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In depth analysis of the Athens Riviera climate and palm potential


southathens

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Social media!

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15 hours ago, ego said:

Basically, Monemvasia is just 0,1 below 11a.

Yep,  according to the official NOA station data between 2008-2021 Monemvasia was the only area of continental Greece at zone 11a. I was monitoring Monemvasia for its mildness the past few years and I am sure it will go back to 11a zone next year. 

Generally the SE and SW tips of Peloponnese should be the only areas in continental Greece where 11a zone can be found. It's a pity we only have Monemvasia station in the wider area. 

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1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Social media!

Give us details. It's interesting how you managed to do it given that most people in Kasos must be 60+? I'm intrigued. Did you find some group on FB? Was any reply in particular enthusiastic?

previously known as ego

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Yeah from FB. There are two groups I found so far. One for both Kasos and Karpathos and the other for Kasos only. Come on there are a lot of young people in the islands. Especially in Karpathos!

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31 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Yeah from FB. There are two groups I found so far. One for both Kasos and Karpathos and the other for Kasos only. Come on there are a lot of young people in the islands. Especially in Karpathos!

What's the group's name?

previously known as ego

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Is it just me or are the winters getting colder? 2017, 2019, 2021 and 2022 had in many locations lower numbers than the average of the past years. Especially the last two winters (2021 & 2022) brought the averages down in some locations (not enough to change zones but still).

If the next winter (2023) will be like the winter of 2021, both Faliro and Nea Smyrni will be back to the 10a zone (I ran it in excel)

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1 hour ago, ego said:

What's the group's name?

We should start a new one called "Kasos and Karpathos coconut growers".
Of course it will be just us, Atticans, but in time maybe it will pick up

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1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

We should start a new one called "Kasos and Karpathos coconut growers".
Of course it will be just us, Atticans, but in time maybe it will pick up

Let's!

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previously known as ego

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4 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Is it just me or are the winters getting colder? 2017, 2019, 2021 and 2022 had in many locations lower numbers than the average of the past years. Especially the last two winters (2021 & 2022) brought the averages down in some locations (not enough to change zones but still).

If the next winter (2023) will be like the winter of 2021, both Faliro and Nea Smyrni will be back to the 10a zone (I ran it in excel)

I asked a meteorologist and he told me that even though snowfall will increase, the temperatures won't decrease.

previously known as ego

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9 hours ago, Manos33 said:

And here is Faliro NOA station 2013-2022. A 10b zone as well.

Mind you Faliro NOA station is smack bang on the coast. Whereas I believe @Phoenikakias your house in Faliro is not in the coast right? If you are in the Faliro coast then you are 10b zone the past decade. 

717901763_Screenshot2022-04-01at3_25_46AM.png.1e4f675f80c34c36bfab6ae1c5098507.png

Lol I do not live in Faliro but in downtown Athens. I only own a weekend house with garden in the south coast outside the urbanized region of the capital at 138 m altitude 200 m far from sea.  Inforest gives it as 10A (0,0 C  average lowest yearly through out the years).  Only problem is that my property is positioned windward, while in same area only 150 m away landscape  is much more protected from the wind.  Bear in mind, that in Amphitheas avn there were three or more large fruiting Archontophoenix alexandrae specimens. All killed by the 2004 cold spell, What remains in my memory, is that this sp could not survive for whole 20 years in one of the best microclimates in Attica. Sorry I can not help thinking otherwise.  What you suggest about the directly neighbouring to sea front areas in P Phaliro may be true, but unfortunately the place is highly urbanized and space for a private garden is directly out of question. We can only talk about public planting, whereas other problems arise immediately, like protection from vamdalism and, most crucially, irrigation during summer. And not just irrigation to help a plant survive the xerothermic summer, but plenty of it, so that the palm can take full advantage of warm season and promote so much growth, it can compensate missing one during the prolonged cool season. 

Edited by Phoenikakias
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12 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Lol I do not live in Faliro but in downtown Athens. I only own a weekend house with garden in the south coast outside the urbanized region of the capital at 138 m altitude 200 m far from sea.  Inforest gives it as 10A (0,0 C  average lowest yearly through out the years).  Only problem is that my property is positioned windward, while in same area only 150 m away landscape  is much more protected from the wind.  Bear in mind, that in Amphitheas avn there were three or more large fruiting Archontophoenix alexandrae specimens. All killed by the 2004 cold spell, What remains in my memory, is that this sp could not survive for whole 20 years in one of the best microclimates in Attica. Sorry I can not help thinking otherwise.  What you suggest about the dierctly neighbouring to sea front areas in P Phaliro may be true, but unfortunately the place is highly urbanized and space for a private garden is directly out of question. We can only talk about public planting, whereas other problems arise immediately, like protection from vamdalism and, most crucially, irrigation during summer. And not just irrigation to help a plant survive the xerothermic summer, but plenty of it, so that the palm can take full advantage of warm season and promote so much growth, it can compensate missing one during the prolonged cool season. 

