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Swolte

Texas '22 Freeze

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tlow

Not that anyone needed another wake up call, but if you needed a wake up call as to why you should start with S. Minor, S. Birmingham, S. Louisiana, S. Brazoriensis and another handful of hardy Sabals here in North Texas, you just got it... again.... they didn't need covering, you don't need to fuss, worry or be concerned.. ever... Tony's thread really tells the story.  The Sabal variety is so rich, and tough as nails.  Once you plant your foundation, move on to something more delicate.  Our Bermudanas, albeit young plants, barely blinked when we hit 17 a few weeks ago.  The rest didn't even realize we had cold.

I'm sure this will ruffle feathers, but I can't imagine being outside every year getting up 10-30' to cover a palm with heat cables, pre-built structures, and more.. baffles me..  This freeze event, was really a big nothingburger.

For reference, the low for 2022 was 17.2F on 1/21 and this week our low was only 19F.

 

Edited by tlow
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Allen
1 hour ago, tlow said:

Not that anyone needed another wake up call, but if you needed a wake up call as to why you should start with S. Minor, S. Birmingham, S. Louisiana, S. Brazoriensis and another handful of hardy Sabals here in North Texas, you just got it... again.... they didn't need covering, you don't need to fuss, worry or be concerned.. ever... Tony's thread really tells the story.  The Sabal variety is so rich, and tough as nails.  Once you plant your foundation, move on to something more delicate.  Our Bermudanas, albeit young plants, barely blinked when we hit 17 a few weeks ago.  The rest didn't even realize we had cold.

I'm sure this will ruffle feathers, but I can't imagine being outside every year getting up 10-30' to cover a palm with heat cables, pre-built structures, and more.. baffles me..  This freeze event, was really a big nothingburger.

For reference, the low for 2022 was 17.2F on 1/21 and this week our low was only 19F.

 

I'm all for what you're saying except the growth rate makes it so if you plant sabals as potted specimens (Which you'll have to except a Palmetto), you won't have a trunked palm for a decade as opposed to a Trachy or a Washingtonia which will be just a few years.   So I think you should still plant them if you are in zone 8a especially for the variety and the speed.  That way at least you'll have a trunked palm while you're waiting on the Sabals.  Or plant some trunked palmetto.   I've also got palmetto, brazoria and louisiana planted that have done about the same way, they are just hard to get comparison photos of like the one below.

Here is a Birmingham and fortunei planted.  The birmingham was planted out a year or 2 earlier than the fortunei.  The fortunei was planted with about a 6" trunk and 3' tall .  Actually I mislabeled the 2022 trunk size on the fortunei.  It's closer to 7' trunk now. 

Untitled-1.jpg

Edited by Allen
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tlow
2 minutes ago, Allen said:

I'm all for what you're saying except the growth rate makes it so if you plant sabals as potted specimens (Which you'll have to except a Palmetto), you won't have a trunked palm for a decade as opposed to a Trachy or a Washingtonia which will be just a few years.   So I think you should still plant them if you are in zone 8a especially for the variety and the speed.  That way at least you'll have a trunked palm while you're waiting on the Sabals.  Or plant some trunked palmetto. 

Untitled-1.jpg

I get it.. That's why I said start with a base of good sabals (especially here in DFW) that are bulletproof, let them go, never cover, never worry and sit inside sitting some whiskey while we get our minimal winter events.  If you want to venture on top of that, go Trachy, try something else.  I myself have acquired 2x Jubea Chilensis that I will put in the ground this year after seeing Tony's minimal protection on his from last year.  Those are slower than molasses, but it's venturing outside of the Sabals.  Worst case we get another armageddon and you still have your bulletproof palms.  I think we are saying the same thing, trust me.  I just say start bulletproof, plant a lot of them, and then go toward the more marginal (if you have the energy to cover constantly and baby them) not the other way around.  Sabals should bet he foundation of your structure, not the roof folks!

Also, please, please for the love of all that is good... Zone 8a... stop planting Washies.  Robusta, or Filifera... stop!

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Swolte

Saturday morning hitting 15F. Have to admit its frustrating when predictions are 9F degrees off (they were perfect yesterday).  I will likely lose, and have damage on, more plants this year than last. Luckily the garden has also been maturing each year and several more established plants should be OK from their roots.

Freezet.jpg

Edited by Swolte
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Jesse PNW

@Allen that Trahcycarpus is a rocket!  You better anchor that thing to the ground before it reaches escape velocity. 

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Las Palmas Norte
25 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

@Allen that Trahcycarpus is a rocket!  You better anchor that thing to the ground before it reaches escape velocity. 

