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NWpalms@206

Any Mature jubaea or hybrids in PNW?

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matthedlund
1 hour ago, Paradise Found said:

I hope it makes it!  I just don't think they will be hardy for me.  So I will let y'all have the pleasure of growing them and see what happens. I wish you the best. 

I sincerely believe that Butia odorata x Parajubaea (any species) will have just as good of a shot in the PNW as a mule palm, Butia odorata x Syagrus rom.  That being said, I'm unwrapping one of each in the ground in the morning, so I guess we'll find out.

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Paradise Found
19 minutes ago, matthedlund said:

I sincerely believe that Butia odorata x Parajubaea (any species) will have just as good of a shot in the PNW as a mule palm, Butia odorata x Syagrus rom.  That being said, I'm unwrapping one of each in the ground in the morning, so I guess we'll find out.

I can't wait to see the results to.  If you could give us some facts, like how you protected them, what the lowest temperature.  That would help!

Edited by Paradise Found

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MarkbVet
7 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

If I’m not mistaken, and Matt H the owner may correct me, but I believe that one he has is from Richard Lindberg, and it is not the extra butia cross, before queen. But I may be wrong he may have said that it’s the Same Moultrie cross (JxB)xB)xQ. I’m sure he’d be happy to clarify. Either way would be a good one. I have Patrick’s (BxJ)xQ and I believe the wanderlust/Lindberg/moutlrie 3way cross all share the same Merrill Wilcox Jubutia F3 mother. 

Hey, got some interesting info on the 'super mules' from the horse's mouth (well, one of them anyway).  Here's what Matt at Wanderlust had to say when I asked him about diff's between his 'supermules' and the ones at Moutrie:  

"Our "Super Mule Palms" are literally the exact same parentage as those sold as "Hardy Mule Palms" sold by Frank Lewis at Moultrie Palms. Frank and I work with the same palm breeder and the mother palm is not really a (BxJ) x B, but it's actually a third generation hybrid of a BxJ that was self pollinated. The mother tree originated from Merill Wilcox. The plant growth speed seems to be on par with all of my other cocoid palms, although I hear they can be very quick growing in warm summer climates."  

Well, there you have it-- very interesting stuff!  And since the 2 nurseries have the same source plants, we may know a bit more about cold hardiness... Moultrie says 'hardiness unknown but we expect hardy into the lower digits'.   Wanderlust says 'appears to be reliably hardy to 15F"...which is a bit more of a specific claim; this should reliably apply to supermules from either source, hopefully.  Fun stuff!

Edited by MarkbVet
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MarkbVet
20 hours ago, Hutch said:

My mule palm tonight ...7 ft of trunk bought it as a 10 or 15 gallon from Raintree nursery. Silverton Or....nice place.

0101221701_HDR.jpg

That's a straight mule?  (BxS)?  Thought people had hardiness problems with that here,  doesn't look like you're protecting it.  How long in the ground w/o protection? Nice plant!!   There's a fatty behind it too... Butia or BxJ?  

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Hutch

That's a CDIP...behind it . yes it's a mule palm...no protection for the last 2 years going on 3.

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Scott W
On 1/1/2022 at 4:57 PM, NWpalms@206 said:

If I’m not mistaken, and Matt H the owner may correct me, but I believe that one he has is from Richard Lindberg, and it is not the extra butia cross, before queen. But I may be wrong he may have said that it’s the Same Moultrie cross (JxB)xB)xQ. I’m sure he’d be happy to clarify. Either way would be a good one. I have Patrick’s (BxJ)xQ and I believe the wanderlust/Lindberg/moutlrie 3way cross all share the same Merrill Wilcox Jubutia F3 mother. 

 

Yes, you are correct, Rich and Frank have the same Jubutia F3 from Merrill Wilcox that they use to produce the super mules.  

I've mentioned this numerous times on a few of the FB forums because I've seen some mention of super mules for sale that use Frank's picture and they always fail to mention that it's an F3 mother and simply label it as a standard Jubutia x Syagrus.  Same with Rich's Jubutia x schizzophylla cross, it was done on the Jubutia F3 but most fail in realizing that or don't know because either the reseller didn't advertise it as such or the buyer doesn't remember that part.  

