Why Re trachycarpus fortune so widely planted when they are not the hardiest palm?

[EJPalm05]

Why are trachycarpus fortunei so widely planted when the are not the hardiest palm in the genus and they look kind of ugly in my opinion Not only that but they are pretty expensive! 

[Allen]

fortunei run the gamut from floppy frond to stiff frond and are virtually the only ones grown by major growers.  Niche varieties are hard to find.  fortunei is pretty hardy and not many hard facts back up another variety being much more hardy.  

[Chester B]

20 minutes ago, EJ NJ said:

Why are trachycarpus fortunei so widely planted when the are not the hardiest palm in the genus and they look kind of ugly in my opinion Not only that but they are pretty expensive! 

Fortunei are the hardiest in the genus by a long shot, it's been proven out many times over.  

As far as price, I can't say I think they are any more costly than your average palm for colder zones.  You can buy them around here starting at $15 for 1 or 2 gallon plant, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  Washingtonia start at $20 for the same size, as well as Chamaerops.

[Fallen Munk]

Almost as cheap as dirt around these parts.

[oasis371]

They are relatively inexpensive also easy from seed, they are also the very hardiest of trunking palms.  Are you saying wagnerianus are hardier? Because those are variety of T. fortunei as far as I know.  T. maritanus and lactisectus are both less cold hardy.  I personally think they are all beautiful, but you know what they say about beauty. 

[Fallen Munk]

The "Bulgaria" variant of T. fortunei is likely the most cold hardy palm on the planet.

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, EJ NJ said:

Why are trachycarpus fortunei so widely planted when the are not the hardiest palm in the genus and they look kind of ugly in my opinion Not only that but they are pretty expensive! 

They're cheap where i'm at, and totally cold hardy over much of the west coast,  also very wet tolerant in winter.  One of the fastest growers for cool climates like the Pacific Northwest.   Not the prettiest palm sure, but easy to grow (and fast).   RE: the other Trachycarpus species, some are prettier (and still hardy), but the horticulture industry just happened to put T. fortunei on the market before the others, so it's kinda dominant right now.  That may change over time, with improved awareness & availability of other palms as time goes by.  One can hope.  

[MarkbVet]

33 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

They are relatively inexpensive also easy from seed, they are also the very hardiest of trunking palms.  Are you saying wagnerianus are hardier? Because those are variety of T. fortunei as far as I know.  T. maritanus and lactisectus are both less cold hardy.  I personally think they are all beautiful, but you know what they say about beauty. 

True T. takil may rival fortunei in hardiness...time will tell.   Plantdelights had a true T. takil that survived -1F (-18C).

Edited January 20, 2022 by MarkbVet

[oasis371]

I am starting a bunch of from the Bulgarian strain.

[Trustandi]

I am echoing all the responses above. Our area PNW is the home of trachycarpus! 

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

True T. takil may rival fortunei in hardiness...time will tell.   Plantdelights had a true T. takil that survived -1F (-18C).

I don't want to slam Plantdelights, but they are very "optimistic" with their cold hardiness ratings.  If they actually have a true takil and it survived -1F that's great, but it's only one data point, whereas we have countless reports of regular fortunei surviving those kind of temps. There are the takils in Salt Lake City, but they get some good protection over winter.  The rest of the true takils seem to be located from Seattle to California so not exactly in areas where they will be really tested.  Anecdotally I can say the takil that I have spear pulled its first winter at 25F, never have had a fortunei, or any other Trachy species do that.  So call me skeptical 

[Fallen Munk]

1 hour ago, oasis371 said:

I am starting a bunch of from the Bulgarian strain.

I've got about 100 of those starting to go palmate.  Vigorous germination and growth rate.  Seeds came from Canada. 

Be forewarned that last summer I ordered seeds listed as Bulgaria from an ebay seller in Las Vegas.  Not only did they have very poor germination rates but they do not appear to be Bulgaria, just regular fortunei.

[Fallen Munk]

3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

 Anecdotally I can say the takil that I have spear pulled its first winter at 25F, never have had a fortunei, or any other Trachy species do that.  So call me skeptical 

Sorry to hear that.  I have a takil that is doing great, although it could be nainital.  I don't know how to tell the difference but it was sold as takil from Raintree.

