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Pacific Northwest Arctic Outbreak?

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Trustandi

Well, my low was 17F/18F. It is still in zone 8B range. 

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Jesse PNW

Finally, 32.2F!  4 days below freezing.  Supposed to get up to 36 but then back below freezing tonight.  

@teddytn For most places up here, temps aren't as low as they could be.  However, Banana Joe Clemente posted a video the other day where his lowest temp for this event was -8C or 17.6f, which I know they almost never see where he lives.   That temp probe may have just been in a cold spot, his other one registered -6.6c or 20.1f.  Which is also several degrees colder than a normal winter for them.

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Chester B
1 minute ago, Jesse PNW said:

Finally, 32.2F!  4 days below freezing.  Supposed to get up to 36 but then back below freezing tonight.  

@teddytn For most places up here, temps aren't as low as they could be.  However, Banana Joe Clemente posted a video the other day where his lowest temp for this event was -8C or 17.6f, which I know they almost never see where he lives.   That temp probe may have just been in a cold spot, his other one registered -6.6c or 20.1f.  Which is also several degrees colder than a normal winter for them.

I know he had the -8c this year and in 2008. With growing zones being based on 30 year intervals this clearly puts him in zone 8b not zone 9a. 

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Paradise Found
6 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Finally, 32.2F!  4 days below freezing.  Supposed to get up to 36 but then back below freezing tonight.  

@teddytn For most places up here, temps aren't as low as they could be.  However, Banana Joe Clemente posted a video the other day where his lowest temp for this event was -8C or 17.6f, which I know they almost never see where he lives.   That temp probe may have just been in a cold spot, his other one registered -6.6c or 20.1f.  Which is also several degrees colder than a normal winter for them.

Jesse Its 34F at 10 am here, the warmer air is coming your way so hang on man. 

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Jesse PNW

@Chester B I know "USDA zone" is a made-up metric, and it doesn't mean as much as I first thought it did.  It's just a number and really doesn't tell you if a plant is actually hardy to your area.  Seems like it can be generally useful but paints quite an incomplete picture. 

Anyway I just tried researching how USDA zones are determined and I didn't see anything about a 30 year span or anything.  Are USDA zones based on a time window like that?  Or all-time lows?

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Chester B

@Jesse PNW It is based on the average annual minimum temperature over the last 30 years. It doesn’t seem to take into account the absolute minimum over that time, Which to me seems very important. I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong or can elaborate further on this. All it takes is one or two bad years or events to kill a plant. And yes you are correct it is a man-made classification. It gives a general idea but doesn’t paint the whole picture. However if you look at the plants that Joe is growing, they aren’t any different than what we can. He says Butia are not full proof and his Cordylines get knocked back every 10 years or so due to cold weather. So going by that I would say he’s a zone 8B, even though the maps show 9A but the plants tell a better story.  Plus every year he seems to get much colder and prolonged freezing than what I do down here. But I guess there’s two different ways to look at it.

Looping in @Silas_Sancona for further comments/clarification. 

Edited by Chester B
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Jtee

Has it been above freezing at Banana Joes place? I’ve seen his videos and he’s been in snow for days. I’m interested to see how to plants do. Joe says all his plants will be fine and there’s nothing to worry about but I’m maybe more worried I guess. I get worried when mine drop to 28 for a few hours overnight. 
I’m familiar with growing in New Mexico, Texas and Alabama and the thing is with these places when it gets below freezing it dosent stay for too long and the day and sun warms up. The daytime temp likely won’t go below freezing. 
it may go down to 25 let’s say but then the day will warm up to 55. I’m interested in seeing how the palms handle these low temps for such a long period, especially with snow on them and rain. 

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Jesse PNW
25 minutes ago, Chester B said:

.... He says Butia are not full proof and his Cordylines get knocked back every 10 years or so due to cold weather. So going by that I would say he’s a zone 8B,...

My green cordylines look fine but my red cordylines look like they're toast.  Sucks, i really like them and I have a good sized one, and it didn't even dawn on me to protect them.  Oh well, they're cheap.  

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teddytn

@Chester B @Jesse PNW It seems like winter weather at least farther south has been staggered farther and farther to late winter/ spring before it gets really cold. For example it’s been in the 70’s here lately, for December that’s unseasonably warm for more than a day or 2. Used to get colder a lot earlier in the year here. I wonder if you’re guys early cold weather is a harbinger of a bad winter for all in the states…..