Quite frustrating if you ask me, but I guess that's going to happen when you really start diving into hybrids across multiple generations.

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Chester B

I totally forgot there is a large BXJ in a public planting in downtown Portland in South Hawthorne Waterfront Park.  Been there since 2013.  I can't steal the photos so I'll post a links to the blogs of who planted it and a current picture.

Story behind the palm:

https://gardenriots.com/2014/09/19/butia-x-jubaea-a-pinnate-palm-for-portland-first-test-for-me/

Post with a current picture:

http://www.thedangergarden.com/2022/01/winter-thus-far.html#comment-form

 

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Scott W
1 hour ago, bruce Steele said:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/909926945737519/posts/1718188378244701/?comment_id=2199050650158469
 

Here is a Facebook link re. Merrill Wilcox with pictures of his trees. 

I was present for the picture Rich posted in that from about four years ago.  Wasn't so much into palms at the time, more interest in cycads.  I don't recall the one in the back yard, just the row of them in the front yard. 

I heard rumor Dr Wilcox' widow sold the property.  If so hopefully she or Everett filled them in on what they have....

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NWpalms@206
1 hour ago, Scott W said:

I was present for the picture Rich posted in that from about four years ago.  Wasn't so much into palms at the time, more interest in cycads.  I don't recall the one in the back yard, just the row of them in the front yard. 

I heard rumor Dr Wilcox' widow sold the property.  If so hopefully she or Everett filled them in on what they have....

definitely hope they appreciate the history, and do what they can to preserve the property and trees, or sell them to someone who knows the story behind his palms!

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Love them palms
On 1/1/2022 at 7:25 PM, Paradise Found said:

I hope it makes it!  I just don't think they will be hardy for me.  So I will let y'all have the pleasure of growing them and see what happens. I wish you the best. 

did a second check on the parajubaea x Butia/Jubaea today after it was uncovered and it looks alot better than a few Days ago. looks very promising. pic ( 1) is the bad look pic (2) today 

20220101_153604.jpg

FB_IMG_1641243386346.jpg

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Jesse PNW

We need to make friends with this guy!  He's got lots of Jubaeas.  Not sure if this is the same guy I keep seeing on Craigslist or not. 

 

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NWpalms@206
30 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

We need to make friends with this guy!  He's got lots of Jubaeas.  Not sure if this is the same guy I keep seeing on Craigslist or not. 

 

His name is Bryan I have been there a couple times!  I guess Those potted jubaea were stress damaged he had found them that way down in Cali and purchased them for recovery. They won’t be “retail ready” for 2 yrs he said. But I got my waggies, Takils, my biggest medi, and a handful of trachy seedlings from him. That wood box jubaea he showed the bottom of, it’s the one I’m going back for! And ya he’s on Craigslist, and definitely solid palm connection. I believe he’s called Backyard Tropics. 

Edited by NWpalms@206
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Chester B
36 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

We need to make friends with this guy!  He's got lots of Jubaeas.  Not sure if this is the same guy I keep seeing on Craigslist or not. 

 

That' s so odd that you put this up.  I saw one his videos for the first time yesterday, showed up in my YouTube feed for the first time.

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Trustandi

He is in Renton area. I bought some of my trachycarpus and chamaerops from him. He has big trachycarpus and many small princeps. 

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Trustandi
On 1/1/2022 at 1:01 PM, MarkbVet said:

any thoughts on the 'supermule' from wanderlust?  It's (BxJ)xQ,  2 gallon size, $100.  Not sure if this would increase the Jubaea genes/appearance, or affect hardiness?  Any experience with this particular hybrid?  I believe the plants from Moutrie are one gallon, but great price.  Likely will go with them.

In theory, I don't think the super mule will be very cold hardy since it is still 50% of the queen gene.  However, it will be much faster growing than butia. I have one of them.  

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Scott W
22 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

In theory, I don't think the super mule will be very cold hardy since it is still 50% of the queen gene.  However, it will be much faster growing than butia. I have one of them.  

I'd disagree, at best it's 25% Syagrus if you're talking about the super mules Frank and Rich produce.

