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tvold

Why am i considered 10a?

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tvold

So I live in Golden Gate, which is basically a subsidiary of Naples and its a few miles east of downtown.

On maps it is listed as a 10a hardiness zone, yet the coldest it gets here in winter is the lower 40s with a Cold Front.

Winters here are windy however, which brings with it wind chill.

Does this count towards the plant hardiness zone, or not?

If not, I've NEVER seen it in the 30s here (besides like 2010) without factoring in wind chill.

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GottmitAlex

From wiki:

 

Temperature scale used to define USDA hardiness zones. These are annual extreme minima (an area is assigned to a zone by taking the lowest temperature recorded there in a given year). As shown, the USDA uses a GIS dataset averaged over 1976 to 2005 for its United States maps.

 

800px-USDAHardiness_2012-2015_Scale.jpg

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Jimbean
3 hours ago, tvold said:

So I live in Golden Gate, which is basically a subsidiary of Naples and its a few miles east of downtown.

On maps it is listed as a 10a hardiness zone, yet the coldest it gets here in winter is the lower 40s with a Cold Front.

Winters here are windy however, which brings with it wind chill.

Does this count towards the plant hardiness zone, or not?

If not, I've NEVER seen it in the 30s here (besides like 2010) without factoring in wind chill.

Wind chill has no bearing on hardiness zone. 

 

Naples does get down to the 30's almost every year.  Last January Fort Myers recorded 36F, which is not that far from you. 

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Xerarch

Though I've never been there, I remember the community of Golden Gate has been discussed specifically on this forum in the past.  From what I recall of the discussion, it really gets measurably colder than the direct coast which is not too far away.  Also if I remember correctly from the discussion, someone was noticing damage to their coconuts in that community when they looked good elsewhere. so it does get colder than you might think. 

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GottmitAlex

Echoing the words of a famous palmtalker: " Remember, your refrigerator is a 10a zone"

 

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kinzyjr

The closest NOAA station to Golden Gate is GHCND:USC00086078.  The full list of Annual Lows at this location is attached in Excel format. 

Summary:

30-Year-AAL (1991-2020) = 35.17(10b)     50-Year-AAL (1971-2020) = 33.78(10a)     75-Year-AAL (1946-2020) = 34.31(10a)     All-Year-AAL (1942-2020) = 34.34(10a)    

Record Low = 26

202112011840_Naples_GoldenGate.xlsx

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aabell

All depends on how far from the water you are. You may very well technically 10B at your location depending on how you look at the data, as Kinzyjr provides. It certainly goes below 40 with regularity there though. 

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Jim in Los Altos

Wind chill pertains to how a temperature “feels” on human skin based on wind speed. It has no bearing on actual temperature. It can be 50°F but “ feel” like 40°F to someone standing outside because of the wind’s effect on the skin. 

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MOlivera

I lived in Gloden Gate in the 80’s and 90’s. I remember the 89 freeze. In made it to the upper 20’s there. We lived off Golden Gate pkwy. If your property backs up to a canal you will stay warmer. I believe the winters have been much milder for the last 10-15 years. They don’t get as many freezes as they used to when I lived there. I remember we would get frost in Golden gate and west of US 41 there would be no frost and considerably warmer. I don’t ever remember seeing any frost west of 41. Coconut palms used to not grow in the Golden gate estates and now they have them growing all the way out to Everglades Blvd. My cousins are currently able to grow tropical fruit varieties there in Golden gate that would die when I tried them when I lived there in the 80’s and 90’s. Definitely not as cold as it used to be

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tvold
On 12/1/2021 at 3:53 PM, Jimbean said:

Wind chill has no bearing on hardiness zone. 

 

Naples does get down to the 30's almost every year.  Last January Fort Myers recorded 36F, which is not that far from you. 

Okay it isnt that often, coldest it gets is lower 40s, its very uncommon for it to get to the 30s.

