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CiprianS

Sabals disease or rot?

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CiprianS

I don't know what is happening with my small Sabals but they don't seem to look ok at all.  This whole thing started since October I guess when the temperatures stated to go down but there hasn't been any freezing in the Houston area ever since. I will post below some photos with them, maybe someone has any ideas. I want to treat them with H2O2 because it seems that they have some rot on them, at least this is my idea. If you have any ideas please help.

I tried to pull the spears and I could not do it at any of them.

Indeed, these are all on the side where it is shadier but they still get some sun and in between the ones that seem not to be doing so good I have some that don't have any issues at all. It is just like it is happening random. 

Sabal Palmetto, at first one of the leaves was coming out yellow but it managed to get some green under it and it pushed it out. The newest spear came green from it.

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Sabal Riverside, it has a few spots on its leaves and the newest spear seems to have some problems.

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Sabal Palmetto, almost  of its new leaves that have grown since I planted it are dead. The new spear seems to be green.

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Sabal Palmetto, all of the new leaves that it sprouted since it was planted are dead. The new spear that is coming out seems to have a green base.

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Sabal Palmetto, all of the new leaves that it sprouted since it was planted are dead.  Also, the newest spear coming out seems to be dead.

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Sabal Riverside, again it seems to have some issues, the newest spear seems to have some rot on it, something that looks blueish greenish as you can see from the below photos.

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Sabal Palmetto, the one that I got from our colleague @Reyes Vargas that was doing so fine, sprouting leaf after leaf and now it seems not to be doing so good anymore with its newest spear dead.

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Edited by CiprianS

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sonoranfans

I'd get some hydrogen peroxide and fungicide on those right away.  I'd also check for spear pull first, it it pulls out, put the peroxide and then a few hours later the fungicide and put it down the hole if the spear pulls.  The peroxide will help the fungicide penetrate to the deeper infected parts.

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CiprianS

I tried to do spear pulls on all of them and nothing happened. As I was just watering them a little bit right now since all of these started since I stopped watering them and I said that maybe they did not have enough water, although the rot on them contradicts this theory I noticed the following thing. It seems that there are some brown granules close to the bottom of one of them and when the granules get water on them they become brownish. I can bet it has to do with their decline but what could that be? Below are the photos of these granules and how they become when they get water on them. Do they look like a fire ant mound or something? I don't have any ants in my backyard since I was treating it from time to time with Devil Max.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@CiprianS I can't say I know for sure but the palms look like they could you some more dry space. I would get the grass atleast 6" in diameter away from the palms. That little bit of watering you did the area looks mucky. Did any of these palms have heels and if so how did you plant them. There has to be a common denominator to all these troubles. Sabals should be fairly easy to grow especially in our area. 

T J 

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amh

What to you fertilize the grass with?

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CiprianS
12 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@CiprianS I can't say I know for sure but the palms look like they could you some more dry space. I would get the grass atleast 6" in diameter away from the palms. That little bit of watering you did the area looks mucky. Did any of these palms have heels and if so how did you plant them. There has to be a common denominator to all these troubles. Sabals should be fairly easy to grow especially in our area. 

T J 

 

It looks mucky because I was just watering a little bit, otherwise it is ok there. I think I will do some edging with some stones and after that I will replace the mulch with small stones.  All of these problems started since the weather got colder and the summer was gone. But as I have said, some of them are doing very good compared to others. I have just sprayed H2O2 on all of them right now, hopefully it will get better, I will spray some tomorrow, too and after that wait for the freeze that they are announcing to pass.

 

7 minutes ago, amh said:

What to you fertilize the grass with?

 

Some organic stuff, Milorganite to be more exact.

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amh
41 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Some organic stuff, Milorganite to be more exact.

Just checking, a lot of lawn fertilizers have added herbicide. Does water from a neighbors yard flood the area?

My first thoughts are always check for herbicides, soil fungus and water molds for gulf states.

