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Jimbean

Climate and Ecology of East Central Florida Observations

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Silas_Sancona
16 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Might be wrong, but looks like Umbrella tree (https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/schefflera-actinophylla/).

Tabebuia  ..Likely heterophylla.. ( though i've seen it miss labeled as T pallida before ) The two are often mixed up id -wise when you google them, but don't think pallida is as widely planted in FL. ( @Jerry@TreeZoo?? Thoughts?.. )  In " The Tropical Look ",  Riffle briefly discusses T. pallida as being nearly identical and essentially from the same range as heterophylla.

Both are almost always evergreen / have smooth, shiny green leaves ( pallida may be single-leaved, vs. producing the typical palmately compound leaves like most other Trumpet trees.. Can also see over ripe and ripening seed pods hanging on this specimen in one of the pictures.

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/53722-Tabebuia-heterophylla

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/918863-Tabebuia-pallida

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Jimbean
3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Tabebuia  ..Likely heterophylla.. ( though i've seen it miss labeled as T pallida before ) The two are often mixed up id -wise when you google them, but don't think pallida is as widely planted in FL. ( @Jerry@TreeZoo?? Thoughts?.. )  In " The Tropical Look ",  Riffle briefly discusses T. pallida as being nearly identical and essentially from the same range as heterophylla.

Both are almost always evergreen / have smooth, shiny green leaves ( pallida may be single-leaved, vs. producing the typical palmately compound leaves like most other Trumpet trees.. Can also see over ripe and ripening seed pods hanging on this specimen in one of the pictures.

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/53722-Tabebuia-heterophylla

https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/918863-Tabebuia-pallida

That's it!  I was hoping you would chime in for some of my unknowns.

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bubba

Great map based upon “what grows”!

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Jimbean
1 hour ago, bubba said:

Great map based upon “what grows”!

That's coming.  I want to do a Koppen comparison with locations in Florida with Patrick AFB and Melbourne.  I am currently looking at pre-2010 coconuts and trying to find pre-1989 royals (which is probably going to be too difficult at this point) and drawing a rough map. 

 

I would like to see how Patrick AFB compares with West Palm Beach.  I know where to get the information, just have not had the time.

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Jimbean

My neighborhood.

There are at least six pre-2010 coconuts in my area within a square mile. 

Brevard map.png

zones.png

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Jimbean

1. These two are located off of Babcock st., about 1/2 a mile away from me.  There's actually two there, but I took this picture at a bad angle.

2. I've talked to someone living close to this one and she said this was there before 2010.  Three blocks away from me.

3. This one looks like a tall variety of some kind.  I've also confirmed this as planted before 2010.  Also three blocks away from me.

4 & 5. This was located about a mile away from me.  I noticed this on my way home.  Notice the freeze damage on the trunk. 

There is another one that I am sure was planted prior to 2010, but I did not get a picture of.  There are at least a few more candidates that could be pre-2010 coconuts that are about a mile from my house.  I don't want to include them unless I am reasonably sure. 

 

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Edited by Jimbean
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Jimbean

Other plants in or close to my neighborhood:

Biggest plumeria I could find

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Jimbean

west indies mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni)

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Jimbean

Here's a one clump of Dypsis lutescens.  There are many more large clumps that I did not take pictures of.

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Jimbean

Most likely pre-2010 Adonidia merrillii.  There are probably 5 to 10 pre-2010 or so in the neighborhood. 

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Jimbean

royal poinciana (Delonix regia)  Many of these also.  I see a lot of volunteers popping up.

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Jimbean

Moringa tree (Moringa oleifera).  I wanted to take a picture of this one.  There was two more in the lady's yard also.  I took these pictures with her permission.  I don't know what their cold hardiness, so I cannot vouch for this species as an indicator. 

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Jimbean

Strangler fig (Ficus aurea).  There are several in the area.  There's at least one larger tree that I might get a picture of later.  Here are two small ones. 

