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Best Cold Hardy Livistona


ZPalms

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Is there a something to kick start nitidas? I have one that's among slowest growers for me, it's knee high for more then 4-5 years. Rocky loam soil, raised bed,...,zero points?

Maybe I'm missing something?

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21 minutes ago, dalmatiansoap said:

Is there a something to kick start nitidas? I have one that's among slowest growers for me, it's knee high for more then 4-5 years. Rocky loam soil, raised bed,...,zero points?

Maybe I'm missing something?

I’m experiencing the same thing with mine. Also knee high, in sandy soil and mulched, but barely doing anything. Weird! 

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7 hours ago, Estlander said:

I’m experiencing the same thing with mine. Also knee high, in sandy soil and mulched, but barely doing anything. Weird! 

For reference, my L. Nitida has been growing quite well the past years. This winter we got down to 15F (weather reports predicted 25F) so it has 90% defoliated and will likely spear pull and may not make it. I planted it in 2020 with a trunk diameter of 2.5". Grew to 3.5" in 2021 and its currently 6" (!). Unirrigated spot (did get some hand watering but not last year) in FULL Texas sun. Mounded up 1-2' with a mix of Sandy loam and organic matter and some crushed volcanic rock/ash. Mulch on top. 

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After last year's wet freeze here (below 10F), we lost a good many Livistona sps.; however, we also had some notable survivors (Livistona chinensis anyway).  Livistona chinensis is not planted as prolifically as Washingtonia sps., so I can't really say whether it fared worst, same, or better (real hit or miss scenarios with both Livistona chinensis and Washingtonia sps. survival).  As I believe @Collectorpalms has also stated on a number of threads, I think the wetter than normal spring (and summer really) that followed the freeze event probably contributed to some Washingtonia sps. ultimately not making it (particularly the ones showing some new growth by mid-April, yet ultimately dead by the end of summer).  I would suspect that said wet freeze / wet warm dichotomy may have also affected the Livistona chinensis around here as well.  I have seen some Livistona chinensis survivors at the Riverwalk (even juveniles); unfortunately, I do not have any pictures.  Here are a few before and after shots of other Livistona sps. around the San Antonio area (some made it, some did not):

Livistona chinensis at a southside Taco Cabana (https://goo.gl/maps/dmEk26HdA8gKAPJNA).  Five were originally planted here (three of them are pictured in the first photo), only one survived:

Before (January 2021):

image.thumb.png.b95676443f472f613888e0e83ed70ae5.png

After (February 2022):

image.thumb.jpeg.bce12f664fc69e8df37315a23d0fd6f4.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.d920b104747039e453bd4b6fe8266eb2.jpeg

Livistona chinensis at the Oblate School of Theology (https://goo.gl/maps/jJmDNbyrLg8Xpqqa7):

Before (January 2021):

image.thumb.png.bc37f322f6006b196a5a99471633be08.png

After (March 2022):

image.thumb.jpeg.fcaf046080cb45af8e30ea4394d8733d.jpeg

Two Livistona nitida at the Oblate School of Theology (https://goo.gl/maps/jJmDNbyrLg8Xpqqa7):

Before (January 2021):

image.thumb.png.e85e962ed7e4565298589e0291c8f76f.png

image.thumb.png.9013d53a2a6ef7e0db193d72b27936e8.png

After (March 2022 - neither made it):

image.thumb.jpeg.d81580133a21b3fe024d68e03b06188d.jpeg

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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10 hours ago, Estlander said:

I’m experiencing the same thing with mine. Also knee high, in sandy soil and mulched, but barely doing anything. Weird! 

Give them a lot of water!

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10 hours ago, ZPalms said:

I bought some Livistona chinensis seeds, I'm excited to give them a try

If you got fresh seed, then they should be super easy to germinate.  If they are not fresh, or your germination efforts otherwise do not pan out, PM me and might be able to help.  I have some extra Livistona chinensis seeds that recently germinated.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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14 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

If you got fresh seed, then they should be super easy to germinate.  If they are not fresh, or your germination efforts otherwise do not pan out, PM me and might be able to help.  I have some extra Livistona chinensis seeds that recently germinated.

I got them from @Reyes Vargas and I think they are fresh, I saw he had some in the freebies area and I just paid shipping, I did want a already sprouted livistona and I looked everywhere but my budget friendly alternative was to try and sprouting some myself :)

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Just now, ZPalms said:

I got them from @Reyes Vargas and I think they are fresh, I saw he had some in the freebies area and I just paid shipping, I did want a already sprouted livistona and I looked everywhere but my budget friendly alternative was to try and sprouting some myself 

Nice.  Good luck.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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On 2/17/2022 at 3:18 PM, Chester B said:

Mine is in its second winter outside and looks good.

