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Manos33

In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

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petiole10
2 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

What do you mean by this name, a variety? But I am not aware that it exists. Do you have a picture?

Are you referring to the Queen palms? 

Syragus romanzoffiana.

I just found it easier to type regular Queen palms thinking it would be understood what they were.. I could have said Cocos palm I suppose.

The other one I mentioned is the Red Latan palm.  Taken in the dark, not a great picture - but this is the one I have in a pot.

SAM_2553.JPG.b1a96e22063ee8a31bb3f4eac86fe462.JPG

@Phoenikakias   I think some of the editing in my post by copying the list that was done and then taking some out didn't help and has not made the comparisons clear and logical within the post.    But,  to be quite honest, all of this this is a sidetrack and distraction to the main points I was trying to make in the post

Edited by petiole10
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Phoenikakias
5 hours ago, petiole10 said:

Can you elaborate?  This really doesn't help much at all.

  

Regular Queens, this is the term Pietro was referring to.  Queen palm is the popular name for Syagrus romanzoffiana aka Arecastrum romanzoffianum, aka Cocos plumosa, aka Cocos australis.  Admittedly that you have named Queen palm next to Latania as another less cold tolerant palm does not make any sense at all, unless you were meaning with regular a different sp than Syagrus romanzoffiana.

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Manos33
On 1/3/2022 at 10:16 PM, Manos33 said:

An interesting observation for Nea Smyrni, while examining the USDA Hardiness Zones as adjusted for Greece according to Gouvas (2012), it appears that Nea Smyrni has an average of +2.3C according to the Gouvas(2012) formula which again confirms that South Athens falls clearly in the 10b zone.

Below is the USDA formula adjusted for Greece:

PH = 1,16*{ [Tmn(Jan) + Tmn(Feb) + Tmn(Mar) + Tmn(Dec)] /4 } - 2,6

http://hardiness.inforest.gr/intro.html

Apologies but it seems i miscalculated the Nea Smyrni NOA station PH which actually stands at +3.1C according to the USDA formula adjusted for Greece according to Gouvas (2012). A clear 10b zone which actually is slowly edging towards an 11a zone as more meteorological data are becoming available as the time passes...

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
20 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

WTF?

Screenshot_20220104-122345_Facebook.jpg

Inforest does not take into account the NOA stations data. They use data for the closest HNMS data. Basically the map provided is an extrapolation of data from the closest HNMS stations. So not exactly accurate. The Nea Smyrni NOA data are clearly supporting a 10b zone.

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pietropuccio

It is the plants that tell us the zone, not the formulas or our desires, try to grow the palms that are considered by most growers 10b, in open field and without protection, and then we talk about it again.

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Janni
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

It is the plants that tell us the zone, not the formulas or our desires, try to grow the palms that are considered by most growers 10b, in open field and without protection, and then we talk about it again.

:greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb:

This is absolutely wise and true. Spoken like a real (ancient) greek :D

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Manos33
5 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

It is the plants that tell us the zone, not the formulas or our desires, try to grow the palms that are considered by most growers 10b, in open field and without protection, and then we talk about it again.

Well yes that is the ultimate truth but due to the lack of motivated growers in Greece we can't really know for sure, unless of course people start en mass to grow these plants. That's why a scientific approach for the USDA zones as adjusted specifically for Greece is a valuable tool

Edited by Manos33

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pietropuccio

- Thanks Janni!

- Manos 33

Theories are important, but if they are not validated by experience, they are useless. Periodically we talk about the climatic zones and the possibility of coconut cultivation. For an Italian forum I made a small demonstration (you can easily translate it with google):

https://www.fruttama.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4370

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mlovecan

Hi Manos,

I am a solid 10B in South Rhodes. 

Since 2003, I have tried to grow cocos in my garden. Using only the Dutch glasshouse type (Phillipino talls from Costa Rica), I have slowly increased the date of complete death from early December up to Mid-March.  

Jonathan in Malta has just declared his pair of Dutch Cocos dead in the first week of January. I was at his house last week and he talked me through his successes and failures.  He normally germinates from supermarket cocos in an elaborite heat and humiditry system under quite low lighting. Those cocos push into the top of his grow containers.