[MarkbVet]

4 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I don't want to slam Plantdelights, but they are very "optimistic" with their cold hardiness ratings.  If they actually have a true takil and it survived -1F that's great, but it's only one data point, whereas we have countless reports of regular fortunei surviving those kind of temps. There are the takils in Salt Lake City, but they get some good protection over winter.  The rest of the true takils seem to be located from Seattle to California so not exactly in areas where they will be really tested.  Anecdotally I can say the takil that I have spear pulled its first winter at 25F, never have had a fortunei, or any other Trachy species do that.  So call me skeptical 

Yes...which is why I said 'time will tell' lol.   Fortunei's are very hardy!  

[MarkbVet]

Just now, Fallen Munk said:

Sorry to hear that.  I have a takil that is doing great, although it could be nainital.  I don't know how to tell the difference but it was sold as takil from Raintree.

Raintree's tend to be nainital.  Yours, I dunno. 

[Chester B]

7 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

Sorry to hear that.  I have a takil that is doing great, although it could be nainital.  I don't know how to tell the difference but it was sold as takil from Raintree.

Those ones are Nainital.  Takil are slender palms, whereas those things at Raintree are beasts.  

Photos of a good example of what I understand Takil to look like - stolen from @Paradise Found

The palms in the beginning of this video are supposed to be Takils.  I didn't realize when I shot it.  My only issue with these ones were they were pretty hairy, and descriptions of takil say they have tight fibers.  But you can see the similarities with the palm above.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Chester B

[maskedmole]

Well it is the most cold hardy trunking palm that is easily available. I mean you have other varieties of trachycarpus but most are a little hard to obtain or have to be grown from seed which takes forever. I personally love the look of fortunei and i think I prefer it's look over sabal palmetto.

Trachy is the hardiest genus and fortunei at 5 degrees hardy established and that is very hardy

Edited January 20, 2022 by maskedmole

[teddytn]

I remember a while back before I joined PT, just random internet searches of Trachycarpus would always lead to a trashycarpus post or three some places. Just to play both sides of this when Trachycarpus look bad they can be straight up ugly. Especially if they had a rough winter, that next growing season they can look awkward. On the other hand though, we’ll grown specimens in a climate best suited for them like the PNW are some of the most graceful, gorgeous and well fitting woodland palms period in my opinion. I have noticed the new info posted most places does have Takil rated as hardier than fortunei, but based on what info I’m unsure.

[Jimhardy]

Are you headed over to the corvette forum next to tell people they are ugly ? Asking for a friend.

[MarkbVet]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

Those ones are Nainital.  Takil are slender palms, whereas those things at Raintree are beasts.  

Photos of a good example of what I understand Takil to look like - stolen from @Paradise Found

The palms in the beginning of this video are supposed to be Takils.  I didn't realize when I shot it.  My only issue with these ones were they were pretty hairy, and descriptions of takil say they have tight fibers.  But you can see the similarities with the palm above.

 

yeah, reminds me of Trachycarpus var. 'nova' (formerly T. princeps 'green form')... thin trunks, good sized leaves.  I really want a nova, very cool looking!

Edited January 20, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

30 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

Are you headed over to the corvette forum next to tell people they are ugly ? Asking for a friend.

Which model?  hehehe  (I like em all)

[Jimhardy]

That was to the original poster 

Nice pictures of Takil,where is that one growing?

 

[EJPalm05]

I just don't like them and I think they are over planted!

[Brad Mondel]

Trachycarpus are variable, some are beasts and some are wimps. 

 

There's a very tall one nearby that's very skinny. I like the fat trunks so Sabals are considered better looking in my opinion. Although slightly less hardy. 

[MSX]

You can clean up the fiber or old boots on your trachycarpus palm tree trunk to make it look different and refreshed, though it  must be loosing some (if not all??) of its remarkable hardiness by doing this

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23599-trachycarpus-fortunei-pics-cleaned-trunk-please/

Edited January 20, 2022 by MSX

[Jimhardy]

One issue with cold hardiness with Takil could be where the seeds are harvested from'

I do believe you need to get seeds from the ones growing at 6000' to 8000' rather than 

getting them from the ones at the bottom of the mountain.....still,they should have the good DNA.

When I E-Mailed the guy(I forget his name) about the conditions there he said up to 3' of snow

per year and low temps around 15F...I would guess they are not damaged by this there and really

15F(or less) is about where you would expect to start seeing damage to Fortunei leaves.

[Jimhardy]

I found the E-Mail,here are the goods.

Dear Mr.Jim  ,

Greetings & thank you very much for your email.

