In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential

[Victor G.]

6 minutes ago, Janni said:

That is why I said that you‘ll have problems with strong winds, no matter where you are in Greece. I think the ravenala grew too high, so it suddenly was exposed to strong winds. 
I saw the temperatures in malia yesterday. Seems like it was classical headache weather! Within a few minutes they had a temperature rise from 19 to 30C and then, a couple of hours later, the same backwards. All that was accompanied with strong and of course completely dry foen winds! That is really not good for those plants like ravenala. 

But you can never expect the tropicals that grow ouside the tropics to look like in their native environment.

People in Miami say their coconuts look terrible in comparison with the ones in the Caribbean, and Miami is just a few degrees further up from being truly tropical.

[Than]

48 minutes ago, Janni said:

That is why I said that you‘ll have problems with strong winds, no matter where you are in Greece. I think the ravenala grew too high, so it suddenly was exposed to strong winds. 
I saw the temperatures in malia yesterday. Seems like it was classical headache weather! Within a few minutes they had a temperature rise from 19 to 30C and then, a couple of hours later, the same backwards. All that was accompanied with strong and of course completely dry foen winds! That is really not good for those plants like ravenala. 

I still suspect that insufficient irrigation + poor soil are the main culprits for smaller growth, not the wind. The wind dries the plant and tears the leaves. But if it had access to sufficient amounts of water perhaps it wouldn't matter?

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

Me too. I mean they're nice and all, but they are literally every 20 meters in Athens. A little variety doesn't hurt!

By the way and off-topic, but since you live in Zoumberi put your radio on 95,4

It's one thing I love about dikastika. You'll thank me (but probably you're gonna swear at me) later 

I used to hear during the 80's the radio from USA base in Kato Souli.

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Janni said:

That is why I said that you‘ll have problems with strong winds, no matter where you are in Greece. I think the ravenala grew too high, so it suddenly was exposed to strong winds. 
I saw the temperatures in malia yesterday. Seems like it was classical headache weather! Within a few minutes they had a temperature rise from 19 to 30C and then, a couple of hours later, the same backwards. All that was accompanied with strong and of course completely dry foen winds! That is really not good for those plants like ravenala. 

Ha, I had been in Malia in August  many years ago. Microclimate is very warm and not at all exposed to northern wind.

My garden is exposed to real strong northwestern wind, which I HATE !

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Victor G.]

2 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Ha, I had been in Malia in August several many years ago. Microclimate is very warm and not at all exposed to northern wind.

My garden is exposed to real strong northwestern wind, which I HATE !

 

Wow, that is some wind you got there! I have two videos of my place too (a friend came with a drone and I uploaded them on YT to show the family)

 

 

[Phoenikakias]

7 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Wow, that is some wind you got there! I have two videos of my place too (a friend came with a drone and I uploaded them on YT to show the family)

 

 

You are very close to sea shore, this may explain the surpsingly good minimum T values.

[Victor G.]

Just now, Phoenikakias said:

You are very close to sea shore, this may explain the surpsingly good minimum T values.

Definitely. The upper houses in Dikastika are (I think) at 200m elevation more or less. We went once or twice to watch the sunset from up there and the car said it was 1-2 degrees colder. When we went back down, it returned to the previous temperature.

Also in March it snowed a tiny bit in the upper houses, while in our place nothing - just some hail

[Than]

@Victor G. give me the name of the radio station cos I cannot find anything at 95,4. 

@Phoenikakias same here, super windy. I wish I could stop it. And it's also windy where that land plot I wanna buy is...  It was never windy in Indonesia. Never. That's why plants looked awesome there..

[Victor G.]

Just now, ego said:

@Victor G. give me the name of the radio station cos I cannot find anything at 95,4.

Nea Styra FM

I can listen to it in the car until I reach Pallini... and the car has no antenna!
Strange that you don't get a signal in Zoumberi

[Than]

2 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Nea Styra FM

I can listen to it in the car until I reach Pallini... and the car has no antenna!
Strange that you don't get a signal in Zoumberi

I just dunno how to search online radios using frequencies. Easier searching the station's name

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

I just dunno how to search online radios using frequencies. Easier searching the station's name

Ah okay, age gap!

