across the street, and then some more that spring up in a field ( before freeze). 
 

My impression was they were planted at the church and have since spread by birds. Very common. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

Bob Harms' article on Sabal × brazoriensis references this Sabal sps. in Fayette County; namely, Bob Harms states that, "The possibility of a connection with the wild Sabal population in Fayette County - never studied - cannot be ruled out."

http://w3.biosci.utexas.edu/prc/Sabal/Brazoria.html

[GoatLockerGuns]

I just read this section of the Bob Harms article posted by @Centraltxpalm above:

"The robust spread (or escape) of the Praha palms is not matched by S. palmetto elsewhere in Texas, despite its widespread use for landscaping, as noted by Texas palm authority Landon Lockett (personal communication) (although Lockett feels that the Praha palms are probably S. palmetto): This [the Praha palmetto population] is the only case I know of S. palmetto escaping into the wild in Texas. Normally it doesn't escape into the wild. Although I've never investigated the matter I have heard that S. palmetto is commonly dug up in Florida and shipped to Texas."

This Mr. Landon Lockett must have never road his bike along the Salado Creek Greenway in San Antonio.  There are what I believe to be "escaped" Sabal sps. specimens all along the trail/creek east of Walker Ranch Park.  Their hap-hazard growth would suggest naturalization vice intentional plantings.  In particular, there are very noticeable specimens on the leg between Jack White Trailhead and South Side Lions Park.  I am pretty sure they are not Sabal minor, as there are many large specimens (some with or without short trunks) with no evidence of inflorescence (large/mature Sabal minor should produce inflorescence; while Sabal palmetto/Sabal mexicana/other juvenile trunking Sabal sps. specimens that have yet to produce trunks would probably not produce inflorescence until older).  Also, the fronds are more costapalmate than what you would expect to find with Sabal minor.  My assumption is that they are "escaped" Sabal palmetto specimens from residential and commercial plantings found in the area (i.e., deposited by birds, small mammals, wind, etc.).

[Austinpalm]

38 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

This Mr. Landon Lockett must have never road his bike along the Salado Creek Greenway in San Antonio.  There are what I believe to be "escaped" Sabal sps. specimens all along the trail/creek east of Walker Ranch Park.  Their hap-hazard growth would suggest naturalization vice intentional plantings.  In particular, there are very noticeable specimens on the leg between Jack White Trailhead and South Side Lions Park.  I am pretty sure they are not Sabal minor, as there are many large specimens (some with or without short trunks) with no evidence of inflorescence (large/mature Sabal minor should produce inflorescence; while Sabal palmetto/Sabal mexicana/other juvenile trunking Sabal sps. specimens that have yet to produce trunks would probably not produce inflorescence until older).  Also, the fronds are more costapalmate than what you would expect to find with Sabal minor.  My assumption is that they are "escaped" Sabal palmetto specimens from residential and commercial plantings found in the area (i.e., deposited by birds, small mammals, wind, etc.).

I have never been to the Salado Creek Greenway.  Have visited many other places in San Antonio and noticed S. mexicana naturalizing in many locations.  Even in Austin.  IMO I expect that most/all naturalizing Sabals in San Antonio are S. mexicana. I believe Mr. Lockett wrote an article about S. mexicana and its historical range and suggested that S. mexicana was native to the headwaters of the San Antonio river.  I have never researched beyond that, but there are several S. mexicana near the SA zoo and Incarnate Word University which I believe are near the headwaters of the San Antonio River.  So at least seems plausible to me.  But who knows what exactly was there when Europeans first laid eyes on it.  

Just a personal opinion,  but I generally agree with the thought of S. palmetto rarely or not naturalizing in most of Texas.  I do see S. palmetto planted occasionally in Central and South Texas, but have yet to notice them naturalizing.  Perhaps I just missed it. The only places I have seen it occur are near Houston, where very few S. mexicana occur or are planted and S. palmetto is used more often.  I think it is certainly possible that S. palmetto had a very small disjunct population in SE Texas as the DNA results of S. brazoriensis hinted at the possiblity that it is a hybrid of S minor and S. palmetto.  It would be cool if Texas had another native palm species to go along with the currently known 3 sabal species.  Would really love it if some one found a small population of needle palm in the Big Thicket or somewhere else in east Texas.  But unlikely to happen.

[GoatLockerGuns]

17 minutes ago, Austinpalm said:

Have visited many other places in San Antonio and noticed S. mexicana naturalizing in many locations

What makes you think they are Sabal mexicana? In other words, how are you able to distinguish juvenile Sabal mexicana from juvenile Sabal palmetto?  In my experience, the seeds are normally larger, and the trunks fatter, on Sabal mexicana when mature.  I have seen plenty of mature Sabal sps. in San Antonio with thin trucks and small seeds.  Since San Antonio is not the natural range of Sabal mexicana, I am assuming these are Sabal palmetto transplants from Florida (or elsewhere) as Mr. Lockett/Mr. Harms also suggest.  But what evidence do use use for young naturalized Sabal sps. observed (which I imagine would be the majority of naturalized Sabal sps. from ornamental plantings in this area, given the slow growth rate of these Sabal sps.)?