The Indian varieties he picks up in Lidl have given him the most success (he tells me the Indians did some real genetic research, producing some very weather-tolerant strains) . One tree from 2020 is over 2 meters high. There are about 20 cocos on his roof.  80% look no worse in winter than my healthy king palms.

The climate in Malta is identical to mine in South Rhodes.  

I have 2 of the Indian ones fresh out of Jonathon's incubator. So far thet seem to be happy. He recommends May 1st as the date to move them outside.

 

Edited by mlovecan
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sonoranfans

Watering of the water lovers (like roystonea, archontophoenix, kentiopsis(chamberyronia) is required to keep them happy, growers who are water skimpers will likely have problems regardless of having a good zone.  IF palms are unhappy, they may emit volatiles that attract the weevil, weevil dinner smells.  In florida we get 60" rain, primarily in the hot season when water is needed most.  Over watered palms are attacked by weevils here.  Sick palms attract weevils, no doubt about that.   Yes trying lots of stuff leads to failures, expect them.  I have failed to keep a number of dypsis and braheas happy here.  My BxJ hybrid is currently hating life due to rains plys a neighbors brokn irrigation system that floods it.  I almost expect to see the weevil attack when breeding season begins.  I can grow many palms too, but drought or climate stressed palms are going to look poorly or end up attacked by weevil or other insect herbivore or pathogens.  

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bubba

I believe Petiole was simply making an observation regarding the similarity between the climate of the Athens Riviera and the Portugal Riviera, located in and around Faro. The Red Latan pictured is far more tropical than the Queen Palm.

I suspect that the Atlantic ocean near the Portugal Riviera may well be warmer than the waters of the Mediterranean. This is a complete guess on my part and it would be interesting to know the water temperatures surrounding these respective areas, particularly during the winter months.

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mlovecan
4 hours ago, bubba said:

it would be interesting to know the water temperatures surrounding these respective areas, particularly during the winter months.

According to seatemperature info, yesterday the water temperature in Athens reached 15.9 C. Faro's hit 17.

In South Rhodes, we had 19.1. Karpathos (mentioned further up in the thread), they had 18.4.

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mlovecan
On 1/5/2022 at 10:08 AM, pietropuccio said:

It is the plants that tell us the zone, not the formulas or our desires, try to grow the palms that are considered by most growers 10b, in open field and without protection, and then we talk about it again.

Palmpedia has a non-USDA zone listing:

https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/MEDITERRANEAN_SURVIVABILITY_INDEX

I already had many successes and failures before finding this page. The groupings are quite consistant with my experiences.

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pietropuccio

Hello Maurice,

in USDA zone 10b the coconut grows unprotected and luxuriant, if it dies or grows with difficulty it cannot be 10b. Of course, if you want to create a different mapping, specific for the Mediterranean, you need a lot of tests on many species, this is just a small list that I have tried in about 50 years in Palermo, which I consider (USDA) 9b superior:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/71570-in-depth-analysis-of-the-athens-riviera-climate-and-palm-potential/&do=findComment&comment=1030141

 

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mlovecan
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

Hello Maurice,

in USDA zone 10b the coconut grows unprotected and luxuriant, if it dies or grows with difficulty it cannot be 10b.

I am definitely in a zone 10b. In 19 years in Rhodes, I have never experienced freezing temperatures.  

However, the coconut palm is exceptional in that it has great difficulty in cool wet rains in a mediterranean winter. More success can be attained in a sub-tropical 10a or even 9b area of Florida, for example.  

One week of wet days that do not exceed 15 degrees will kill the Dutch cocos everytime. I refer to the Dutch cocos (Cost Rican sourced nuts) as they are very easy to buy but I have only heard of them surviving in Europe, with initial difficulties, in the Canaries. 

However, I am greatly encouraged by Jonathon's work in Malta - especially with the Indian varieties - he rates the Indian and Southeast Asian varieties as much more tolerant than the Dutch ones (or Costa Rican varieties in general) - I've seen them with my own eyes.  The Indian ones seem to be thriving. The Dutch ones were still alive but going down quickly (they just died this week). I am strongly impressed by his work and confident the Indian are a completely different animal than the Dutch cocos. These ones truly seem to be tolerant of a mediterranean winter.

Regards

Maurice 

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bubba

I agree completely with the statement that “what grows determines the zone and not vice versa”. The Mediterranean climate throughout  the entirety of Europe together  with the extremely high latitudes that encounter virtually tropical weather is truly amazing.