No kidding. After 40 years of exotic gardening, I've never seen a Windmill palm grow 6 feet of trunk in 2 years. Around these parts, a foot of trunk per year is considered good. That one's ready for the Guinness Book of Records. :) 

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Allen
18 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

No kidding. After 40 years of exotic gardening, I've never seen a Windmill palm grow 6 feet of trunk in 2 years. Around these parts, a foot of trunk per year is considered good. That one's ready for the Guinness Book of Records. :) 

I've got 2 others doing the same thing.  I'm going to go easy on the palmgain soon because I don't want the palms to get super tall ideally because they start getting too tall for my backyard look.  Here are the trunk measurements on that one in the photo.  I need to start doing these measurements the same month each year. I just do them when I feel like it.   You can go look at my Youtube if you want to see progression on the palms over the years,  TN Tropics

6/1/2019 14"

8/2020 36"

12/2020 48"

7/2021 62"

10/2021 74"

Edited by Allen
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tlow

So I just went outside and uncovered the 24 palms (all first year winters, they will NEVER be protected again) and literally they look like nothing happened.  I realize it takes time to see damage, but I have seen damage in the past, and this doesn't look like anything... I probably didn't need to cover any of these but whatever, it was their first year.

I left one of each type uncovered just as a trial, and there was no visible difference between the protected, and unprotected ones.  Bring on spring... These are all ready to rocket this year.

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GregVirginia7
15 hours ago, BobStrauss said:

You’re right, really wasn’t bad temperature-wise, and this winter has been great overall. It’s just the whole situation with freezing rain glazing over all exposed foliage that makes me anxious.

NOVA has been fortunate, despite week after week of sub freezing night temps, days have tended to rebound above freezing and give the palms a bit of a break...very few sub freezing nights followed by sub freezing days...Hope this trend continues...my south facing planting zone helps a lot, too...superficial ground freezing is thawed very quickly. Haven’t noticed any deep dirt freezing at all and that’s always a plus. Probably the most challenged palm is the full sun, wet location, unprotected needle...it’s been smashed to the ground twice, bounced back up but has some segment tip damage on the segments that got frozen to the ground but all in all, looks great. I’ve no doubt Spring and a little trimming will make it good as new.

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NBTX11

Hit 24 and 21 the last two nights.  Reaching well above freezing (40's) during the day yesterday.  All in all, not a bad freeze, at least here.

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Allen

We've had several cold dips, earlier in Jan the lowest to 12F I think.  Last night 19F.  The only damage I can see is a few mild spots on a small palmetto.  All sabal left fully unprotected and larger trachy unprotected except trunk wrap over lights.  

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Jesse PNW
1 hour ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

No kidding. After 40 years of exotic gardening, I've never seen a Windmill palm grow 6 feet of trunk in 2 years. Around these parts, a foot of trunk per year is considered good. That one's ready for the Guinness Book of Records. :) 

I think it's more like 2 years since the '22 growing season hasn't begun yet.  

@Allen how close to the brick wall is the base of the trunk? 

Edited by Jesse PNW

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Allen
10 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I think it's more like 2 years since the '22 growing season hasn't begun yet.  

@Allen how close to the brick wall is the base of the trunk? 

@Jesse PNWI think it is 2 feet from the wall to edge of trunk.  Trachy roots are primarily confined to the first 18" from the trunk.  The palm is reaching outward and will miss the roof overhang.  And correction to earlier I think the Birmingham is closer to 4' to that tallest frond.  The growth was during 3 growing seasons 2019, 2020, 2021.  Planted spring 2019

Edited by Allen

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smatofu
4 hours ago, tlow said:

Not that anyone needed another wake up call, but if you needed a wake up call as to why you should start with S. Minor, S. Birmingham, S. Louisiana, S. Brazoriensis and another handful of hardy Sabals here in North Texas, you just got it... again.... they didn't need covering, you don't need to fuss, worry or be concerned.. ever... Tony's thread really tells the story.  The Sabal variety is so rich, and tough as nails.  Once you plant your foundation, move on to something more delicate.  Our Bermudanas, albeit young plants, barely blinked when we hit 17 a few weeks ago.  The rest didn't even realize we had cold.

I'm sure this will ruffle feathers, but I can't imagine being outside every year getting up 10-30' to cover a palm with heat cables, pre-built structures, and more.. baffles me..  This freeze event, was really a big nothingburger.

For reference, the low for 2022 was 17.2F on 1/21 and this week our low was only 19F.