[Austinpalm]

14 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

What makes you think they are Sabal mexicana? In other words, how are you able to distinguish juvenile Sabal mexicana from juvenile Sabal palmetto?  In my experience, the seeds are normally larger, and the trunks fatter, on Sabal mexicana when mature.  I have seen plenty of mature Sabal sps. in San Antonio with thin trucks and small seeds.  Since San Antonio is not the natural range of Sabal mexicana, I am assuming these are Sabal palmetto transplants from Florida (or elsewhere) as Mr. Lockett/Mr. Harms also suggest.  But what evidence do use use for young naturalized Sabal sps. observed (which I imagine would be the majority of naturalized Sabal sps. from ornamental plantings in this area, given the slow growth rate of these Sabal sps.)?

It is kind of a working theory. In my opinion, juvenile S. palmetto appear weaker/more stunted in Central Texas than similar sized S. mexicana do.  I suppose that some could be juvenile S. palmetto, but in my experience in San Antonio, there are few mature S. palmetto to produce seed.  On the other hand, there are many S. mexicana.  Additionally, I think it is reasonable to expect that any S. palmetto that are naturalizing would do it near the parent plants (in residential areas) not in a greenbelt.  I obviously cannot say that it is impossible for S. palmetto seed to get to greenbelts and such, but I think it happens much less that it does for S. mexicana which probably already occur in the greenbelt.  Additionally, S. mexicana thrives or survives in most environments around San Antonio.  S. palmetto would prefer a little more rain and maybe less alkaline soils to thrive and so is more likely to be encountered around human habitation in San Antonio.  I am certain that there exists a S. palmetto around San Antonio that breaks all of the generalities I have stated  But in general, I think they hold true.  And finally, in my opinion, San Antonio likely was within or very near the native range of S. mexicana. Nothing to back that up with other than Mr. Lockes writing and the fact that S. mexicana is known to be native to locations less than 200 miles to the southeast along the coast.  The fact that it naturalizes so easily in the area and has generally withstood all winters in the area since San Antonio was first settled, cause me to believe its natural occurrence in the area is a good possibility.  Just an opinion though  Not enough biological data was captured in Texas prior to statehood.  

[GoatLockerGuns]

It would seem both our theories are anecdotal, as well as working (disclaimer: I am no expert on the subject, and would to love hear compelling evidence proving me wrong).  I respect your working theory, and it very well may be correct; however, I just as respectfully disagree based on my own observations/opinions.  I think the "idea" of Sabal mexicana being planted all over San Antonio/Central Texas (it is, after all, the Texas Palmetto) is more appealing than what I believe to be the "reality" of ornamental Sabal sps. plantings in these areas (i.e., that Sabal palmetto is more widely available in the nursery/stock business, and more likely to be planted here and elsewhere).  I never discount the modem human need for instant gratification, and readily available mature Sabal palmettos (from Florida or wherever) can easily meet that need.  Has there been a concerted push/effort to plant Sabal mexicana in Texas residential and commercial settings of late? Yes, I believe so.  Are they the predominate species here?  Honestly, I really do not know; but, I would suspect no based on the thin trucks and small seeds I often observe on many mature Sabal sps. here.  Also, I have not really seen any published papers supporting the natural habitat of Sabal mexicana being this far north (although, I would love to find one).  Most data I have seen suggests the northern natural habitat limit of Sabal mexicana somewhere around the Rio Grande Valley.  According to Johnson & MacKnight, its habitat was reported to extend within 80 miles of the Rio Grande (Sabal Palm Preserve, Palms 64(3), 2020). That is not to say I have not found what I believe to be Sabal mexicana planted here (mostly planted as ornamentals).  Below is an old post I made of what I believed (and still believe) to be Sabal mexicana growing on Lackland AFB, and the seed I procured/grew from it (BTW...the palm I grew from that seed is still planted on my property to this day, and survived last February's freeze event with no protection and no damage).

I know @Fusca also has some "go-to" local Sabal mexicana specimens that he pulls seeds from.  Also you note that:

1 hour ago, Austinpalm said:

I think it is reasonable to expect that any S. palmetto that are naturalizing would do it near the parent plants (in residential areas) not in a greenbelt. 

However, I have observed many residential and commercial plantings of Sabal sps. on properties surrounding these areas of the Salado Creek Greenway.  I am sure some (if not many) are Sabal palmetto plantings, and I suspect these are the parents of the Sabal sps. I am seeing along the Greenway.  It also follows a water course (i.e., Salado Creek); much of which has water year round (most years anyway).  This may have something to do with the abundance of naturalized Sabal sps. growing along the Greenway.

Bottom line is: I actually hope you are correct, and Sabal mexicana is growing wild and free all over Central Texas.  I just have not personally found compelling evidence to support such a generalization.  I also love discussions like this.  This is why I joined Palmtalk to begin with.  The Praha Palmetto that originally prompted this post fascinates me as well, and I really wish a in depth study could be conducted/funded (like the one conducted for Sabal x brazoriensis by Goldman, Klooster, Griffith, Fay and Chase in 2011).