The possibility of growing Cocos nucifera throughout this region is limited only by the will of the particular palmsters. The Magic number of 60°F is approached if not reached in a number of areas in this region. I applaud the hard work and determination and expect that in the near future we will have a viable coconut palm at the furthest latitude from the equator in this region.

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pietropuccio
2 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I am definitely in a zone 10b. In 19 years in Rhodes, I have never experienced freezing temperatures.  

In the last 60 years the absolute minimum in the coastal area of Palermo has been +1.4 °C, and the average absolute minimum + 4.3 °C, and the coconut dies, but also many species from zone 10b die or grow with difficulty, unless you are in a very sheltered position. As has already been said several times, the long winter period with average low temperatures, even if never close to or below 0 ° C (and the high humidity) is what most affects the survival or optimal growth of many tropical and subtropical plants.

When the coconuts look like this on a coastal area of the Mediterranean, that will be a 10b zone :):

 

CocosF.jpg.98e42b92dea0ddf893ac2be7c4057e0b.jpg

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petiole10
11 hours ago, bubba said:

I believe Petiole was simply making an observation regarding the similarity between the climate of the Athens Riviera and the Portugal Riviera, located in and around Faro. The Red Latan pictured is far more tropical than the Queen Palm.

I suspect that the Atlantic ocean near the Portugal Riviera may well be warmer than the waters of the Mediterranean. This is a complete guess on my part and it would be interesting to know the water temperatures surrounding these respective areas, particularly during the winter months.

Yes, thankyou - that is one of the central points/comparisons I was trying to make.  The Mediterranean covers quite an expanse from west to east with the warmest waters furthest east.

GFSOPEU00_0_35.png

 

Overall, though there is not a lot of difference between the immediate waters surrounding the Algarve coastline and those within the main Med regions. Though values quickly increase south of the Algarve coastline towards NW Africa and especially the Canary Islands.  My own location is a little north of the 'Portuguese Riviera' adjacent to the Atlantic 'Silver coast'. The maritime influences are apparent here much more - exposed as it is to the wide expanse of the Atlantic ocean and more so than the rather sheltered southern 'Riviera' coast.  This still means though that the fringes of the coastlines of southern and western Portugal retain the modifying effects of the ocean during winter, with frosts most rare. Eastward and northward into the Iberian continent and that incidence increases incrementally.

The upshot is that palms like the Latan (for example) can only really be grown outdoors all year within the Maritime coastal strip. Some 100km and more inland there is much greater restriction, even though the hottest summer temperatures are found here.  The continental Mediterranean climate is significantly colder (more especially at night) than than the Atlantic Mediterranean during winter. I find my own location position somewhat betwixt and between the two !

It would be interesting to have some kind of comparative analysis with the Athens Riviera.

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tim_brissy_13
7 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

In the last 60 years the absolute minimum in the coastal area of Palermo has been +1.4 °C, and the average absolute minimum + 4.3 °C, and the coconut dies, but also many species from zone 10b die or grow with difficulty, unless you are in a very sheltered position. As has already been said several times, the long winter period with average low temperatures, even if never close to or below 0 ° C (and the high humidity) is what most affects the survival or optimal growth of many tropical and subtropical plants.

 

When the coconuts look like this on a coastal area of the Mediterranean, that will be a 10b zone :):

 

CocosF.jpg.98e42b92dea0ddf893ac2be7c4057e0b.jpg

 

There are very clear definitions for each USDA zone. I agree that they often have limited value for Mediterranean other some other temperate climates such as my own, but to make adjustments to the actual USDA zone an area is will just cause confusion. 
 

I’m in a borderline 10a/10b USDA zone by definition, that’s just a fact. However I’m about 1500km too far south to grow a coconut and many other subtropical and tropical species struggle or die here. But even to make an adjustment and say I’m in a zone 9 has no value; many cool hardy species which do not have good frost hardiness actually do well (for example Archontophoenix tuckeri, myolensis, Hawaiian Pritchardia species and others generally known as zone 10 palms). On the flip side, some extremely cold/frost hardy palms which are known as zone 9 or lower don’t actually do well due to lack of year round heat. Bismarckia is marginal, Arenga engleri grows painfully slowly, I don’t know of any large and happy Nannorrhops or Rhapidophyllum and they are just about the most cold hardy palms in the world by absolute minimum temperature. 