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Jimbean

There are many, many other species that exist that are candidates for mentioning here.  I honestly don't feel comfortable taking pictures in front of people's houses though. 

There are also some decent sized ficus trees.  There used to be a huge Ficus elastica that had a trunk the size of a car.  It was cut down because in ruined the resident's sprinkler system. 

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Jimbean

Also there are a ton of other coconuts and royals, probably post 2010 and post 1989 respectively

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Jimbean

Along the highway down the street.  Probably before pre-2010 but I don't know for sure.  Otherwise nothing special. 

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Jimbean
1 hour ago, Jimbean said:

Strangler fig (Ficus aurea).  There are several in the area.  There's at least one larger tree that I might get a picture of later.  Here are two small ones. 

20211012_133300.jpg

20211012_133415.jpg

 

This is the one I was talking about

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bubba

This brings common sense to the USDA system. What grows. You need to copyright and publish! Bravo!

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Jimbean
On 10/15/2021 at 6:34 AM, bubba said:

This brings common sense to the USDA system. What grows. You need to copyright and publish! Bravo!

Haha

At this point I wish other forum members from the Tampa Bay and Orlando areas would do something like this too.  Originally this was not my idea.

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Jimbean

Temperate forest/sand pine scrub near my house. 

 

 

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kinzyjr
10 hours ago, Jimbean said:

Haha

At this point I wish other forum members from the Tampa Bay and Orlando areas would do something like this too.  Originally this was not my idea.

As far as tropical and subtropical hardwoods, not so much once you get past the Delonix regia and Ficus posts.  However, in regard to the palms growing in those areas, they already have.  I've compiled a short list of some threads with palms posted on them.  There are others for New Smyrna Beach and other areas around in the vicinity of the Central Florida metro areas.

Orlando area:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/59360-zone-10-palms-in-the-orlando-area-mega-thread/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/57523-orlando-botanical-gardens/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55334-leu-gardens-visit-dec-1-2017/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/51900-leu-gardens-orlando-thanksgiving/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26909-trip-to-leu-gardens/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23864-afternoon-in-leu/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/1994-cocos-at-sea-world-orlando/

Sanford (in addition to posts in the Orlando area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56841-coconut-palm-trees-sanford-florida/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56758-large-foxtails-sanford/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56460-sanford-royal-palms-off-i-4-update/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/53333-north-central-fl-coconuts/

Tampa area:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61172-remarkable-palms-of-tampa-bay/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26369-cfpacs-holiday-garden-tours/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23605-busch-gardens-tampa-florida/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/5542-some-pics-of-my-first-trip-back-to-tampa/

St. Petersburg (in addition to posts in the Tampa area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/50060-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/54377-st-pete-palm-arborium/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55400-sunken-gardens/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8892-cfpacs-at-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/32444-cfpacs-meeting-march-31-stop-1-kopsick/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/21383-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/21028-gizella-kopsick-palm-arboretum/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/9046-st-petersburg-fl/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/8846-florida-botanical-gardens/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/6387-beautiful-downtown-st-petersburg-fl/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/2385-st-pete-beach/

Lakeland (in addition to posts in the Tampa area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/18482-hollis-gardens-in-lakeland-florida/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61890-common-ground-lakeland-fl/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61996-lake-wire-lakeland-fl/

Winter Haven (in addition to posts in the Tampa area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/48117-cypress-gardens-adventure-park-orlandofl-december-2015/

Bartow (in addition to posts in the Tampa area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/58073-nice-royal-and-overall-property-in-bartow-fl/

Lake Wales (in addition to posts in the Tampa area thread):

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/17446-bok-tower-lots-of-palm-pics/

Daytona Beach:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55010-northern-most-coconut-palm-tree-daytona-beach/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/60420-massive-daytona-beach-area-royals/

Jacksonville:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/69928-palms-around-town-jacksonville-fl/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/61438-range-of-royal-palms/

Others with less overall freeze testing:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/55422-coconuts-in-lakeland-fl/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/56607-trachycarpus-in-lakeland/

 

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Jimbean

I want to look at a few more locations and I want to make maps based on my observations.  For now, instead of using the USDA zones, I would prefer to make up my own zones based on observation.  After that I would like to do a collaboration with others for different locations. 

