Less common Sabals in the Pacific NW?

[MarkbVet]

Hey everyone,  I'm curious if anyone has tried growing some of the less commonly-discussed Sabals in the northwest... e.g. Sabal Rosei, S. bermudana, S. mexicana,  Sabal 'brazoriensis' or brazoria,  etc.    Feel free to chime in if you're also growing S. palmetto, S. birmingham,  or any other trunking Sabal. How about Sabal "Oregon" from Desertscape nursery, possibly a hybrid of  birmingham with another palm, supposedly cold hardy and faster growing than usual birmingham.   Hit me with your best wisdom & experience!!

[Trustandi]

@MarkbVet well, @Chester B is the person you want to talk to for sabals in our area.  He got me hooked on sabal minor and sabal brazoriensis  Both of my sabals were planted in the ground last spring. I covered them with a small cardboard and pot without any heat source during the below freezing days. So far, i don't notice any damage on them.

[MarkbVet]

yeah both of those should be winter hardy here, especially S. minor, it's rock solid.  Curious as to any less-common types;  multiple sources peg all the ones I listed as fairly likely to survive in zone 8.   Sabals often look a bit alike, but some of the larger trunking ones are enticing.  Even S. palmetto may do ok here, though it's a bit less hardy than some.   There's a nice large one at RainTree nursery in Silverton, unprotected.

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[ShadyDan]

I wish I could get my hands on some of those, especially bermudana, but Sabals are exceedingly hard to find in my part of the world. 
 

In my garden, I have S. minor and S. palmetto. Both have been in the ground for 2 years now and have done quite well for me, considering the amount of heat I get. Last summer the minor put out 4.5 fronds and the palmetto 2.5. I’m going to get rid of some cedar hedges but the palmetto soon, that will open it up to some more sunlight and water. 
 

In my greenhouse, I have S. minor, S palmetto, S. uresana, and S. brazoria. All are absolute snails in container culture, even with all the extra heat and infinite water + fertilizer. 

[MarkbVet]

@ShadyDan  urbantropicals.com lists S. bermudana (though they're not shipping this time of year).   They have a lot of species variety!   Hmmm surprised your S. minor is outpacing the palmetto, but may be various factors, as you say, low levels of sun/ heat etc could slow the S. palmetto a bit (especially if it's young).  I have S uresana as well, love the bluish leaves!  Mine is small, has a single large palmate leaf right now.   Thanks for the input-- I won't expect too much growth while they're in pots.  Will be years before I move them into the ground when I move to So. Oregon.   With Sabals' sensitivity to root damage, I don't want to plant them and then have to dig em up to move later.  I'll keep them in decent sized pots to allow for root development, and water/fertilize well, which may speed their growth a bit. Good luck with yours!!  Any plans to put them in the ground eventually?

 

[Chester B]

I’ll try and remember what I have. 
 

S minor - unknown variety

S minor McCurtain - grown from seed

S palmetto 

S palmetto “Lisa”

S uresana “highlands form”

S Louisiana 

S causiarum

S “Riverside”

S “Birmingham”

S “Oregon”

S brazoriensis - this currently is the only one that sets seed.  It’s taller than me now  

I had S mexicana that I grew from seed but the bugs really liked  them for some reason. 

S bermudana is probably the one I’d like to get next. 

They all seem to grow at different rates. But the key is the hotter the spot the better and lots of water. Plus the bigger they get the faster they grow. It often takes until the third year in the ground for them to really take off. 
 

If you’ve been to Raintree they have that giant Palmetto in front of that first barn. Very beastly and it does flower. 
 

S brazoriensis is my fastest grower followed by minor and causiarum. Causiarum started growing right away so I have high hopes as these get bigger. They have fan leaves but they’re only a couple years old and about 2 foot in height. 
 