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pietropuccio
19 hours ago, petiole10 said:

It would be interesting to have some kind of comparative analysis with the Athens Riviera.

To see, a priori, what can and cannot grow in your garden, there are two methods, that of the USDA zones and the direct one. With the first method, if you overestimate your area (which almost always happens) before realizing it you will have lost plants, time and money. The second method consists in looking around, seeing what grows in nearby gardens and parks, broadening the horizon to climatically similar situations. Palermo and Athens overlook the Mediterranean Sea at practically the same latitude and have very similar temperatures, since for 50 years I have been "playing" with tropical plants I have offered my experience with a first list of palms tested in the field, if this is deemed useful, even for other locations with similar characteristics, I can continue.

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Phoenikakias
11 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

There are very clear definitions for each USDA zone. I agree that they often have limited value for Mediterranean other some other temperate climates such as my own, but to make adjustments to the actual USDA zone an area is will just cause confusion. 
 

I’m in a borderline 10a/10b USDA zone by definition, that’s just a fact. However I’m about 1500km too far south to grow a coconut and many other subtropical and tropical species struggle or die here. But even to make an adjustment and say I’m in a zone 9 has no value; many cool hardy species which do not have good frost hardiness actually do well (for example Archontophoenix tuckeri, myolensis, Hawaiian Pritchardia species and others generally known as zone 10 palms). On the flip side, some extremely cold/frost hardy palms which are known as zone 9 or lower don’t actually do well due to lack of year round heat. Bismarckia is marginal, Arenga engleri grows painfully slowly, I don’t know of any large and happy Nannorrhops or Rhapidophyllum and they are just about the most cold hardy palms in the world by absolute minimum temperature. 

Look in to your soil quality regarding the Mazari and the Needle Palm. I have seen big exemplars in Rome's botanical garden and keep coming across mature specimens in the web in France and Italy.  Can't be so dramatically different the climate at your place. It just demonstrates,  the plethora of factors, which determine success of cultivation. But principally  I agree with your approach.  All systems have flaunts, only the distinction between cool and cold tolerant palms is entirely accurate in its generality and vagueness.

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Phoenikakias
40 minutes ago, pietropuccio said:

To see, a priori, what can and cannot grow in your garden, there are two methods, that of the USDA zones and the direct one. With the first method, if you overestimate your area (which almost always happens) before realizing it you will have lost plants, time and money. The second method consists in looking around, seeing what grows in nearby gardens and parks, broadening the horizon to climatically similar situations. Palermo and Athens overlook the Mediterranean Sea at practically the same latitude and have very similar temperatures, since for 50 years I have been "playing" with tropical plants I have offered my experience with a first list of palms tested in the field, if this is deemed useful, even for other locations with similar characteristics, I can continue.

It is a deja vu, every time one steps in the hobby. Overenthusiasm abounds in the beginning and cruel reality evens out initial ambitions.  You can not do much about this lol. In present case in particular, Palermo is much warmer than any place in Attica and I bet my money on that nowhere in Attica can be a Latania successfully cultivated. 

Edited by Phoenikakias

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pietropuccio
4 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Palermo is much warmer than any place in Attica and I bet my money on that nowhere in Attica can be a Latania successfully cultivated. 

I don't think that's the case. You have a very interesting collection and your experience is useful to everyone, I think your main problem is the lack of space. As for the Latania, the situation is no different in Palermo (better not to bet :)), the one that proved a little more tolerant to low temperatures was the vershaffeltii, I kept one in pot for many years outdoors, but in a sheltered position, when it is was transferred to open ground it died.

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sonoranfans
6 hours ago, pietropuccio said:

To see, a priori, what can and cannot grow in your garden, there are two methods, that of the USDA zones and the direct one. With the first method, if you overestimate your area (which almost always happens) before realizing it you will have lost plants, time and money. The second method consists in looking around, seeing what grows in nearby gardens and parks, broadening the horizon to climatically similar situations. Palermo and Athens overlook the Mediterranean Sea at practically the same latitude and have very similar temperatures, since for 50 years I have been "playing" with tropical plants I have offered my experience with a first list of palms tested in the field, if this is deemed useful, even for other locations with similar characteristics, I can continue.

the problem with the second method of seeing what is there is you underestimate the pool.  If I had used that method I would have no Beccariophoenix Alfredii, or satakentia or kentiopsis, which were new to the area.  I am betting Beccariophoenix alfredii will do well there to a warm 9a, yet you wont find any established.  Maybe a third method that combines the two and what is observed here on PT by palmtalkers in your area.

