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Any Mature jubaea or hybrids in PNW?


NWpalms@206

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4 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

@Chester B   Shipping was $45...heavy pot and well packaged though.  No damage.   Gave me a little discount on the plant (unasked). 

Any idea the largest size they ship?  I sent an email asking an haven't received a reply.  I can only imagine the costs to ship a larger size to Florida :crying:

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15 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Thanks.  You definitely got the best Trithrinax for our climate.  I have a decent sized T acanthacoma that I will plant this spring.  I got such a good price on it, It's worth the risk.

It may do ok,  good luck!

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12 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Any idea the largest size they ship?  I sent an email asking an haven't received a reply.  I can only imagine the costs to ship a larger size to Florida :crying:

I don't know... they do offer larger sizes on many plants, if they're in stock (it varies), but obviously the plant (and shipping) cost goes up rapidly above 5 gallon.  Don't know if they are willing to ship really big plants.  They're pretty good about getting back to you with answers, though. 

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5 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

I don't know... they do offer larger sizes on many plants, if they're in stock (it varies), but obviously the plant (and shipping) cost goes up rapidly above 5 gallon.  Don't know if they are willing to ship really big plants.  They're pretty good about getting back to you with answers, though. 

Thanks.  They have some 15 gallon Butia species that I'd love to have in my collection.....

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58 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Any idea the largest size they ship?  I sent an email asking an haven't received a reply.  I can only imagine the costs to ship a larger size to Florida :crying:

Phil still ships 15G palms. I bought a 15g JxB from him before. 

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1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Thanks.  You definitely got the best Trithrinax for our climate.  I have a decent sized T acanthacoma that I will plant this spring.  I got such a good price on it, It's worth the risk.

Cistus has T. brasiliensis, may try it at some point.

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1 hour ago, Trustandi said:

Phil still ships 15G palms. I bought a 15g JxB from him before. 

Got a pic? Was eyeballing that on his list 

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4 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

And the plot thickens lol. Soon theyll have the whole alphabet crossed in there! I imagine you could by 5 of each and probably all be a little different. As a grower maybe thats frustrating not having a consistent product, but I like the variation keeps them from getting too boring and just being copies of each other. 

Ok, so got more info from Matt at Wanderlust,  he says that to confirm all the Supermule details, we'd have to ask the original source, Merrill, who of course is deceased.  But to best of Matt's knowledge, it's 3rd generation BxJ then hybridized with queen palm;  or BxJ ( F3) x Q.  In longhand, it would be (BxJ) x (BxJ) x (BxJ) self pollinated for total of 3 generations,  then crossed with queen palm.  This is the best that can be ascertained of the genetic hybrid background of the supermules for both Moultrie and Wanderlust, as far as Matt knows.  Definitely a bit different than the common (Bxj) x B x Q that is often used to describe these palms.    Just repeating here for those interested!  

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8 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Ok, so got more info from Matt at Wanderlust,  he says that to confirm all the Supermule details, we'd have to ask the original source, Merrill, who of course is deceased.  But to best of Matt's knowledge, it's 3rd generation BxJ then hybridized with queen palm;  or BxJ ( F3) x Q.  In longhand, it would be (BxJ) x (BxJ) x (BxJ) self pollinated for total of 3 generations,  then crossed with queen palm.  This is the best that can be ascertained of the genetic hybrid background of the supermules for both Moultrie and Wanderlust, as far as Matt knows.  Definitely a bit different than the common (Bxj) x B x Q that is often used to describe these palms.    Just repeating here for those interested!  

Of course, despite the same parent source palms for the two nurseries,  Moultrie may be doing an additional cross with Butia before the final queen cross, and Wanderlust simply isn't aware of it...?   Really not certain.  :unsure:

Edited by MarkbVet
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2 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Of course, despite the same parent source palms for the two nurseries,  Moultrie may be doing an additional cross with Butia before the final queen cross, and Wanderlust simply isn't aware of it...?   Really not certain.  :unsure:

No, Frank Lewis (Moultrie Palms) nor Rich Lindberg are not doing an additional cross before the final cross with Queen.

In my discussion with Rich Lindberg this morning, this is what was ascertained:

Original tree was in Fairchild,  thought to be pure Jubaea,  determined in fact to be a hybrid,  most likely Jubaea x Butia.  Merrill obtained seed from this tree and ultimately planted them in his front yard along the driveway.  Once these matured, Merrill then started performing crosses with these trees.  These offspring are the Jubutia F3 that Rich and Frank are working with.  The unknown is whether these F3 trees were produced from hand pollinated backcross, natural pollination backcross, or from self pollination.  Most likely though they are Butia back crossed and hence the Jubutia F3 designation.