The other thing I like about them is they are more wind tolerant and always look much better in spring compared to a Trachy. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Chester B

[MarkbVet]

@Chester B   how long have your plants been in the ground?  Any winter protection?   Any of them stand out as faster growing?  Yes, the palmetto at Raintree is nice!  Everyone seems to say water & fertilize plenty  to get Sabals to grow.  I've got a few species, plan on trying more in the future!  Did your 'lisa' end up with the fused leaves?  From Raintree?  I hear you can't always tell until they grow a bit whether the fused trait will manifest. 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Chester B]

I started planting them over 5 years ago with the more recent ones a couple years back. The only ones I’ve helped are the causiarum. I’m not sure if I need to but it’s easy when they’re small. I put a pot over them for last years ice storm. This year I threw mini lights and a pot. But I did leave one unprotected so we’ll see. 
 

There is a triple S minor in a commercial planting across from Clackamas Town Center. I’m not sure if it gets irrigation, but they do flower and set seed. It’s a very exposed location.  Minors are bulletproof here. - expect 2-3 fronds per year. 
 

Brazoria, minor and Causiarum are the fastest. 
 

Uresana and “Lisa” are the slowest. 
 

I don’t understand why Sabals and needle palms aren’t more common here. 

[MarkbVet]

40 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I started planting them over 5 years ago with the more recent ones a couple years back. The only ones I’ve helped are the causiarum. I’m not sure if I need to but it’s easy when they’re small. I put a pot over them for last years ice storm. This year I threw mini lights and a pot. But I did leave one unprotected so we’ll see. 
 

There is a triple S minor in a commercial planting across from Clackamas Town Center. I’m not sure if it gets irrigation, but they do flower and set seed. It’s a very exposed location.  Minors are bulletproof here. - expect 2-3 fronds per year. 
 

Brazoria, minor and Causiarum are the fastest. 
 

Uresana and “Lisa” are the slowest. 
 

I don’t understand why Sabals and needle palms aren’t more common here. 

I suspect uresana will take heat to get it to really go...hoping for good things in So. Oregon.  Such a nice color on those!  ... is your Birmingham slow?  Despite being trunking, I hear it can really crawl along, at least when young.  Some people have reported causarium surviving really low temps, so hopefully you won't have to protect yours forever.  i'd like to see bermudana and mexicana tried too..good chance for zone 8 hardiness.  UrbanTropicals has bermudana and mexicana.  Sorry, I missed your comments re: which grew fastest on your first post, and asked again lol.  Thanks for answering-- twice.   

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[Trustandi]

Sabal uresana is gorgeous looking. It is too bad, it will grow like molasses in my garden.

[MarkbVet]

25 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

Sabal uresana is gorgeous looking. It is too bad, it will grow like molasses in my garden.

Sadly, it may live, but not thrive & grow fast, unless it can get some summer heat.  Good fertilizing & watering during growing season should help, as long as you have soil that drains well.  If it's in the ground, it may eventually pick up speed after a few years.  Until then... gotta be patient!  But it's beautiful in color!  I'm kinda infatuated with blue-green palms, really bummed I can't grow Bismarckia nobilis!   But I'm working with 5 blue/silver palms:  Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera, Brahea armata,  Nannarrhops ritchiana,  Sabal uresana, and Trithrinax campestris.  All in pots until I move to a more mediterranean climate zone with hotter summers/drier winters; there I hope most--or all-- may survive w/o protection once established.   I guess I can add a 6th:  I've got a silver saw palmetto on its way.  Also my Butia odorata is blue-green (though not strongly so).  

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[ShadyDan]

1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

@ShadyDan  urbantropicals.com lists S. bermudana (though they're not shipping this time of year).   They have a lot of species variety!   Hmmm surprised your S. minor is outpacing the palmetto, but may be various factors, as you say, low levels of sun/ heat etc could slow the S. palmetto a bit (especially if it's young).  I have S uresana as well, love the bluish leaves!  Mine is small, has a single large palmate leaf right now.   Thanks for the input-- I won't expect too much growth while they're in pots.  Will be years before I move them into the ground when I move to So. Oregon.   With Sabals' sensitivity to root damage, I don't want to plant them and then have to dig em up to move later.  I'll keep them in decent sized pots to allow for root development, and water/fertilize well, which may speed their growth a bit. Good luck with yours!!  Any plans to put them in the ground eventually?

