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Tracy

Ravenea julietiae?

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Tracy

I acquired this as Ravenea julietiae but there seems to be a little disagreement over this palm's actual identity as discussed in other's posts over the past decade.  It continues to push upward and is a beautiful palm.  I acquired a second about 2 years after this one, but it turned out to be something different and much slower growing.  Any updates from others growing something looking like this and acquired as R julietiae?

Unfortunately due to it's location it is hard to get a clean shot of the entire plant, so I've broken it down into a few photos.

20211213-BH3I6219.jpg

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20211213-BH3I6226.jpg

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quaman58

Tracey, it sure looks like what was going around as that a few years back. Weird how that supply just dried up. It’s just a great upright palm. I don’t know if any are trunking yet, but they’re just so impressive at the size yours is. And they’re so dang trouble free; they always look great around here. Would like to see the smaller one when you have time to post it.

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DoomsDave

Hmm 

I’ve got one that’s so recurved it looks like a Cycad 

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Stevetoad

mine looks like yours too! Great looking plant

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MattyB

That thing is cool!!!

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PalmatierMeg

It is truly. beautiful but I have doubts it is R. julietiae. It looks too upright. I'm sure it is a Ravenea but perhaps another perhaps undescribed species. Its conformation reminds me of my R. xerophila but greener, no bluish. Both species are extremely slow growing. I would love to have one like yours. See both of mine below.

Ravenea julietieae, Cape Coral, FL 2021

719980377_Raveneajulietiae0210-15-20.thumb.JPG.281a7f15dc27f22b4b43e977ab57583a.JPG1730763908_Raveneajulietiae0303-28-19.thumb.JPG.8e21eb9bf39e1f72f6fb15549ab0ab38.JPG

Ravenea xerophila, Cape Coral, FL 2020

581907656_Raveneaxerophila0105-02-20.thumb.JPG.d395607fe1d6b454a2c30b908e822084.JPG1963990607_Raveneaxerophila029-9-12.JPG.72c5df4c49c07a3bb9e6e8e375ee0b0a.JPG

 

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Tyrone

I’m going to put it out there and say it’s Ravenea krociana. I have 7 still in pots that I bought as Ravenea albicans. They need to go into the ground.

I bought some as seed from RPS and they were pinnate from the beginning without any white under the leaflets which albicans have. I then bought some seedlings from a north qld nursery as Ravenea albicans and they turned out to be the same thing. The description in POM seems to key out to Ravenea krociana. 

So far they’ve been a real easy grow and survived rat attacks, rabbit attacks, and anything the weather down here throws at them but they are kept in my protected shadehouse now. Will see if I can grab some pics this afternoon. 

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quaman58
5 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I’m going to put it out there and say it’s Ravenea krociana. I have 7 still in pots that I bought as Ravenea albicans. They need to go into the ground.

I bought some as seed from RPS and they were pinnate from the beginning without any white under the leaflets which albicans have. I then bought some seedlings from a north qld nursery as Ravenea albicans and they turned out to be the same thing. The description in POM seems to key out to Ravenea krociana. 

So far they’ve been a real easy grow and survived rat attacks, rabbit attacks, and anything the weather down here throws at them but they are kept in my protected shadehouse now. Will see if I can grab some pics this afternoon. 

For what it’s worth, years ago I bought 2 teeny palms from Floribunda listed as R. Krociana. They’re both still alive, but also very slow. They’re a different palm from what’s been sold as julietae.  And not as easy growing. This is a very difficult genus to know for sure what we’re growing. I’m pretty confidant about the id of rivularis, hillebrandii and glauca; all bets are off on the others in the garden

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Tracy
37 minutes ago, quaman58 said:

all bets are off on the others in the garden

Bret, maybe we should just call it the upright, easy to grow Ravenea with dark green leaves.  I'm not sure how that keys out in Latin.  More importantly, I wish I knew how to get another one that actually turns out to be the same thing.  This one was acquired from Phil & Jesse at Jungle Music here in Encinitas.  Perhaps they know more about it's origination and sourcing additional ones.  The appeal is that they seem to fit into a pretty tight footprint at least thus far and always looks great.  The cycad like eruption from the ground always catches non-palm people a bit off guard as well.