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pietropuccio
2 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

the problem with the second method of seeing what is there is you underestimate the pool.  If I had used that method I would have no Beccariophoenix Alfredii, or satakentia or kentiopsis, which were new to the area.  I am betting Beccariophoenix alfredii will do well there to a warm 9a, yet you wont find any established.  Maybe a third method that combines the two and what is observed here on PT by palmtalkers in your area.

Obviously I have been misunderstood, I have not written that the USDA zone method is useless, it is useless if you do not identify your zone with an acceptable margin of error. The second method is for those who are starting to take an interest in the cultivation of exotic plants precisely to identify the potential of their area and therefore also the USDA zone that best identifies their area.

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petiole10
3 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

the problem with the second method of seeing what is there is you underestimate the pool.  If I had used that method I would have no Beccariophoenix Alfredii, or satakentia or kentiopsis, which were new to the area.  I am betting Beccariophoenix alfredii will do well there to a warm 9a, yet you wont find any established.  Maybe a third method that combines the two and what is observed here on PT by palmtalkers in your area.

My 'method' as such is trying out palms I have not grown before by putting them in pots in this way so that they can be moved around and/or protected easily if an issue arises with some aspect of the conditions where they are placed. Also as juveniles they can be 'hardened off' as they grow prior to potentially being planted later as larger specimens.

I already have Kentiopsis oliviformis as juveniles in pots and am intending to order a large Beccariophoenix Alfredii in the Spring when they come back in stock. This will be planted out immediately as it should have no problems at all at any season and is quite cold hardy anyway.

My Latan palm, pictured on this thread, is in a pot. I wouldn't feel confident planting this out, yet at least, based on the chillier winter nights. I have some larger Foxtail palms which are planted out, but also a few very small juveniles and these are being carefully protected as needs be. I lost two of these seedling juveniles due to root rot before the end of last year. The other juveniles are doing ok and one especially has put out a few new leaves and is well outperforming the others.

Few,  if any of these palms mentioned are grown around here to the visible eye, but of course its hard to know what is in people's enclosed gardens and yards. Lisbon's public gardens have Kentia's and other exotics and as soon as it is possible with a new driving licence to get around easily, some visits to parks and gardens will be an inspiration.  The most dominant palm by far across the local skyline, based on the loss of so many CIDP to  red palm weevil, is Washingtonia.  These grow literally like weeds in my garden areas.

Mine is a very cautious approach overall, but bearing in mind I don't yet fully know the microclimate where I am, having only moved to Portugal last summer, i think it is the safest precautionary route to take till I have better experience.  So far, all the more tender palms in question have done well this winter (so far) based on sheltering them on the chilliest nights that have got close to, but not as yet, quite a frost - but giving them optimum time outside at all other times. A Licuala Grandis in a pot is the palm I am being most cautious with as it is probably the most tender of all of them.  The other aspect with this palm is the humidity and brown tipping of the leaves. When it is wet here in winter it is usually quite warm, so this palm is being given every opportunity to sit out in the rain and on the more humid cloudy days.  In summer it will need a lot of artificially raised humidity due to the heat and dryness. In this sense it will be placed within the canopy of the most shaded parts of the garden and where water features are placed to raise the humidity of the immediate atmosphere,  I have Chamaedorea species already planted in this shaded area and they were a great success in the heat of last summer under canopy.. 

I don't think there is any one solution to choice selection - but there is nothing like being new to a place and trying things out.Mistakes can and will happen, but how else can you learn without experience. Research obviously is important helps, but experience counts for so much as well.:)

Edited by petiole10

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sonoranfans
5 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

My 'method' as such is trying out palms I have not grown before by putting them in pots in this way so that they can be moved around and/or protected easily if an issue arises with some aspect of the conditions where they are placed. Also as juveniles they can be 'hardened off' as they grow prior to potentially being planted later as larger specimens.

I already have Kentiopsis oliviformis as juveniles in pots and am intending to order a large Beccariophoenix Alfredii in the Spring when they come back in stock. This will be planted out immediately as it should have no problems at all at any season and is quite cold hardy anyway.