 

Locally, Tanner gifted me a nice chinensis that is doing great!  He gave me a whole bunch of his collection in a generous trade deal.  Squirrels did a number on a few of the smaller strap leaf palms though.

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57 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

If you got fresh seed, then they should be super easy to germinate.  If they are not fresh, or your germination efforts otherwise do not pan out, PM me and might be able to help.  I have some extra Livistona chinensis seeds that recently germinated.

I found that out firsthand that old seeds don't sprout.  Ordered a whole bunch of seeds from an ebay seller.  Not one of them germinated.

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I got some seed starter and I'm ready to go, I'm scared where Im gonna pot them all up individually tho :blink2:

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48 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

I'm scared where Im gonna pot them all up individually tho

Start with cheap 3" community/nursery pots, and pot up as they grow.  They actually make decent "house" palms when younger.  I have found that shade grown (or filtered light) Livistona chinensis typically take on a nice deep green frond color, and the fronds seem to grow bigger.  However, they grow slower than those in full sun (which is not so bad if you are keeping them as "house" palms).  The ones grown in full sun tend to look lighter green (sometimes almost yellowish), and just don't "look" as healthy to me.  The seem to grow faster in full sun though, so I guess it is all a matter of what "look" you are looking for.  I personally think they look nice as under story palms when young in marginal climates, with the big dark green fronds.

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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10 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

Locally, Tanner gifted me a nice chinensis that is doing great!  He gave me a whole bunch of his collection in a generous trade deal.  Squirrels did a number on a few of the smaller strap leaf palms though.

That might’ve come from me. I gave him one recently. Still have three in the ground, they made it through winter alright with minimal damage. The nitida looks flawless though. 

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What’s the best way to sprout fresh chinensis seeds? I googled but my seeds are plump still and I’m unsure if I should peel the fruit off or leave it on or soak them? 

3B0C5B47-2D80-4456-9D79-523E09343719.jpeg

CF8E9FA6-55F9-422B-8D5F-58DF94784B88.jpeg

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I've found these easier to sprout than just about any other palms I've tried. Soaked the fresh ones like yours for a couple of days until the fruit easily peels off. Dried the peeled seeds and then planted in community pots. About this time last year they sprouted quickly with the pots outside in my Zone 8A location. I also sprouted some during winter in Ziplocs placed in the furnace closet. 

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10 hours ago, teaksmith said:

I've found these easier to sprout than just about any other palms I've tried. Soaked the fresh ones like yours for a couple of days until the fruit easily peels off. Dried the peeled seeds and then planted in community pots. About this time last year they sprouted quickly with the pots outside in my Zone 8A location. I also sprouted some during winter in Ziplocs placed in the furnace closet. 

They are freshly plump, Do I put them in water even though they are plump? or should I let the fruit dry out a bit? or does it not matter?

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I got a package just like that, we must shop at the same place!!  Thanks to @Reyes VargasThese seeds look like they'd make a tasty pie, until you scrape away the skin. 

The fruit/mesocarp scrape away easily with a thumbnail, is there any reason to soak?  I think soaking is normally to rehydrate, but also sometimes to facilitate removal of exo/mesocarp...?

 

20220320_192143.jpg

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1 hour ago, Jesse PNW said:

I got a package just like that, we must shop at the same place!!  Thanks to @Reyes VargasThese seeds look like they'd make a tasty pie, until you scrape away the skin. 

The fruit/mesocarp scrape away easily with a thumbnail, is there any reason to soak?  I think soaking is normally to rehydrate, but also sometimes to facilitate removal of exo/mesocarp...?

 

20220320_192143.jpg

I did get them from him, They look so good. I wish I could eat one, but I heard they don't taste good, but they feel like a bunch of gushers :D 

I wasn't sure if I should remove the fruit or not because I heard you are not supposed to remove the skin for some seeds because they just start to rot? Should I remove the fruit like you did? I'm a complete noob at germinating fresh seeds.

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I just tried it on one seed to see.  Half the seeds are soaking.  I've never germinated these either.  

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1 minute ago, Jesse PNW said:

I just tried it on one seed to see.  Half the seeds are soaking.  I've never germinated these either.  

Please let me know what works for you cause I have no idea where to start :wacko:

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I just looked at another forum and somebody took the fruit off and soaked them in water and half of them started germinating in just water, I may just take all of my seeds and take the skins off and soak the and see what happens and any that don't ill do the baggy method and place somewhere warm

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/20/2022 at 9:50 PM, DAVEinMB said:

Ok I got some pics together of the L. Chinensis planting I referenced earlier in the thread. These are at an condo complex in Pawleys Island. Looks like the complex was built in either 08 or 09. In 2011 it doesn't look like they were present but then they appear in 2014 with a picture gap between those years, not sure what year they were actually planted. Here's a few pics of how they've looked over the years with time stamps attached. I've also attached the low temps from the past 10 years or so as recorded by currentresults.com. When I go to True Blue to pick up my Monrovia order I'll get some pics of how they look following this year's winter storm. 

