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Jesse PNW

Unhappy Jubaea x butia

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Jesse PNW

I'm guessing the brown tips are caused by overwatering? 

This is kept in the grow box, under grow lights.  Butia x jubaea isn't doing this. 

20211209_173103.jpg

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Tom in Tucson

When I bought this hybrid from Patric(k) 6 years ago it looked exactly like yours. It still has similar leaves. I'm hoping it will eventually grow out of this condition. It's my slowest growing hybrid, and it's been in the ground near other hybrids which don't have this problem. I hope yours recovers. Let us know how it's doing in the next few years.

Hi 74˚, Lo 43˚

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Jesse PNW

Interesting.  Thanks for the input.  Any pics of yours? 

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zimm

If the center growth looks good I would not worry.  Otherwise if the center growth is similar my first thought with anything Jubaea involved is likely overwatering.

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Trustandi

JxB is very finicky when it's young.  Mine didn't recover. Hopefully yours will recover. 

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Tom in Tucson
19 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Interesting.  Thanks for the input.  Any pics of yours? 

I posted a picture here when I first got it. I don't feel like finding it ATM, but believe me it was nearly identical. I remember a reply to that post said it was under watered. I think it was @Josh-O. That was not the problem.

Hi 74˚, Lo 43˚

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VA Jeff

I boght 2 jubaea x yatay.  One defiintitely died a year ago.  I think  the other one might be dead by now too.   several (BxJ) x Syagrus are much tougher so far.  Not sure that says much though.

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Tom in Tucson

I remembered after posting my 2nd reply last night that I do have a picture of my hybrid. Look here

Hi 63˚, Lo 49˚ - morning cold rain

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UK_Palms
19 hours ago, zimm said:

If the center growth looks good I would not worry.  Otherwise if the center growth is similar my first thought with anything Jubaea involved is likely overwatering.

It almost certainly isn't overwatering. There are some huge Jubaea's growing in some pretty wet parts of England and they are totally fine. They will handle wet soil okay, although constant heat combined with high humidity and high rainfall seems to be a big problem and promotes fungus on the trunk and fronds. They seem to handle cool/wet far better than they handle hot/wet conditions. Tropical climates, or humid continental climates seem to be a big 'no' for Jubaea. Excessive rainfall and humidity combined with heat is what causes most problems. 

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RJ
23 hours ago, Trustandi said:

JxB is very finicky when it's young.  Mine didn't recover. Hopefully yours will recover. 

Precisely correct. I have given up on small ones. :wacko:

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
10 hours ago, RJ said:

Precisely correct. I have given up on small ones. :wacko:

Anything with jubaea in it is worth getting a larger size to start. I killed both my JxBY and (bxj)x S from Patric. Now a got a pure Jubaea from @Phil and its had zero issues. 

T J 

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Jesse PNW

As much as I'd love to simply get a larger specimen, that's not an option.  That I know of.  Hybrids are rare and hard to come by, so this is all I've got.  

Pulled it out of the grow box, now it's in the bay window under some grow lights.  Lower temperature but also lower humidity so hopefully it will do better here.  Even if it grows slower.  Then I'm guessing it should be OK outside this summer when our humidity drops to near-desert levels. 

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Hutch

Hey Jessie ...if you can make to my property I will give you a really nice sized Jubeae for free...contact me if interested...

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Hutch

I've been trying to get rid of a bunch of plants as I will explain if you come down..!

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ZPalms
On 12/9/2021 at 8:34 PM, Jesse PNW said:

I'm guessing the brown tips are caused by overwatering? 

This is kept in the grow box, under grow lights.  Butia x jubaea isn't doing this. 

20211209_173103.jpg

Where did you get this pot?

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Jesse PNW

That's how it came from Patric/Patrick/Patrix.   I also would like to find some liners like this.  I'm thinking these are probably liners for trees/forestry/arbor-whatever-the-adjective-is.  