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Jimbean

More later.  I would like to see how this compares to other areas in Central Florida

New zones.png

map legend.png

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Jimbean

I want to clarify in the legend, where I say "abundance of tropical hardwoods..."  I mean native tropical hardwoods, not planted.

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Jimbean

Pre 2010 coconut and tree size strangler fig (Ficus aurea) west of I-95 in Palm Bay.  Coconut palm picture taken with owner's permission.

 

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Edited by Jimbean
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Jimbean

30 foot Ficus aurea.  Several more in the area and a few Ficus microcarpa

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Jimbean

Several Ficus aurea adjacent to the Indian River Lagoon.  Pre-2010 crownshaft palms in downtown Titusville. 

 

There were a lot more zone 10 palms here before 2010, and I think many did not make it then.  They certainly don't survive freezes like 1989; all royals are post 1989.  There were also no coconut palms.  Mangroves were much smaller on average and there was an absence of red mangrove. 

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Edited by Jimbean

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Jimbean

I also saw some subtropical species, which I can elaborate upon request. 

The area used to be a small community before the government bought the property.  I used to come here a long time ago and I remembered seeing foundation slabs and old landscaping plants including old Canary Island date palms.  I'll bet that these are the offspring. 

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Jimbean

I spent a few hours in the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge.  I rarely saw Ficus aurea.  I saw many subtropical species and temperate hardwood species.  No gumbo limbo, pond apple, cocoplum, ect. 

The pine trees resembled that of a more North Florida ecology interestingly enough.  In the area I saw pond pine (Pinus serotina) and what I would identify as North Florida slash pine (Pinus elliottii var elliottii), pictures respectively. 

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ChristianStAug

I have been enjoying this thread from up in St. Augustine. I wanted to share what I believe is Ficus aurea that I found growing in a cedar tree in the Davis Shores neighborhood on Anastasia Island. I thought it was pretty impressive!

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Jimbean
5 minutes ago, ChristianStAug said:

I have been enjoying this thread from up in St. Augustine. I wanted to share what I believe is Ficus aurea that I found growing in a cedar tree in the Davis Shores neighborhood on Anastasia Island. I thought it was pretty impressive!

9F0792B0-087C-4628-A1B4-B30EFCBD73A8.thumb.jpeg.5e7b645e086d722cd0be2006f2d2ebfb.jpeg

53B04270-C4C2-4152-88D3-2A4F7808AB84.jpeg

Yes sir that is Ficus aurea.  That is impressively far north for one to grow!

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ChristianStAug

Do you have any thoughts on the following plants as indicators? I understand they are all pretty safe in coastal Brevard but maybe you have some insights.

  • Strelitzia nicolai as huge multi-trunked specimens/clumps
  • Bauhinia × blakeana Hong Kong Orchid trees
  • Giant pothos vines that climb live oaks/palmettos
  • Norfolk Island pines as 40 foot trees
  • Pygmy Date Palms

 

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Jimbean
7 hours ago, ChristianStAug said:

Do you have any thoughts on the following plants as indicators? I understand they are all pretty safe in coastal Brevard but maybe you have some insights.

  • Strelitzia nicolai as huge multi-trunked specimens/clumps
  • Bauhinia × blakeana Hong Kong Orchid trees
  • Giant pothos vines that climb live oaks/palmettos
  • Norfolk Island pines as 40 foot trees
  • Pygmy Date Palms

 

In my opinion, for whatever it's worth (except for the orchid trees because I no idea what their cold tolerance is), those are all warm 9A plants.  If you see some old Pygmy Date Palms, maybe over 12 feet tall, that is probably a good 9B indicator.  Norfolk Island pines are a bit tricky because I believe that mature trees are more cold hardy than juveniles and they can take cold snaps pretty well, but don't do well in prolonged cold; I could be wrong.  