So if the general consensus is zone 8 is a zone push for L. Chinensis (which I'm not sure I completely agree with), at what point in your growing experiment do you consider it a win? These are commercial plantings so they're pretty much on their own and have gone through a number of cold winters including that brutal 2018 nonsense and still look great today. If I got 10 years out of a plant that people told me wouldn't make it and I gave it no special care, I'd be pretty damn happy. Like I said above, if you know you're going to see single digits every year then trying one of these is probably not going to be a good idea...but then again if single digits are common we're not talking zone 8 anymore. And no, they aren't going to look pristine in zone 8 but they will at least live long enough for you to get some enjoyment out of them. 

But that's the end of my rant haha, I'll post pics when I get to Pawleys. 

Screenshot_20220220-203815_Chrome.jpg

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2014-2.png

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2015-1.png

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2017-2.png

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2017-1.png

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2019-1.png

Pawleys L. Chinensis -- 2019-2.png

Here are pics of these I took yesterday (4/13/22), they have a little burn from the ice storm but all in all look pretty good. 

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18 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

Here are pics of these I took yesterday (4/13/22), they have a little burn from the ice storm but all in all look pretty good. 

How did they survive and still look pretty good?

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2 hours ago, ZPalms said:

How did they survive and still look pretty good?

This isn't their first rodeo

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8 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

This isn't their first rodeo

Would you consider this winter as a mild one?

Edited by ZPalms
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3 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

Would you consider this winter as a mild one?

I've been kinda snoopin' around on this topic. I live in MB and I definitely wouldn't consider it a "mild" winter. We have gotten worse, but this time it was still pretty bad. Many CIDP and Sylvesters have gotten hit pretty bad. Surprised that those Livistona look that good. But as Dave said, not their first rodeo.

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15 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

Like @General Sylvester D. Palm said we've had worse but this one wasn't great. Freezing rain, snow, multiple dips into the upper teens = no bueno

Yeah, it's always sad to see some palms doing so well and then just look horrible. There was one P. sylvestris that looked beautiful in some commercial area, now it looks like crud. Surprisingly mine just had some burning on the tips and didn't get rot. I covered it a bit but was still expecting some pretty bad damage. Picture was taken just now.

20220415_093142.jpg

Edited by General Sylvester D. Palm
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I guess that ice storm we had here was rough, pine trees were snapping everywhere! Better to have a crispy palm than a dead palm :greenthumb:

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1 minute ago, ZPalms said:

I guess that ice storm we had here was rough, pine trees were snapping everywhere! Better to have a crispy palm than a dead palm :greenthumb:

Absolutely! Overall, my take on this, if you want to have a Livistona, just go for it man! Sure it may not be there long term, but I ain't going to be here long term nor are ANY palms. From what I've observed, it seems to be a warm 8b cold 9a palm. You are in 8a, not THAT big of a difference. Someone once told me to grow some stuff that can just live here and be in the plant and forget category, but what fun is that!?

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5 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Absolutely! Overall, my take on this, if you want to have a Livistona, just go for it man! Sure it may not be there long term, but I ain't going to be here long term nor are ANY palms. From what I've observed, it seems to be a warm 8b cold 9a palm. You are in 8a, not THAT big of a difference. Someone once told me to grow some stuff that can just live here and be in the plant and forget category, but what fun is that!?

I see you already bought some seeds but still, this is my thought on zone pushing. Good luck!

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Canopy matters for chinensis…… a lot

mine never burns while others in town fully exposed look terrible after winter

please excuse the 2x4s. The palm was nearly horizontal after hurricane Ida

1844A3DD-E76C-4BE0-A5E4-3805F80D6DF8.jpeg

365DA9E6-D463-4E7F-9A30-D452E0671A73.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Absolutely! Overall, my take on this, if you want to have a Livistona, just go for it man! Sure it may not be there long term, but I ain't going to be here long term nor are ANY palms. From what I've observed, it seems to be a warm 8b cold 9a palm. You are in 8a, not THAT big of a difference. Someone once told me to grow some stuff that can just live here and be in the plant and forget category, but what fun is that!?

I think most of the palms that I have are marginal zone push or complete zone push, I have sabal palmetto seeds and trachys and butia and I'm gonna say a maybe Sabal Causrium which is going in the ground this spring but those are pretty normal ones that do fine except Causrium being experiemental but I love the speed that sabal has but the majority seeds that I have are Livistona, Acoelorrhaphe wrightii, 1 Medjool, Washingtonia Filibusta, Chamaedorea radicicalus, Green Malayan, B. alfredii and Roystonea Regia :mrlooney:

I love zone pushing it's just so fun!!!!

