Palm Removal Protest, Ocean Beach, San Diego

[Kim]

The City of San Diego insists on removal of very old Washingtonia robusta palms from under flight path; homeowners protest.

https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/san-diego-news/ocean-beach-residents-fight-to-stop-removal-of-palm-trees

 

[PalmatierMeg]

So the palms are pushing 100 years old. Are they on the way out due to age? How long do Washy robustas live? How many are there? Will Taking out 20 decimate the remaining population? Inquiring minds want to know.

Article says the city owns the land the palms sit on. The neighbors shouldn't have that much say if they don't own the palms. And considering all the times airplanes have fallen out of the sky onto residential neighborhoods in SD - just in the past few weeks recently - the plane vs. palm issue sort of solves itself. I think I will forgo flying to SD in the future if the palms win this argument. I'd rather not end up featured on a future episode of "Air Disasters."

[Darold Petty]

I call BS on the city's lame explanation about flight path interference, and would assume that they just wanted the palms removed and developed this rationalization after the decision.  Too bad Bo Lundquist doen't post any longer.  Kim, we need an informed opinion by someone who knows about airplanes.  (That's not me ! )  

 

 

[Chris Chance]

Honestly I feel like San Diego along with many other places want to remove palms and plant regular trees in place. They rationalize that it's great to add shade but also it causes other issues like limbs falling on cars and roots lifting sidewalks. Also the mess of leaves everywhere. I doubt the palms were ever in the flight path but it's hard to say since I'm not in aviation. 

[Johnny Palmseed]

Looking at the location of Ocean Beach, it’s approximately 2-3 miles from the end of the runway. Depending on exactly where these palms are, the flight path could be directly over them. The FAA requires obstacle clearance along these paths, regardless of departures or arrivals. Whether they are truly impacting this would require a lot of calculations. For those inclined, search FAA TERPS and enjoy that light reading. Really, this is just another example of people who buy homes near an airport and then want to complain about it. Honestly, the trees are not the property of the residents and they probably have no recourse. This mirrors when people plant palms in easements under power lines without thinking about the future growth. Eventually they need to be removed.

[Kim]

From what I have read, most of the time the planes taking off are many hundreds of feet above the palms as they take off toward the ocean. However, when the winds reverse, as they sometimes do, the approach to the airport for landings takes a path directly over these tall palms coming in from the ocean, and the radio instrument communication could be compromised by the tall palms. So, while fairly unusual, it does seem the palms should go in favor of public safety.

As to frequent crashes -- plane crashes in the last 20 years have involved the small municipal airports and only private planes, not at all in the same location or class of air transport as the commercial airlines using San Diego International Airport,  and no relevance whatsoever to this subject.

If I were a homeowner in this area, I would be concerned that the city will simply cut down the palms without removing stumps, making it nearly impossible to replant with more appropriate street trees.

[Tracy]

3 hours ago, Kim said:

From what I have read, most of the time the planes taking off are many hundreds of feet above the palms as they take off toward the ocean. However, when the winds reverse, as they sometimes do, the approach to the airport for landings takes a path directly over these tall palms coming in from the ocean, and the radio instrument communication could be compromised by the tall palms. So, while fairly unusual, it does seem the palms should go in favor of public safety.

I'm still a bit puzzled about the altitude that planes come in when they reverse direction as they still have t fly over Loma Portal neighborhood after going over Santa Monica Avenue in OB.  My mother in law had a home in Loma Portal on Willow Street on the ridgeline above old NTC  for decades and it would seem that the approaching jets would have to be a lot higher in OB when they clear her neighborhood in Loma Portal.  Palms in Bankers Hill on the other side of the airport make a little more sense, but still puzzling given the construction of a couple of parking garages on the normal approach which seem much more problematic.  It sounds more like an excuse to remove old palms and plant more canopy providing trees disguised as an airport issue to me. 

If Spreckels really planted those palms, I'm surprised the SD Historical Society wasn't down to photograph them or want to review their removal  .

[Tyrone]

Interference with radio instruments etc was mentioned in this thread. I work in radio communications and there is no way that a few washingtonias would even slightly interfere with any radio communications at all. You couldnt even measure any difference with top end test equipment. It wouldnt be that at all.

Im kind of amazed that they dont realise that Washingtonias are native to southern california, so technically theyre a native plant suited to the conditions, contrary to the nonsense written in the article saying that regular native trees are better.

Maybe on approach they may enter some flight corridor exclusion zone. It would be interesting if there are any multi story houses in the area. If so, I’d say someone just wants them cut down for some reason. 

[Silas_Sancona]

24 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Interference with radio instruments etc was mentioned in this thread. I work in radio communications and there is no way that a few washingtonias would even slightly interfere with any radio communications at all. You couldnt even measure any difference with top end test equipment. It wouldnt be that at all.