Edited by amh
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Johnny Palmseed
46 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

 

It looks mucky because I was just watering a little bit, otherwise it is ok there. I think I will do some edging with some stones and after that I will replace the mulch with small stones.  All of these problems started since the weather got colder and the summer was gone. But as I have said, some of them are doing very good compared to others. I have just sprayed H2O2 on all of them right now, hopefully it will get better, I will spray some tomorrow, too and after that wait for the freeze that they are announcing to pass.

 

 

Some organic stuff, Milorganite to be more exact.

I believe Milorganite is made from treated sewage sludge. It is not as “organic” as the packaging proclaims and is believed to contain heavy metals. You might consider switching fertilizer.

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
24 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

It looks mucky because I was just watering a little bit, otherwise it is ok there.

If there is mulch there,  definitely get rid of it for the cooler months. Give those palms some space to dry. 

T J 

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CiprianS
49 minutes ago, amh said:

Just checking, a lot of lawn fertilizers have added herbicide. Does water from a neighbors yard flood the area?

My first thoughts are always check for herbicides, soil fungus and water molds for gulf states.

 

On the contrary, the water goes away, it does not stay in my yard even when it floods. 

Maybe it is the herbicide, I use some Atrazine that is good for St. Augustin lawn. Maybe it is the Cypermethrin from the Demon Max insecticide but that should not affect the plants.

 

36 minutes ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I believe Milorganite is made from treated sewage sludge. It is not as “organic” as the packaging proclaims and is believed to contain heavy metals. You might consider switching fertilizer.

 

I don't remember exactly if all of these issues started after I fertilized in the late Autumn with Milorganite or not but for sure there were no issues when I fertilized earlier in the year with it, on the contrary, they were doing very fine. I would guess that the herbicide that I used did this but I am not very sure, I need to check if the Atrazine can affect the palm trees or not.

 

25 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

If there is mulch there,  definitely get rid of it for the cooler months. Give those palms some space to dry. 

T J 

 

Hmmm.... But that mulch should also protect in case of low temperatures, right? 

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amh
3 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

On the contrary, the water goes away, it does not stay in my yard even when it floods. 

Maybe it is the herbicide, I use some Atrazine that is good for St. Augustin lawn. Maybe it is the Cypermethrin from the Demon Max insecticide but that should not affect the plants.

Atrazine could be the problem, if it is used near the palms.

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CiprianS

It was used close to them but not very close but last time when I used it, it rained after.  And I got one of the Palmettos affected after that but only one and I haven't used it for a while and all of a sudden I have some other Palmettos and also the Riverside with issues. So that is why I would not blame it on the Atrazine, I would blame it on the Milorganite. And also, as I said, there are some other Palmettos there that don't have any issues at all.

I would blame it maybe on a fungus that developed since the weather got colder but again, not all of them have this problem. I would just say that it will go away once spring comes otherwise I will need to plant some other ones and take those out but I am tired of replanting year after year.

Edited by CiprianS

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The7thLegend

@CiprianS I use Milorganite near palms, I don't think that's the problem.  Atrazine is more likely imo.  I've treated for dollar weed using Atrazine and have to spot treat around palms.  I have 1 large mule that has some minor issues because of Atrazine, however nothing nearly as bad as what you have going on so it may be something else.

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CiprianS

You said the magic word there for the mule, “large”. My Palmettos are very small ones and also the Riverside are not that big. But again, what confuses me is that I have some other small ones that don’t have anything on them and they are in the same row. And also, as I said, it has been a very long time since I treated with it and only one got affected then but it recovered as I mentioned. My backyard is full of weeds right now so the Atrazine effect is long gone. I would suspect that it is some type of fungus from the lawn. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
7 hours ago, CiprianS said:

Hmmm.... But that mulch should also protect in case of low temperatures, right? 

Unless it's Palmageddon again then you have nothing to worry about with these palms

T J 

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CiprianS

I also have 2 Bizzies and 2 CIDPs, not all of my palms are bulletproof. I also wanted some focal point palms, not only bulletproof ones. :)

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Johnny Palmseed

I don’t think the Milorganite did anything yet but it’s probably not something you would want to continue using. The atrazine could have had an effect but even then I think it would be minimal. My instinct says it’s the soil/watering. Seedlings have a limited chance of survival when moved. Whether it’s a high or low chance depends on us. If you moved the plant from a container with well draining soil into the ground, it doesn’t necessarily need more water than it had been getting. Also, did you plant it lower in the ground? That can cause problems too.