As i took Alexander Nijman to see Takil in Munsayri Kalamuni Area.
which is surrounded by dense forest and it is only grow in this place
in Uttarakhand. Weather in winter is not so bad here there is only 4-5
ft snow fall in this place at an altitute 2700mt. about temperature

falls around -5to -10 at night day time almost 10 degree centigrade. 

I will get back to you with other information about Martianus grows.


Best regards,
Narendra Kumar

 

[Vic]

21 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

I've got about 100 of those starting to go palmate.  Vigorous germination and growth rate.  Seeds came from Canada. 

Be forewarned that last summer I ordered seeds listed as Bulgaria from an ebay seller in Las Vegas.  Not only did they have very poor germination rates but they do not appear to be Bulgaria, just regular fortunei.

This comment is interesting. Are you saying there are visual differences between fortunei and the Bulgaria form of fortunei after less than 2 years? I’m growing Bulgaria from the original source and can’t tell the difference. 

[Chester B]

Thanks @Jimhardy interesting.  Too bad there wasn't even more information about their environment.

[SeanK]

23 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

True T. takil may rival fortunei in hardiness...time will tell.   Plantdelights had a true T. takil that survived -1F (-18C).

Define "survive". There is a lot of variation among T.fortunei. I have heard of T.takil for almost 20 years but don't know that I've ever seen one grown or sold commercially.

Generally, most palm growers are interested in them as landscape subjects. So to most folks every Trachycarpus looks the same. In fact most can't distinguish between T.fortunei and Thrinax radiata. Also, Trachycarpus is the only palm that really tolerates frozen precipitation in its bud. Forget Butia. Sabals and Chamaerops are iffy.

[MarkbVet]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

Define "survive". There is a lot of variation among T.fortunei. I have heard of T.takil for almost 20 years but don't know that I've ever seen one grown or sold commercially.

Generally, most palm growers are interested in them as landscape subjects. So to most folks every Trachycarpus looks the same. In fact most can't distinguish between T.fortunei and Thrinax radiata. Also, Trachycarpus is the only palm that really tolerates frozen precipitation in its bud. Forget Butia. Sabals and Chamaerops are iffy.

Needle palms will tolerate all sorts of cold & frozen conditions... Sabal minor as well, wet or not... in fact, those survive even in boggy conditions.  Regardless of what the common public palm buyer can distinguish,  I can tell them apart, and some Trachy species look a LOT different than T. fortunei (to me).  The average Joe may find ALL palmate trees look alike to them, even Washingtonias versus Trachy's... doesn't mean they really ARE alike, if one takes the time to know them.    T. fortunei has variation, true, but the reason you haven't seen T. takil is partly due to T. fortunei dominating the market, AND true T. takil seed has only recently found its way into the marketplace-- prior to that, seed collectors had mistakenly sold Trachy "Nainital' as T. takil.    Doesn't mean T. takil doesn't exist... and it does look different from T. fortunei, at least to the informed buyer.  I don't really care what the uninformed buyer thinks lol.   

T. takil is by far not the only palm that's uncommon in the open marketplace; part of the challenge is to find good sources for hardy and beautiful palm species that are not commonly found in average nurseries.  There are definitely good sources, if one knows where to look; being on PalmTalk has increased my awareness of these palm sources even over just a few months' time.  Welcome to the site, by the way.  :-)

As far as 'define survive'  I'm not quite sure I get the question...survive means 'didn't die'-- right?   According to the nursery that reported the plant surviving -1F, it lost some foliage but recovered nicely, without protection.   Does that satisfy the definition of 'survived'?  And BTW, my Butia has survived w/o damage with frozen precipitation on its terminal growth bud.   Not 5F frozen, but frozen nonetheless lol.  

Edited January 21, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Chester B]

I have the same observations as you do @MarkbVet my Butias have had ice in the growing point without damage or spear pull, same with Chamaerops, Sabal (various species) and Rhapidophyllum.  I think most of these palms are adapted to this and the ones native to the SE USA most definitely are - and thankfully so.

[Jtee]

I happen to think smaller trachy’s are good looking palms. But when they start getting a tall trunk I think they are ugly. I don’t really care for the hairy trunk that gets narrow at the bottom. I’ve noticed through out the years they have gotten more expensive, they use to be the cheapest palms I could get several years ago. 

[Palmlex]

6 minutes ago, Jtee said:

I happen to think smaller trachy’s are good looking palms. But when they start getting a tall trunk I think they are ugly. I don’t really care for the hairy trunk that gets narrow at the bottom. I’ve noticed through out the years they have gotten more expensive, they use to be the cheapest palms I could get several years ago. 