 

Unfortunately that site does not ship to Canada, like many others. Either I pay big $$$ for a phyto or I go down myself and smuggle some back haha. 
 

Yea my minor is planted against the S wall of my house so it gets tons of reflected heat. I usually dump my old fish tank water there too as my Mandarin is right beside it for water and nutrients in the summer. Pretty ideal spot to be in for a Sabal. 

 

that’s good thinking for the Sabals.  They do speed up a little as they get larger in pots, but while they are in the strap leaf stage it’s painfully slow. I’ll probably be out of room at my place to put any more Sabals in the ground by the time they are large enough, but maybe I’ll find a bigger property by then. 

[Paradise Found]

I have one Sabal Burmudana.  5 gallon in the ground for 5 years.  doing ok. 

 

[Chester B]

@MarkbVet here's my S brazoriensis after the freeze.

 

[Trustandi]

12 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Sadly, it may live, but not thrive & grow fast, unless it can get some summer heat.  Good fertilizing & watering during growing season should help, as long as you have soil that drains well.  If it's in the ground, it may eventually pick up speed after a few years.  Until then... gotta be patient!  But it's beautiful in color!  I'm kinda infatuated with blue-green palms, really bummed I can't grow Bismarckia nobilis!   But I'm working with 5 blue/silver palms:  Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera, Brahea armata,  Nannarrhops ritchiana,  Sabal uresana, and Trithrinax campestris.  All in pots until I move to a more mediterranean climate zone with hotter summers/drier winters; there I hope most--or all-- may survive w/o protection once established.   I guess I can add a 6th:  I've got a silver saw palmetto on its way.  Also my Butia odorata is blue-green (though not strongly so).  

If you like blue/green palm, try to look for Brahea clara. It is much faster growing in our gloomy and cool weather than sabals.  

I like Bismarckia nobilis too.  I saw them during my trip to Singapore and Mexico. I really wish we could grow it here. 

[MarkbVet]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

@MarkbVet here's my S brazoriensis after the freeze.

 

Hey, it's almost got a trunk!  Nice plant!

 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Banana Joe on Salt Spring Island (British Columbia) sometimes reports on a S. rosei growing there.

 

 

[MarkbVet]

2 hours ago, Trustandi said:

If you like blue/green palm, try to look for Brahea clara. It is much faster growing in our gloomy and cool weather than sabals.  

I like Bismarckia nobilis too.  I saw them during my trip to Singapore and Mexico. I really wish we could grow it here. 

Hmm,  I've had B. clara on my list of 'wanna try' plants,  supposedly similar in hardiness (?) to B. armata, but not sure about its rain tolerance.  You get plenty wet up where you are, do you have to protect your plant in winter?  Sounds like it maybe grows faster than B. armata?    I got good news re: Nannorrhops ritchiana today,  it doesn't like rain, but I know a nursery guy in central Oregon (dry & cold there) who grows it in zone 6b, says it seems about as cold hardy as Sabal minor  and needle palms!  Of course my main worry with N. ritchiana is winter rain, i'm protecting it here.   My hope was that it would be ok unprotected in So. Oregon where i'll move in 5 years or so.  The good news is the nursery guy said he used to be located in Grants Pass in So. Oregon, same climate as where I'll move to, and ritchiana did fine down there!  Yay!  That's a nice lookin' palm, even my baby seedling is silver.  And it's not the "Arabica" variety which is less hardy.    Where did u get your B. clara?

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

33 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Banana Joe on Salt Spring Island (British Columbia) sometimes reports on a S. rosei growing there.