My Latan palm, pictured on this thread, is in a pot. I wouldn't feel confident planting this out, yet at least, based on the chillier winter nights. I have some larger Foxtail palms which are planted out, but also a few very small juveniles and these are being carefully protected as needs be. I lost two of these seedling juveniles due to root rot before the end of last year. The other juveniles are doing ok and one especially has put out a few new leaves and is well outperforming the others.

Few,  if any of these palms mentioned are grown around here to the visible eye, but of course its hard to know what is in people's enclosed gardens and yards. Lisbon's public gardens have Kentia's and other exotics and as soon as it is possible with a new driving licence to get around easily, some visits to parks and gardens will be an inspiration.  The most dominant palm by far across the local skyline, based on the loss of so many CIDP to  red palm weevil, is Washingtonia.  These grow literally like weeds in my garden areas.

Mine is a very cautious approach overall, but bearing in mind I don't yet fully know the microclimate where I am, having only moved to Portugal last summer, i think it is the safest precautionary route to take till I have better experience.  So far, all the more tender palms in question have done well this winter (so far) based on sheltering them on the chilliest nights that have got close to, but not as yet, quite a frost - but giving them optimum time outside at all other times. A Licuala Grandis in a pot is the palm I am being most cautious with as it is probably the most tender of all of them.  The other aspect with this palm is the humidity and brown tipping of the leaves. When it is wet here in winter it is usually quite warm, so this palm is being given every opportunity to sit out in the rain and on the more humid cloudy days.  In summer it will need a lot of artificially raised humidity due to the heat and dryness. In this sense it will be placed within the canopy of the most shaded parts of the garden and where water features are placed to raise the humidity of the immediate atmosphere,  I have Chamaedorea species already planted in this shaded area and they were a great success in the heat of last summer under canopy.. 

I don't think there is any one solution to choice selection - but there is nothing like being new to a place and trying things out.Mistakes can and will happen, but how else can you learn without experience. Research obviously is important helps, but experience counts for so much as well.:)

I can agree, UDSA zones are not useful when comparing dry and humid climates.  The duration of cold is short in a dry climate but generally not short for the humid subtropical one.  We have had these discussions here for years, comparing southern california to florida.  The duration of (freezing) cold is a big factor.  California has a mediterranean climate, cold water off warmer dry land leading to short cold intrusions.  So a big royal may take only 26F to kill it in florida, it takes 22F and mostly survives in the arizona desert or inland CA.  So use the "freeze section" on this forum and see what people with your climate have tried.  We also know that Beccariophoenix can take 4-5F lower temp in CA than florida.  That is almost a half USDA zone.  

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Manos33
10 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

 Palermo is much warmer than any place in Attica. 

That is not true actually! Unless of course you mean during the winter. South Athens and the areas of the Athens Riviera within Metropolitan Athens is by far the warmest area of Continental Europe annually. With a simple mean annual T of close to 20.5C the past decade there is no match for the  Athens Riviera in Continental Europe. Now if you are referring to winters, yes Palermo has slightly higher minimums at least from the AP station. However downtown Palermo is a different story (as it is further from the sea) with lower minimums in the winter which are similar to Nea Smyrni NOA station.

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
On 1/7/2022 at 2:53 PM, pietropuccio said:

In the last 60 years the absolute minimum in the coastal area of Palermo has been +1.4 °C, and the average absolute minimum + 4.3 °C, and the coconut dies,

In the last 35 years according to the data from HNMS and NOA stations the absolute minimum in Kasos island has never dropped below +4.2°C and the average absolute minimum is around 7°C. This is Greece's warmest area during the winter, however since only few people live in Kasos it is impossible to know if the coconut dies over there. So, Europe might just surprise us if we only had more willing growers in areas that seem to be the warmest in the continent during the winter.

Edited by Manos33

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Phoenikakias
5 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

That is not true actually! Unless of course you mean during the winter. South Athens and the areas of the Athens Riviera within Metropolitan Athens is by far the warmest area of Continental Europe annually. With a simple mean annual T of close to 20.5C the past decade there is no match for the  Athens Riviera in Continental Europe. Now if you are referring to winters, yes Palermo has slightly higher minimums at least from the AP station. However downtown Palermo is a different story (as it is further from the sea) with lower minimums in the winter which are similar to Nea Smyrni NOA station.