 

[Austinpalm]

Attached is a paper describing the likelihood of Sabal mexicana occurring north of the Rio Grande.Lockett & Read 1990.pdf

[hbernstein]

More anecdotal discussion: I once worked with the eminent palm biologist, Larry Noblick. He was of the opinion that any S. palmetto found west of a certain coastal area of the Florida Panhandle were due to human introductions, not naturally occurring populations. Many non-coastal Sabal palmetto populations in Northern Florida had the same type of origination.

[GoatLockerGuns]

1 hour ago, Austinpalm said:

Attached is a paper describing the likelihood of Sabal mexicana occurring north of the Rio Grande.

Yep, I have read that paper before.  Great info and very compelling.  I do not believe it has been settled that those were Sabal mexicana in Victoria though, or if they were, that they were part of the natural habitat extent (or just ornamental escapees).  There have been other posts about naturalized Sabal sps. (possibly Sabal mexicana) here on Palmtalk before.  This is one I recall from a few years back:

I went ahead and attached a bunch of pictures I took of the naturalized Sabal sps. in question along that section of the Salado Creek Greenway.  These were all taken between McAllister Park and Brook Army Medical Center on January 31, 2021 (right before the Freeze event here).  I really wish I had gotten closer to some of these, and taken better pictures of the fronds (I was on a bike ride with friends at the time).  I am sure there will be all kinds of opinions about what these are.

 

 

[GoatLockerGuns]

1 hour ago, hbernstein said:

I once worked with the eminent palm biologist, Larry Noblick.

Larry Noblick is somewhat of a rock star in palm enthusiast circles. He co-wrote the paper that identified Sabal antillensis as a new species as I recall.

29201-98955-1-PB.pdf

[Austinpalm]

4 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Larry Noblick is somewhat of a rock star in palm enthusiast circles. He co-wrote the paper that identified Sabal antillensis as a new species as I recall.

29201-98955-1-PB.pdf 5.31 MB · 3 downloads

Those are very cool palms.  I actually vacationed in Curacao just to see the palms.  Neat hike.  Bring plenty of water.  It get hot and there is none to be found nearby.

[Xenon]

There are tons of naturalized Sabal along the freeway medians and nearby parking lots in west Houston along I-10 near the SH 99 interchange. The largest are 5'-6' overall and its obvious the city decided to keep them along with the volunteer trunking Washingtonia (which are much less abundant overall). There are sections that are just littered with volunteer Sabal! Intentional mass plantings of both Sabal mexicana and Sabal palmetto exist on both sides of the freeway. 

[teddytn]

9 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Yep, I have read that paper before.  Great info and very compelling.  I do not believe it has been settled that those were Sabal mexicana in Victoria though, or if they were, that they were part of the natural habitat extent (or just ornamental escapees).  There have been other posts about naturalized Sabal sps. (possibly Sabal mexicana) here on Palmtalk before.  This is one I recall from a few years back:

I went ahead and attached a bunch of pictures I took of the naturalized Sabal sps. in question along that section of the Salado Creek Greenway.  These were all taken between McAllister Park and Brook Army Medical Center on January 31, 2021 (right before the Freeze event here).  I really wish I had gotten closer to some of these, and taken better pictures of the fronds (I was on a bike ride with friends at the time).  I am sure there will be all kinds of opinions about what these are.

 

 

I’ll bite here. The palms with really long petioles with barely no trunk in my opinion are mexicana. I’ve seen some in person similar to that size and talked to the guy that planted them from seed. Even palmettos growing in dense shade don’t have a crown that looks like that. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

15 hours ago, teddytn said:

The palms with really long petioles with barely no trunk in my opinion are mexicana.

Yeah, I have read that long petioles, as well as lighter green frond appearance, are identifiers for Sabal mexicana.  I am just not enough of an expert to definitively say that is what they are.  Also, I believe there is some infra specific variability within the various species as well (i.e., shade grown vs full sun, darker vs lighter colorization, etc.).  I usually look at seed size (once mature enough to produce) before I personally make my own determination.  For example, I picked some seeds off of a local mature Sabal sps, (commercial planting) growing at a Taco Cabana on Southcross Road (https://goo.gl/maps/khRmKYnMaYsfUVKV8) last night, and compared them with some other local mature Sabal sps. seeds gathered from the Pasha Restaurant on Wurzbach Road (https://goo.gl/maps/WphiL9jJQ2ttido28) that I have been germinating since December of 2021 (see image below).