I'm not really sure what the reason for that is, but they're very variable. Yes, some look pretty weird with a tall and/or thick trunk and a very sparse crown, but others somehow manage to hold on to lots of fronds and I think they look comparable to a Sabal Palmetto. Sabal's trunk is prettier though and has larger fronds.

But for people like me, well, I can't grow or even find Sabal Palmettos, so I have to love my Trachys because it's what I have.  

[Jtee]

4 minutes ago, Palmlex said:

I'm not really sure what the reason for that is, but they're very variable. Yes, some look pretty weird with a tall and/or thick trunk and a very sparse crown, but others somehow manage to hold on to lots of fronds and I think they look comparable to a Sabal Palmetto. Sabal's trunk is prettier though and has larger fronds.

But for people like me, well, I can't grow or even find Sabal Palmettos, so I have to love my Trachys because it's what I have.  

I’ve noticed some vary also. I had this beautiful windmill palm growing outside the San Antonio area in a shady spot. It grew like crazy and always was perfectly green. I like that the fronds were even on the bottom of the trunk. Now I have the typical looking windmill palm. I don’t know why they vary. 

[Fallen Munk]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:54 PM, Vic said:

This comment is interesting. Are you saying there are visual differences between fortunei and the Bulgaria form of fortunei after less than 2 years? I’m growing Bulgaria from the original source and can’t tell the difference. 

I germinated 20 Bulgaria, 20 fortunei and 20 of your waggie X princeps all at the same time.  The Bulgaria had twice the growth rate and is double the size of the other two.

[Fallen Munk]

23 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

 but the reason you haven't seen T. takil is partly due to T. fortunei dominating the market, AND true T. takil seed has only recently found its way into the marketplace--

There is one other factor that I have discovered.  I can't get them to germinate at any ratio that would be considered acceptable for mass production.

[Henoh]

Takil as seedling and young palm is also ultra slow compared to fortunei. 

[Vic]

5 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

I germinated 20 Bulgaria, 20 fortunei and 20 of your waggie X princeps all at the same time.  The Bulgaria had twice the growth rate and is double the size of the other two.

Ok. Interesting. 

[SeanK]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:16 PM, MarkbVet said:

Needle palms will tolerate all sorts of cold & frozen conditions... Sabal minor as well, wet or not... in fact, those survive even in boggy conditions.  Regardless of what the common public palm buyer can distinguish,  I can tell them apart, and some Trachy species look a LOT different than T. fortunei (to me).  The average Joe may find ALL palmate trees look alike to them, even Washingtonias versus Trachy's... doesn't mean they really ARE alike, if one takes the time to know them.    T. fortunei has variation, true, but the reason you haven't seen T. takil is partly due to T. fortunei dominating the market, AND true T. takil seed has only recently found its way into the marketplace-- prior to that, seed collectors had mistakenly sold Trachy "Nainital' as T. takil.    Doesn't mean T. takil doesn't exist... and it does look different from T. fortunei, at least to the informed buyer.  I don't really care what the uninformed buyer thinks lol.   

T. takil is by far not the only palm that's uncommon in the open marketplace; part of the challenge is to find good sources for hardy and beautiful palm species that are not commonly found in average nurseries.  There are definitely good sources, if one knows where to look; being on PalmTalk has increased my awareness of these palm sources even over just a few months' time.  Welcome to the site, by the way.  :-)

As far as 'define survive'  I'm not quite sure I get the question...survive means 'didn't die'-- right?   According to the nursery that reported the plant surviving -1F, it lost some foliage but recovered nicely, without protection.   Does that satisfy the definition of 'survived'?  And BTW, my Butia has survived w/o damage with frozen precipitation on its terminal growth bud.   Not 5F frozen, but frozen nonetheless lol.  

Let's go back to the original question.

Most palms planted in landscapes are there to create an effect.

I stand by what I said. 95%+ of the public cannot distinguish between between any Trachycarpus or between Trachycarpus and Thrinax. I don't find folks on the west coast too reliable w.r.t. cold-hardiness claims; likewise those who live in the desert where temps rebound 40Fº.  I can't see dropping $1000s on palms that defoliate, each winter, pencil, then die. It'll be interesting to see what Phoenix and Butia look like in Myrtle Beach come July 4th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdK5MXsI24