WHO cares about summer temps?! Even in Ukraine summer temps are high enough to sustain growth of to many palm spp.  Moreover to high summer temps are rather detrimental for many palm spp and, when we talk about potted specimens, for almost all palms. Sorry , I do not feel in the mood to argue about so elementary and self evident issues.

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Manos33
Just now, Phoenikakias said:

WHO cares about summer temps?! Even in Ukraine summer temps are high enough to sustain growth of to many palm spp.  Moreover to high summer temps are rather detrimental for many palm spp and, when we talk about potted specimens, for almost all palms. Sorry , I do not feel in the mood to argue about so elementary and self evident issues.

Ok I mean you approach it purely on the basis of tropical plants while I approach it as an overall in depth climate analysis since this is what I enjoy most. Yes summers in Athens are suffocating and you are right, the Athenian summer heat can be detrimental for many tropical plants. We are talking about a mean monthly T of the hottest month which is exactly 30.0C the past decade according to NOA data. This was unheard of up to 10 years ago, at least by European standards. Even Seville  or Cordoba can't manage these mean summer T's, which goes to show that Athens is probably the most challenged city when we talk of climate change in Europe. 

Various international studies have shown that Athens will be the area worst hit by climate change in Europe if the trend continues. It is not surprising that Athens is the first city in Europe with an appointed Chief Heat Officer. The first ever such post to be created in Europe. That's how grim the reality of global warming is in Athens.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/09/17/europe-s-first-ever-chief-heat-officer-calls-for-more-focus-on-cooling-down-cities

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/21/world/europe/athens-is-only-getting-hotter-its-new-chief-heat-officer-hopes-to-cool-it-down.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/23/athens-appoints-chief-heat-officer-combat-climate-crisis

 

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Phoenikakias
43 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Ok I mean you approach it purely on the basis of tropical plants while I approach it as an overall in depth climate analysis since this is what I enjoy most. Yes summers in Athens are suffocating and you are right, the Athenian summer heat can be detrimental for many tropical plants. We are talking about a mean monthly T of the hottest month which is exactly 30.0C the past decade according to NOA data. This was unheard of up to 10 years ago, at least by European standards. Even Seville  or Cordoba can't manage these mean summer T's, which goes to show that Athens is probably the most challenged city when we talk of climate change in Europe. 

Various international studies have shown that Athens will be the area worst hit by climate change in Europe if the trend continues. It is not surprising that Athens is the first city in Europe with an appointed Chief Heat Officer. The first ever such post to be created in Europe. That's how grim the reality of global warming is in Athens.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/09/17/europe-s-first-ever-chief-heat-officer-calls-for-more-focus-on-cooling-down-cities

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/21/world/europe/athens-is-only-getting-hotter-its-new-chief-heat-officer-hopes-to-cool-it-down.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/23/athens-appoints-chief-heat-officer-combat-climate-crisis

 

Interesting, never heard before of a Chief Heat Officer! What is the official Greek title of this authority?

Here is roughly the situation in Attica (not concerning other regions with considerably milder winter weather such as southern and western islands) regarding cultivation of palms. Winter is persistently cool to cold and almost all palms but the very temperate ones adapted to continental climate suspend their growth during winter. Some among them are also shocked enough by they winter cold, so that they start promoting again new growth only lately in following warm season. Now imagine that same plants have to go through a second shock because of the to hot and dry summer days (and especially nights). What remains from a whole year for active growth are roughly half August and first two months in fall.  With barely one fourth of the whole year available to growth, conditions are ideal for a stunted, miserably looking specimen, which, if and when it suffers also winter cold damage, is the best candidate for a slow, languishing death. Not to mention other than temperature imo equally (if not more) crucial factors for a successful cultivation.  Sometimes in the light of aforementioned experience I say that palms in our climate do not bother about mean temperature but rather about the extreme values, which are unfortunately extremely extreme. 

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Manos33
1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

 which are unfortunately extremely extreme. 