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MarkbVet

Hi Jesse!  I'm also in the Pacific NW,  curious to see how your hybrids do.  Also I'd love to find a Butia X Jubaea hybrid, using either B. capitata/odorata, or preferably a Butia eriospatha, as they come from even cooler/wetter habitats than B. capitata... that increased wet tolerance may help the hybrid adapt to our climate.  Also B. eriospatha purportedly grows faster than B. capitata,  Having those traits might help counteract the agonizingly slow growth of the wine palms.  

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MarkbVet

Hi Hutch, if Jesse isn't able to come to you, I'd be willing to help you out if  you need to find homes for some palm trees.  I'm in Beaverton, Oregon, very close to you.   Let me know if nothing else works out for you!   :-)

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MarkbVet

UK Palms,  I'm curious-- can you give me an idea of how much rain the 'pretty wet areas in England' are getting? Especially in winter/cold weather?  I'd heard that Jubaeas don't even like being watered from above (i.e. sprinklers), much less getting frequent/constant rain on them during cool weather.  What I'm hearing from you is encouraging...  I'm in an area with Zone 8 temperatures and 40 inches of rain per year, a large portion of that in winter.  However, I'll be retiring to So. Oregon in a few years, so most of my current palms are staying in pots until I move.  Southern Oregon is warmer/drier, Mediterranean climate, and only ~20 inches of rain a year, still zone 8 but much more palm-friendly for many species!  Curious what you think of pure Jubaea in these situations.  Anyone else, love to hear from you too!

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Jesse PNW
8 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

Hi Jesse!  I'm also in the Pacific NW,  curious to see how your hybrids do.  Also I'd love to find a Butia X Jubaea hybrid, using either B. capitata/odorata, or preferably a Butia eriospatha, as they come from even cooler/wetter habitats than B. capitata... that increased wet tolerance may help the hybrid adapt to our climate.  Also B. eriospatha purportedly grows faster than B. capitata,  Having those traits might help counteract the agonizingly slow growth of the wine palms.  

I've got one eriospatha, picked it up from Raintree this past summer.  It's still pretty small but is a great looking palm.  Looks decidedly different from odorata.  Plan on picking up some more, next year.  

Some day I'd love to make my own crosses.  I've got a few Lytocaryum hoehnei, they're small, 4" pots.  But I believe that Pal Meir got his to flower, growing them in pots.   And I think they can flower at a pretty young age.  So hopefully someday I can tinker with B eriospatha x L hoehnei...  or L insigne.  Maybe just a pipe dream but it gives me something to dream about.  

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Scott W
3 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Some day I'd love to make my own crosses.  I've got a few Lytocaryum hoehnei, they're small, 4" pots.  But I believe that Pal Meir got his to flower, growing them in pots.   And I think they can flower at a pretty young age.  So hopefully someday I can tinker with B eriospatha x L hoehnei...  or L insigne.  Maybe just a pipe dream but it gives me something to dream about.  

I bought a couple palms from Patrick and repotted those immediately, including a Jubaea x Butia purpuracens.  Mine are also outside so I've seen no issues with it.

Lytocaryum hoehnei are said to flower with five or six years.  Did you get you four inch pots from Floribunda?  I bought some that size from Jeff a few months back and immediately potted them up to 1 gallons.  Also bought some mature ones from MB Palms in Orlando.

Here's one of my mature hoehnei that had it's spathe open...no pollen to be had and all the male flowers dropped off

PXL_20211209_201945880.thumb.jpg.0443e6d9be554b8e883fa22bf9218dfc.jpg

And here's one of the hoehnei from Floribunda now...

PXL_20211207_005429309.thumb.jpg.ab0b3e32a20d035747f0f7a6318a99dc.jpg

And what they looked like back in July...

PXL_20210715_211557348.thumb.jpg.efdd0b75368d810387740a3b3087aa2a.jpg

PXL_20211207_005337252.jpg

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Chester B
14 hours ago, Hutch said:

I've been trying to get rid of a bunch of plants as I will explain if you come down..!