 

When it comes to palm freeze survival, there is nothing 100% guaranteed. It is more of a probability of survival. For example, my Sabal Mexicana is 95% likely to survive 25F, 90% 20F, 80% 15F, 50% 10F, etc.   Big palms (>20 ft of trunk) have values going into thousands dollars. I wrap with heating cable (this year) and blankets (every year) because I want to reduce the risk to minimum.

Winter 2021 I lost two 15-year old sagos and 6-ft trachy. 

 

Also, the weather is always unpredictable. It could swing 10F lower. Better safe than sorry.

 

Edited by smatofu

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tlow
1 hour ago, smatofu said:

When it comes to palm freeze survival, there is nothing 100% guaranteed. It is more of a probability of survival. For example, my Sabal Mexicana is 95% likely to survive 25F, 90% 20F, 80% 15F, 50% 10F, etc.   Big palms (>20 ft of trunk) have values going into thousands dollars. I wrap with heating cable (this year) and blankets (every year) because I want to reduce the risk to minimum.

Winter 2021 I lost two 15-year old sagos and 6-ft trachy. 

 

Also, the weather is always unpredictable. It could swing 10F lower. Better safe than sorry.

 

Well... Sagos are sagos, and trachys are trachys.  Neither is even close to the Sabals listed above... Nothing is 100% but when you see the species around here that have made it through literally anything, it's a no brainer.  Not to mention, I would take the look and stature of a sabal over anything all day long but to each their own. 

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Xenon

Lovely 2 nights of 25F and a gazillion hours below freezing :rolleyes:

Chocolate king palm (no protection)

PXL_20220205_195317202_MP.thumb.jpg.c597f976c2713968691805839d512080.jpg

Licuala fordiana and Chuniophoenix nana looking suspiciously good (no protection)

PXL_20220205_195542176_MP.thumb.jpg.c19175d4b13f77230a684da133232195.jpg

Lytocaryum hoehnei (no protection)

PXL_20220205_200457435.thumb.jpg.2d1c2083383ec7754dc30cb4b319c196.jpg

 

Rest of the stuff was covered with fabric + plastic (but no heat). Infrared thermometer on the leaves this morning read 33-35F 

Cyphophoenix elegans, Geonoma schottiana, Euterpe edulis, Lanonia dasyantha, Chambeyronia hookeri and some other small stuff

PXL_20220205_195415556.thumb.jpg.172ef060d2e7ef66408e9888c92ca0b1.jpg

PXL_20220205_195450994_MP.thumb.jpg.7184b74bb3ea29c8e1aaf8db2e0978d2.jpg

 

Chambeyronia (Kentiopsis) oliviformis, Chuniophoenix hainanensis and Chambeyronia hookeri 

PXL_20220205_195612351_MP.thumb.jpg.49173d12983c4f27ec05a3d201333743.jpg

Edited by Xenon
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GoatLockerGuns
30 minutes ago, tlow said:

Well... Sagos are sagos, and trachys are trachys.  Neither is even close to the Sabals listed above... Nothing is 100% but when you see the species around here that have made it through literally anything, it's a no brainer.  Not to mention, I would take the look and stature of a sabal over anything all day long but to each their own.

Concur.  My juvenile Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei (2 foot of trunk) completely defoliated last winter (with spear pull on the Trachycarpus fortunei); however, my Sabal minor (adults) and Sabal mexicana (juveniles) made it through with ZERO damage.  Also, my nine year old Sabal palmetto only had minor burn on the frond tips.  I did not fully appreciate the hardiness of the North American Sabal sps. until last winter and 6F.  Not impossible to kill them with those single digit and teen degrees Fahrenheit temperatures; but highly unlikely.  Notwithstanding their slow growth rate, the risk vs return on investment with those Sabal sps. is a no brainier.  Side note: The Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei  aforementioned did survive though, and grew like gangbusters during the relatively pleasant Texas summer that followed last year.

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tlow
2 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Concur.  My juvenile Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei (2 foot of trunk) completely defoliated last winter (with spear pull on the Trachycarpus fortunei); however, my Sabal minor (adults) and Sabal mexicana (juveniles) made it through with ZERO damage.  Also, my nine year old Sabal palmetto only had minor burn on the frond tips.  I did not fully appreciate the hardiness of the North American Sabal sps. until last winter and 6F.  Not impossible to kill them with those single digit and teen degrees Fahrenheit temperatures; but highly unlikely.  Notwithstanding their slow growth rate, the risk vs return on investment with those Sabal sps. is a no brainier.  Side note: The Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei  aforementioned did survive though, and grew like gangbusters during the relatively pleasant Texas summer that followed last year.