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quaman58

That’s a good one Tracey! Here’s some more Ravenea confusion: had one “julietae” already in ground, then I saw “louvelli” at Jungle Music. After a few years, it’s clear that they’re both the same palm, which is not terrible. Then Ron Lawyer sells me the “real deal louvelli” which is indeed different. I’m thinking “cool”! After which someone knowledgeable (who’s been to Madagascar) tells me that no one actually has louvelli in cultivation, that we’re all growing something else. Sigh…

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John hovancsek

I was just at a friends place and he was showing me both of his ravenea julietae and they both looked similar but you could tell they were different. There are not so many people running out to study ravenea species and may not know which one is true for a long time. Ravenea is an under rated in my opinion, some get massive 

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Tracy
46 minutes ago, John hovancsek said:

here are not so many people running out to study ravenea species and may not know which one is true for a long time. Ravenea is an under rated in my opinion,

 

5 hours ago, quaman58 said:

more Ravenea confusion: had one “julietae” already in ground, then I saw “louvelli” at Jungle Music. After a few years, it’s clear that they’re both the same palm, which is not terrible. Then Ron Lawyer sells me the “real deal louvelli” which is indeed different. I’m thinking “cool”! After which someone knowledgeable (who’s been to Madagascar) tells me that no one actually has louvelli in cultivation, that we’re all growing something else.

Further complicating things, I suspect that we are all a long way off from having something that will push out any sort of inflorescence for help in identification.  Does anyone know if the genus has a tendency to hybridize?  If they are like some of the other dioecious genra like Phoenix, which are very prone to hybridize, that would further complicate things in getting seed from non-habitat.  I'm not familiar with any crosses from the more common species like rivularis and glauca which would be an argument that they aren't prone to hybridization.

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LJG
6 hours ago, quaman58 said:

That’s a good one Tracey! Here’s some more Ravenea confusion: had one “julietae” already in ground, then I saw “louvelli” at Jungle Music. After a few years, it’s clear that they’re both the same palm, which is not terrible. Then Ron Lawyer sells me the “real deal louvelli” which is indeed different. I’m thinking “cool”! After which someone knowledgeable (who’s been to Madagascar) tells me that no one actually has louvelli in cultivation, that we’re all growing something else. Sigh…

Yep, this plant was being sold as both- all around the same time too :). Personally, I believe this is true Julietae. When reading POMs and you search up habitat pics online, you can see only Julietae compares to what we are all growing. For sure not Ravenea krociana, that is a much larger palm and grows and looks totally different. Krociana is super similar to Ravenea so. ‘Giant”.

Tracy, yours is a real beauty. Nice job.

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BS Man about Palms
19 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

It is truly. beautiful but I have doubts it is R. julietiae. It looks too upright. I'm sure it is a Ravenea but perhaps another perhaps undescribed species. Its conformation reminds me of my R. xerophila but greener, no bluish. Both species are extremely slow growing. I would love to have one like yours. See both of mine below.

Ravenea julietieae, Cape Coral, FL 2021

1730763908_Raveneajulietiae0303-28-19.thumb.JPG.8e21eb9bf39e1f72f6fb15549ab0ab38.JPG

Ravenea xerophila, Cape Coral, FL 2020

 

 

 

1 hour ago, LJG said:

Yep, this plant was being sold as both- all around the same time too :). Personally, I believe this is true Julietae. When reading POMs and you search up habitat pics online, you can see only Julietae compares to what we are all growing. For sure not Ravenea krociana, that is a much larger palm and grows and looks totally different. Krociana is super similar to Ravenea so. ‘Giant”.