The Southcross Sabal sps. seed is on the left (as you face the picture), and the germinated Wurzbach Sabal sps. seed is on the right (as you face the picture).  Both mature palms looked fairly identical at first glance; however, the Southcross Sabal sps. had much smaller seeds. I believe the Southcross Sabal sps. is Sabal palmetto, and the Wurzbach Sabal sps. is Sabal mexicana.  I know its purely anecdotal, but it is the only way I know of to "easily" tell them apart.  When I see Sabal sps. planted around here, the first thing I look for is seed drupes.  The ones that I believe to be Sabal mexicana have drupes that look like bunches of grapes (they are that big).  When I observe Sabal sps. planted in commercial or residential settings around here, I typically find (i.e., more often than not) Sabal sps. that produce drupes with smaller seeds.  Right or wrong, I consider them to be Sabal palmetto.  Obviously, I find Sabal sps. with large seed drupes as well (as evidenced in the picture); however, my personal observations are that these are less common (at least in the San Antonio area).  I will be the first to admit that I have not found every Sabal sps. around here, nor have I been able to observe the drupes on every mature Sabal sps. around here; therefore, my "analysis" is based solely on my own biased observation sampling.

These juvenile Sabal sps. along the Salado Creek Greenway may very well be Sabal mexicana (and I suspect at least some are).  I have just seen how easy it is to germinate both Sabal mexicana and Sabal palmetto seeds, and I have a hard time believing that Sabal palmetto is so less likely to "escape" and naturalize outside it's reported native range than Sabal mexicana is (particularly when the germination/growing conditions are right).  Also, I have seed grown specimens of both Sabal palmetto and Sabal mexicana (both juveniles) that I grew/planted on my property.  Both have started to go palmate and, honestly, I have a hard time telling the difference in side by side comparisons.  I will say that the Sabal mexicana specimens "seemed" to do better during the February 2021 freeze event we had here.  The Sabal mexicana (2 of them) were not protected, and presented no frond burn/damage that I could see; whereas, the Sabal palmetto was protected with frost cloth, and still suffered very minor browning on the frond tips.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Yeah, I have read that long petioles, as well as lighter green frond appearance, are identifiers for Sabal mexicana.  I am just not enough of an expert to definitively say that is what they are.  Also, I believe there is some infra specific variability within the various species as well (i.e., shade grown vs full sun, darker vs lighter colorization, etc.).  I usually look at seed size (once mature enough to produce) before I personally make my own determination.  For example, I picked some seeds off of a local mature Sabal sps, (commercial planting) growing at a Taco Cabana on Southcross Road (https://goo.gl/maps/khRmKYnMaYsfUVKV8) last night, and compared them with some other local mature Sabal sps. seeds gathered from the Pasha Restaurant on Wurzbach Road (https://goo.gl/maps/WphiL9jJQ2ttido28) that I have been germinating since December of 2021 (see image below).

The Southcross Sabal sps. seed is on the left (as you face the picture), and the germinated Wurzbach Sabal sps. seed is on the right (as you face the picture).  Both mature palms looked fairly identical at first glance; however, the Southcross Sabal sps. had much smaller seeds. I believe the Southcross Sabal sps. is Sabal palmetto, and the Wurzbach Sabal sps. is Sabal mexicana.  I know its purely anecdotal, but it is the only way I know of to "easily" tell them apart.  When I see Sabal sps. planted around here, the first thing I look for is seed drupes.  The ones that I believe to be Sabal mexicana have drupes that look like bunches of grapes (they are that big).  When I observe Sabal sps. planted in commercial or residential settings around here, I typically find (i.e., more often than not) Sabal sps. that produce drupes with smaller seeds.  Right or wrong, I consider them to be Sabal palmetto.  Obviously, I find Sabal sps. with large seed drupes as well (as evidenced in the picture); however, my personal observations are that these are less common (at least in the San Antonio area).  I will be the first to admit that I have not found every Sabal sps. around here, nor have I been able to observe the drupes on every mature Sabal sps. around here; therefore, my "analysis" is based solely on my own biased observation sampling.

These juvenile Sabal sps. along the Salado Creek Greenway may very well be Sabal mexicana (and I suspect at least some are).  I have just seen how easy it is to germinate both Sabal mexicana and Sabal palmetto seeds, and I have a hard time believing that Sabal palmetto is so less likely to "escape" and naturalize outside it's reported native range than Sabal mexicana is (particularly when the germination/growing conditions are right).  Also, I have seed grown specimens of both Sabal palmetto and Sabal mexicana (both juveniles) that I grew/planted on my property.  Both have started to go palmate and, honestly, I have a hard time telling the difference in side by side comparisons.  I will say that the Sabal mexicana specimens "seemed" to do better during the February 2021 freeze event we had here.  The Sabal mexicana (2 of them) were not protected, and presented no frond burn/damage that I could see; whereas, the Sabal palmetto was protected with frost cloth, and still suffered very minor browning on the frond tips.