 

 

Thanks for sharing!!  If Joe can grow it there, I can grow it here.... it can grow faster w/ more summer heat than Joe gets, and it grows tall.   Was most concerned with rain tolerance, but that question looks answered!  Adding it to my list of palms to try!!  

[Chester B]

Apparently Brahea brandegeei is faster growing and wet tolerant and could be suitable for our climate.  This is the one I would most like to try.

B edulis will do well too, but its green.

[MarkbVet]

3 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Apparently Brahea brandegeei is faster growing and wet tolerant and could be suitable for our climate.  This is the one I would most like to try.

B edulis will do well too, but its green.

Yes, and perhaps Brahea 'super silver' also...

[MarkbVet]

8 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Apparently Brahea brandegeei is faster growing and wet tolerant and could be suitable for our climate.  This is the one I would most like to try.

B edulis will do well too, but its green.

edulis i'd suspect would be hardy here; brandegeei tolerates humidity ok but I'm not sure about its cold hardiness.  It's also mostly green to grey-green color, which is fine.   Fast grower though!   I do want to try B. clara at some point for sure; pretty color, droopy leaf tips, supposedly a wild hybrid of B. armata but more moisture tolerant. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by MarkbVet

[MarkbVet]

@Chester B  ever thought about Brahea nari (nuri)?

[Chester B]

31 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

@Chester B  ever thought about Brahea nari (nuri)?

I've never heard of it to be honest.  You could always ask in the main discussion forum.  Lots of the California gardeners there who grow Braheas.  I know its not quite the same but any info would be good.

[Trustandi]

3 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Hmm,  I've had B. clara on my list of 'wanna try' plants,  supposedly similar in hardiness (?) to B. armata, but not sure about its rain tolerance.  You get plenty wet up where you are, do you have to protect your plant in winter?  Sounds like it maybe grows faster than B. armata?    I got good news re: Nannorrhops ritchiana today,  it doesn't like rain, but I know a nursery guy in central Oregon (dry & cold there) who grows it in zone 6b, says it seems about as cold hardy as Sabal minor  and needle palms!  Of course my main worry with N. ritchiana is winter rain, i'm protecting it here.   My hope was that it would be ok unprotected in So. Oregon where i'll move in 5 years or so.  The good news is the nursery guy said he used to be located in Grants Pass in So. Oregon, same climate as where I'll move to, and ritchiana did fine down there!  Yay!  That's a nice lookin' palm, even my baby seedling is silver.  And it's not the "Arabica" variety which is less hardy.    Where did u get your B. clara?

Brahea clara has similar hardiness or maybe a tad less compared to armata. The Claras handle the rain great unprotected unlike my armata. My armata keeps losing its one or two fronds in late spring.  I did get the Claras from Phil - jungle music, Tejas tropical, and Texas cold hardy.  

Nannorrhops ritchiana will not be very happy here if I can't provide permanent rain cover.

[Chester B]

@Trustandi that Brahea looks great, now I definitely want one.

Armata for me has been good, even though its not in the ideal spot.  It was in the pot way too long when I bought it, but I think after a year and a half it's settling in well.  Originally it only had 3 fronds and when a new one would appear the oldest would die.  This past summer it went to 4, and now it's almost up to 5.  I'm removing my front lawn which is all sand and south facing so I'm definitely looking to get some more Braheas.  Not as slow growing as I was led to believe, faster than a Sabal for sure.

[MarkbVet]

19 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

Brahea clara has similar hardiness or maybe a tad less compared to armata. The Claras handle the rain great unprotected unlike my armata. My armata keeps losing its one or two fronds in late spring.  I did get the Claras from Phil - jungle music, Tejas tropical, and Texas cold hardy.  

Nannorrhops ritchiana will not be very happy here if I can't provide permanent rain cover.

Nice plant! That's clara yes? beautiful color, and love to hear of the moisture tolerance!  As long as it's zone 8 hardy, i'm ok with slightly less cold tolerance than B. armata.    Thanks for the info= that's 3 good suppliers!