I may be younger but I still use the dial on the FM radio (the actual device, not in the internet) to search for the station.

[Phoenikakias]

On 4/6/2022 at 12:01 AM, Victor G. said:

Yeah, and the area is arid AF in the summer.

Even the Pistacia Lentiscus there start to go brown and lose leaves, and they are very drought tolerant

Typical of montane area near the coast in Attica. This was actually the reason I changed from dicots to palms in first place. In summer, when I needed badly the shade, all trees were shedding their leaves and many got sick also. Even the most adapted spp like olive  and pine trees were shedding their leaves like crazy. Put in the equation the strong northern wind and you get the whole picture of a garden being deplorably messy. The litter of organics was beyond any feasible management.  Were there not the recently imported pslmivorous insects, palms woud still be one of the most suitable palm families for such landscapes.

[Phoenikakias]

On 4/6/2022 at 12:22 AM, Victor G. said:

You'll see when you'll be eating my home grown biological and naturally fertilized coconuts!!

I would recommend you'd better focus on Phoenix dactylifera strains able to produce edible dates in our climate. I have been on this project since many years and I try to collect seeds from specimens which produce already edible dates in Athens and Attica.  I have recently gathered two seeds from another specimen and gained out of those two healthy seedlings. Consider if you want to be part of the project, then I can give to you the seedlings.

[Victor G.]

31 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Typical of montane area near the coast in Attica. This was actually the reason I changed from dicots to palms in first place. In summer, when I needed badly the shade, all trees were shedding their leaves and many got sick also. Even the most adapted spp like olive  and pine trees were shedding their leaves like crazy. Put in the equation the strong northern wind and you get the whole picture of a garden being deplorably messy. The litter of organics was beyond any feasible management.  Were there not the recently imported pslmivorous insects, palms woud still be one of the most suitable palm families for such landscapes.

It's true, exactly like you said it. Only the native olive trees (they're wild olives if it makes a difference) seem to be doing fine in the summer.
In fact, I'm very impressed with how drought tolerant they are. We've had summers with 3 months of absolutely no rain, and everything else looked like before dying, while the olive trees looked the healthiest ever! (Actually noone trims them, so they're more like olive bushes)

[Victor G.]

22 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

I would recommend you'd better focus on Phoenix dactylifera strains able to produce edible dates in our climate. I have been on this project since many years and I try to collect seeds from specimens which produce already edible dates in Athens and Attica.  I have recently gathered two seeds from another specimen and gained out of those two healthy seedlings. Consider if you want to be part of the project, then I can give to you the seedlings.

As a matter of fact, my number one interest are date palms! I started this whole gardening project because of them.
Everyone had me convinced that dates do not ripen in our climate, but then I started seeing them, ripe, hanging on the trees. The I understood that people look at canary palms and say "see? I told you these don't ripen in Greece!".

I already have 7 little date palms, which I planted from Tunisian seeds. I think they're of the Medjool variety, but I'd like to get my hands on Zahidi as well, since they ripen earlier.
(Altough with the Medjool ones, if you remove most of them while they're underdeveloped you can make these giant king dates).

Problem is the soil is so rocky, they grow 3-4 times slower then they would. I'll switch to organic compost to fertilise, because I've been using Complesal and I'm extremely dissapointed (on other plants as well)

Notice how dried they look in the summer. I used to water them every other day, but when I switched to everyday they looked much better (and much greener)

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

As a matter of fact, my number one interest are date palms! I started this whole gardening project because of them.
Everyone had me convinced that dates do not ripen in our climate, but then I started seeing them, ripe, hanging on the trees. The I understood that people look at canary palms and say "see? I told you these don't ripen in Greece!".

I already have 7 little date palms, which I planted from Tunisian seeds. I think they're of the Medjool variety, but I'd like to get my hands on Zahidi as well, since they ripen earlier.
(Altough with the Medjool ones, if you remove most of them while they're underdeveloped you can make these giant king dates).

Problem is the soil is so rocky, they grow 3-4 times slower then they would. I'll switch to organic compost to fertilise, because I've been using Complesal and I'm extremely dissapointed (on other plants as well)

Notice how dried they look in the summer. I used to water them every other day, but when I switched to everyday they looked much better (and much greener)

Better not stick to already existing varieties.  Those are developed and adjusted to other, more arid and hotter climates. This way you put yourself  genetic restrictions and you do not exploit the immense potential genetic material. I would definitely start from already (not only fruiting but much more) edible dates producing exemplars within the borders of Attica.