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Silas_Sancona
10 minutes ago, Chester B said:

@Jesse PNW It is based on the average annual minimum temperature over the last 30 years. It doesn’t seem to take into account the absolute minimum over that time, Which to me seems very important. I’m sure someone can correct me if I’m wrong or can elaborate further on this. All it takes is one or two bad years or events to kill a plant. And yes you are correct it is a man-made classification. It gives a general idea but doesn’t paint the whole picture. However if you look at the plants that Joe is growing, they aren’t any different than what we can. He says Butia are not full proof and his Cordylines get knocked back every 10 years or so due to cold weather. So going by that I would say he’s a zone 8B, even though the maps show 9A but the plants tell a better story.  Plus every year he seems to get much colder and prolonged freezing than what I do down here. But I guess there’s two different ways to look at it.

Looping in @Silas_Sancona for further comments/clarification. 

Pretty much Nailed it on the head.. 

USDA ratings are " good " ..but far from perfect..  Absolute minimums are important too,  ( I thought the USDA zone ratings took those into account as well.. ? ) but i honestly don't use them as a way to limit what i could grow..

Other factors like micro climate placement, the fact that any snow that may fall during a cold outbreak will help insulate plants against extreme cold exposure / help keep wet sensitive plants drier  -to some degree- ( How " dry they might stay under snow can depend on the weather beforehand < ..was it dry, or wet > )  are things to take into account as well when it comes to evaluating a plant's overall hardiness..

Hopefully this makes sense .. A Good example here would be some cacti / other Xeric- type plants..  If constantly exposed to cold / soaked, they can suffer fatal rot.  While the same plants might be buried in snow, they are still kept milder / drier and are less likely to suffer cold / wet related damage..  Same if kept dry thru the winter ..where it doesn't snow, but can get cold enough to see a frost / freeze out here.

How they are cared for ..as you go into winter, is another thing that can influence cold < or heat / drought > tolerance.. Would never recommend anyone applying anything higher in Nitrogen after say October, anywhere, even down here.. You want as little tender growth occurring while cool / cold as possible.  Good shot of Potassium ( K ) at that time is good though and may harden up the plants a bit..

In the end, can't really do anything about abrupt shifts in the weather.  Even native plants that haven't had a chance to adapt to a cooling weather trend, -before a  big freeze / extended cold- can suffer damage / be killed when you whiplash between hot and cold spells at the wrong time..  

Coming back to the USDA zones, i hope Oregon State is planning on an update soon..

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Silas_Sancona
13 minutes ago, teddytn said:

@Chester B @Jesse PNW It seems like winter weather at least farther south has been staggered farther and farther to late winter/ spring before it gets really cold. For example it’s been in the 70’s here lately, for December that’s unseasonably warm for more than a day or 2. Used to get colder a lot earlier in the year here. I wonder if you’re guys early cold weather is a harbinger of a bad winter for all in the states…..

It's headed your way.. < to some degree.. > Soon..

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Chester B
51 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

My green cordylines look fine but my red cordylines look like they're toast.  Sucks, i really like them and I have a good sized one, and it didn't even dawn on me to protect them.  Oh well, they're cheap.  

To grow mature Cordylines you need to be in zone 9a. By Mature I mean big thick chunky ones not ones that are flowering as they can do this when they are medium sized. Yes unfortunately Cordylines are less hardy than many of our palms and the red varieties are even less so.  But like you said at least they’re cheap. I protected my most valuable ones.

47 minutes ago, teddytn said:

@Chester B @Jesse PNW It seems like winter weather at least farther south has been staggered farther and farther to late winter/ spring before it gets really cold. For example it’s been in the 70’s here lately, for December that’s unseasonably warm for more than a day or 2. Used to get colder a lot earlier in the year here. I wonder if you’re guys early cold weather is a harbinger of a bad winter for all in the states…..

I know my parents back in Ontario, Canada have been experiencing the same thing. This seems to be a trend the last few years east of the mountains out here. For us I guess it’s not totally out of character as December and January are our coldest months, so it landed smack dab in the middle. Hopefully the rest of your winter is average. 

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Paradise Found
50 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

It's headed your way.. < to some degree.. > Soon..

Dallas, TX is going to be cold this weekend, Sat 22F, Sun 24F Highs on Sunday is 42F.

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Las Palmas Norte

 A couple of pics with a foot of snow accumulation. Temps are bumping up nicely (40°F's) in the sun. Under clear skies tonight it should prove to be another cold night.

Trachycarpus wagnerianus, T.fortunei (crushed under the snow load) and Butia capitata (burlap tucked in the crown)

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20211230_121102.jpg.7fbd61094d6f3606a3cba44295e8fd16.jpg

 

 

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Phyllostachys
5 hours ago, teddytn said:

Has anyones low temperature been outside of a normal winter low for their zone? Looks like most people commenting lows in the 20’s. 