@edbrown_III travelled and worked with Merrill quite a bit as well, and I'll be sure to talk to him some more on this as well.

I found in this thread here Tim Hopper was producing Syagrus hybrids using the same trees Merrill had in his front yard, as he was gifted one then.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61309-is-there-a-j-x-b-x-q/

This thread here also talks a little more about Merrill's trees and includes a couple pics...

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26741-jubutyagrus-hybrids-update/&page=3

So circling back around, I think it would be easiest and best if whoever does have the "super mule" from Frank or Rich continue to label them as Jubutia F3 x Syagrus.  Makes sense to me....

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2 hours ago, Scott W said:

No, Frank Lewis (Moultrie Palms) nor Rich Lindberg are not doing an additional cross before the final cross with Queen.

In my discussion with Rich Lindberg this morning, this is what was ascertained:

Original tree was in Fairchild,  thought to be pure Jubaea,  determined in fact to be a hybrid,  most likely Jubaea x Butia.  Merrill obtained seed from this tree and ultimately planted them in his front yard along the driveway.  Once these matured, Merrill then started performing crosses with these trees.  These offspring are the Jubutia F3 that Rich and Frank are working with.  The unknown is whether these F3 trees were produced from hand pollinated backcross, natural pollination backcross, or from self pollination.  Most likely though they are Butia back crossed and hence the Jubutia F3 designation.

@edbrown_III travelled and worked with Merrill quite a bit as well, and I'll be sure to talk to him some more on this as well.

I found in this thread here Tim Hopper was producing Syagrus hybrids using the same trees Merrill had in his front yard, as he was gifted one then.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61309-is-there-a-j-x-b-x-q/

This thread here also talks a little more about Merrill's trees and includes a couple pics...

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26741-jubutyagrus-hybrids-update/&page=3

So circling back around, I think it would be easiest and best if whoever does have the "super mule" from Frank or Rich continue to label them as Jubutia F3 x Syagrus.  Makes sense to me....

Hmm interesting, I would agree with you on the simply J/B F3 x Queen if this is true. Strange though Moultrie is very specific in their literature (copied and posted previous page) that they crossed that J/B with pure butia again before the Queen. If thats not true not sure why they would claim to... anyways though I think weve beat the dead horse, its a 3 way cross of J/B/Q either way. Gonna be getting a couple more Moultrie supers i think when they open shipping, I guess the only thing left would be to ask Frank himself about HIS palms. Good to clear it all up, seems like there was some lingering confusion about what exactly the "Super" mules are . All good info

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59 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Hmm interesting, I would agree with you on the simply J/B F3 x Queen if this is true. Strange though Moultrie is very specific in their literature (copied and posted previous page) that they crossed that J/B with pure butia again before the Queen. If thats not true not sure why they would claim to... anyways though I think weve beat the dead horse, its a 3 way cross of J/B/Q either way. Gonna be getting a couple more Moultrie supers i think when they open shipping, I guess the only thing left would be to ask Frank himself about HIS palms. Good to clear it all up, seems like there was some lingering confusion about what exactly the "Super" mules are . All good info

Yeah, but I don't think he did that additional cross, he was just expounding on the parentage of the F3 Jubutia obtained from Merrill, as this F3 Jubutia IS different from obviously a standard mule (Butia x Syagrus) and different again as well from a Jubutiagrus (Jubaea x butia) x Syagrus.

I can assure you Frank and Rich are working with the same generation F3 Jubutia and are producing the same super mules.

Anyway, as I stated, the reality is that the parentage is definitive, so again in my opinion it'd be best to simply call then Jubutia F3 x Syagrus...

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43 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Yeah, but I don't think he did that additional cross, he was just expounding on the parentage of the F3 Jubutia obtained from Merrill, as this F3 Jubutia IS different from obviously a standard mule (Butia x Syagrus) and different again as well from a Jubutiagrus (Jubaea x butia) x Syagrus.

I can assure you Frank and Rich are working with the same generation F3 Jubutia and are producing the same super mules.

Anyway, as I stated, the reality is that the parentage is definitive, so again in my opinion it'd be best to simply call then Jubutia F3 x Syagrus...