Besides a good occasion that we test the theory of seed shape defining the gender of future plant.

 

[Victor G.]

16 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Better not stick to already existing varieties.  Those are developed and adjusted to other, more arid and hotter climates. This way you put yourself  genetic restrictions and you do not exploit the immense potential genetic material. I would definitely start from already (not only fruiting but much more) edible dates producing exemplars within the borders of Attica.

Besides a good occasion that we test the theory of seed shape defining the gender of future plant.

 

Yeah these seeds look a lot different that the ones I planted.

Like I said mine are Tunisian so they come from Qafsa, Qabes or Tozeur. They are more arid and hot than Dikastika of course, but nothing compared to the Arabian Desert, Sudan and Chad. In terms of both sunshine hours and temperature. So they might fruit, who knows?

In any case, I'll take your advice into consideration, cause you're right. There is a fruiting date palm in Nea Makri (two actually that I've seen, but one is on private property), si at some point I can drop by and take a few.
If you also grow date palms from seed, you know it's a giant pain in the butt! They took me 3 months to germinate and they really grow slowly

[Phoenikakias]

57 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Yeah these seeds look a lot different that the ones I planted.

Like I said mine are Tunisian so they come from Qafsa, Qabes or Tozeur. They are more arid and hot than Dikastika of course, but nothing compared to the Arabian Desert, Sudan and Chad. In terms of both sunshine hours and temperature. So they might fruit, who knows?

In any case, I'll take your advice into consideration, cause you're right. There is a fruiting date palm in Nea Makri (two actually that I've seen, but one is on private property), si at some point I can drop by and take a few.
If you also grow date palms from seed, you know it's a giant pain in the butt! They took me 3 months to germinate and they really grow slowly

You are still young and have plenty of time ahead.  The earlier you start the better. You can add to the soil during planting (swollen) water retentive crystals or drill later bores in the root zone and pour in dry ones. They work miraculously with all kinds of Phoenix in montane landscapes but I would not use them for other more tender palms.

 

 

[Victor G.]

12 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

You are still young and have plenty of time ahead.  The earlier you start the better.

True. It's a bit difficult while I'm still studying in Germany, because I come on holidays (Easter, Summer, Christmas). There's absolutely nobody taking care of the plants, that's why I only have a few and see if they make it. When I move permanently back to Greece (should be around October 2023 hopefully), I'll start much more intense palm planting and gardening.

 

14 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

You can add to the soil during planting (swollen) water retentive crystals or drill later bores in the root zone and pour in dry ones.

A question about these: are they environment friendly? I have a strict policy of not inserting any plastic or harmful materials or materials that don't decompose into the soil

[Phoenikakias]

59 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

True. It's a bit difficult while I'm still studying in Germany, because I come on holidays (Easter, Summer, Christmas). There's absolutely nobody taking care of the plants, that's why I only have a few and see if they make it. When I move permanently back to Greece (should be around October 2023 hopefully), I'll start much more intense palm planting and gardening.

 

A question about these: are they environment friendly? I have a strict policy of not inserting any plastic or harmful materials or materials that don't decompose into the soil

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/ive-always-wondered-are-water-crystals-bad-for-the-environment-112519

How environentally hostile can be turning an arid landscape to green land and protecting it from erosion? Only I know is that in  past autumn a mountain frog reappeared after many many years and laid eggs on the swollen crystals.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Phoenikakias

[Victor G.]

29 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/ive-always-wondered-are-water-crystals-bad-for-the-environment-112519

How environentally hostile can be turning an arid landscape to green land and protecting it from erosion? Only I know is that in  past autumn a mountain frog reappeared after many many years and laid eggs on the swollen crystals.

Yeah I get it, but I don't want to battle aridity with plastic or something. My plan (after I move to Greece permanently) is to go almost every weekend to Dikastika and take care of the plants. I have an automatic irrigation system anyway. The problem is that it sometimes gets disconnected of gets holes (summer heat destroys it) or someone turns it off (I swear, this has happened to me 3-4 times so far).