The mother is Jubutia F3, which is believed to be a selfing of Dr Wilcox' s ((jubaea x butia) x butia) which was then pollinated by syagrus.

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Trustandi

Probably, but they pollinate it with queen in the final step ((jubaea xbutia)xbutia) x Q  . Did they use the pollen from (BxQ)? 

I know Patrick successfully crossed the real super mule (BxJ) x (BxQ).  

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Love them palms
2 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

His name is Bryan I have been there a couple times!  I guess Those potted jubaea were stress damaged he had found them that way down in Cali and purchased them for recovery. They won’t be “retail ready” for 2 yrs he said. But I got my waggies, Takils, my biggest medi, and a handful of trachy seedlings from him. That wood box jubaea he showed the bottom of, it’s the one I’m going back for! And ya he’s on Craigslist, and definitely solid palm connection. I believe he’s called Backyard Tropics. 

Dave Alvarez may know this connection. I know last couple of springs he went to the San Diego area and brought back a bunch of Jubaea and even both mine and Chris Coys Jubaea x Queen, bunch of waggies, Takil. and a few others.

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bruce Steele

Bryan has a video up on the recent snow event. I hope all those newly transplanted Jubaea hang in there. 
 

 

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Scott W
1 hour ago, Trustandi said:

Probably, but they pollinate it with queen in the final step ((jubaea xbutia)xbutia) x Q  . Did they use the pollen from (BxQ)? 

I know Patrick successfully crossed the real super mule (BxJ) x (BxQ).  

Most mules (Butia x Queen) produce little to no pollen, so no, I'm fairly certain they don't.  Also, to my knowledge, the only palm dubbed "super mule" are the ones Frank and Rich produce using Merrill Wilcox's Jubutia F3.

With that, Rich did cross his Merrill Wilcox Butiagrus with pollen from his Merrill Wilcox Jubutia F3 last year.  Seed had a wicked thick endocarp and I managed to germinate three out of twelve that I acquired from him.   One died, one is hanging on and one is growing superbly!

Seed kernals removed 11/15/2020; first germination took 5 months:

IMG_20211005_191920.thumb.jpg.5a8b5c49ef0efcb819f76dfd152149bb.jpg

First germinated palm on June 1, 2021, just a small single strap leaf:

PXL_20210603_215610659.thumb.jpg.faa81cfe9b88991a211cea9287515620.jpg

and this is it today at six months, 1/3/2021:

PXL_20220104_005925252.thumb.jpg.38945c51c64403db38b0248a453b64af.jpg

 

IMG_20211005_191915.jpg

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Jesse PNW

I believe his Jubaeas will be just fine.   I'd love to make a trip up there and visit him and support his business.  From his videos it looks like he's building a retail location from the ground up and doing a lot of it himself.  That's like my personal retirement goal so I'm kinda jealous!  I hope he does well. 

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Jesse PNW

@Scott W that is super cool!  Best of luck!

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NWpalms@206
25 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Most mules (Butia x Queen) produce little to no pollen, so no, I'm fairly certain they don't.  Also, to my knowledge, the only palm dubbed "super mule" are the ones Frank and Rich produce using Merrill Wilcox's Jubutia F3.

With that, Rich did cross his Merrill Wilcox Butiagrus with pollen from his Merrill Wilcox Jubutia F3 last year.  Seed had a wicked thick endocarp and I managed to germinate three out of twelve that I acquired from him.   One died, one is hanging on and one is growing superbly!

Seed kernals removed 11/15/2020; first germination took 5 months:

IMG_20211005_191920.thumb.jpg.5a8b5c49ef0efcb819f76dfd152149bb.jpg

First germinated palm on June 1, 2021, just a small single strap leaf:

PXL_20210603_215610659.thumb.jpg.faa81cfe9b88991a211cea9287515620.jpg

and this is it today at six months, 1/3/2021:

PXL_20220104_005925252.thumb.jpg.38945c51c64403db38b0248a453b64af.jpg

 

IMG_20211005_191915.jpg

Very interesting. Keep us updated on that one! 