I can always help you out with that too, I'm reworking my front yard and I'm not that far from you B) 

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MarkbVet
5 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

I've got one eriospatha, picked it up from Raintree this past summer.  It's still pretty small but is a great looking palm.  Looks decidedly different from odorata.  Plan on picking up some more, next year.  

Some day I'd love to make my own crosses.  I've got a few Lytocaryum hoehnei, they're small, 4" pots.  But I believe that Pal Meir got his to flower, growing them in pots.   And I think they can flower at a pretty young age.  So hopefully someday I can tinker with B eriospatha x L hoehnei...  or L insigne.  Maybe just a pipe dream but it gives me something to dream about.  

Well, that's a more realistic dream than making your own Butia x Jubaea crosses!  (maybe in your grandkids' lifetimes lol).  Good luck with your experiments!   Yes Raintree has the eriospathas and a number of other goodies currently; picked up 6 palm species there this past weekend!  (rubbing hands in evil glee).  

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Jesse PNW

Yeah going to Raintree is dangerous.  I want to make it an annual thing but I need to set aside a good chunk of money.  I think I spent over $600 my first time there.  

Scott yes my Lyto's came from Jeff.  I emailed him a query and he called me the next day and talked palms with me for 20 minutes.  He sounded reluctant to ship his palms to Washington state until he had talked to me for a bit and could tell that I somewhat know what I'm doing, and wasn't going to plant his palms as annuals.  Haha. 

If you wanted to make a few bucks, I'd be willing to pay for some of the more hard-to-come-by palms next time you go to a palm shop in Florida.  I tried to find a palm nursery when I was in Orlando on vacation but there wasn't anything I could find (retail) down near Kissimmee. I called a wholesaler and he sounded pissed off that I had the audacity to call him looking for a specific palm.  I think it was an Arenga or Allagoptera or something like that. 

Edited by Jesse PNW

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MarkbVet
10 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

I've got one eriospatha, picked it up from Raintree this past summer.  It's still pretty small but is a great looking palm.  Looks decidedly different from odorata.  Plan on picking up some more, next year.  

Some day I'd love to make my own crosses.  I've got a few Lytocaryum hoehnei, they're small, 4" pots.  But I believe that Pal Meir got his to flower, growing them in pots.   And I think they can flower at a pretty young age.  So hopefully someday I can tinker with B eriospatha x L hoehnei...  or L insigne.  Maybe just a pipe dream but it gives me something to dream about.  

How does your eriospatha differ from odorata?   Raintree says they can't tell the diff, except via fruiting structures (wooly).  They have a good sized eriospatha in ground near their greenhouses, and I would have guessed it was an odorata.   Is yours less blue than odorata?  I'd love to find one that is deep green so that it actually looks like a different species.  

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Chester B
1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

How does your eriospatha differ from odorata?   Raintree says they can't tell the diff, except via fruiting structures (wooly).  They have a good sized eriospatha in ground near their greenhouses, and I would have guessed it was an odorata.   Is yours less blue than odorata?  I'd love to find one that is deep green so that it actually looks like a different species.  

I have both palms and I can tell no difference. The Raintree palms were grown from seed and we all know how unreliable seed sources can be at times. Never mind the fact that a lot of the Butias we buy are mutts. My odorata does flower and set seed so when the eriospatha does we will know definitely if the seed was good. I think I’m about 2-3years from that happening based on its size. 
 

photos of my odorata and eriospatha at roughly true same size plus another large Butia from a local palm nursery. 

CFC0F641-AF75-40CC-BBE6-229DAE53DE38.jpeg

DE0D034B-F21C-4B0C-8091-EDA8A12351A4.png

1E13683D-ECD1-48F5-ADC3-FBE89305AFED.jpeg

Edited by Chester B
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Chester B

I forgot to mention that when I bought my original odorata he had what he called the “stiff” type and a “floppy” type. That third picture was the floppy type, the segments of the fronds were soft like ribbons and moved freely with the wind. What he brought me were the stiff types as can be seen in my first photo. 
 