^^ THIS!  That's what I'm saying.. for all of us here in TX these should be where we start, and expand from here versus everything that starts getting fried in the mid 20's.... It's going to happen guys.. the temps will drop to there, and below even for a bit.  Sabals are a great long term investment... slow and steady.  Not to mention they are big, beautiful, and very tough looking.  The variety in this species is insane.

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amh

I was 15F for the second time this season, so it is actually warmer than usual. The filibustas I planted last year are likely goners, but the various sabals look okay.

5 hours ago, Swolte said:

Saturday morning hitting 15F. Have to admit its frustrating when predictions are 9F degrees off (they were perfect yesterday).  I will likely lose, and have damage on, more plants this year than last. Luckily the garden has also been maturing each year and several more established plants should be OK from their roots.

Freezet.jpg

I have a rule of thumb that when there is no wind or clouds; my temperature will be 10 degrees colder than what is forecast.

29 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Concur.  My juvenile Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei (2 foot of trunk) completely defoliated last winter (with spear pull on the Trachycarpus fortunei); however, my Sabal minor (adults) and Sabal mexicana (juveniles) made it through with ZERO damage.  Also, my nine year old Sabal palmetto only had minor burn on the frond tips.  I did not fully appreciate the hardiness of the North American Sabal sps. until last winter and 6F.  Not impossible to kill them with those single digit and teen degrees Fahrenheit temperatures; but highly unlikely.  Notwithstanding their slow growth rate, the risk vs return on investment with those Sabal sps. is a no brainier.  Side note: The Cycas revoluta and my Trachycarpus fortunei  aforementioned did survive though, and grew like gangbusters during the relatively pleasant Texas summer that followed last year.

The sagos seem to handle any weather event in south Texas and I've never seen a trachycarpus die from cold here.

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Collectorpalms
6 hours ago, Swolte said:

Saturday morning hitting 15F. Have to admit its frustrating when predictions are 9F degrees off (they were perfect yesterday).  I will likely lose, and have damage on, more plants this year than last. Luckily the garden has also been maturing each year and several more established plants should be OK from their roots.

Freezet.jpg

The Folks at the NWS, those that get paid, had 20F for the forecast low in College Station. The airport hit 21fF, at 705 to 710am.

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JohnAndSancho
1 hour ago, amh said:

The sagos seem to handle any weather event in south Texas and I've never seen a trachycarpus die from cold here.

They seem to be bombproof. There's one planted in my apartment complex that was completely unprotected in the 2021 freeze and it's fully recovered and looked like it was throwing pups last time I was on that side of the complex. 

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BobStrauss

I didn’t notice any dead sagos from the 2021 freeze here in San Antonio. Even my neighbor’s unprotected Washingtonias bounced back, and we hit 8F.

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GoatLockerGuns
10 hours ago, BobStrauss said:

I didn’t notice any dead sagos from the 2021 freeze here in San Antonio.

I can't remember where I was exactly, but I have seen one or two around town that did not regrow fronds after the freeze on their main trunks.  I believe they had suckers coming up from the bottom though.  Surprisingly, they were rather large ones (over three solid feet of trunk).

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Exotic Life
On 2/4/2022 at 3:33 PM, UK_Palms said:

Likewise. It’s another year where the warmest parts of Houston (29N) records colder temperatures than central London way up at 51N. That’s crazy when you think about it. I’m not sure whether that says more about how mild London is, or more about the cold potential in Texas during the depths of winter?

 

On 2/4/2022 at 4:04 PM, Xerarch said:

I think it's a testament both to how mild London is and how volatile Texas can be in the winter, I know of nowhere else in the world at the latitude of coastal Texas and on/near the coast that ever gets this cold.  Also don't know of anywhere else as mild as London at that latitude

It has also to do of course with just the geographical details. I don't know everything from US of course but basically it is one big landmass where cold can just travel where here in northwest Europe we have a lot of "warm" water around us and where wind direction is mostly west/southwest.  However, even with this in mind I still find it amazing to see this happening in Texas which is so far south for us. In my mind Texas is a hot place where you have more shorts in your closet than (winter) jackets.  And it makes it feel even more weird when I compare the last few months of winter which have been basically a extended autumn. It even looks like that the Tradescantia nanouk that I planted as summer bedding is going survive.

Hopefully this cold wave stay short lived with not too much damage over there as they had enough last winter I think.