But seems like the don't have a negative impact (according to the article), so I might use them when I come down. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Than]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

You are still young and have plenty of time ahead.  The earlier you start the better. You can add to the soil during planting (swollen) water retentive crystals or drill later bores in the root zone and pour in dry ones. They work miraculously with all kinds of Phoenix in montane landscapes but I would not use them for other more tender palms.

 

 

Today I added myccorhizae to some of my plants. Does it do anything?

Btw can Hyophorbe indica survive in Attica?

[Phoenikakias]

Ι applied mycobacteria and mycorrhizae last summer and nevertheless I lost during summer three of my most precious palms. All autumn long I was applying every month strong fungicides on half my garden to prevent more losses.  And yes I saw improvement with the fungicides, something I did notice of course after the use of those biologocal means. All I can say is that at least they did not protect my plants and I will never use them again! 

Hyophorbe is a no, no, no in our climate. I have lost tens of them during the past years.

[southathens]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:06 PM, Phoenikakias said:

Hyophorbe is a no, no, no in our climate. I have lost tens of them during the past years.

 The mildest areas of the Athens Riviera like the Voula/Vouliagmeni/Laimos/Kabouri/Vari coastline might see Hyophorbe indica survive. I reckon even downtown Piraeus and around the port might actually manage provided of course you have dedicated gardeners who irrigate them and moisturise them constantly. 

Unfortunately while the Athens Riviera has an exceptionally mild climate it is simultaneously one of the driest places in Greece and Europe and this is a huge challenge for many tropicals. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Manos33

[Phoenikakias]

https://www.kalliergeia.com/mesa-methodoi-texnikes-sporas-foinikoeidwn/

[southathens]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:35 PM, Manos33 said:

But by far the strongest foehn effect in Attica is seen in the Thriasio Plain during the summer when Elefsina, Mandra and Aspropirgos loose any characteristic of seaside areas and become the hottest parts of Attica and Greece. In fact because of this very characteristic Attica holds the European temperature record of 48C in Elefsina. It should be noted that Elefsina has the highest frequency in Greece's meteorological history with T's over 45C. It beats Larisa, Argos, Sparta and so on. The foehn in Elefsina is next level foehn for Greece's standards. This is due to the huge mountains directly N, W and E of Elefsina. 

A strong foehn day yesterday in Elefsina which registered the highest T in Attica once again with 26.6C. The dry hot foehn winds over in Thriasio must make it very hard for some tropicals to manage well. I think they will need a lot of irrigation in the Elefsina area....and to be honest I don't remember the wider Elefsina area having any outstanding palms

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Manos33

[Than]

By the way Skyexpress has an offer, buy 1 ticket get one free. In case anyone wants to go to Kasos or Karpathos. Only valid for the next 20 days. Perfect period to plant coconuts 

[Than]

Oh and I was told that around Koliatsou sq there are shops that sell Indian or Bangladeshi coconuts. Not sure if it's accurate. In case anyone passes by 

[Victor G.]

5 minutes ago, ego said:

By the way Skyexpress has an offer, buy 1 ticket get one free. In case anyone wants to go to Kasos or Karpathos. Only valid for the next 20 days. Perfect period to plant coconuts 

Kasos has an airport? Wow!

Rhodes' airport looks like a small kiosk and it's a big island. I wonder how Kasos' airport looks like

[Than]

@Manos33 and @Victor G. You guys must coordinate. Victor is going to Rhodes soon. Manos if you've found someone on social media from Lindos who wants to try a coconut there...

[Than]

Just now, Victor G. said:

Kasos has an airport? Wow!

Rhodes' airport looks like a small kiosk and it's a big island. I wonder how Kasos' airport looks like

There's only one way to find out

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

@Manos33 and @Victor G. You guys must coordinate. Victor is going to Rhodes soon. Manos if you've found someone on social media from Lindos who wants to try a coconut there...

I'll be staying in Faliraki 18-21 and in Pefkoi 21-26. The second is only a breath away from Lindos!

Plus the second apartments have bananas, papayas and stuff planted. Sounds like our kind of guy. (*evil laugh*)

[Than]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

I'll be staying in Faliraki 18-21 and in Pefkoi 21-26. The second is only a breath away from Lindos!