Excluding the once in a century 2004 cold snap minimums rarely drop below 0C in the Athens Riviera. Last year with Mideia, the biggest snowstorm in Athens from 2008 the minimums barely dropped  from +0.2C (annual low in Nea Smyrni NOA station) to around -1C in other coastal areas. So the ''extremely extreme'' temperatures are mostly in the summer.  It' s in the summers that things are really nuts in Athens. The highest temperature ever recorded in Continental Europe during the 21st century for example was recorded in 2007 with 47.5C in Nea Filadelfeia, not to mention of course the official World Meteorological Organization heat record in Europe with 48.0C recorded in Athens back in 1977.

However, as you understand I am referring specifically to South Athens/Athens Riviera and not Attica in general which has areas in the extreme north suburbs situated at altitudes well above 400m and even some are over 500m. Obviously, these areas have really rough winters. That's the charm of the Attica climate. It is so diverse that you manage to see within Metropolitan Athens differences of up to 3C or even 4C in mean annual T's. Save for Los Angeles, I don't know any other Metropolitan area in the world with such a diverse climate. 

Edited by Manos33

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petiole10
14 hours ago, Manos33 said:

In the last 35 years according to the data from HNMS and NOA stations the absolute minimum in Kasos island has never dropped below +4.2°C and the average absolute minimum is around 7°C. This is Greece's warmest area during the winter, however since only few people live in Kasos it is impossible to know if the coconut dies over there. So, Europe might just surprise us if we only had more willing growers in areas that seem to be the warmest in the continent during the winter.

Everyone loves the coconut palm, but why is it such a focal benchmark?  There are so many other exotic palms with less precise parameters for their existence and which make any climate vs growing potential a more expansive and worthwhile exercise:)

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mlovecan
39 minutes ago, petiole10 said:

Everyone loves the coconut palm, but why is it such a focal benchmark?  There are so many other exotic palms with less precise parameters for their existence and which make any climate vs growing potential a more expansive and worthwhile exercise:)

There are lots of exotic palms out there I can grow that I don't have. However, once my garden became too full of successes that now tower over my house, the elusive challenge of a coconut tree is still there. I know I can attempt 3 cocos in less space (and chop something if I ever need to make room for a 3 meter tall cocos) than picking up another, say, Cuban Royal. 

Just the fact I have been able to keep a coconut alive a bit longer every year means something to me. 

 

Edited by mlovecan
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Manos33

A cold snap in a record breaking duration is expected to hit Athens starting this weekend.  The forecasts are predicting at least 6 days of maximums around 7C and minimums close to 0C for Athens. This duration is very rare for any cold snap in Athens. I am wondering how various tropical plants will behave in this cold snap. 

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Phoenikakias
9 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

A cold snap in a record breaking duration is expected to hit Athens starting this weekend.  The forecasts are predicting at least 6 days of maximums around 7C and minimums close to 0C for Athens. This duration is very rare for any cold snap in Athens. I am wondering how various tropical plants will behave in this cold snap. 

You call this close to 0 C ?! 

Screenshot_20220119-081913_Weather.thumb.jpg.3cb0cd069ff36264275e214504f80c89.jpg

-4 C equal 25 F but with ice on the foliage and persisting negative or zero minimum values in the following days. Sorry, this sounds even more serious than the notorious 2004 cold spell. I can tell you from first hand what it will happen. All crownshafted palms plus the Kentias and all Chamaedoreas except radicalis and microspadix will perish.  Phoenix roebelenii is done also. Parajubaea toralyi is at great risk, same Jubaeopsis and Beccariophoenix alfredii. Even life of Phoenix reclinata will be at stake.  If 2004 repeats, I get promptly out of the hobby and all palm fora.

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Manos33

That's the GFS (American) model. The European one has a different forecast. We will see which model prevails of course. We will know more around Friday 

 

1673337581_Screenshot2022-01-19at9_48_13PM.png.671af4a70531b2408064b838d3205cf2.png

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33

What is certain however is that it has never been so many consecutive days of so low T's in Athens. It surely surpasses the 2004 cold snap in terms of duration and it is probably even more days than the legendary 1934 cold snap.

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ego
On 1/8/2022 at 11:24 PM, Phoenikakias said:

Interesting, never heard before of a Chief Heat Officer! What is the official Greek title of this authority?

Επικεφαλής Αντιμετώπισης Αστικής Υπερθέρμανσης. Eleni Myrivili; she is the granddaughter of Stratis Myrivilis.

 

I'm waiting for you guys to reach a conclusion on the warmest road in Nea Smyrni so I can start looking for flats.

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