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CiprianS

Hmmm... I planted them as I got them as Seedlings from eBay except for the Riversides that I got from Phil and the two bigger Palmettos that I got from eBay and also from @Reyes Vargas. At first all of them pushed new leaves, they started declining when the weather cooled down. I doubt that it has to do with the soil, because as I have said I don't have standing water there. The only thing that I can think about is the light since there is not so much sun there anymore in the late autumn and winter.  But again what is confusing me is the fact that I also have some very healthy ones in between these ones that seem to be in decline. I have treated them yesterday with H2O2, I will treat them again after this cold front that is coming will pass.

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amh

I noticed a lack of broadleaf weeds around the palms, so I was thinking herbicide damage, especially because many herbicides persist longer in the environment when weather is cool.

4 hours ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

Also, did you plant it lower in the ground? That can cause problems too.

Highly likely this could be the problem with the mulch amplifying the problem.

Edited by amh
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CiprianS

I will stop watering them and keep on treating with the H2O2. I hope that this will fix my issue, but I still believe that the lack of sun that they were getting during the summer is causing this problem.  But again, if I don't water, the area is not wet at all, actually I haven't even watered the lawn since October I guess, I am only watering the palms from time to time.

Edited by CiprianS

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Phoenikakias

I strongly suspect infestation of water molds (the lawn around promotes their spread), especially Rhizoctonia  Among the various  Sabal spp palmetto is very vulnerable to Rhizoctonia. It is followed by minor, etonia and miamiensis. I have lost numerous Sabal specimens (including to the above mentioned also  bermudana, domingensis, mexicana). In all cases symptoms were shockingly uniform: first were affected the newest fully developed leaves followed by spear pull and meristem's death. Older leaves remained unaffected till their natural decline but palm was already dead. I have posted a whole topic here with many illustrations. If it is your case too fyi Rhizoctonia is vulnerable to chlorothalonil (Daconil), which is very sadly banned in Europe, and toclofos-methyl. In your shoes, I would apply a thorough disinfection schedule on your soil, as Rhizoctonia tends to persist and spread. And disinfect also ALL your digging tools!

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CiprianS
5 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

I strongly suspect infestation of water molds (the lawn around promotes their spread), especially Rhizoctonia  Among the various  Sabal spp palmetto is very vulnerable to Rhizoctonia. It is followed by minor, etonia and miamiensis. I have lost numerous Sabal specimens (including to the above mentioned also  bermudana, domingensis, mexicana). In all cases symptoms were shockingly uniform: first were affected the newest fully developed leaves followed by spear pull and meristem's death. Older leaves remained unaffected till their natural decline but palm was already dead. I have posted a whole topic here with many illustrations. If it is your case too fyi Rhizoctonia is vulnerable to chlorothalonil (Daconil), which is very sadly banned in Europe, and toclofos-methyl. In your shoes, I would apply a thorough disinfection schedule on your soil, as Rhizoctonia tends to persist and spread. And disinfect also ALL your digging tools!

Do you suspect they are dead already? I treated with H2O2 already, I will mix some Daconil with the H2O2 and treat again. 

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Johnny Palmseed
1 hour ago, CiprianS said:

Do you suspect they are dead already? I treated with H2O2 already, I will mix some Daconil with the H2O2 and treat again. 

Only time will tell. If you have some green then it’s not completely dead. If the spear pulls and everything else is brown, it’s probably dead.

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Phoenikakias
2 hours ago, CiprianS said:

Do you suspect they are dead already? I treated with H2O2 already, I will mix some Daconil with the H2O2 and treat again. 

Before spear pulling there is still hope, after it I fear not!

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amh

Thankfully chlorothalonil is still available in the US, for now.

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CiprianS

I treated all of the Palms in the area with Daconil. I will also treat all of my lawn with it. I hope I will see something changing before I will take them out and put some other ones to replace them.