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NWpalms@206
3 hours ago, Trustandi said:

He is in Renton area. I bought some of my trachycarpus and chamaerops from him. He has big trachycarpus and many small princeps. 

He’s got a lot of stuff… princeps, Nanus, Takil, nainital, butia, jubaea, fortunei, waggie, chamaerops, the list goes on! 

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MarkbVet
4 hours ago, Scott W said:

I'd disagree, at best it's 25% Syagrus if you're talking about the super mules Frank and Rich produce.

The mother is Jubutia F3, which is believed to be a selfing of Dr Wilcox' s ((jubaea x butia) x butia) which was then pollinated by syagrus.

Well...regardless of how many prior crosses you do, the FINAL cross is that hybrid plant BxJ etc (contributing 50% of genome) with Queen palm (contributing the other 50%)...so yes, 1/2 of genetic material will be queen, and 1/2 is the hodgepodge of all the other prior hybridized genes.  And as a point of interest, the supermule isn't actually (BxJ) XB xQ,  even though that's how it's commonly represented.  It's actually this:  (BXJ) x (BXJ) (original hybrid self pollinated to produce 2nd generation offspring),  then crossed with Butia, and then queen palm, if I'm interpreting the history correctly.  I'm going by the response I got when I just asked Matt at Wanderlust re: any diff's between his 'supermules' and Moultrie's supermules.  Matt's response is as follows:

"Our "Super Mule Palms" are literally the exact same parentage as those sold as "Hardy Mule Palms" sold by Frank Lewis at Moultrie Palms. Frank and I work with the same palm breeder and the mother palm is not really a (BxJ) x B, but it's actually a third generation hybrid of a BxJ that was self pollinated. The mother tree originated from Merill Wilcox. The plant growth speed seems to be on par with all of my other cocoid palms, although I hear they can be very quick growing in warm summer climates."    Matt also has more specific hardiness info:  whereas Moultrie says 'hardiness unknown, but expect hardy into lower digits",  Wanderlust says "appears reliably hardy to 15F".    If accurate, this is a much more specific hardiness claim, and should apply to supermules from both nurseries, given that they are selling identical plants.  There of course should be some variation in both physical characteristics and hardiness due to differing gene combinations in the offspring.    Interesting stuff!!    

Edited by MarkbVet
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Trustandi

That is awesome @Scott W! It will be one of the holy grail palms, just like J x Q.  It is true that Frank & Rich came up with the name of super mule. I am sorry,  I think might have confused their super mule with moultrie palm super cold hardy mule. In that case, yes they will have 25% of the Q.

Here is the picture of the other mule (BxJ) X (BxQ). Yours might look like this or even prettier in the future. https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/64476-first-time-hearing-of-this-cross/

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MarkbVet
4 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

That is awesome @Scott W! It will be one of the holy grail palms, just like J x Q.  It is true that Frank & Rich came up with the name of super mule. I am sorry,  I think might have confused their super mule with moultrie palm super cold hardy mule. In that case, yes they will have 25% of the Q.

Here is the picture of the other mule (BxJ) X (BxQ). Yours might look like this or even prettier in the future. https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/64476-first-time-hearing-of-this-cross/

Yes, THIS 'supermule' hybrid (BXJ) X (BXQ) would be only 25% queen palm genes.  Very nice-- likely good hardiness, though it will dilute the queen palm's effect on growth rate and tropical appearance maybe?   Hard to get that BxQ to produce seed (hence the mule name) but glad someone persevered! 

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Swolte

Interesting discussion. I have a large 'supermule' from Frank that just went unprotected through 18F (didn't really want to test it but weather predictions were oddly off by more than 7F). Looks unscathed so far but time will really tell.
:) 

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Jesse PNW

@Swolte do you have pics of this said supermule?

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Swolte

I took a picture of the supermule before the freeze last weekend one afternoon (first one). The second one was the morning (hence the lighting is different) after the surprise 18F attack. I did try to put some (incandescent) Christmas lights on but they actually broke so there was zero protection. Favorable microclimate being close to the house though.

Mule before.JPG

Mule after.JPG

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MarkbVet
5 hours ago, Trustandi said:

In theory, I don't think the super mule will be very cold hardy since it is still 50% of the queen gene.  However, it will be much faster growing than butia. I have one of them.  