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tvold
On 12/3/2021 at 6:39 PM, MOlivera said:

I lived in Gloden Gate in the 80’s and 90’s. I remember the 89 freeze. In made it to the upper 20’s there. We lived off Golden Gate pkwy. If your property backs up to a canal you will stay warmer. I believe the winters have been much milder for the last 10-15 years. They don’t get as many freezes as they used to when I lived there. I remember we would get frost in Golden gate and west of US 41 there would be no frost and considerably warmer. I don’t ever remember seeing any frost west of 41. Coconut palms used to not grow in the Golden gate estates and now they have them growing all the way out to Everglades Blvd. My cousins are currently able to grow tropical fruit varieties there in Golden gate that would die when I tried them when I lived there in the 80’s and 90’s. Definitely not as cold as it used to be

Maybe the area will go up to 10b or 11a in the future?

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tvold
On 12/2/2021 at 12:40 PM, aabell said:

All depends on how far from the water you are. You may very well technically 10B at your location depending on how you look at the data, as Kinzyjr provides. It certainly goes below 40 with regularity there though. 

I really dont see it ever, i can recall at least 1 time is has gone there but obviously i could have missed the lows where it was in the 30s.

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tvold
On 12/1/2021 at 12:26 PM, tvold said:

So I live in Golden Gate, which is basically a subsidiary of Naples and its a few miles east of downtown.

On maps it is listed as a 10a hardiness zone, yet the coldest it gets here in winter is the lower 40s with a Cold Front.

Winters here are windy however, which brings with it wind chill.

Does this count towards the plant hardiness zone, or not?

If not, I've NEVER seen it in the 30s here (besides like 2010) without factoring in wind chill.

We can grow canna lillies just fine where i live in NW golden gate, which are a 10b plant. 

So i dont know.

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Jimbean
9 hours ago, tvold said:

Okay it isnt that often, coldest it gets is lower 40s, its very uncommon for it to get to the 30s.

I guarantee your location averages under 40F annually

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aabell
11 hours ago, tvold said:

We can grow canna lillies just fine where i live in NW golden gate, which are a 10b plant. 

So i dont know.

Cannas are root hardy to zone 8 as far as I know and although the leaves may be frost sensitive, they grow so fast that I don't think it's a good indicator of anything. Do you have coconuts around you? Breadfruit? Lipstick palms? 

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tvold
On 12/1/2021 at 5:48 PM, Xerarch said:

Though I've never been there, I remember the community of Golden Gate has been discussed specifically on this forum in the past.  From what I recall of the discussion, it really gets measurably colder than the direct coast which is not too far away.  Also if I remember correctly from the discussion, someone was noticing damage to their coconuts in that community when they looked good elsewhere. so it does get colder than you might think. 

Yeah in the past there was coco damage but now coconuts are fine even further inland.

The most recent freeze that damaged coconuts was the 2010 big one, but since then not really any coconuts have been damaged.

Our low this morning only got into the lower 70s.

I have a baby coconut growing perfectly and is already pretty big for 4 months!

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tvold
30 minutes ago, aabell said:

Cannas are root hardy to zone 8 as far as I know and although the leaves may be frost sensitive, they grow so fast that I don't think it's a good indicator of anything. Do you have coconuts around you? Breadfruit? Lipstick palms? 

While there are coconuts everywhere, i dont think i have ever seen a breadfruit tree.

But i have seen a few lipstick palms around, although not commonly.

 

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tvold
33 minutes ago, aabell said:

Cannas are root hardy to zone 8 as far as I know and although the leaves may be frost sensitive, they grow so fast that I don't think it's a good indicator of anything. Do you have coconuts around you? Breadfruit? Lipstick palms? 

oh by the way, nice pfp!

I love those Roystoneas!

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tvold
6 minutes ago, tvold said:

no, i forget the actual scientific name for it, but not that one.

 

2 hours ago, Jimbean said:

I'm not sure of the exact species but i think it's a Canna x Generalis.

I can't recall a time when i saw leaf damage on them from winter, but then again i've only had them for about 3 or 4 years.

Edited by tvold

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tvold
On 12/1/2021 at 3:53 PM, Jimbean said:

Wind chill has no bearing on hardiness zone. 

 

Naples does get down to the 30's almost every year.  Last January Fort Myers recorded 36F, which is not that far from you. 

Here it got to the lower 40s when that 36 was recorded, not into the 30s or anything but it still was cold, becuase wind chill made it feel like the 30s.