Plus the second apartments have bananas, papayas and stuff planted. Sounds like our kind of guy. (*evil laugh*)

Oh man that's a great opportunity. Any Indian coconuts in German Lidl? Haha.

[Victor G.]

5 minutes ago, ego said:

Oh man that's a great opportunity. Any Indian coconuts in German Lidl? Haha.

Ah I don't go to Lidl here, mainly cause I don't have any where I live.

In the supermarket I found from Ivory Coast and in the biological grocery store from South America I think (Peru or something).

But they are very bad quality, both. I used to buy them because I love coconuts and one out of three was black from the inside and tasted/smelled horribly.
I don't know if these have high chances to sprout, or if they'll produce a good quality plant.
Then again, it might not matter at all.

But why are Indian coconuts more cold tolerant? As far as I know, they grow mostly in the south of India, which is purely tropical, or not?

[Than]

Just now, Victor G. said:

Ah I don't go to Lidl here, mainly cause I don't have any where I live.

In the supermarket I found from Ivory Coast and in the biological grocery store from South America I think (Peru or something).

But they are very bad quality, both. I used to buy them because I love coconuts and one out of three was black from the inside and tasted/smelled horribly.
I don't know if these have high chances to sprout, or if they'll produce a good quality plant.
Then again, it might not matter at all.

But why are Indian coconuts more cold tolerant? As far as I know, they grow mostly in the south of India, which is purely tropical, or not?

It has to do with their genes, not where they grow. They seem to have better genes by coincidence. At least that's what everyone in palmtalk says. You can find a few threads where people discuss it. 

I bought two coconuts from Lidl. Both from ivory coast. One sprouted within 5 days but then the root rot. Dunno what I did wrong. 

[Than]

Remember the coconuts in Malta? The ones that looked better always were the Indian ones. And the last ones to die 

[Victor G.]

1 minute ago, ego said:

It has to do with their genes, not where they grow. They seem to have better genes by coincidence. At least that's what everyone in palmtalk says. You can find a few threads where people discuss it. 

I bought two coconuts from Lidl. Both from ivory coast. One sprouted within 5 days but then the root rot. Dunno what I did wrong. 

5 days? I've read that coconuts need months to sprout!

Those coconuts are very bad quality, because from the moment they are picked until the moment they reach the shelf and you buy them a few months maybe even pass.
Same problem here. I stopped buying them because they are black and smelly from the inside.

Coconuts are not like normal seeds. Normal seeds can dry and be stored for years until they are planted; and they still can produce a healthy plant.

Coconuts on the other hand need to be relatively fresh and full of water to sprout properly. Same as onions and garlic. If you keep an onion for months it will first turn black and then dry out completely. You can plant it afterwards, but it won't sprout.

[Than]

I was surprised too at the speed

[Victor G.]

8 minutes ago, ego said:

I was surprised too at the speed

There's another aspect to consider when buying fruit that comes from far away; the chemical treatments they undergo.

For example, here in Germany, literally all of the fruit comes from other countries (south Europe, south Africa, south America, ...)
What they do with citrus fruit for example, is they pick them while they're still green and unripe on the tree.
Then, they transport them to Germany, were they spray them with ethylene gas, which aggresively ripens the fruit.
When the fruit becomes ripe, they spray it with other chemicals, such as imazalil and pyrimethanil, which are anti-fungal and prevent the fruit from going bad while it's in storage.
This creates a (cancerous) coating around the fruit and it can sit for weeks before being sold, maintaining it's "freshness".

The result is a non-tasting fruit. You can bypass this by bying the biological fruit, which is sprayed with more "friendly" and non-cancerous chemicals. 6 mandarines for 3 Euros. Yep, I'm not kidding!

Anyway all this process really weakens the fruit. I don't know about coconuts but I wouldn't be surprised if they treat them as well. Don't forget, they grow in the tropical zones and must be transported all they way to Russia/Finland/Canada, etc. which takes weeks at best. That can be one reason for your plant to fail.

[southathens]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

Kasos has an airport? Wow!

Rhodes' airport looks like a small kiosk and it's a big island. I wonder how Kasos' airport looks like

Of course Kasos has an airport. This is where the HNMS station is located from 1989! The airport is just outside Fri.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Manos33