Thats what im labeling it. Their website data is just a little confusing then, the way its described.  No worries, im definitely not trying to correct anyone or be a know it all, Im a just a detail oriented person that was raised by a Biologist. So i enjoy this type of stuff, also a "ADHD" kid so I get an idea in my head and sometimes i gotta tell myself let it go! haha but i can admit it, and appreciate everyones input!

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5 hours ago, Scott W said:

No, Frank Lewis (Moultrie Palms) nor Rich Lindberg are not doing an additional cross before the final cross with Queen.

In my discussion with Rich Lindberg this morning, this is what was ascertained:

Original tree was in Fairchild,  thought to be pure Jubaea,  determined in fact to be a hybrid,  most likely Jubaea x Butia.  Merrill obtained seed from this tree and ultimately planted them in his front yard along the driveway.  Once these matured, Merrill then started performing crosses with these trees.  These offspring are the Jubutia F3 that Rich and Frank are working with.  The unknown is whether these F3 trees were produced from hand pollinated backcross, natural pollination backcross, or from self pollination.  Most likely though they are Butia back crossed and hence the Jubutia F3 designation.

@edbrown_III travelled and worked with Merrill quite a bit as well, and I'll be sure to talk to him some more on this as well.

I found in this thread here Tim Hopper was producing Syagrus hybrids using the same trees Merrill had in his front yard, as he was gifted one then.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61309-is-there-a-j-x-b-x-q/

This thread here also talks a little more about Merrill's trees and includes a couple pics...

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26741-jubutyagrus-hybrids-update/&page=3

So circling back around, I think it would be easiest and best if whoever does have the "super mule" from Frank or Rich continue to label them as Jubutia F3 x Syagrus.  Makes sense to me....  

That seems to be the most accurate description of what they probably are, though it sounds like the genetic makeup of the original tree wasn't certain nor the work of deliberate hybridization.   Where that final (xB) designation came from (right before the queen cross) --who knows?   But yes,  3 generations of Jubutia hybrids crossed with Queen palm in 4th gen, seems the best summary.   Matt at Wanderlust also gave me pics of the 'mother tree' for the final hybrid cross-- looks like a Jubutia-- and the 'father plant'--  looks like a queen palm.   He asked I not share those pics as he doesn't own them.   Thanks for the info!  

Edited by MarkbVet
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20 hours ago, Scott W said:

Any idea the largest size they ship?  I sent an email asking an haven't received a reply.  I can only imagine the costs to ship a larger size to Florida :crying:

Their site mentions shipping 15 gallon plants and even large pallets of plants.  They deliver mature palms that require cranes to install, but that would be a local event only I'd imagine.

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21 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

I've got a 2 gallon supermule on order from Wanderlust, same thing as Moultrie, but wont ship until March I think.  Got a Patrick   B. yatay X Jubaea on the way, + a Trithrinax campestris from Jungle Music, and a silver Sernoa repens from plantvine.    So... are your patrick palms (JxB) x J  ?  :-)

I think you got the last one!

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here's a cross I got from Patric Shafer a couple years ago-  Jubaea x Butia yatay- decided to uncover it today after checking out the weather outlook. don't  think I should of covered it but oh well. don't know if Patric make these anymore ,Mukilteo Washington Z8B 

20220108_123027.jpg

20220108_123021.jpg

20220108_123004.jpg

Edited by Love them palms
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@Love them palmsThat thing looks great!  He still offers them, at least this past fall he did.  You've got all kinds of stuff, do you have more pics or maybe a vid walkthrough of it all? 

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8 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

@Love them palmsThat thing looks great!  He still offers them, at least this past fall he did.  You've got all kinds of stuff, do you have more pics or maybe a vid walkthrough of it all? 

It's one of my Favorites,I believe the Jubaea x butia is your winner, winner, chicken dinner when it comes to PNW hardiness.it survived last winter uncovered and I'm sure it could have this cold spell as well.I will do my spring video walk through in end March and April on Facebook, might do a YouTube to upload here.

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14 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

@Love them palmsdon't you also grow Butia X Jubaea? 

other than my Butia x Jubaea x Queen. I have 1 Butia x Jubaea as well. had this one planted 3 years now

20220108_142200.jpg

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I noticed on what seems like all the Yatay crosses, they have and keep that very green petiole and boots even after cut off. Noticed on someone’s yatay x queen pic also, on another post. My 5gal JxB F1 was “Likely” yatay, said  “ I was using yatay at that time” but he labeled it simply Jub x Butia and couldn’t remember. Mine has the darker base look, possibly not yatay then? still gorgeous though, just a detail I noticed. Maybe nothing to it. Bring on some more yatay X  pics! Here’s a young one just splitting its first leaf. Can’t wait for it to grow there’s some really nice Yatay x Jub pics floating around here. 