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chinandega81

I know from just observing low temps from over the past 20 years that Golden Gate certainly gets into the 30s and sees frost almost yearly.  That alone won't kill coconuts, mangos, canna lillies, etc. What I would say is that it used to get even colder in Golden Gate, into the upper 20s, so there has been enough warming to help the tropicals do much better. Before, people used to say that tropicals weren't long-term plantings east of 75. Now, they have been around for 10 years at least, and even longer if any survived 2010. Add to that microclimates or protected spots in a yard and you could have even warmer temps.

Usually the hardiness zones look at a longer stretch of time to determine your zone. It has been relatively cold free compared to the past. It's hard to tell if it's permanent or a blip. I assume we will see cold again, perhaps less severe though, with the help of urbanization and a warming world overall. You might be "zone 11" for many years and then dip to a 9b in a bad winter every 20 years. Florida low temps in winter are highly variable, so averages can be decieving. Just look at morning lows over the years and they will be your guide. Ultimately, it isn't necessarily what zone you are in, it's what you actually grow. I am in zone 10b and there are breadfruits and soursops all over my neighborhood.

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tvold
4 hours ago, chinandega81 said:

I know from just observing low temps from over the past 20 years that Golden Gate certainly gets into the 30s and sees frost almost yearly.  That alone won't kill coconuts, mangos, canna lillies, etc. What I would say is that it used to get even colder in Golden Gate, into the upper 20s, so there has been enough warming to help the tropicals do much better. Before, people used to say that tropicals weren't long-term plantings east of 75. Now, they have been around for 10 years at least, and even longer if any survived 2010. Add to that microclimates or protected spots in a yard and you could have even warmer temps.

Usually the hardiness zones look at a longer stretch of time to determine your zone. It has been relatively cold free compared to the past. It's hard to tell if it's permanent or a blip. I assume we will see cold again, perhaps less severe though, with the help of urbanization and a warming world overall. You might be "zone 11" for many years and then dip to a 9b in a bad winter every 20 years. Florida low temps in winter are highly variable, so averages can be decieving. Just look at morning lows over the years and they will be your guide. Ultimately, it isn't necessarily what zone you are in, it's what you actually grow. I am in zone 10b and there are breadfruits and soursops all over my neighborhood.

Florida winters are really variable, Last night it only got down to 71 i think for the low.

Coldest i've seen here this year was 52 in november, which is really cold for nov.

But december has been pretty warm.

The climate here is weird.

Going off of just this year alone from spring to today, we would be a 12a, but i assume that in january there will be a few hours at like 42.

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aabell
11 minutes ago, tvold said:

Florida winters are really variable, Last night it only got down to 71 i think for the low.

Coldest i've seen here this year was 52 in november, which is really cold for nov.

But december has been pretty warm.

The climate here is weird.

Going off of just this year alone from spring to today, we would be a 12a, but i assume that in january there will be a few hours at like 42.

By the metric of "since spring" New York City is a solid zone 10.

That's why you have to look at multiple decades to determine a zone. And even though the climate is warming, any Texan here would be quick to remind you that cold snaps are still very possible. 

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Jimbean
7 hours ago, tvold said:

Here it got to the lower 40s when that 36 was recorded, not into the 30s or anything but it still was cold, becuase wind chill made it feel like the 30s.

Hopefully I'm not getting trolled.

If you want, you can compare the latest cool events with other locations around the state by these captures:

 

However to really get a better idea, we need to wait for the next cold event.  When that happens we'll compare your location with other locations and we'll see if your location looks like Key Largo, low temperature wise.

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tvold
On 12/2/2021 at 12:40 PM, aabell said:

All depends on how far from the water you are. You may very well technically 10B at your location depending on how you look at the data, as Kinzyjr provides. It certainly goes below 40 with regularity there though. 

I looked at some data and the last time i could find it going below 40 was 2010, but 2018 got to 40.

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Jimbean
18 minutes ago, tvold said:

I looked at some data and the last time i could find it going below 40 was 2010, but 2018 got to 40.

What location are you talking about?  Where are you getting this data?

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tvold
13 minutes ago, Jimbean said:

What location are you talking about?  Where are you getting this data?

Wunderground for the Naples Muni + Another website i found idk what it was called.

But all im saying is that it does not get to 35 every single year here.

That is a Highest end 10a and it never gets that cold!

Sure, it gets chilly but not 30-35!

Thats cold.