Tracy, yours is a real beauty. Nice job.

Meg, I think the one pictured is Ravenea krociana as some noted, and like Len said, also "giant" looks like it. (Since POM refers to them as enormous Ravenea, description fits.) I could always pick them out as they seemed to have brown "freckles" on the petiole, as yours has. Although I will say I usually see them more prominent. 

Happy to say I was finally able to locate a replacement for my large 15 gal juliettae stolon from my front driveway over a year ago. :)  

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mike in kurtistown

Raveneas are beautiful palms, with their emerald-green leaves, many with long, narrow leaflets and others like sambiranensis with great arching leaves. It's too bad that there is so much species confusion.

The original Ravenea shown reminds me of the palms I grew from seeds sold many years ago (July 2007 and July 2008) by RPS as Ravenea lakatra. Here is a pic of the four I planted in my front yard (taken from my upper deck because of the incessant rain). (The big thing in the rear is Beccariophoenix fenestralis.)

lakatra_quartet_MLM_121721.thumb.JPG.2a762a41541821c6611560457ee40693.JPG

 

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Tracy
4 hours ago, BS Man about Palms said:

Happy to say I was finally able to locate a replacement for my large 15 gal juliettae stolon from my front driveway over a year ago. :)  

Major bummer about the stolen one Bill.  One has to wonder if the person that stole it even knew how to take care of it and if it survived.  I am curious where you found your replacement now though.  Below is the one that is a different species which is much slower.   I got it and planted it in June of 2019.  Unfortunately, I can blame myself for getting something different.  Phil had some others that looked stretched that were in larger containers, but I selected this one because it had more girth for its size and wasn't stretched.  I thought it would transition out of the greenhouse better.  The others were probably the same plant as my larger one.  Potted photo was just after I got and before planting it.

20190602-104A3651.jpg

20211217-BH3I6255.jpg

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Brad52
57 minutes ago, mike in kurtistown said:

Raveneas are beautiful palms, with their emerald-green leaves, many with long, narrow leaflets and others like sambiranensis with great arching leaves. It's too bad that there is so much species confusion.

The original Ravenea shown reminds me of the palms I grew from seeds sold many years ago (July 2007 and July 2008) by RPS as Ravenea lakatra. Here is a pic of the four I planted in my front yard (taken from my upper deck because of the incessant rain). (The big thing in the rear is Beccariophoenix fenestralis.)

lakatra_quartet_MLM_121721.thumb.JPG.2a762a41541821c6611560457ee40693.JPG

 

I have one of Mike's seedlings so I'm curious to see where this palm ends up namewise!

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mike in kurtistown

Looking at the first pic again, I noticed that there is some keeling to the leaves.  Looking in POM (not easy to read the botanical descriptions there), I find mention of keeling in three species: julietiae, glauca, and xerophylla. So I went out and looked at some of my Raveneas. Here is madagascariensis, which also has keeled leaves:

madagascariensis_MLM_121821.thumb.JPG.7f3c64dd9401202ae1ac2662ce3abbc9.JPG

Orange bucket is 5-gal. Then I looked at sambiranensis, which also has keeled (and very arching) leaves:

sambiranensis_MLM_121821.thumb.JPG.382eb048590579586b18d2d7fc7d387f.JPG

Then I looked at one of my glaucas. The leaves are NOT keeled. But then, aren't there two species named glauca? Here is a pic:

glauca_MLM_121821.thumb.JPG.3470b76b70b042633c29873a9e9508b3.JPG

Finally, a Ravenea species that has received some mention here is krociana. Here is a pic of my sole survivor:

 

krociana_MLM_121821.thumb.JPG.a60d75bcc71e5de14879cf15ab191ddb.JPG

Even here, the leaves do look a little keeled. But these massive leaves are entirely different from the first pic in this topic. My julietiae, unfortunately, didn't make it, so I can't help there. The one I have that seems to me to be most like the first pic is madagascariensis.