Im kind of amazed that they dont realise that Washingtonias are native to southern california, so technically theyre a native plant suited to the conditions, contrary to the nonsense written in the article saying that regular native trees are better.

Maybe on approach they may enter some flight corridor exclusion zone. It would be interesting if there are any multi story houses in the area. If so, I’d say someone just wants them cut down for some reason. 

Washingtonia filifera is a CA. native..   W.  robusta is native to areas further south in Baja Sur / Parts of mainland Mexico ( Western Sonora / Sinaloa ).  Baja would be considered part of the Calif. Floristic Province by many authorities though.

As far as what " might " replace them, would be curious to see what natives would fit the space and do well. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[Jimhardy]

I would guess if your hitting the palms with

your plane you weren't making it to the runway anyway.

[ZPalms]

I hope the washies win cause they do hold historical value and they look nice, and I highly doubt those washies are that tall and reaching airspace cause they must be flying real low for it to be a hazard. but if they must come down, the city should just transplant newer shorter washies as a compromise, but I highly doubt they would cause they would need to remove the old stump and everything, and I don't think they would want to waste resources on that and having to end up doing it again couple years later 

I've visited California years ago and I thought washies were magical, I'm sure some residents find them to be a nuisance or telephone poles but It makes me sad to see city wanting to replace palms with native trees and I get the idea behind having more shade but why must they get rid of the existing palms or at least have a mix because my favorite thing about when I visited Los angeles was looking over the city and seeing these towering trees over the landscape!

Edited October 23, 2021 by ZPalms

[Kim]

One of the homeowners facing palm removal stated there is a house up the street from him that tops out higher than the palms, which really puts the whole idea of palm removal into question. 

Edit: One local person described it this way (see below). Still doesn't quite make sense to me.

"Without commenting on the way the City is handling this, I'll try to explain why the FAA wants the trees removed. Periodically, airports have to perform obstruction surveys. These surveys are performed to identify objects (trees, buildings, towers, etc.) and terrain that project into or through what are called "Imaginary Surfaces." These are planes that extend outward from the airport both in the direction of the runway and on either side of that the runway's center line. Because SDIA essentially sits in a bowl, the imaginary surfaces are located very close to ground level in the higher areas of Point Loma, and actually extend through the surfaces in Balboa Park. Certainly no one expects to see an airplane less than 300 feet above the ground on Newport Ave. and Santa Barbara, but the imaginary surfaces are calculated for safety reasons. The FAA has to take into account that things could happen (bad weather, faulty flight instrumentation, in-flight emergencies, etc.) that could result in an airplane doing exactly that. For that reason, the do their best to avoid or eliminate anything that pierces the imaginary surfaces. Someone commented above that any airplane that is flying that low is in trouble. That is exactly the point. A plane in trouble could be that low. Remember the building near Montgomery Field? They had to lop off several stories because the building violated the imaginary surfaces."

And about that building near Montgomery Field? The builders purposely added a couple of stories to the plans after they were approved for construction, and essentially built it higher than code on purpose! Had they conformed to code the way the plans were approved, they wouldn't have had to deconstruct those floors. They were hoping to act first and seek forgiveness later. Didn't work!

[Jimhardy]

Interesting explanation that gave me an idea....leave the trees there,

that way if a plane ever hits one and they didn't realize how low they were...

they will when they hit the tree...think of them as WARNING TREES.

[Tyrone]

17 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Washingtonia filifera is a CA. native..   W.  robusta is native to areas further south in Baja Sur / Parts of mainland Mexico ( Western Sonora / Sinaloa ).  Baja would be considered part of the Calif. Floristic Province by many authorities though.

As far as what " might " replace them, would be curious to see what natives would fit the space and do well. 

Thanks for the info. When you consider that California was originally part of Mexico, it’s quite easy to say that from a floristic point of view all Washingtonia belong to that region. It was the artificial man made border that moved. So any sensible person assessing the situation would view the genus endemic to the region the airport sits in. 

[Silas_Sancona]

20 minutes ago, Tyrone said:

Thanks for the info. When you consider that California was originally part of Mexico, it’s quite easy to say that from a floristic point of view all Washingtonia belong to that region. It was the artificial man made border that moved. So any sensible person assessing the situation would view the genus endemic to the region the airport sits in. 

Agree.. Southern CA ( and Baja ) were also attached to the Mex. West Coast in the past as well..  Unfortunately, some of the not so sensible people seem to have been able to pass the " California " native  narrative as fact,  instead of what is correct... that California, as a U.S. State,  is part of a far bigger region where plant ranges have swayed back and forth like the tide over time.