I'd say look for mangroves on the coast.  The average size of them says something about the coastal climate.  Have you seen seagrapes make up that way?  That strangler fig is interesting though.  If it starts to mature then I'd say it is a warm 9B indicator. 

My 'zones' are not based on average temperature, but as categories of what grows where, as pairings of groups of plants in zones (ie pre-1989 royals with abundance of native tropical hardwoods as 10A, invasive Brazilian pepper trees along with strangler fig and abundance of post 1989 royals as 9B, and so on)

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ChristianStAug
3 hours ago, Jimbean said:

In my opinion, for whatever it's worth (except for the orchid trees because I no idea what their cold tolerance is), those are all warm 9A plants.  If you see some old Pygmy Date Palms, maybe over 12 feet tall, that is probably a good 9B indicator.  Norfolk Island pines are a bit tricky because I believe that mature trees are more cold hardy than juveniles and they can take cold snaps pretty well, but don't do well in prolonged cold; I could be wrong.  

I'd say look for mangroves on the coast.  The average size of them says something about the coastal climate.  Have you seen seagrapes make up that way?  That strangler fig is interesting though.  If it starts to mature then I'd say it is a warm 9B indicator. 

My 'zones' are not based on average temperature, but as categories of what grows where, as pairings of groups of plants in zones (ie pre-1989 royals with abundance of native tropical hardwoods as 10A, invasive Brazilian pepper trees along with strangler fig and abundance of post 1989 royals as 9B, and so on)

We do have several seagrapes in the neighborhood. Not full-on shade trees like further south, but with leader stems 5 inches in diameter and total tree as big around as VW Beetle. There are a couple of Wodyetia in the neigborhood, dypsis lutescens, some homes with in-ground plumeria that they ignore in winter unlike me, as well as sizable ficus lyrata. The town has some notable A. Cunninghamianas as well.  I need to get out and take some more pictures. 

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Jimbean
1 hour ago, ChristianStAug said:

 I need to get out and take some more pictures. 

Go for it

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Jimbean


Notable freezes, 1989 and 2010.  Post about the size of observation, then we can make a guess whether post or pre ‘89 or ‘10 freeze.  


Strictly observations:


Mexican washingtonia palm (Washingtonia robusta)
queen palm (Syagrus romanzoffiana)

pygmy date palm (Phoenix roebelenii)

Royal palm (Roystonea regia)

Alexander palm (Archontophoenix alexandrae)

Solitaire palm (Ptychosperma elegans)

Butterfly palm (Dypsis lutescens) Judging by the size, not the mere presence.  

Spindle palm (Hyophorbe verschaffeltii)

Bottle palm (Hyophorbe lagenicaulis)

Christmas palm (Adonidia merrillii)

coconut palm (Cocos nucifera)

 

Tropical hardwoods, judging the size of the tree as an indicator.  

Ficus spp

Royal poinciana (delonix regia)

Sea grape (Coccoloba uvifera)

gumbo limbo (Bursera simaruba)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=727

pond apple (Annona glabra)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2172

West Indies mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=3577

Black olive (Terminalia buceras)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=2793

Australian pine (Casuarina)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Results.aspx


Brazilian peppertree (Schinus terebinthifolia)

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=52

umbrella tree (Schefflera actinophylla)

Java plum (Syzygium cumini)

earleaf acacia  (Acacia auriculiformis)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=43

Mango (Mangifera indica)

https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=1477


Avocado (Persea americana)

Plumaria (Plumeria obtusa)
https://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Plant.aspx?id=1313

Do you folks think that these are good indicator species?  Should I add any?  Any thoughts? 

Edited by Jimbean

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