The leaves on my lakatras are flat, so picture one is not that species. Not xerophylla either, because that is bluish and way different.

I need to mention that many of my ID's are of seeds purchased from RPS, and could be incorrect, since RPS is dependent on field ID's from local people.  Other ID's are from Floribunda purchases. But Floribunda gets many of their seed batches from RPS, so the problem is the same.

This was a fun topic. thanks Tracy for starting it.

 

Edited by mike in kurtistown
Added an additional comment about seed sources.
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Cindy Adair

I am enjoying this topic and all the great photos! Thanks!

I have only one and it was attacked two years in a row by the rhinoceros beetle, but happily it seems determined to live.

I really like the cycad imitation look of this palm.

One day I hope to have more or at least that my attempt at a three layer beetle barrier lets this palm grow bigger...

EE3FDBF3-E1B7-4C51-BD6C-6B07F2F961EC.thumb.jpeg.4629835ff56c6f966dbdc4dff8ac5618.jpeg
 

A7688351-3B8D-411B-A333-FC891B645CD4.thumb.jpeg.ab94edfb364d44a56d3f5c17519e8d0d.jpeg

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Tracy
On 12/17/2021 at 8:46 AM, BS Man about Palms said:

Happy to say I was finally able to locate a replacement for my large 15 gal juliettae stolon from my front driveway over a year ago. :)

I just picked up this one from Gisela Sparkman after seeing that she has some as she is clearing out some of the remaining plants at Cycads-N-Palms in Fallbrook, the operation her husband George ran.  Due to a size constraint on how large a specimen that I could pick up in my vehicle, I got one of the smaller 15 gallon ones.  She had others she would like to sell, so if you are in Southern California and want one of these, it might be a good time to act.  She has these listed in the For Sale section of the Palmtalk forum.  She had a residual of some other nice plants too as you will see in the For Sale section.

20211223-BH3I6294.jpg

20211223-BH3I6295.jpg

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Darold Petty
1 hour ago, Tracy said:

 Due to a size constraint on how large a specimen that I could pick up in my vehicle, I got one of the smaller 15 gallon ones.  

 

 

Tracy,  I have transported several 24 inch boxed Howea palms from San Diego to San Francisco in a first generation 2004 Tacoma.

  The permissable rear overhang is 2/3 of the wheelbase dimension, past the last point of support, during daylight hours, with an 18 inch square red flag at the distal end, if the load is two feet wide or less, and two flags if the load is wider than two feet. 

 California Vehicle Code 35410 and 24604    

Just be sure the foliage is well wrapped for freeway travel !  :winkie:

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BS Man about Palms
21 hours ago, Tracy said:

I just picked up this one from Gisela Sparkman after seeing that she has some as she is clearing out some of the remaining plants at Cycads-N-Palms in Fallbrook, the operation her husband George ran.  Due to a size constraint on how large a specimen that I could pick up in my vehicle, I got one of the smaller 15 gallon ones.  She had others she would like to sell, so if you are in Southern California and want one of these, it might be a good time to act.  She has these listed in the For Sale section of the Palmtalk forum.  She had a residual of some other nice plants too as you will see in the For Sale section.

 

 

Funny you should mention that Tracy..... lol  Went there yesterday after getting told by Mark M. and picked these up..  :D 

265178005_322901982849167_95566109538139342_n.thumb.jpg.3a23778b87137d539a5fa6dd6a25e5a2.jpg

 

As to the "other" one.. my gut feeling is it was from there too... from I person I had just met,  but sold to me versus telling me where the source was a couple weeks back.. Oh well :indifferent:

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DoomsDave

Here’s my big julietae.