I wonder what your water bill is in the summer.

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previously known as ego

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10 minutes ago, ego said:

I asked a meteorologist and he told me that even though snowfall will increase, the temperatures won't decrease.

I don't trust anyone from this point on.

I distinctly remember reading a lot of researches (from different scientists) about 5-6 years ago claiming that the absolute minimum temperatures will increase in the mediterranean region (they mentioned Athens as well).
In addition to that, a shift in hardiness zones was projected (9b becoming 10a, 10a becoming 10b,...) which would be accelerated by the increasing effect of climate change.

Here we are, a few years later and we got two bad winters 2021 and 2022.
When I say bad I don't mean record-breaking in any case, but they were definitely contradictory to what the researches showed.

Now before anyone starts typing an answer keep these points in mind:

  • I'm NOT talking about the mean annual temperatures. We've covered it with Manos extensively (no need to do it over again; it's in this forum) and yes, it has gotten warmer.
    I'm merely talking about each year's absolute minimum temperatures.
  • Two bad winters doesn't mean that it's goona go like that, but to me, some signs are there (record low in Kasos, snow in Rhodos,...)

Call me pesimistic of you want, but I don't see the drastical change everyone was talking about 5 years ago (again, regarding the absolute low temperatures)

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57 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Lol I do not live in Faliro but in downtown Athens. I only own a weekend house with garden in the south coast outside the urbanized region of the capital at 138 m altitude 200 m far from sea.  Inforest gives it as 10A (0,0 C  average lowest yearly through out the years).  Only problem is that my property is positioned windward, while in same area only 150 m away landscape  is much more protected from the wind.  Bear in mind, that in Amphitheas avn there were three or more large fruiting Archontophoenix alexandrae specimens. All killed by the 2004 cold spell, What remains in my memory, is that this sp could not survive for whole 20 years in one of the best microclimates in Attica. Sorry I can not help thinking otherwise.  What you suggest about the dierctly neighbouring to sea front areas in P Phaliro may be true, but unfortunately the place is highly urbanized and space for a private garden is directly out of question. We can only talk about public planting, whereas other problems arise immediately, like protection from vamdalism and, most crucially, irrigation during summer. And not just irrigation to help a plant survive the xerothermic summer, but plenty of it, so that the palm can take full advantage of warm season and promote so much growth, it can compensate missing one during the prolonged cool season. 

Since you mentioned Archontophoenices, is tuckeri less hardy that cunninghamiana and alexandrae?

previously known as ego

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1 minute ago, ego said:

WInter of 2020 was mild though, no?

Yeah it was. Only Rafina managed to go down to -0,3C somehow (while Nea Makri was at 1,7C)

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25 minutes ago, ego said:

Since you mentioned Archontophoenices, is tuckeri less hardy that cunninghamiana and alexandrae?

Than cunninhamiana certainly, than alexandrae not sure. But bear in mind that many alexandrae specimens are actually hybrids with cunninhamiana.

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2 hours ago, ego said:

I wonder what your water bill is in the summer.

So much that I prefer a potentially palm killing winter than a drought in summer. Palms can be found neither in the poles nor in the real desert.

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Just now, Phoenikakias said:

So much that I prefer a potentially palm killing winter than a drought in summer. Palms can be found neither in the poles nor in the real desert.

Seems like we're headed for the whole package, no worries!

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6 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Seems like we're headed for the whole package, no worries!

Ha ha ha not entirely (yet). Just search in the web pictures of people in S Africa queuing with a hand container for some water. I would gladly give up on all my palms, in order to avoid such an experience. Given those circumstances I consider snow a blessing!

Edited by Phoenikakias
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Just now, Phoenikakias said:

Ha ha ha not entirely (yet). Just search in the web pictures of people in S Africa queuing with a hand container for some water. I would gladly give up in all my palms, in order to avoid such an experience. Given those circumstances I consider snow a blessing!

True, I was overreacting for sarcasm. Besides, we only have the summer drought, and no matter how much the climate changes, I don't believe we'll ever have this kind of drought like in South Africa.
Manos said we're getting more rain now (at least in downtown Athens) than before

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1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

What happened?

I mean I need help with my addiction so I don't buy again.  Joke. 

Re South Africa perhaps it's also due to poor infrastructure (bringing water to the cities from afar)?