I am equally no expert. Everything you’ve stated seems correct to me. Shade vs. full sun, different soils, amount of rain. Any number of factors can affect the appearance to some degree. The general variability in the same seed batch from the same Sabal is eye opening. And I know people are hesitant to talk about this, but there’s a real possibility that there’s more Sabal hybrids out there than anyone is aware of. 
I was almost hesitant to comment on what those could be for all those reasons. Then in that 3-10 year old range things can get real fuzzy too with almost all sabals looking very similar. A few old timers I’ve talked to said they’ve had sabals setting seed for 30-40 years at their houses. The whole neighborhood has sabals now because of the birds distributing the seeds. Really at that point anything is possible. Blur the lines real quick between a native stand and naturalized stand that might have originally started from a planted specimen. 
I’ve got seedling stage palmetto and mexicana, and some juvenile potted palmettos and one potted mexicana. Just from what I can see mexicana grows faster and is more robust at this point. I’ve got maybe 40 palmetto all young and small…but really Sabal minor is more robust than palmetto that I have from quite a few different seed sources. Wispy is maybe the best descriptor word for all the ones in pots and planted. Again just my observations, not an expert by any means

[GoatLockerGuns]

2 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Just from what I can see mexicana grows faster and is more robust

I would concur based on my own observations.  My Sabal mexicana are definitely growing faster than my Sabal palmetto, but not as fast as my Sabal causiarum (which is the fastest growing Sabal sps. from seed that I have ever grown).

5 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Sabal minor is more robust than palmetto that I have from quite a few different seed sources.

Same experience.  Although, last February both my Sabal mexicana and Sabal minor survived overnight lows of 6F and 9F, four solid days below freezing (and 2" of snow), with no protection and with no visible damage whatsoever to either.  I would say they are both crazy cold hardy!

9 minutes ago, teddytn said:

And I know people are hesitant to talk about this, but there’s a real possibility that there’s more Sabal hybrids out there than anyone is aware of. 

Good call; you will want to keep that kind of talk on the "down-low."  You would not want to labeled a Sabal sps. conspiracy theorist or anything!  You have those Palmtalk reputation points to consider...

[GoatLockerGuns]

Dude starts a thread on a few Sabal sps. specimens in some podunk Texas town, and all the Sabal freaks come out of the woodwork...speaking of which...I stopped by Praha on my way to Galveston last Friday (being one of those Sabal freaks an all...and it was right off the I-10).  Looks like most, if not all, of these palms survived the February 2021 freeze (no surprise there).  The University of Texas article in the original thread post alluded to some distinction between these palms and other Sabal sps. found here in Texas; however, it was a rather truncated article, and it does not sound like there has been any in-depth study on the matter.

Here are some Google Earth images showing the palms I observed (there may be more, I was short on time), and their location in and around Saint Mary's Catholic Church in Praha (I numbered the specimens 1 through 15):

All palms that I observed:

Palms 1 - 6:

Palms 7 - 15:

Individual palm pictures that I took:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #1:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #2 and #3:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #2:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #4 and #5:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #4:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #5:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #6:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #7 - #12:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #7:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #8 - #12:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #8 - #10:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #10:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #12:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #13:

Sabal sps. 'Praha' #14 and #15:

Only two palms had produced recent fruits (Sabal sps. 'Praha' #4 and Sabal sps. 'Praha' #5).  Below is a comparison of fruit size between the two:

Here is a comparison of the cleaned seeds, along with a cleaned Sabal mexicana seed (collected from Moody Gardens in Galveston, Texas) for further scale:

[Chester B]

@GoatLockerGuns thanks for stopping to investigate and taking the time to present your findings.  Very interesting indeed. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:23 AM, Austinpalm said:

Attached is a paper describing the likelihood of Sabal mexicana occurring north of the Rio Grande.

I just re-read the Goldman, Klooster, Griffith, Fay, & Chase (2011) paper on Sabal x brazoriensis (see attached below).  I never noticed it before, but it looks like they utilized Sabal mexicana samples taken from Jackson County, Texas for their comparisons with other native Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, Sabal mexicana, and Sabal x brazoriensis genetic material.  Previously I had stated that:

On 2/24/2022 at 9:19 AM, GoatLockerGuns said:

I do not believe it has been settled that those were Sabal mexicana in Victoria though, or if they were, that they were part of the natural habitat extent (or just ornamental escapees).

Given that they quoted the same Lockett & Read (1990) paper that you posted, I am assuming that they obtained those Jackson County Sabal mexicana samples from similar "Victoria" Sabal mexicana specimens referenced in the Lockett & Read (1990) paper occurring in or around Garcitas Creek (on the border of Jackson and Victoria counties).  Since they demonstrated that those Jackson County samples showed the genetic "markers" for Sabal mexicana, and were then utilized for comparison to the other Sabal sps. samples as Sabal mexicana samples, then it stands to reason that it is pretty much settled that those Sabal sps. reference by Lockett & Read (1990) probably are Sabal mexicana.  Therefore, I stand corrected; although, they never discuss how they determined that those specimens were naturally occurring, and not just naturalized "escapees" from other cultivated specimens.  I assume they are going off the anecdotal reports from early Europeans of tall Sabal sps. being observed in the area, and quoted in the Lockett & Read (1990) paper.

17655-58893-1-PB.pdf

[Xerarch]

Very interesting, in the above photos I don't think the crowns look like Sabal palmetto, and the seeds don't look like Sabal mexicana.  All the things in the world that we think we know, yet so many things out there either un- or understudied, or not known.

[GoatLockerGuns]

37 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Very interesting, in the above photos I don't think the crowns look like Sabal palmetto, and the seeds don't look like Sabal mexicana.