Edited by Exotic Life
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GoatLockerGuns

Early update after this latest freeze event.  Lowest recorded temperature on my property was 21F, with sheets of ice covering everything for two solid days.  IMHO, the ice that accompanied this freeze event was worst than the actual freeze event itself.

This Washingtonia robusta is planted on a hill out in the open, and exposed to all of the wind/elements (elevation: approximately 1300 feet; southwest facing).  It has seen better days:

image.thumb.jpeg.26ad601e3eaf68742c77c088f56d7769.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.7de233d07ed3c1689cab1fbadcf0c1e7.jpeg

I have a smaller one planted up front that has already suffered spear pull.

This Sabal causiarum is planted close to the Washingtonia robusta, and is doing even worst:

image.thumb.jpeg.0b5123650d07f9333f97398e9d0b72c9.jpeg

It suffered spear pull (2 spears) last night.

By comparison, this Washingtonia filifera that is planted up front looks better:

image.thumb.jpeg.e75ebbec41890a8bc42641802f44d8bb.jpeg

Browning/burn is visible on the outer fronds, but the fronds closer to the growing point are still green.

Other than a very juvenile Livistona chinensis that is starting to turn brown, my other planted palms (i.e., Brahea armata, Butia odorataChamaerops humilis var. humilis, Jubaea chilensisNannorrhops ritchieana, Sabal mexicana, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Serenoa repens, and Trachycarpus fortunei) show no signs of damage...yet.  That could change in the coming weeks or months though.

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DreaminAboutPalms

Strapleaf robusta has survived and still has some green. Overall low 21 and covered in ice for 2 days. Planted it on the first of the year to see if it could survive winter 

95E7BF87-568B-40C9-9BD1-4D66E184C3E2.jpeg

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms

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tlow
3 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Strapleaf robusta has survived and still has some green. Overall low 21 and covered in ice for 2 days. Planted it on the first of the year to see if it could survive winter 

95E7BF87-568B-40C9-9BD1-4D66E184C3E2.jpeg

strap leaf everything appears to be hardier and seem to be able to make it through anything.

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GoatLockerGuns
Just now, DreaminAboutPalms said:

Strapleaf robusta has survived and still has some green. Overall low 21 and covered in ice for 2 days

Hope it makes it.  I have another strap leaf Washingtonia robusta that still looks OK as well.  Last year some stuff looked alright at first, and then went downhill a month or so later.  Unfortunately, I suffered spear pull on my 7 year old Jubaea chilensis yesterday.  That was kind of a bummer.

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DreaminAboutPalms
22 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Hope it makes it.  I have another strap leaf Washingtonia robusta that still looks OK as well.  Last year some stuff looked alright at first, and then went downhill a month or so later.  Unfortunately, I suffered spear pull on my 7 year old Jubaea chilensis yesterday.  That was kind of a bummer.

I have another 4 leaf seedling planted outside that looks worse. I’m not too worried though I had close to a hundred at beginning of the week and now Ive planted or got rid of half 

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GoatLockerGuns
13 minutes ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

I’m not too worried though I had close to a hundred at beginning of the week and now Ive planted or got rid of half

Yeah, I have plenty of second string players warming up in the bull pen as well.  I plan on planting some in late February or early March.

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DreaminAboutPalms

North central Austin. Canary has some burn Washingtonia looks pretty much normal other than some burned tips

DE85200B-7A43-40A6-BB30-F04EBA3C3396.jpeg

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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JohnAndSancho
On 2/3/2022 at 9:14 PM, JohnAndSancho said:

Looks like #PatioSquad should be able to go back on the patio by *checks notes* Wednesday. 

I hope I didn't booboo this up - but I brought most of them back outside and watered them. 

 

Then I check the weather and we have a low of 30 Saturday.  Also really wish I had used my collection of leftover bamboo stakes to prop the blanket up over the Washie. Poor thing looks smushed. :bummed:

Message_1644365521002.jpg

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Collectorpalms
8 hours ago, DreaminAboutPalms said:

North central Austin. Canary has some burn Washingtonia looks pretty much normal other than some burned tips

DE85200B-7A43-40A6-BB30-F04EBA3C3396.jpeg

My Canaries are taking on the same look of the older leaves. Yellowing of the outer edges. Looks like not a total fry after 21F.

 

It wont be obvious until we hit a week of 80s.... which is not in the forecast.

Tallest Livistonia chinese is looking fried, but a shorter one looks fairly good. Sad thing is that there are so few plants to worry about really. I have yet to replant any palms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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DreaminAboutPalms

Not looking good. Crown is collapsing 

39177402-ADCA-4E1B-BC54-3B8ABEE7C068.jpeg

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms

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