My low in Vancouver BC was -10.8°C / 12.5F, which is within the parameters of our zone 8. That being said, the majority of winters don't get this cold, and not often for this long. Temps are a little higher now, but not by much; last night's low was -7°C / 19 F and that's the forecasted low for the next two nights also. 

Same as @southpacific73 who's nearby, I got a big dump of snow last night. For extra insulation, I've been shovelling the snow onto the plants that are planted in a narrow border against the South wall of the house - that's where most of my sensitive plants are planted. Anyone care to wager on wether my Sago will survive with just snow as insulation? :blink2:

 

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Edited by Phyllostachys
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Phyllostachys

Yesterday I checked up on the large tree ferns that are in downtown Vancouver. They are in a covered building entrance, but nothing was done to offer more protection during the cold snap. Thankfully they look fine! The lights on them are only LED and don't provide much heat.

There used to be a 4th tree fern closer to the exterior entrance, but it died many years ago (likely because they didn't protect it during a cold snap!)

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Edited by Phyllostachys
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oasis371

Gorgeous!

, but think I have managed to KILL more tree ferns than any other plant on earth.

Guessing that they are Dicksonia antarctica.

Edited by oasis371
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ShadyDan

I hit -8.3 as my absolute low, keeping me within 8b. Vancouver and lower mainland folks got the cold a lot worse than most of us on the Island. That little stretch of ocean sure comes in handy during these events. 
 

I think most of my plants pulled through, my Acacia looks a little rough though. I’ll have a better idea once things thaw out this weekend. 

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teddytn
1 hour ago, Phyllostachys said:

Yesterday I checked up on the large tree ferns that are in downtown Vancouver. They are in a covered building entrance, but nothing was done to offer more protection during the cold snap. Thankfully they look fine! The lights on them are only LED and don't provide much heat.

There used to be a 4th tree fern closer to the exterior entrance, but it died many years ago (likely because they didn't protect it during a cold snap!)

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That overhead protection makes such a difference and planted against a wall. Has to get some heat runoff from the building too. I’ve daydreamed about building some kind of covered awning like that with greenhouse panels for the roof. 

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teddytn
4 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

It's headed your way.. < to some degree.. > Soon..

I’ve been feeling for a while the south east is going to get hit bad this winter. Super delayed start to winter, some wild weather events locally ( thunderstorms late in the year, a lot of wind storms combined with wet weather and on their own, tornadoes, at least half the days in dec. above 70f, all very odd) and then all the temperature maps @Collectorpalms posted here. I guess I forgot how cold the Canadian interior can get, -20’s, -30’s….and colder wtf! Of course all that cold gets pushed south. Normally see 5f here reliably every winter, below freezing for a week, freezing rain/ ice storm/ snow at least 2 separate occasions every year…..this hurts me to say, but prediction for the south east this winter based on what I’ve seen here a few locations will see the coldest temps in the past 10 years, smokey mountains/ Appalachian mountain region will see more snowfall than normal as well. I’m no weather expert by any means, just a hunch. 

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necturus

USDA zones are the average annual minimum temperature over a thirty year span - the minimum temperature experienced in a year.  Average temperature or average low temperatures don't factor in to it.  The oft repeated joke is, your refrigerator is zone 10. 

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Silas_Sancona
8 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I’ve been feeling for a while the south east is going to get hit bad this winter. Super delayed start to winter, some wild weather events locally ( thunderstorms late in the year, a lot of wind storms combined with wet weather and on their own, tornadoes, at least half the days in dec. above 70f, all very odd) and then all the temperature maps @Collectorpalms posted here. I guess I forgot how cold the Canadian interior can get, -20’s, -30’s….and colder wtf! Of course all that cold gets pushed south. Normally see 5f here reliably every winter, below freezing for a week, freezing rain/ ice storm/ snow at least 2 separate occasions every year…..this hurts me to say, but prediction for the south east this winter based on what I’ve seen here a few locations will see the coldest temps in the past 10 years, smokey mountains/ Appalachian mountain region will see more snowfall than normal as well. I’m no weather expert by any means, just a hunch. 

All depends on how X pattern sets up as we go into next month.. 

One reason to check in often w/ the guys who track US, and world wide weather patterns via Twitter ( Judah Cohen, Eric Webb, Daniel Swain / Bob Henson / others here in AZ ( for the west )  ...the " PV Forecast " Guy in Europe,  etc, etc.. ) and carefuly analyze Wx forecast models... and not  latch onto what one model run is seeing per day ( because the next 3 runs can change, sometimes quite a bit ).  