The seeds do seem smaller than the Sabal mexicana seeds I typically see (and germinate).  I really can't speak for the crowns though.  I am just not knowledgeable enough to say for sure.  I have seen so much variation on the presentation of Sabal sps., that I really cannot tell for certain just by looking at them.  I used to live in Jupiter, Florida, and would drive across the southern portion of the Florida peninsula on my way to visit my parents in Cape Coral, Florida quite often.  Honestly, these palms in Praha, Texas look very similar to the myriad of Sabal palmetto I would see in the interior on that 3 hour drive.

[GoatLockerGuns]

Sabal sps. 'Praha' seeds update:

Picture of cleaned Sabal sps. 'Praha' seeds below, with Sabal mexicana (Moody Gardens), ruler, and change (U.S.) for scale.  Average Sabal mexicana seed diameters measured approximately slightly more than 1/2 of an inch, and there was pronounced "flattening" of the seed observed (they look almost disk shaped).  Average Sabal sps. 'Praha' #4 seed diameters measured approximately 1/4 of an inch, with average Sabal sps. 'Praha' #5 seed diameters measuring slightly more than 1/4 of an inch.  Both Sabal sps. 'Praha' seeds were mostly round, with a slight "flattening" of the seed observed.  I did not have any current Sabal palmetto seeds to compare them with.

Parent Sabal mexicana at Moody Gardens pictured below:

[GoatLockerGuns]

Sabal sp. 'Praha' #4 seed germination vs Sabal mexicana seed germination.  Both were "sowed" at roughly the same time (beginning of March), and both germinated at roughly the same time (end of March):

[Collectorpalms]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:38 AM, GoatLockerGuns said:

Sabal sp. 'Praha' #4 seed germination vs Sabal mexicana seed germination.  Both were "sowed" at roughly the same time (beginning of March), and both germinated at roughly the same time (end of March):

Wow, Thanks!

[Kentuckypalms]

wish we had a comparison to the sabal palmetto to see how they compare to the praha sabal. It would be awesome if it was actually native to Texas not just brought in recently.

[awkonradi]

This is a damn interesting thread!  I really appreciate all posters' contributions.

[awkonradi]

I speculate that slow gene flow has occurred between S. palmetto, S. minor, and S. mexicana, even prior to "post-Columbian" ecological disruption.  I speculate the same has occurred between W. filifera and W. robusta, and between Phoenix species in the old world.  I speculate that pollen is so mobile and durable that this is feasible, inevitable, and healthy.  I realize these are not original thoughts.

[GoatLockerGuns]

10 hours ago, Centraltxpalm said:

It would be awesome if it was actually native to Texas not just brought in recently.

I guess in this case, the term "recent" is both relative and subjective.  I believe one of articles by Bob Harms in the the original thread post discusses interviews with elderly resident(s) of Praha that remember Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5 being there when they were children.   I think there was also discussion about a "row of four palms" in the location of Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5, but that a former priest at St. Mary's had some of them cut down.  Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5 is allegedly the only one of those four that is still standing.  I believe the current thinking is that the other similar younger Sabal sp. growing in the area are the decedents of Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5, or possibly one of the other four original palms.  @Collectorpalms talked about a railroad line that used to have a route that passed somewhat near this area, and that ran East/West into the Florida panhandle.  I believe he has identified other Sabal sp. palms in a different Texas town near that same railroad route that had some unusual characteristics.  There may be some sort of connection there?

 

10 hours ago, Centraltxpalm said:

wish we had a comparison to the sabal palmetto to see how they compare to the praha sabal.

I just do not have any Sabal palmetto seed currently to compare it to; however, I have germinated many Sabal palmetto seeds in the past, and I personally believe that the growth profile at this stage of development looks very similar to Sabal palmetto.  Regardless of whether it is or is not Sabal palmetto, I think we can safely conclude that it is not Sabal mexicana.  (I believe Sabal mexicana and Sabal x brazoriensis are the only two officially recognized native trunking Sabal spp. in Texas).  I do not think that it will ever be definitively figured out until someone smarter than me collects some DNA from Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5, and publishes a paper with the results as compared to other known Sabal spp. DNA samples.  Given the age and length of time that Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5 has been anecdotally reported as growing here, the next question would be how did it get here?  Did Central European immigrants bring it with them when they decided to homestead here in the mid-nineteenth century?  Was is already here when they arrived?

 

38 minutes ago, awkonradi said:

I speculate that slow gene flow has occurred between S. palmetto, S. minor, and S. mexicana, even prior to "post-Columbian" ecological disruption.

Goldman et al. (2011) concluded that Sabal x brazoriensis was an old hybrid of Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor; however, their research found no evidence of hybridization with Sabal mexicana.  Quote: "All of the evidence together suggests that if the Brazoria material is of hybrid origin, the initial hybridization event may have taken place thousands of years ago when the geographic distributions of parents were different and presumed reproductive barriers were relaxed.  Since that time they seem to have reproduced primarily with each other, and segregation of morphological traits seems to be occurring now." (p.18).