[Trustandi]

@Chester B i think your armata seems thriving on your video. It must be the more sun and heat than my area. 

Here is my armata. It is getting fatter though. I really need to build a structure for rain cover. 

@MarkbVet yes it is. The fronds are ok. No spotting from moisture. 

I also have the Clara blue/green form in my shady area on the second pic 

[MarkbVet]

58 minutes ago, Chester B said:

@Trustandi that Brahea looks great, now I definitely want one.

Armata for me has been good, even though its not in the ideal spot.  It was in the pot way too long when I bought it, but I think after a year and a half it's settling in well.  Originally it only had 3 fronds and when a new one would appear the oldest would die.  This past summer it went to 4, and now it's almost up to 5.  I'm removing my front lawn which is all sand and south facing so I'm definitely looking to get some more Braheas.  Not as slow growing as I was led to believe, faster than a Sabal for sure.

do you protect your armata from rain?   Reports usually say they're not terribly wet tolerant, then I just read something saying they tolerate 'a fair amount of water'... your experience?

[Chester B]

@Trustandi that is exactly what mine looked like the first year, it might just need more time.

@MarkbVet I do not protect the armata from moisture.  No spotting on the healthy fronds for me over its first winter and none this winter so far.  It is planted on a good slope though.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Chester B

[MarkbVet]

Just now, Chester B said:

@Trustandi that is exactly what mine looked like the first year, it might just need more time.

@MarkbVet I do not protect the armata from moisture.  No spotting on the healthy fronds for me over its first winter and none this winter so far.  It is planted on a good slope though.

 

Yay!!!!   Love to hear it!  

[Trustandi]

I didn't use to until this year. I did minimal protection with just a plastic umbrella. I will make a big rain cover next fall for the experiment.  Maybe it will flush more fronds when it is dry. 

I think they tolerate a fair amount of water just like what @Chester B said.

[MarkbVet]

@Trustandi my armata is just about that big, maybe slightly more trunk, but it's in a 5 gallon (I think) pot. 

[MarkbVet]

Anyone tried the Brahea 'super silver' palm?  May be hardy here; starts out pure green, then at a certain size starts putting out intense blue to silver white leaves.. no spines on petioles.  Curious as to hardiness experience...

Edited January 6, 2022 by MarkbVet

[JasonD]

8 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Nice plant! That's clara yes? beautiful color, and love to hear of the moisture tolerance!  As long as it's zone 8 hardy, i'm ok with slightly less cold tolerance than B. armata.    Thanks for the info= that's 3 good suppliers!

Brahea clara is a distinct population from Sonora, across the Gulf of California from the range of B. armata. It gets more summer rain than B. armata. Here in San Francisco it grows leaps and bounds faster than B. armata, and suffers less spotting on the lower leaves. It even blooms happily here. 
There's a clara specimen I know well that's thriving within 100 meters of the ocean at Fort Ross, on the Sonoma Coast about 80 miles north of San Francisco. The weather there is consistently cool and foggy in summer, with about 35–40 inches of rain from October to May. So, on the cool-tolerance front, it's a winner. I can't speak to its freezing tolerance, but I can't imagine it would be much less cold-tolerant than B. armata.
Sabal 'Riverside' and Sabal 'Blackburniana' both seem to grow more quickly in California than some of the other sabals, and S. 'Blackburniana' has proven to tolerate 14F at Kevin Weaver's place in Lake Elsinore.

[Meangreen94z]

I thought Sabal ‘Oregon’ was already debunked as Sabal Brazoriensis? Right down to their use of a stolen photo from Mercer Arboretum(Texas)? 

[Chester B]

3 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I thought Sabal ‘Oregon’ was already debunked as Sabal Brazoriensis? Right down to their use of a stolen photo from Mercer Arboretum(Texas)? 