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CiprianS

As I said, I treated all of my lawn with Daconil today. The good news is that it seems that some of the affected palms have passed the bad moment and the new spears from them show some green at the base although they looked to be dead they are pushing out some green at the base. I honestly doubt that this is happening because of the treatment that I applied a few days ago with Daconil or the H2O2 that was even before it. I tend to believe that this is because it did not rain anymore lately and the weather got better. As I said before, this decline started when the weather got cooler and affected one of the Palmettos but that one passed that moment.

Now the question is if I should treat again with Daconil the whole yard next month let’s say or just consider it done. 

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Phoenikakias
4 hours ago, CiprianS said:

As I said, I treated all of my lawn with Daconil today. The good news is that it seems that some of the affected palms have passed the bad moment and the new spears from them show some green at the base although they looked to be dead they are pushing out some green at the base. I honestly doubt that this is happening because of the treatment that I applied a few days ago with Daconil or the H2O2 that was even before it. I tend to believe that this is because it did not rain anymore lately and the weather got better. As I said before, this decline started when the weather got cooler and affected one of the Palmettos but that one passed that moment.

Now the question is if I should treat again with Daconil the whole yard next month let’s say or just consider it done. 

I would apply just one more time after a month, at least this is my practice with other fungicides but I am not familiar with Daconil.

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Phoenikakias
6 hours ago, CiprianS said:

As I said, I treated all of my lawn with Daconil today. The good news is that it seems that some of the affected palms have passed the bad moment and the new spears from them show some green at the base although they looked to be dead they are pushing out some green at the base. I honestly doubt that this is happening because of the treatment that I applied a few days ago with Daconil or the H2O2 that was even before it. I tend to believe that this is because it did not rain anymore lately and the weather got better. As I said before, this decline started when the weather got cooler and affected one of the Palmettos but that one passed that moment.

Now the question is if I should treat again with Daconil the whole yard next month let’s say or just consider it done. 

Fyi

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sonoranfans
On 1/2/2022 at 5:45 AM, CiprianS said:

Do you suspect they are dead already? I treated with H2O2 already, I will mix some Daconil with the H2O2 and treat again. 

Do not mix the H2O2 and the fungicide as the peroxide reacts and breaks down molecules including fungicide.  Apply peroxide and after a few hours it reacts 100% with dead plant tissue and fungus.  At that time you can apply the fungicide.   Mixing them will reduce the effects of each by destroying through reaction(reduction) of the peroxide and oxidation of the fungicide.   You have 3% peroxide, it doesn't take much organic matter to consume it in a reaction.   This is why you don't use the peroxide alone.  Yes H2O2 does kill fungus, but it is consumed and you might not kill it all in the deeper rotted tissue.  The fungicide is persistent, the two work a lot better by allowing the fungicide to penetrate deeper into dead plant tissue that contains the fungus.   Reapply after 3-4 weeks.

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CiprianS

I did not mix them in the end. At first I applied the H2O2 and after a few days I applied the Daconil. How do you suggest to apply them? Because I will reapply in a few weeks. Which one should I reapply first and after how many hours/days should I reapply the other?

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sonoranfans
8 hours ago, CiprianS said:

I did not mix them in the end. At first I applied the H2O2 and after a few days I applied the Daconil. How do you suggest to apply them? Because I will reapply in a few weeks. Which one should I reapply first and after how many hours/days should I reapply the other?

I misunderstood when I read "mix", you did fine.  3-4 hours and all the peroxide will be consumed.

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CiprianS

Ok, I got it. I will reapply again as I said in a few weeks. First the H2O2 and then after a few days the Daconil. 

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D Palm

Don’t use St. Augustine weed and feed fertilizer near the young palms, or any other plants you want to live. Nice looking lawn. High nitrogen is not good for palms either. 

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CiprianS

I stopped using the high nitrogen fertilizers for lawn two years ago. I was using Milorganite after that, but I will look for something organic. My lawn does not look that good anymore, I thought I lost it in February with the freeze, it was exactly when it was waking up from the dormancy period. I need to take care of it this year better but first I need to jump start my palms. :) 

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