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Jubaea or Phoenix theophrasti, which one is hardier?

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DreaminAboutPalms
1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

@Dreaming_of_Zone_15b If all of those palms survived the 2011 freeze, there is no way they took -25C / -13F back then, especially when they were much smaller too. It couldn't have been anywhere near that cold, surely. Robusta dominant hybrids and CIDP's would not take -25C / -13F with 83% humidity. That is basically a 5b winter in a 7b/8a zone.

I would say -20C is the absolute limit for them, but that is still pushing it, even in a dry, semi-arid or desert climate. CIDP's have died from -12C to -14C along the French Med and they have been killed by -18C in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, which is even drier than Alamogordo. There may not be much moisture in the air, but the moisture that exists within the cells of the palm will still freeze to the point of death at a certain temperature. When the cells freeze and expand the cells are destroyed. The smaller the palm, the more susceptible due to less mass and insulation. 

There's no way small CIDP's are taking -20C or lower and surviving. I suspect Alamogordo only went down to -18C or something during the 2011 event, similar to Las Cruces. Even that is hard to believe though. I wonder if people protected many of those ones during the 2011 freeze? I could imagine quite a few of them have been planted since the freeze as well. Nonetheless, the CIDP's and Robusta hybrids in that thread have probably survived temperatures that are almost unheard of anywhere. 

I agree. I’ve looked around in google maps street view from April 2011 and the damage is no worse than in El Paso which hit 1 degrees or in las cruces. 

Edited by DreaminAboutPalms

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Collectorpalms

Large Canaries were the only real Winners of the 2021 TX ( Zone 8a and 8b ) Freeze for pinnate palms. True Dates, Jubaea, Butia,  Butia Hybrids were dissapointments.   Sabals out-did W Filiifera for palmate palms.

Its possible that in a couple years more damage will show up on the canaries, and end up with crown collapse. Seemed as if once some of my palms regained several fronds the trunks couldnt hold them up, and they slowly croaked and fell over.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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ahosey01

Found this in the US government's report on those freezing temps in that Feb 2011 event:

image.png.5bc4a4fd00fdd52ed2c60537410bc6d4.png

It looks like -10F (-23.3C) is a valid reading from that event.

Separately, the DRI has a station in Tularosa, at approximately the same elevation as Alamogordo, and they show a reading in Tularosa of -8F (-22.2C):

 

image.png.6637257236ad14ef081e386edc061c9f.png

 

I think it's possible it wasn't quite -25C but it certainly appears they survived below -20C.

Edited by ahosey01
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DreaminAboutPalms

Pure robusta survived 2011. Northeast part of city too 

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DreaminAboutPalms

All from Northeast Alamogordo 

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DreaminAboutPalms

Here's a pair of alamogordo CIDP in 2007, 2013, and 2021. 

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DreaminAboutPalms

More robusta/robusta hybrids that survived. absolutely remarkable 

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Edited by DreaminAboutPalms
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Collectorpalms

keep dreaming...flat central texas wont ever look the same in my lifetime. 30 years was a record.

typically in those high desert areas there is a temperature inversion where its warmer on the slopes. so those palms saw warmer temperatures than the airport. you can also get a warming downslope wind too. drought stress is another factor for washingtonia.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Meangreen94z
9 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Large Canaries were the only real Winners of the 2021 TX ( Zone 8a and 8b ) Freeze for pinnate palms. True Dates, Jubaea, Butia,  Butia Hybrids were dissapointments.   Sabals out-did W Filiifera for palmate palms.

Its possible that in a couple years more damage will show up on the canaries, and end up with crown collapse. Seemed as if once some of my palms regained several fronds the trunks couldnt hold them up, and they slowly croaked and fell over.

Butia did ok, Brahea aren’t as common in Texas but most species did well(Armata, Decumbens, Dulcis, Bella, Nitida, Moorei, Clara, etc.)

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Collectorpalms
34 minutes ago, Meangreen94z said:

Butia did ok, Brahea aren’t as common in Texas but most species did well(Armata, Decumbens, Dulcis, Bella, Nitida, Moorei, Clara, etc.)

In Hutto, 1 of 3 Butia  lived 33% the one that lived was Eriospatha. Out at the Brazos river very heavy trunked butia 4/8 lived 50%, The ones in Town that I am aware of more than 50% died. My Brahea Armata initially lived, then got rot and died. Older Brahea Moorei died at A&M.