That big floppy one died in a bad winter whereas my stiff ones sailed through it. 

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Jesse PNW

My odoratas - that's what I believe them to be, are stiffer, more glaucous., with a definite "V" shape to the leaflets.  The eriospatha is greener, more pendulous, and the leaflets are finer and flatter.  Maybe it will change over time, I don't know.  I'll try to get some pics tomorrow if the weather isn't too bad.  

I was just down at Hutch's place, he's got a few big, gorgeous Butias.  One is an eriospatha and one is... I think paraguayensis?  His eriospatha looks more like my odoratas.  The paraguayensis though has a different form.  I didn't notice it from a distance, and maybe it's growing in the shade or something, but it's more stretched-out and reaching and the overall shape of the petioles coming out of the trunk is just different from what I'm used to seeing.  

I also think it's interesting to see the difference in overall form between the Butias grown down in Florida versus up here.  I like the ones up here better, they're just more outstretched and they seem more grandiose.  PNW Butias remind me of Syagrus, in the way that their new fronds reach so far up and out.  Butias down in Orlando, every time I go there, look strange to me.  More dense/compact.  It's like the heat stifles them, or stunts them, or something.  

I think ChesterB is right, there's probably a lot of mutt palms, not just Butia but all kinds of palms.  I know it happens with Sabals, Phoenix, etc.  I've read in other threads that most of the Butias in the SE are not actually odoratas, can't remember who said that, or what they really are.  Butia species are kinda funky and the "experts" probably don't even agree on what's what.  Maybe they're all the same species just with minor differences.  

Anyway back to my trip to Hutch's...  Just wow!  I need to go back down there during the daylight, it was dark when I got down there.  We spent an hour walking around his property (with a flashlight) talking palms.  He's got some massive, gorgeous specimens that are I believe ~10 years old but much bigger than I would have expected.   Giant Sabal minors, huge (for this area) Chamaerops (two different forms!), a few different species of Trachy's.  But even with Trachycarpus you can see qualitative differences between some of them, like different strains have their own unique traits.  Most of his Trachys have big fat trunks - so many in this area have skinny, puny little trunks.  He thinks it's due to being substantially irrigated.  And they're all super healthy and lush looking.  

Hutch I owe you BIG time!  It was awesome getting to meet you and your family.  My daughter has big plans for us all to hang out again!  

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MarkbVet

Thanks everyone for your insights.   I agree that genetic variation (and cross pollination) has led to a variety of phenotypes and variations seen in cultivated palms, and these Butias are likely no exceptions.  Combined with the overall similarities between a number of Butia species, and we're left scratching our heads figuring out what separates them (or not).  That 'floppy type' Butia odorata would be suspect for having hybrid genetic material from another palm species, which may also have made it less cold hardy.   Just my guess...

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MarkbVet
12 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

Yeah going to Raintree is dangerous.  I want to make it an annual thing but I need to set aside a good chunk of money.  I think I spent over $600 my first time there.  

Scott yes my Lyto's came from Jeff.  I emailed him a query and he called me the next day and talked palms with me for 20 minutes.  He sounded reluctant to ship his palms to Washington state until he had talked to me for a bit and could tell that I somewhat know what I'm doing, and wasn't going to plant his palms as annuals.  Haha. 

If you wanted to make a few bucks, I'd be willing to pay for some of the more hard-to-come-by palms next time you go to a palm shop in Florida.  I tried to find a palm nursery when I was in Orlando on vacation but there wasn't anything I could find (retail) down near Kissimmee. I called a wholesaler and he sounded pissed off that I had the audacity to call him looking for a specific palm.  I think it was an Arenga or Allagoptera or something like that. 

Raintree isn't the only one either; it's great having multiple nurseries featuring hardy palms in Oregon;  I've found up to 5 so far.  DesertScape in Bend,  OregonPalms,  Raintree and Cistus in the Willamette Valley, and Hooked on Palms in the Medford area/Rogue Valley.   