I personally doubt that Sabal sp. 'Praha' is some new species or hybrid.  If I were to place a bet on it, my money would be on Sabal palmetto.  Possibly one with some morphological differentiation, but Sabal palmetto nonetheless.  Goldman et al. (2011) also found that, "...one could infer that [Sabal palmetto] may contain a surprising amount of genetic variation...this species can show a large amount of morphological variation over its geographic range...so this species may be unusually genetically diverse within the genus."  (p. 19).  Now as to how it got there...I would not take that bet.

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

 

Goldman et al. (2011) concluded that Sabal x brazoriensis was an old hybrid of Sabal palmetto and Sabal minor; however, their research found no evidence of hybridization with Sabal mexicana.  Quote: "All of the evidence together suggests that if the Brazoria material is of hybrid origin, the initial hybridization event may have taken place thousands of years ago when the geographic distributions of parents were different and presumed reproductive barriers were relaxed.  

I personally doubt that Sabal sp. 'Praha' is some new species or hybrid.  If I were to place a bet on it, my money would be on Sabal palmetto.  Possibly one with some morphological differentiation, but Sabal palmetto nonetheless.  Goldman et al. (2011) also found that, "...one could infer that [Sabal palmetto] may contain a surprising amount of genetic variation...this species can show a large amount of morphological variation over its geographic range...so this species may be unusually genetically diverse within the genus."  (p. 19).  Now as to how it got there...I would not take that bet.

But is 'Praha' a recent import from the east or a remnant disjunct population of S. palmetto?  Would be really cool to see how it clusters vs eastern S. palmetto and S. xbrazoriensis.

I've always wondered what happened to the S. palmetto progenitor of S. xbrazoriensis and why S. palmetto is completely absent from the western Gulf. Perhaps it was just a one time chance dispersal event near Brazoria? Or was S. palmetto widespread in the western Gulf at some point? 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Xenon

[GoatLockerGuns]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

But is 'Praha' a recent import from the east or a remnant disjunct population of S. palmetto?  Would be really cool to see how it clusters vs eastern S. palmetto and S. xbrazoriensis.

I've always wondered what happened to the S. palmetto progenitor of S. xbrazoriensis and why S. palmetto is completely absent from the western Gulf. Perhaps it was just a one time chance dispersal event near Brazoria? Or was S. palmetto widespread in the western Gulf at some point? 

All good questions.  Getting them answered definitively will prove daunting.  The writings of Bob Harms and Landon Lockett (both of whom are now deceased I believe) that have been referenced throughout this thread recount stories of trunking Sabal spp. up and down the Texas Gulf Coast.  Most (if not all) of these specimens we apparently cut down to build pier pilings (apparently Sabal spp. trunks are really good for such things) by the mid-twentieth century.  Were they Sabal x brazoriensis? Were they Sabal mexicana? Were they some other Sabal sp.?  As William Shatner might say: "That is what we are trying to find out...but until we find more evidence...this mystery will remain....unexplained."

[GoatLockerGuns]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:01 PM, Centraltxpalm said:

wish we had a comparison to the sabal palmetto to see how they compare to the praha sabal. It would be awesome if it was actually native to Texas not just brought in recently.

I stumbled upon a local Sabal palmetto that still contained fruit on its inflorescence last night.  I cleaned the seeds and compared them to germinated seeds from both Sabal sp. 'Praha' palms that I collected fruits from back in late February (i.e., Sabal sp. 'Praha' #4 and Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5).  While there were some some slight morphological variation in the Sabal palmetto seeds that I cleaned (10 total), all of them were clearly smaller than both Sabal sp. 'Praha' seeds.  I also threw in a germinated Sabal mexicana seed (sourced locally), and a germinated Sabal etonia 'Miamiensis' seed (that I got from @Bigfish) into the comparison photo for good measure.  See below:

Here is the parent Sabal palmetto (on the left as you face the picture) that I gather seeds from last night:

So....I guess one could say, "the mystery deepens," or "the game is afoot," or "insert your favorite cliche here."  I will admit it...I suspected these Sabal sp. 'Praha' were just regular old Sabal palmetto, and that this thread was a bunch of excitement about nothing.  Now I am not as sure of that previous hypothesis.  Although, I keep thinking back to the aforementioned Goldman et al. (2011) paper where they discuss the varied morphological differentiation of Sabal palmetto across its range (even though it did not call out major variations in seed size per se).  I would love to get my hands on some Sabal x brazoriensis seeds for comparison, as those would be the next likely candidate in my opinion.

[richtrav]

Has anyone ever been out to look at the sabals in Natalia lately? They were planted many years ago and do not resemble the form of S. mexicana native to the mouth of the Rio Grande. I haven’t been over there in about 20 years and last I heard the town was debating what to do with the old trees. There is also what appears to be a taller form of mexicana that has been cultivated for many years in Raymondville. And there is also a curious variant of the Rio Grande form of mexicana that has shorter than normal petioles which gives it a compact “lollipop” look. It is seen in Kingsville, Alice, Mission and probably other towns in South Texas.

 

[GoatLockerGuns]

7 hours ago, richtrav said:

Has anyone ever been out to look at the sabals in Natalia lately?