Thanks..  turns out the supermules from wanderlust and moultrie are identical, and reliably hardy to 15F (according to Matt at wanderlust),  despite being 50% queen palm.   Let's hope so!  :-)

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MarkbVet
49 minutes ago, Swolte said:

I took a picture of the supermule before the freeze last weekend one afternoon (first one). The second one was the morning (hence the lighting is different) after the surprise 18F attack. I did try to put some (incandescent) Christmas lights on but they actually broke so there was zero protection. Favorable microclimate being close to the house though.

Mule before.JPG

Mule after.JPG

Lovely plant, and encouraging for us hoping to get these to survive in colder/wet weather!!  Here's hoping for your plant to thrive, would love to see pics in a year or two and watch the (hopefully rapid) growth!!

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Jesse PNW

@Swolte that's one awesome palm, and good placement!

Edited by Jesse PNW
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Jesse PNW

Unfortunately, it's hard to say that anything is hardy to ___ and fill in a number.  It might handle 15f for a night if the next day gets back up over freezing.  It might handle a dry 15f.  Maybe it can handle 2 nights of 15f and 48 hours of freeze, provided it thaws out after that.  Our weather here is generally pretty good and predictable but sometimes we get crazy events.  Like the one we just came out of. 

I've got two Jubutiagrus (actually one is a Bujutiagrus I believe, based on what Patrix said).  I'd like to put them in the ground but if I do I expect to protect them.  I don't think they're hardy to 8A.  

Banana Joe clemente up there on Salt Spring Island says that Butia isn't fully hardy where he lives - they're marginal and will get killed every 10 or 20 years, unless they're in a perfect microclimate.  He says Jubaea are fully hardy and are proven.  So if only 1/4 of the palm is fully hardy for him, then I don't see how a "supermule" would be.  In fact he once said in a live stream that mules are not hardy up there which makes sense.  And he's half a zone warmer than me or you.  

BUT, just because it's marginal here, doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't grow it!  I've got a few marginals in my garden and I only plan on having more.  It just takes a little bit more work and a little bit of luck.  And it's a learning process and that's half the fun!  In the words of Patric,

"I think time and the weather is the only true teacher

There are more factors then just the temperature
size , condition , soil  ,Amount of energy stored  ,Wet vs dry
weather before and after the event  etc"
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MarkbVet
37 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Unfortunately, it's hard to say that anything is hardy to ___ and fill in a number.  It might handle 15f for a night if the next day gets back up over freezing.  It might handle a dry 15f.  Maybe it can handle 2 nights of 15f and 48 hours of freeze, provided it thaws out after that.  Our weather here is generally pretty good and predictable but sometimes we get crazy events.  Like the one we just came out of. 

I've got two Jubutiagrus (actually one is a Bujutiagrus I believe, based on what Patrix said).  I'd like to put them in the ground but if I do I expect to protect them.  I don't think they're hardy to 8A.  

Banana Joe clemente up there on Salt Spring Island says that Butia isn't fully hardy where he lives - they're marginal and will get killed every 10 or 20 years, unless they're in a perfect microclimate.  He says Jubaea are fully hardy and are proven.  So if only 1/4 of the palm is fully hardy for him, then I don't see how a "supermule" would be.  In fact he once said in a live stream that mules are not hardy up there which makes sense.  And he's half a zone warmer than me or you.  

BUT, just because it's marginal here, doesn't mean you can't and shouldn't grow it!  I've got a few marginals in my garden and I only plan on having more.  It just takes a little bit more work and a little bit of luck.  And it's a learning process and that's half the fun!  In the words of Patric,

"I think time and the weather is the only true teacher

There are more factors then just the temperature
size , condition , soil  ,Amount of energy stored  ,Wet vs dry
weather before and after the event  etc"

Mules do seem to be less hardy in the PNW  from what I've repeatedly heard, so not surprised to hear that sentiment repeated.  Adding Jubaea genes in may make quite a difference in a 'supermule' but who knows?  That hybrid vigor may also mean that the hardiness is more than the % sum of the parts.   And each plant may vary a bit.  Plus microclimate planting areas, etc.   As you say, lots of variables.   In the PNW (in my area at least)  15 F is unusual, and almost never prolonged, so I'm happy with a claim of 15F tolerance even for brief periods!  Sometimes all one can do is hope lol.  Really excited to see what the Butia yatay X Jubaea can do, more Jubaea influence there and may be fairly hardy== as well as decently fast growing.   Got mine coming soon from Patrick hopefully.   