 

4B78A83C-2DA9-4A57-AC25-25DB00AD8CE8.thumb.jpeg.647b3bbdb386e65c3aa7902fe990b3d7.jpeg

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Matt in SD

Not sure if I can clear anything up, but I have a few of the palms mentioned in this thread.  First up is a palm I bought as Ravenea albicans from a (maybe former) Palmtalker Jeff Rood.  I had grown some of these same palms from seed I aquired as R albicans as well, but I think my seedlings all died so this is the plant I got from Jeff.  It was clear very quickly that they were not albicans, some thought they were louvellii.  I think it's R julietae.  The most distinctive feature of this palm is how short the leaflets are relative to the length of the frond (leaves are 10-12 feet long on this plant right now).  So the aspect ratio (width vs. length) is really low compared to any other palm I've seen.  Also the leaflet length tapers down in an unusual fashion making hte leaf look sort of like an arrow, and the terminal leaflets get really really short, just a few inches long on a 12 foot leaf.  These are very distinctive to me.

IMG_20211225_074659118.thumb.jpg.db8a3d856a44f2bcd2613e7d5f0e71a1.jpg

 

IMG_20211225_074533650.thumb.jpg.7d19f44a117150727d4f74734a2fb140.jpg

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Matt in SD

Next up is an R louvellii I got from Jungle Music a LONG time ago...probably 15-17 years ago as a small seedling.  This is clearly different from the previous palm, with darker tomentum on the leaves and a much more "normal" shape to the leaf.  Also, not as upright.  And i'm guessing someone's going to ask what that palm in the background is with the impossibly white crown - Moratia (now Cyphokentia) cerifera, bonus pic added (no photoshopping required)

IMG_20211225_074500629.thumb.jpg.1017cd7a9078898c52ca38dd092b2275.jpgIMG_20211225_074516663.thumb.jpg.09944fca8251f710c40ddedb561d99f0.jpgIMG_20211225_074707302.thumb.jpg.e060b8e3a4dc3d1c0148dee86a325e57.jpgIMG_20211225_074745569.thumb.jpg.b92f0feadf0aebe43527ca2eddb2beb9.jpg

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Matt in SD

Last is a palm I got from Kevin Weaver as R julietae.  When I got this, I hadn't realized that my 'albicans' was probably julietae, but a few years after planting they seemed to be the same palm.  This one has been in full sun whereas the other is more shaded.  It's also a few years behind in growth.  So the general habit looks a bit different, but at least a couple years ago the two palms seemed clearly to be the same.  Looking today I was sort of questioning whether they really are the same palm, but I think it's just a difference in stage now tha makes them look sort of different. They do have the same distinctive leaf shapeIMG_20211225_074615828.thumb.jpg.f046d505af4524cb15e3f8f5d5447f65.jpgIMG_20211225_074637215.thumb.jpg.d1dcd7bd435f85cbd25ca6bb88af89cf.jpg

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ellidro

Hi Matt! It's been a while. Do you still have that Ravenea monompana from me? if so do you have any pics and what do you think it really is?

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Matt in SD

Hi Nick,

Yeah, long time.  That Monomapana was doing great at my old house, but slowly declined after I dug and moved it over to the new place.  Bummer, that's a super cool palm.  I think it looked similar to the louvellii, but grew way faster.  

I forgot to mention in prevoius posts - 

Dave, your julietae looks awesome

Meg, I agree that the leaf is very similar to R xerophila other than color.  R xerophila also has the narrow leaf aspect.

Matt

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WayToGoPalms

I have 9 of the 15 gallon Sparkman plants in Yorba Linda. 00V0V_5xUtYa47priz_0t20CI_1200x900.jpg

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Tracy
46 minutes ago, WayToGoPalms said:

I have 9 of the 15 gallon Sparkman plants in Yorba Linda.

Welcome to PalmTalk WayToGoPalms.  Have you planted them yet, and how did they do?  I planted the last one I got shortly after bringing it home in a full sun position.  The older leaves showed some immediate signs of damage, but it was pushing out a new leaf which came out pretty clean.  It's pushing a new spear now. 