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Scott W
14 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

If you wanted to make a few bucks, I'd be willing to pay for some of the more hard-to-come-by palms next time you go to a palm shop in Florida. 

Sure.  Message what you are looking for and I'll see what I can do.

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Chester B
8 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

I've read in other threads that most of the Butias in the SE are not actually odoratas, can't remember who said that, or what they really are. 

Consensus is that they are or have a lot of B. catariensis in them.  All the Butias I saw in Florida were thin trunked and had much smaller crowns.  The ones in California seem to be the big robust type like we have up here in the PNW.

Looking at my pictures on the big screen I have a couple comments.  It does appear the first pic B.odorata at a smaller size had less leaflets and thicker ones compared to the second pic of  B.eriospatha.  The second pic makes the palm seem more blue/white than it does in person.  My big Odorata and the eriospatha in person look identical to me, the eriospatha is a "Mini-me" version of the odorata.

That third pic I posted of the floppy Butia was taken at Palmscape.  This was before the dreaded January storm of 2017, and they are located out in Boring which is that much colder and more exposed than the Portland area.  It wasn't the only palm to perish, I know they lost a huge waggie too that winter. 

@MarkbVet I guess you are unfamiliar with Palmscape out in Boring?  It was the first place I started buying palms from.  Palmscape deals less with the public and more with commercial customers, but you can stop by and buy off the lot.  If you need a bunch of big palms and aren't afraid to drop the $$ this is the place.  He has multiple greenhouses and fields of huge palms aside from the place you can visit.  He also sends a lot of palms down to California to grow them up faster.  Because their focus is on commercial clients they really only carry the most hardy palms but plenty of them.  T.fortunei, T wagnerianus, C humilis,  J chilensis, B odorata, C revoluta and Y rostrata.  Occasionally you will see something different.

Raintree definitely has the widest selection of species.  Cistus is great but palms are not their focus, so don't go there expecting to find something good.  Every once in a while you'll stumble upon something different for our area.  Last time I was there they had decent sized Sabal "Birmingham" which I've never seen for sale before so of course I had to get one, even though I really wanted three.

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Merlyn
On 12/12/2021 at 11:10 PM, ZPalms said:

Where did you get this pot?

That looks like a Steuwe 3x3x8" tall pot.  I use the 3x3x8 and 4x4x9 pots from here: https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/containers-trays/plant-pots/treepots

I used to use the 4x4x14 and some of the 6x6x16 pots too, but the taller ones tend to fall over easily.  They do fit fine in milk crates though, or the trays that they sell separately.

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knikfar
On 12/10/2021 at 12:57 AM, VA Jeff said:

I boght 2 jubaea x yatay.  One defiintitely died a year ago.  I think  the other one might be dead by now too.   several (BxJ) x Syagrus are much tougher so far.  Not sure that says much though.

Where did you purchase yours from? I'm in Raleigh NC, not terribly far away. 

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MarkbVet
3 hours ago, Chester B said:

Consensus is that they are or have a lot of B. catariensis in them.  All the Butias I saw in Florida were thin trunked and had much smaller crowns.  The ones in California seem to be the big robust type like we have up here in the PNW.

Looking at my pictures on the big screen I have a couple comments.  It does appear the first pic B.odorata at a smaller size had less leaflets and thicker ones compared to the second pic of  B.eriospatha.  The second pic makes the palm seem more blue/white than it does in person.  My big Odorata and the eriospatha in person look identical to me, the eriospatha is a "Mini-me" version of the odorata.

That third pic I posted of the floppy Butia was taken at Palmscape.  This was before the dreaded January storm of 2017, and they are located out in Boring which is that much colder and more exposed than the Portland area.  It wasn't the only palm to perish, I know they lost a huge waggie too that winter. 