They borrowed the photo for sure, but that garden had multiple Sabal species with the mother palm being a  Birmingham and the others included minor, Louisiana and mexicana.  They indicated others seedling from this palm were not true to the parent.  Now it's always possible this could be a straight Birmingham. The one I have is too small to compare to my Birmingham right now.  All I can say is the seedling is more green than than a lot of my other Sabal species, with no blue at all.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by Chester B

[Chester B]

8 hours ago, JasonD said:

Brahea clara is a distinct population from Sonora, across the Gulf of California from the range of B. armata. It gets more summer rain than B. armata. Here in San Francisco it grows leaps and bounds faster than B. armata, and suffers less spotting on the lower leaves. It even blooms happily here. 
There's a clara specimen I know well that's thriving within 100 meters of the ocean at Fort Ross, on the Sonoma Coast about 80 miles north of San Francisco. The weather there is consistently cool and foggy in summer, with about 35–40 inches of rain from October to May. So, on the cool-tolerance front, it's a winner. I can't speak to its freezing tolerance, but I can't imagine it would be much less cold-tolerant than B. armata.
Sabal 'Riverside' and Sabal 'Blackburniana' both seem to grow more quickly in California than some of the other sabals, and S. 'Blackburniana' has proven to tolerate 14F at Kevin Weaver's place in Lake Elsinore.

Thanks for the info @JasonD.  I do have two small Riverside and I can say they seem to be much quicker than the other Sabal species I have had at the same size.  You've definitely created a good case for me to add the other species to my collection.

[MarkbVet]

15 hours ago, JasonD said:

Brahea clara is a distinct population from Sonora, across the Gulf of California from the range of B. armata. It gets more summer rain than B. armata. Here in San Francisco it grows leaps and bounds faster than B. armata, and suffers less spotting on the lower leaves. It even blooms happily here. 
There's a clara specimen I know well that's thriving within 100 meters of the ocean at Fort Ross, on the Sonoma Coast about 80 miles north of San Francisco. The weather there is consistently cool and foggy in summer, with about 35–40 inches of rain from October to May. So, on the cool-tolerance front, it's a winner. I can't speak to its freezing tolerance, but I can't imagine it would be much less cold-tolerant than B. armata.
Sabal 'Riverside' and Sabal 'Blackburniana' both seem to grow more quickly in California than some of the other sabals, and S. 'Blackburniana' has proven to tolerate 14F at Kevin Weaver's place in Lake Elsinore.

Thanks!  Sounds like wet tolerance isn't going to be an issue w/ B. clara...  you don't get much weather below-freezing in that locale though, esp. on the coast. Cool/wet,  rarely hot, rarely really cold.  But still useful to know it can handle that sheer level of rainfall in cool winter months; we average in 40's F in winters here , with 40+ inches of rain yearly, most of it between Oct-May.  But we do have occasional cold spells (zone 8).   Thanks for your insights! 

[MarkbVet]

16 hours ago, JasonD said:

Brahea clara is a distinct population from Sonora, across the Gulf of California from the range of B. armata. It gets more summer rain than B. armata. Here in San Francisco it grows leaps and bounds faster than B. armata, and suffers less spotting on the lower leaves. It even blooms happily here. 
There's a clara specimen I know well that's thriving within 100 meters of the ocean at Fort Ross, on the Sonoma Coast about 80 miles north of San Francisco. The weather there is consistently cool and foggy in summer, with about 35–40 inches of rain from October to May. So, on the cool-tolerance front, it's a winner. I can't speak to its freezing tolerance, but I can't imagine it would be much less cold-tolerant than B. armata.
Sabal 'Riverside' and Sabal 'Blackburniana' both seem to grow more quickly in California than some of the other sabals, and S. 'Blackburniana' has proven to tolerate 14F at Kevin Weaver's place in Lake Elsinore.

I've heard that blackburniana is a trade synonym for a variety of S. bermudana?   (which I'm interested in growing).