I don't recall having any transplant damage on my now older one, but it went in with partial shade and has grown up into more sun over the last few years.  The photo above that you posted was from the Sparkman nursery, as I recognize that DG hillside it is set against.  It would be nice to see photos of what you have done with yours.

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DoomsDave
On 12/17/2021 at 8:46 AM, BS Man about Palms said:

 

Meg, I think the one pictured is Ravenea krociana as some noted, and like Len said, also "giant" looks like it. (Since POM refers to them as enormous Ravenea, description fits.) I could always pick them out as they seemed to have brown "freckles" on the petiole, as yours has. Although I will say I usually see them more prominent. 

Happy to say I was finally able to locate a replacement for my large 15 gal juliettae stolon from my front driveway over a year ago. :)  

Hmm. Bet the thief thought it was a cycad.

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realarch

Somehow missed this thread, such beautiful palms with such a distinctive habit. Thanks for all the photos.

Bill Austin has some nice specimens in his garden, and quite large from what I remember. Maybe he’ll add to this thread

Tim

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Hilo Jason
14 hours ago, realarch said:

Somehow missed this thread, such beautiful palms with such a distinctive habit. Thanks for all the photos.

Bill Austin has some nice specimens in his garden, and quite large from what I remember. Maybe he’ll add to this thread

Tim

Tim - I think you could find a place in your garden to squeeze one of these in! 

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realarch

Thanks Jason, you’re developing quite a sense of humor as you get older. 

Tim

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akamu

Thought  I would add a couple pics and get some feedback on  others  perspective First and second pick is what I have been growing as Ravenea Juliette 3rd and 4th pick  are what I have been growing as Ravenea Sambariensis.?  5th pick of  R. Glauca.   And last pic  a baby R xeroohila that needs to get into the ground 

20220429_155849.jpg

20220429_155858.jpg

20220429_155937.jpg

20220429_155948.jpg

20220429_160036.jpg

20220429_161517.jpg

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Tracy
1 hour ago, akamu said:

Thought  I would add a couple pics and get some feedback on  others  perspective First and second pick is what I have been growing as Ravenea Juliette 3rd and 4th pick  are what I have been growing as Ravenea Sambariensis.?  5th pick of  R. Glauca.   And last pic  a baby R xeroohila that needs to get into the ground 

20220429_155849.jpg

20220429_155858.jpg

20220429_155937.jpg

20220429_155948.jpg

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20220429_161517.jpg

Nice selection of Ravenea palms Adam.  Your R sambiranensis looks a lot like the one I had and killed.  Too much wind exposure for a tall specimen before it was fully rooted doomed mine to a premature death.  Yours looks great though.  The first one looks like the same thing I'm growing as Ravenea julietiae, both my older one and the more recent one this last winter from Gisela Sparkman.  It's a great plant that I like more and more as I watch it grow.

Get tha xerophila in a nice sunny well drained spot.  It's pretty amazing what the tap root looks like on even a small specimen.  It is very reminiscent of the tap root of a cycad in proportions.  I'm sure that based on what we are seeing above the soil line in your photo, that the root is already pushing on the bottom of your container.  Unfortunately my best spot for one was out in front, where skunks periodically come into the yard to dig for grubs.  These are just so slow that any little setback can be fatal.  If you ever get digging creatures, consider putting a cage around it in the ground like Bill and Matty often do.

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akamu

Thanks Tracy I have really grown to appreciate this genus. This topic has  inspired me to get the R. Xeroohila in the ground with their upright form these don't take up to much space in the garden. I do cage certain palms due to the occasional gopher attack living on a canyon has some drawbacks. Our cat has been doing an excellent job protecting the garden I came home from church last Sunday and she had a live gopher in the livingroom and the Bulldogs looked  perplexed.  

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realarch

That xerophila is an unusual looking palm, in fact it doesn’t even look like one. I don’t even recall seeing a mature one either. 

Tim

 

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