There are many Sabal spp. planted in Natalia.  Are you referring to the ones that are/were planted at Veteran's Park?

[richtrav]

I remember them being planted along the streets (a number of streets) as in the first picture but again that was 20 years ago. Seems like there were also some volunteering in a creek bed just outside town. 

 

[Collectorpalms]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:21 AM, GoatLockerGuns said:

I stumbled upon a local Sabal palmetto that still contained fruit on its inflorescence last night.  I cleaned the seeds and compared them to germinated seeds from both Sabal sp. 'Praha' palms that I collected fruits from back in late February (i.e., Sabal sp. 'Praha' #4 and Sabal sp. 'Praha' #5).  While there were some some slight morphological variation in the Sabal palmetto seeds that I cleaned (10 total), all of them were clearly smaller than both Sabal sp. 'Praha' seeds.  I also threw in a germinated Sabal mexicana seed (sourced locally), and a germinated Sabal etonia 'Miamiensis' seed (that I got from @Bigfish) into the comparison photo for good measure.  See below:

Here is the parent Sabal palmetto (on the left as you face the picture) that I gather seeds from last night:

So....I guess one could say, "the mystery deepens," or "the game is afoot," or "insert your favorite cliche here."  I will admit it...I suspected these Sabal sp. 'Praha' were just regular old Sabal palmetto, and that this thread was a bunch of excitement about nothing.  Now I am not as sure of that previous hypothesis.  Although, I keep thinking back to the aforementioned Goldman et al. (2011) paper where they discuss the varied morphological differentiation of Sabal palmetto across its range (even though it did not call out major variations in seed size per se).  I would love to get my hands on some Sabal x brazoriensis seeds for comparison, as those would be the next likely candidate in my opinion.

Sabal Brazoria seeds are nice medium sized Sabal sized seeds. Much Larger than Palmetto, minor, Louisiana, and Praha #4, 5, but smaller than TX Sabal. TX can be VERY Large. I just planted ones almost dime sized. Sorry I just planted mine last week so no pictures. 
In your picture take TX Sabal assuming it’s a big one and Praha #5 and split the difference. 
 

Now if I could see a difference in the Caribbean Sabals… but that’s another thread. I have all but not sure those are accurate. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[GoatLockerGuns]

7 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Sabal Brazoria seeds are nice medium sized Sabal sized seeds. Much Larger than Palmetto and Praha #4, but smaller than TX Sabal. TX can be VERY Large. I just planted ones almost dime sized. Sorry I just planted mine last week so no pictures. 
In your picture take TX Sabal assuming it’s a big one and Praha #5 and split the difference. 
 

Now if I could see a difference in the Caribbean Sabals… but that’s another thread. I have all but not sure those are accurate. 

Yeah...I have gotten my hands on Sabal x brazoriensis seeds in the past thanks to @Fusca, however, they did not grow past seedlings.  I do remember them to be larger than Sabal palmetto, but smaller than Sabal mexicana (which also describes many other species in the Sabal genus, as I believe you are also alluding to with your "Caribbean Sabals" comment).  You say Sabal x brazoriensis seeds are also bigger than the Sabal sp. 'Praha' seeds, and that seems to jive with my past observations as well.  However, I would feel more confident in that conclusion if I were able to do a side-by-side comparison (as shown above), then just relying on my memory.  I said in the previous thread that the "...[Sabal palmetto seeds] were clearly smaller than both Sabal sp. 'Praha' seeds."  That is true, but not by all that much.  The average Sabal palmetto seed I measured was around 6^1/4mm or less in size.  The average Sabal sp. 'Praha' seed was between 8mm to 9^1/2mm in size.  Is a difference of 2mm to 2^1/2mm even a nominal size difference worth scrutiny?  The seeds do look different (in size anyway), but are they actually different enough to represent a separate species or hybrid?  For example, Zona (1985) differentiated Sabal miamiensis from Sabal etonia using a disparity in seeds size between the two as one of the defining traits that set them apart (the average Sabal miamiensis seeds were supposedly up to 4mm larger than the average Sabal etonia seeds).  However, Humphreys et al. (2019) dismissed Sabal miamiensis as a separate species, and it is now considered a synonym for Sabal etonia.  Are there other differences besides seed size in the Sabal sp. 'Praha' palms that set them apart from Sabal palmetto?  Or, is this seeds size difference just one example of the "morphological differentiation" in Sabal palmetto over their natural range that Goldman et al. (2011) was referring to?  I do not not know...it is a good mystery though.

[Collectorpalms]

There is going to be a slight seed size difference based on climatological conditions for that season I imagine and variability from Seed to seed if you collect enough. I had roughly 3000 Sabal seeds… slight variability no idea what I am going to do with them if they germinate. Trade or give away I guess. I’d like to get them to 5 gallon size and advertise them for a Texas pickup. But that would be too costly/time consuming to give away for free. 

My Sabals are sending inflorescences and we had good rain so far here. I just hope the bugs don’t get to them. I am prepared to spray the critters. For some reason I want to germinate those too next season.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Collectorpalms