I'm struggling to germinate them cause I get anxiety that I may mess them up or not give them what they need and they wont sprout and more so I lack the amount of pots I need for so many seeds :unsure: But I'm soaking trachy and livistona seeds today now that I got a chance :greenthumb:

Edited by ZPalms
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20 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

I think most of the palms that I have are marginal zone push or complete zone push, I have sabal palmetto seeds and trachys and butia and I'm gonna say a maybe Sabal Causrium which is going in the ground this spring but those are pretty normal ones that do fine except causrium being experiemental but I love the speed that sabal has but the majority seeds that I have are Livistona, Acoelorrhaphe wrightii, 1 Medjool, Washingtonia Filibusta, Chamaedorea radicicalus, Green Malayan, B. alfredii and Roystonea Regia :mrlooney:

I love zone pushing it's just so fun!!!!

I'm struggling to germinate them cause I get anxiety that I may mess them up or not give them what they need and they wont sprout and more so I lack the amount of pots I need for so many seeds :unsure:

Oh yeah, I get nervous that I am doing it right. I used the baggy method on some W. filibusta seeds and just germinated a few days ago. I like trying to get seeds from palms that have endured bad weather. The seeds I got from the filibusta were from some old tall palms here in MB that have seen many many cold winters. I'm thinking of getting a Phoenix roebelenii and putting it in a protected microclimate next to my house. Zone pushing is truly addicting.

Edited by General Sylvester D. Palm
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7 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Oh yeah, I get nervous that I am doing it right. I used the baggy method on some W. filibusta seeds and just germinated a few days ago. I like trying to get seeds from palms that have endured bad weather. The seeds I got from the filibusta were from some old tall palms here in MB that have seen many many cold winters. I'm thinking of getting a Phoenix robelleni and putting it in a protected microclimate next to my house. Zone pushing is truly addicting.

You guys are lucky to live in 8b even though it's not too far from 8a. You guys have that small difference that still matters, which is cool for zone pushing. I have Phoenix Robelleni seeds and I had 4 germinate and die because I planted them in pure sand because of a youtube tutorial, and now none of the rest are germinating and I'm upset! It took me 6 months to germinate them and for them to die! I really want one, and I don't want one clumped from the store.:badday:

Edited by ZPalms
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10 minutes ago, ZPalms said:

You guys are lucky to live in 8b even though it's not too far from 8a. You guys have that small difference that still matters, which is cool for zone pushing. I have Phoenix Robelleni seeds and I had 4 germinate and die because I planted them in pure sand because of a youtube tutorial, and now none of the rest are germinating and I'm upset! It took me 6 months to germinate them and for them to die! I really want one, and I don't want one clumped from the store.:badday:

Y'know I always wondered if people in 8a thought the same thing. Since I am in 8b I am jealous of Charleston which is zone 9a :rant:. (at least I was born there!) Yeah I have one a P. roebelenii clump with 4 of them. A nearby nursery has one that is relatively tall and is just a singular one. Which is incredibly rare to find one this far north where they don't usually live. I have my eye on it and I might pick it up today.

Edited by General Sylvester D. Palm
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29 minutes ago, General Sylvester D. Palm said:

Y'know I always wondered if people in 8a thought the same thing. Since I am in 8b I am jealous of Charleston which is zone 9a :rant:. (at least I was born there!) Yeah I have one a P. roebelenii clump with 4 of them. A nearby nursery has one that is relatively tall and is just a singular one. Which is incredibly rare to find one this far north where they don't usually live. I have my eye on it and I might pick it up today.

Every zone always look forward to the higher zones cause of all the options for plants and palms but I'm super jealous of single roebellni being available I just want one or 2 :mrlooney:

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On 2/18/2022 at 3:59 PM, SeanK said:

Don't think I would try Livistona in z8. It doesn't recover fast enough. I never saw one on the fall line (Columbus-Macon-Augusta-Columbia).

Even Augusta has robustas in-ground. Mexican Fans can grow 2 dozen leaves a year.

I've seen several fairly decent looking livistona in Augusta, here's two(I need to post these pics in my palms of Augusta thread).

1538690519_Screenshot(112).thumb.png.f46bc35cdacd02c01e81e17b9ac4678a.png

82904146_Screenshot(114).thumb.png.994fb09d88520fa700ca963795d3fa14.png

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The best palm nursery in the Mobile area carries L. chinensis. They do a lot of installations and don't take big risks with them because replacing shabby palms can get expensive.

My own experience was chlorotic-looking the first winter (high 20s a couple of times - failure of recently transplanted root system to take up nutrients?) and unscathed in a nearly-identical second winter. Northern suburbs of Mobile, but only a couple of miles from the Bay.  Against the south side of the house, high live oak canopy.

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