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previously known as ego

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1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

True, I was overreacting for sarcasm. Besides, we only have the summer drought, and no matter how much the climate changes, I don't believe we'll ever have this kind of drought like in South Africa.
Manos said we're getting more rain now (at least in downtown Athens) than before

Winter 2021 was apart from Midea extremely dry.  Drought in winter affects very negatively.

On 10th May 2021 less than 200m away from my property

Screenshot_20220401-150628_Gallery.thumb.jpg.3c6f3c5209259daa1c335006ff4966eb.jpg

In Thrakomakedones

Screenshot_20210803-210811_Facebook.thumb.jpg.ea9fb4f761f8830de6facce858fd9364.jpgScreenshot_20210804-044839_Facebook.thumb.jpg.f58a66665aba73449833bfd2adddc2c2.jpg

The smoke from the wild fire in Kineta had reached Anavissos, One could hardly breath and see along the Saronik coast. Everything was so dystopian thank to the previous dry winter.

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The fires in Attica every summer are shocking and they are also partly responsible for more flood events in urban areas. 

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5 hours ago, Victor G. said:

We should start a new one called "Kasos and Karpathos coconut growers".

I prefer '' National Committee for the protection of Kasos and Karpathos coconuts''. To make it sound more official :P

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Btw Crete was almost 33C today due to the strong foehn winds. 

Oropos was around 27C and registered the highest T in Attica. Remember what I told you about S winds in E Attica?

Edited by Manos33
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1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

I prefer '' National Committee for the protection of Kasos and Karpathos coconuts''. To make it sound more official :P

Agreed but replace "protection" with "production".

We wanna sound real professional, not pathetically trying to grow one single coconut.

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1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Btw Crete was almost 33C today due to the strong foehn winds. 

Oropos was around 27C and registered the highest T in Attica. Remember what I told you about S winds in E Attica?

Larisa did also good with 26,2C.

I swear, everytime I look at this city, it's either 45C or -5C and there's no inbetween!

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2 hours ago, Manos33 said:

The fires in Attica every summer are shocking and they are also partly responsible for more flood events in urban areas. 

Not in the extent of the dry 2021 nonetheless.

Edited by Phoenikakias
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59 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Agreed but replace "protection" with "production".

We wanna sound real professional, not pathetically trying to grow one single coconut.

:floor:

previously known as ego

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If you make the group give us the link. "Aegean coconuts" perhaps?

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previously known as ego

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11 minutes ago, ego said:

If you make the group give us the link. "Aegean coconuts" perhaps?

By the way, if we plant say a thousand coconuts and keep only the ones that survive (if any) and breed them, we could create a new, more cold tolerant species.

I know it's not gonna happen but wouldn't it be nice? We could call it Cocos Manifera, a tribute to Manos who tries to persuade the communities of Kasos and Karpathos

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2 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

By the way, if we plant say a thousand coconuts and keep only the ones that survive (if any) and breed them, we could create a new, more cold tolerant species.

I know it's not gonna happen but wouldn't it be nice? We could call it Cocos Manifera, a tribute to Manos who tries to persuade the communities of Kasos and Karpathos

As a linguistics graduate I just had a mini stroke :floor:

previously known as ego

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1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

By the way, if we plant say a thousand coconuts and keep only the ones that survive (if any) and breed them, we could create a new, more cold tolerant species.

I know it's not gonna happen but wouldn't it be nice? We could call it Cocos Manifera, a tribute to Manos who tries to persuade the communities of Kasos and Karpathos

Manifera would mean something that has Manoses.  I guess Cocos Mani would be the correct form: "Manos's cocos".  Anyway we won't be around when the species emerges

previously known as ego

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OMG guys you won't believe it!!!!!! I was just talking with a German student of mine who is currently in Ierapetra on holidays! She sent me a photo of a cocos near her hotel, planted on the ground!!! It looks quite big, has started forming a trunk. I asked her and she said she always stays in that hotel and she remembers that tree from last year too!!! I asked her to send me clearer pics tomorrow!

Edited by ego
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previously known as ego

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2 minutes ago, ego said:

OMG guys you won't believe it!!!!!! I was just talking with a German student of mine who is currently in Ierapetra on holidays! She sent me a photo of a cocos near her hotel, planted on the ground!!! It looks quite big, has started forming a trunk. I asked her and she said she always stays in that hotel and she remembers that tree from last year too!!! I asked her to send me clearer pics tomorrow!

Post some photos when you get them.

I'm curious if it's really a coconut or a mistake

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1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

Post some photos when you get them.

I'm curious if it's really a coconut or a mistake

It's def a cocos, the yellow variety! No other palm has yellow-orange stems

previously known as ego

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