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teddytn
14 minutes ago, necturus said:

USDA zones are the average annual minimum temperature over a thirty year span - the minimum temperature experienced in a year.  Average temperature or average low temperatures don't factor in to it.  The oft repeated joke is, your refrigerator is zone 10. 

For sure. Looking for hints that this may be a bad winter. Maybe I phrased my question wrong lol. Wondering if anyone saw temps. out of the ordinary cold for their location so far. 

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oasis371

What Winter?! Super mild in the Northeast as well, 50 F on New Year's Eve at midnight ball drop in NYC, then on to 60 F on New Year's Day. Yes, bitter cold in Canada, but right now, the worst of it will be north of the border and actually, will indirectly be responsible for incoming record warmth in most of western Europe in the coming week . Big temperature contrast between Canada and USA right now, unusually so even for Winter.  My average, normal January, daily low is around 26 F. with a normal, average daily max of 40-42, so far, this year,  averaging around 45-50 F. and bottoming out at 28 F.  Almost no snow this year so far, we tend NOT to get freezing rain and ice storms (I hate that sh!/ worst of all!), but there can be deep snows (which is actually provide plants with great insulation from cold, and the real cold is always associated with dry and sunny weather, not the snowy), but there have not really been any nor'easters riding up the Southeast coast into the Northeast this year..., so far.  I know the pattern may change, but so far, I see no evidence of it.  As soon as the cold fronts pass, it quickly warms up. My Camellias are blooming their heads off and normally, they wait till March, not this year.  As far as your "hunches", save those for your lottery numbers, more predictable than the dam! weather nowadays anyway! LOL!

Happy New Year, btw!

P.S., "For sure. Looking for hints that this may be a bad winter. Maybe I phrased my question wrong lol. Wondering if anyone saw temps. out of the ordinary cold for their location so far. " As of now, you need to look out to the West Coast and Hawaii.

 
Edited by oasis371
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Silas_Sancona
20 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

What Winter?!.  I know the pattern may change, but so far, I see no evidence of it.

Happy New Year, btw!

 

 
  •  

Just looked over the point and click forecasts across New Jersey..  Check back on Monday.. 

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oasis371

"USDA zones are the average annual minimum temperature over a thirty year span - the minimum temperature experienced in a year.  Average temperature or average low temperatures don't factor in to it...."

This is correct, and yet every time I read the description of the USDA zones, I seem to get confused all over again, maybe it's the math.  Here is my current understanding of USDA zones.  

If I am Zone 7b, that means the absolute minimum temperature my plants will have to endure is 5.0 F (as this number was calculated using annual minimums over a course of 30 years).  Yes, there were recorded temps colder in climatological records, but if they are outside the 30 year window, they did not factor in. Thus, in the course of my life, my zone has gone from Zone 7a to 7b. What do I get once I graduate to 8a, anyway?!

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necturus
8 minutes ago, oasis371 said:

"USDA zones are the average annual minimum temperature over a thirty year span - the minimum temperature experienced in a year.  Average temperature or average low temperatures don't factor in to it...."

This is correct, and yet every time I read the description of the USDA zones, I seem to get confused all over again, maybe it's the math.  Here is my current understanding of USDA zones.  

If I am Zone 7b, that means the absolute minimum temperature my plants will have to endure is 5.0 F (as this number was calculated using annual minimums over a course of 30 years).  Yes, there were recorded temps colder in climatological records, but if they are outside the 30 year window, they did not factor in. Thus, in the course of my life, my zone has gone from Zone 7a to 7b. What do I get once I graduate to 8a, anyway?!

The zones are an average. 7B doesn't mean the absolute minimum your plants will endure is 5 F - it means that, on average, the lowest they'll experience in a winter is 5-9 F.

Over 30 years, outliers get buffered out. For example, despite hitting 12-14 last year (8A), Houston still averages 9B over the last 30 years.  This is why Houston was full of big queens 10-20 years old, but now they're almost all dead. For most of the continental US, it's safe to say over the 30 year period you will rarely see winters that departures from your zone by 1-2. So for 7B NJ, 6A or even 5B.

Unfortunately, this is a big difference between Florida, the Gulf Coast and California. The outliers on the Gulf Coast tend to be more extreme than Florida, and California has the least variation. 

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oasis371

OK, thank you,  necturus, I think I get it.  I will look at it all again in the light of day, right now I'm getting a headache and I don't think it's the tequila either. NO wonder people are confused by the zones. Peace out.

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Las Palmas Norte
7 hours ago, ShadyDan said:

I hit -8.3 as my absolute low, keeping me within 8b. Vancouver and lower mainland folks got the cold a lot worse than most of us on the Island. That little stretch of ocean sure comes in handy during these events. 
 