6E554DD4-DE38-4323-A18F-2A3909BFDC35.jpeg

image.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/8/2022 at 12:47 PM, Love them palms said:

here's a cross I got from Patric Shafer a couple years ago-  Jubaea x Butia yatay- decided to uncover it today after checking out the weather outlook. don't  think I should of covered it but oh well. don't know if Patric make these anymore ,Mukilteo Washington Z8B 

20220108_123027.jpg

20220108_123021.jpg

20220108_123004.jpg

Just ordered one today, he said he was out for a bit but some more have appeared!

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5 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Just ordered one today, he said he was out for a bit but some more have appeared!

just sent Patrick a message myself to see what he has and asked about Jubaea crosses 

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2 hours ago, Love them palms said:

just sent Patrick a message myself to see what he has and asked about Jubaea crosses 

Fill us in on the current list if you can. 

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7 hours ago, Chester B said:

Fill us in on the current list if you can. 

post it as soon as I get it 

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  • 5 months later...
On 12/28/2021 at 9:51 AM, NWpalms@206 said:

Awesome, thats what im talking about, those jubaeas are amazing! gives me hope. And great video by Dave ive talked to him gonna go check out what hes got this spring also, was gonna get a J/B x syag Schizo from him but turned out there was one right down the street in west seattle, so I havent made it out there yet.

IIMG_2172.thumb.JPG.f974765f303e746a509e5cb10b27689c.JPG

These two Jubeae Chilensis were planted as seeds in 1981 and 1982 in pots and grown indoors for several years before being put outside.  They are on the Oregon South Coast.  Jubaea grow slowly for about 20 years before dropping fronds or leaves.  It is during this junenile stage that the size of the tree is determined, the better the growing conditions the bigger the trunk will emerge.   At 20 years of juvenile growth some of the oldest and lowest leaves or fronds will come off and it takes several years of these oldest leaves coming away before the trunk is visible.  Once the trunk is visible the Jubaea begins growing much faster and goes verticle, and when the trunk is about 5 feet high the palm begins to flower or Inflorescence at about 25 years old.  Our Jubaea produce about 8 flowers year around, and will continue doing so until adulthood when the first nuts are formed. At adulthood when the first nuts develope the trunk begins to tapper down showing the classic Vase like shape of a mature Jubaea so admired.  The Jubaea on the right is still growing a bulging trunk with largest diameter about 8 feet above ground and is close to adulthood.

As for hardyness, Jubaea as juviniles before a trunk can withstand several days in the mid to upper 20's, but should be given protection in the low 20's when very young.  When the trunk begins to show Jubaea are much more cold tolerant due to the sugar sap in the trunk that acts like Anti-freeze.  But the crown or top of the palm can still be damaged by freezing, how low a temperature and for how long, I do not know.  Read the literature from Northern Europe.  IMG_2171.thumb.JPG.5f0444b812354f9e8c2cedb22bfc2a90.JPG

Trunk on this larger Jubaea is about 10 feet high and about 4.5 feet diameter.

 

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Those are awesome, I heard about these ones but neve saw pictures.  Where on the coast are they @Banana Belt?

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If I'm not mistaken those are the ones in Brookings Oregon, I thought Hutch also got a pic of them while he was down there. 

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12 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

If I'm not mistaken those are the ones in Brookings Oregon, I thought Hutch also got a pic of them while he was down there. 

Correct.  Size of the trunk and tree is deceptive from a distance, but when standing up next to it the girth of trunk is really impresive.  I can barely reach my arms around the trunk half way when standing next to it, but the thickest part of the trunk is about 8 feet off the ground.

The two trees are in their late 30's and almost 40.  Apparently Jubaea will flower for many years before setting nuts and not before they are at lest 40, that's what I am told.  Additionally when Jubaea start producing nuts, the crown begins tappering down leaving behind a narrowing trunk.  Thats why pictures of older Jubaea in Chile show an abrupt narrowing of trunk in the upper reaches.

I wait patiently for the first nuts to grow and fall to ground, any summer now.

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I missed those when I was there.  Would love to get back down there one of these days.

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The Jubaea at the San Antonio Riverwalk planted at the worlds fair in 1968, 54 years ago, still waiting for it to flower. I can give up on the idea of one seeding in my lifetime on my own. I'll stick with Canaries, I have had them produce seeds many years.

Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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