@MarkbVet I guess you are unfamiliar with Palmscape out in Boring?  It was the first place I started buying palms from.  Palmscape deals less with the public and more with commercial customers, but you can stop by and buy off the lot.  If you need a bunch of big palms and aren't afraid to drop the $$ this is the place.  He has multiple greenhouses and fields of huge palms aside from the place you can visit.  He also sends a lot of palms down to California to grow them up faster.  Because their focus is on commercial clients they really only carry the most hardy palms but plenty of them.  T.fortunei, T wagnerianus, C humilis,  J chilensis, B odorata, C revoluta and Y rostrata.  Occasionally you will see something different.

Raintree definitely has the widest selection of species.  Cistus is great but palms are not their focus, so don't go there expecting to find something good.  Every once in a while you'll stumble upon something different for our area.  Last time I was there they had decent sized Sabal "Birmingham" which I've never seen for sale before so of course I had to get one, even though I really wanted three.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that nursery.   Yes, Birmingham is one I intend to get from Cistus, along with Sabal X "brazoriensis" from Plant Delights.    Funny how Yucca rostrata has taken off since Hogan promoted the 'sapphire skies' variant, but there are so many other winter hardy yuccas, some trunking and much larger (and faster growing) than rostrata.  I've got a Y. schottii in my yard that's almost as tall as my twenty+ foot windmill palm, and the yucca has a fatter trunk.  And I really wish that Cycas taitungensis would become more widely available, as it's superior to Cycas revoluta for cool climates.   Rock solid hardy in zone 8 without protection, even down to single digit temperatures when established, and grows 3 times as fast as C. revoluta, putting out up to 6 sets of leaves yearly!   Happy growing & wishing you a happy holiday season!

 

 

 

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MarkbVet
On 12/11/2021 at 7:59 AM, Jesse PNW said:

As much as I'd love to simply get a larger specimen, that's not an option.  That I know of.  Hybrids are rare and hard to come by, so this is all I've got.  

Pulled it out of the grow box, now it's in the bay window under some grow lights.  Lower temperature but also lower humidity so hopefully it will do better here.  Even if it grows slower.  Then I'm guessing it should be OK outside this summer when our humidity drops to near-desert levels. 

Palmscape in Boring Oregon lists the Butia-Jubaea hybrid as something they carry, and they tend to have larger plants.   Cost may be an issue but...  ?

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Chester B
1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

Palmscape in Boring Oregon lists the Butia-Jubaea hybrid as something they carry, and they tend to have larger plants.   Cost may be an issue but...  ?

Their website hasn't been updated as long as I can remember.  I haven't been there this year, before that they had no hybrids for sale I asked him.  There was one big one in a pot that looks like a Butia,  but I think he was suspect of it being an actual hybrid.  

The one different palm he does get in, or at least he used to were pretty big needle palms.  About 5' overall height.  That's a tough one to find around here that big.  

Price on the palms is decent, definitely no gauging.

1 hour ago, MarkbVet said:

I've got a Y. schottii in my yard that's almost as tall as my twenty+ foot windmill palm, and the yucca has a fatter trunk. 

Let's see a picture!

Another great cycad for us is Cycas panzhihuaensis if you can find one.  Very rugged, but mine is pretty slow growing.

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Jesse PNW

That's what I was going to say!  

C panzhihuaensis is the one i've been looking for.  I need to try a revoluta or two.  I've just heard that they're slow-growing and door rather poorly up here as they like heat. 

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ZPalms
5 hours ago, Merlyn said:

That looks like a Steuwe 3x3x8" tall pot.  I use the 3x3x8 and 4x4x9 pots from here: https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/containers-trays/plant-pots/treepots

I used to use the 4x4x14 and some of the 6x6x16 pots too, but the taller ones tend to fall over easily.  They do fit fine in milk crates though, or the trays that they sell separately.

Awesome thanks! Bookmarking it!!!

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Chester B
1 hour ago, Jesse PNW said:

C panzhihuaensis is the one i've been looking for.  I need to try a revoluta or two

I'm going to buy a couple big box specials on the revoluta this spring.  For the other one I had bought from our friends at Raintree but they're not cheap.

Edited by Chester B

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