I think most of my plants pulled through, my Acacia looks a little rough though. I’ll have a better idea once things thaw out this weekend. 

Coldest low (one night) for this outbreak in Courtenay, -11°C / 11°F. Port Alberni and Campbell River where in the -15°C / 5°F range. The safest places north of Victoria are Tofino and Ucluelet.

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Phyllostachys
7 hours ago, oasis371 said:

Gessing that they are Dicksonia antarctica.

Yes, that's what I believe they are.

And you're in good company, I've also killed a few Dicksonia antarctica :greenthumb::winkie:

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southpacific73
18 hours ago, Phyllostachys said:

My low in Vancouver BC was -10.8°C / 12.5F, which is within the parameters of our zone 8. That being said, the majority of winters don't get this cold, and not often for this long. Temps are a little higher now, but not by much; last night's low was -7°C / 19 F and that's the forecasted low for the next two nights also. 

Same as @southpacific73 who's nearby, I got a big dump of snow last night. For extra insulation, I've been shovelling the snow onto the plants that are planted in a narrow border against the South wall of the house - that's where most of my sensitive plants are planted. Anyone care to wager on wether my Sago will survive with just snow as insulation? :blink2:

 

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20211230_140102.jpg

20211221_115514.jpg

That sago is so far looking good!

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southpacific73

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year and hopefully better weather without any Arctic outbreaks/ Vortex!

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Paradise Found

Low last night was 32F,  tonight will be colder but not to bad and then comes the unwrapping which will feel good. Almost all the snow fell off yesterday on windmills. 

Edited by Paradise Found
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Chester B
41 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

Low last night was 32F,  tonight will be colder but not to bad and then comes the unwrapping which will feel good. Almost all the snow fell off yesterday on windmills. 

I went down to 33 but tonight the darn east wind will be blowing. 23f is the predicted low and last freeze for the foreseeable future. Near 50 degrees next week and heavy rains. 

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Paradise Found
39 minutes ago, Chester B said:

I went down to 33 but tonight the darn east wind will be blowing. 23f is the predicted low and last freeze for the foreseeable future. Near 50 degrees next week and heavy rains. 

I am doing a dry test run for two Aloes so can't wait to see how they do. Last winter they were not protected at all, Low was 25F, this winter low 22F, so Wet verse Dry.  Last year (wet) no damage at all except on some lower leaves. 

So far the newly planted palms are looking good, @ super cold hardy mule, livistona chinensis are under the popup greenhouse with some candle for heat.... don't knock it, it work really good.  :P 

Edited by Paradise Found
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Phyllostachys
2 hours ago, southpacific73 said:

That sago is so far looking good!

Sorry for the confusion; hat was a photo of before the snow for reference :lol:

 

The snow is most definitely still here, unfortunately!

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Phyllostachys
19 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

I am doing a dry test run for two Aloes so can't wait to see how they do. Last winter they were not protected at all, Low was 25F, this winter low 22F, so Wet verse Dry.  Last year (wet) no damage at all except on some lower leaves. 

What Aloe species are you testing? Would love to know the results!

I've got many Aloe aristata and Aloiampelos striatula (syn. Aloe striatula), with various levels of protections to test the limits.

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Paradise Found
1 hour ago, Chester B said:

I went down to 33 but tonight the darn east wind will be blowing. 23f is the predicted low and last freeze for the foreseeable future. Near 50 degrees next week and heavy rains. 

Yes Aristata is very hardy here I never even protected them this year or most winters.  Two I am testing are Brevifolia and Broomii.  In some website they are rated as z8. ( They sell them here as hardy aloes, LOL.  I think the rating is Brevifolia is 20F and Broomii at 22F.  I think the best way to grow them is to give them protection with a mini popup greenhouse to keep them dry.  Dryness is the key in our winters.  I have mine close to the house for extra warmth. 

Edited by Paradise Found
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SailorBold
1 hour ago, Paradise Found said:

Low last night was 32F,  tonight will be colder but not to bad and then comes the unwrapping which will feel good. Almost all the snow fell off yesterday on windmills. 

How is your king fern doing?

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Paradise Found
3 minutes ago, SailorBold said:

How is your king fern doing?

Hey SailorBold,  Should be just fine, I cut off all the leaves and wrapped the top with two thick blankest, Its been through worst winters than this with no real damage as long as it wrapped on top. I'll be taking the blankets off tomorrow.  The trunk is so thick it really helps with hardiness, otherwise I hate to think what it would look like, lol.

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