And there is no way some part of tampa bay has the same climate as Everglades City.

That is what the USDA hardiness zone map shows.

 

Edited by tvold

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tvold
On 12/12/2021 at 5:23 PM, Jimbean said:

Hopefully I'm not getting trolled.

If you want, you can compare the latest cool events with other locations around the state by these captures:

 

However to really get a better idea, we need to wait for the next cold event.  When that happens we'll compare your location with other locations and we'll see if your location looks like Key Largo, low temperature wise.

My temps are a little lower for the lows in the high 60s like 66-69 Temps for absolute lows.

But so is key largo for Sun and Mon which is future for me.

I'll make sure to post if it gets below 40, which i doubt it will this year.

Maybe some other year but there is now way it gets below 35 every year.

I would like to mention that it used to be way colder in golden gate but recently the climate became very tropical.

I could see maybe in 1990 it being 10a here but now we HAVE to be at least 10b.

Edited by tvold

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Xenon

NWS station right next to Golden Gate Country Club

Screenshot_20211218-104548.thumb.png.f7a160d8cc09901ce4ad28e4b4707b0f.png

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aabell
1 hour ago, tvold said:

I looked at some data and the last time I could find it going below 40 was 2010, but 2018 got to 40.

January 18, 2018 WU screenshots in this thread, all of golden gate (north or east of 75) is 36 or below.

Capture18.png

 

Do you live by the airport or do you live in Golden gate? Naples is considerably warmer, being just a few extra miles inland can make a big difference as this event shows. I would consider Naples proper probably 10b, and Golden Gate 10a. Again you have to consider a longer timeframe than just the past few years. 

Edited by aabell
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chinandega81

I think it's important to mention that our perspective is different from reality. It might be 40 at 5 feet above the surface of the ground, but where that baby coconut is sprouting it could be in the middle 30s. Not a lot of mixing on cool, still winter mornings and nights. Also, your yard could very well be it's own microclimate, and that's great. But that isn't representative of all of Golden Gate. And it is true that it has been very mild these past few years in South Florida. Is it bc of global warming? increased urbanization? Just random stagnant weather patterns? A combination of all of that? Who knows. But the bottom line in, the winter in Florida is variable and even if our averages bump up somewhat dramatically, we will still be exposed to the extreme outlier cold fronts.

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Jimbean
On 12/1/2021 at 9:26 AM, tvold said:

So I live in Golden Gate, which is basically a subsidiary of Naples and its a few miles east of downtown.

On maps it is listed as a 10a hardiness zone, yet the coldest it gets here in winter is the lower 40s with a Cold Front.

Winters here are windy however, which brings with it wind chill.

Does this count towards the plant hardiness zone, or not?

If not, I've NEVER seen it in the 30s here (besides like 2010) without factoring in wind chill.

Taken at 1:20 AM buddy. 

Untitled.png

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Jimbean

The closet station I could find in the vicinity of Golden Gate

Close to Golden Gate.png

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ruskinPalms

There was a station west of Everglades blvd this morning in golden gate that was at 32F. Jim, I’m pretty sure you caught it in a screenshot in the other thread. Can’t take these PWS’s as gospel, but golden gate gets pretty cold.

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Jimbean
47 minutes ago, ruskinPalms said:

There was a station west of Everglades blvd this morning in golden gate that was at 32F. Jim, I’m pretty sure you caught it in a screenshot in the other thread. Can’t take these PWS’s as gospel, but golden gate gets pretty cold.

Yes I saw that. 

I'm not posting this to be a jerk, but to show @tvold my point back when I thought he was trolling us.  I guess I've trolled him back a little haha. 

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chinandega81
13 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Yes I saw that. 

I'm not posting this to be a jerk, but to show @tvold my point back when I thought he was trolling us.  I guess I've trolled him back a little haha. 

I dont think any of this is trolling. Someone had a misconception and you backed up what most of us were saying. It has been civil and informative. Next weekend is setting up to remind us what our "real" hardiness zones are, lol!

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JLM

@tvold just an FYI, wind chill has no affect on plant hardiness zones, i saw you asked this previously. Wind chill is what we feel, the temperature could be 40F but feel like 35F. 35F in this case is what it feels like to people, only the 40F would matter for the temperature average. Hope this explains it!

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