I'm curious what Banana Joe's climate situation is precisely.... he may be 1/2 zone warmer looking at it in broad terms, but he's considerably further north than me,  and may have a yard more exposed to heavy weather once in a while, where severe cold and/or winds really affect the plants badly. In other words, is it possible that despite slightly milder lows most average winters (hence the higher climate zone), does he also experience more extreme winter conditions (during the worst of the worst) than we do, say every 10-20 years?  Wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.  Of course, that could just be my irrepressible optimism coloring my outlook, all rosy *wink*

Edited by MarkbVet
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Jesse PNW

@MarkbVet He has more of a sheltered climate because he's on a small island surrounded by the Puget Sound. His property is full of mature douglas firs and big arbutus menzesei which only helps.  But he knows SSI very well and he talks about the climates there often.  Local to him, his extreme lows and highs are probably more mild than ours.  Your zone is probably a lot like mine, 15f is a seldom thing but it does happen.  I had a girlfriend in Beaverton for awhile, she broke my heart a couple times but that's a story for another time!  My in-laws are on the Columbia river just outside Vancouver and I run down there once a month or so.  They stay a little warmer than me, and they're not that far from you.  So you might be warmer than me.  What was your ultimate low for this Arctic Blast event?  Mine was 16f.

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MarkbVet

Beaverton is warmer than the Columbia gorge area, especially if you head east.  In east Portland/Vancouver, you get blasts of cold air coming from the east side thru the gorge, and the closer you are to the gorge, the colder and windier it can be.  I'm relatively sheltered in the southwest area here, despite being not that far from Portland. Our lowest lows this past week were 25F once, and 27 twice.        

Sounds like Joe has some shelter from winds, and being near the water keeps winter temperatures milder than inland for the most part, similar to oregon coast where it's zone 9 or even 10.  But-- even with wind shelter from some fir trees (I have a little of that too, neighbor's fir trees), I still wonder about how low he gets during that 'every 10 or 20 year' event?   Just curious, as details and small variances in climate matter.  He may have even more humidity there than I do, and fog etc--which maybe can affect exotic plant hardiness during cold spells.  Jubaea would like that stuff, other palms may not.  Any idea how low his lowest temps got this past week? 

Climates are weird.  For instance, Seattle is coastal, therefore milder in some regards than my inland locale--they can grow Tasmanian tree ferns there, I can't.  But Wanderlust says they have a foot of snow on the ground now, and I didnt get more than a 1/2 inch during our 'cold snap'.   Further north is, when all is said and done, further north, which still counts for something. 

In Jacksonville in So. Oregon, where I plan to retire, it's also zone 8, but much drier in winter, hot in summer, palms should love it.  And the lowest temp there in the past week was 30F.  Same climate zone as far as 'average lowest winter temp' but less severe weather on average.  I cant wait lol. 

By the way, you're really fun to discuss stuff with, besides similar interests (obviously, we're on palmtalk), you're thoughtful and have interesting angles on things, which makes me have to stop and think.  Keep it up!  :-)

Edited by MarkbVet
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Jesse PNW

@MarkbVet Small differences in climate do matter, for sure.   That's why we pay so much attention to microclimates and to try exploit them as much as possible.  Even where I live, my property will often be in the upper 30's and frost free.  But my neighbors just slightly downhill, with no forest canopy, will be covered in frost. 

I too have retirement goals.  The wife and I want to move to Florida, hopefully to a zone 10.  She loves florida for Disney and sunshine.  I love it for the climate.  I'd love to run a nursery and also cater to cold-hardy hybrids, and ship stuff up to the PNW.  Those are all dreams and I have a lot of figuring to do, to make it all happen. 

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