Id say that your looking at maybe 2 degree difference in doing well, and doing bad.

Also pretty certain Peckerwood didnt have anywhere close to 6 inches of snow and an inch of ice on their Braheas. My Brahea Dulcis and Clara survived. My two other Braheas were wrapped and survived. Doubt the wrapping changed temperature due to the duration of the cold, but it did keep the ice off.

BTW, the new Butia x Parajubaea T really loved the summer here.

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Meangreen94z
4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

In Hutto, 1 of 3 Butia  lived 33% the one that lived was Eriospatha. Out at the Brazos river very heavy trunked butia 4/8 lived 50%, The ones in Town that I am aware of more than 50% died. My Brahea Armata initially lived, then got rot and died. Older Brahea Moorei died at A&M.

Id say that your looking at maybe 2 degree difference in doing well, and doing bad.

Also pretty certain Peckerwood didnt have anywhere close to 6 inches of snow and an inch of ice on their Braheas. My Brahea Dulcis and Clara survived. My two other Braheas were wrapped and survived. Doubt the wrapping changed temperature due to the duration of the cold, but it did keep the ice off.

BTW, the new Butia x Parajubaea T really loved the summer here.

 

Yeah, I’m sure slight temperature variation and location as far wind/soil/drainage/ etc.. also factored into survival.

      Hopefully we have atleast another 20 years of “relatively” mild temperatures and those palms do well for you. I would like to see interesting palm collections again in Texas. 

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MSX
On 12/7/2021 at 10:00 PM, ahosey01 said:

Most Cupressus sempervirens, which are clearly toasted in that street view capture, are good to 5F or slightly below with some damage, but not getting completely fried like that.

it follows that CIDP even hardier than Italian cypress, under the same conditions...?

Edited by MSX

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ahosey01
9 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

keep dreaming...flat central texas wont ever look the same in my lifetime. 30 years was a record.

typically in those high desert areas there is a temperature inversion where its warmer on the slopes. so those palms saw warmer temperatures than the airport. you can also get a warming downslope wind too. drought stress is another factor for washingtonia.

According to the US gov, northeast Alamogordo hit -10F in that event, which is on the hill benefitting from temperature inversion.

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ahosey01
4 minutes ago, MSX said:

it follows that CIDP even hardier than Italian cypress, under the same conditions...?

Seems reasonable based on those photos.

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DreaminAboutPalms
11 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Yeah, I’m sure slight temperature variation and location as far wind/soil/drainage/ etc.. also factored into survival.

      Hopefully we have atleast another 20 years of “relatively” mild temperatures and those palms do well for you. I would like to see interesting palm collections again in Texas. 

I’m worried that we get another cold event in next 5 years and that it will kill off the remainder of the 30-40’ tall Washingtonia hybrids in central Texas. Historically all the big freezes come in pairs: 1983 and 1989, 1949 and 1951 and then 1885 and 1889 I believe. 

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DreaminAboutPalms

What temperature does CIDP defoliate at in desert conditions? 

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UK_Palms

I still think the jury is definitely out on the official temperatures that each of these palms would have taken? If those Robusta's and CIDP's took an overnight low of -23C / -10F and a daytime high of just -9C / 15F, that is pretty much unprecedented anywhere in terms of temperatures that those species have survived and recovered from. It makes you wonder whether Filifera could recover from -25C to -30C / - 15F to -22F potentially there, if Robusta's took -23C / -10F and survived. I still find that hard to believe as it just seems crazy, but I can't argue with the station recordings.

This not only re-writes the hardiness rating for these species (in dry, desert conditions) but it also tells me that the ones around London aren't going to get knocked out either then, despite being in a wetter, more humid climate. It just won't get cold enough, since central London hasn't been below 20F for 30-40 years now. The record low at Greenwich is only -9C / 15F and that was recorded decades ago before climate change had amplified to this extent and before London's UHI was as intense as it is now. So that bodes pretty well for the London CIDP's and Washies. 

I think a CIDP came back from a low of 0F and 250 hours below freezing in Dallas this year too, only to then be chopped down for some reason? I know it was located up against a building. Is that one still there? @Collectorpalms That is certainly the coldest temperature and conditions that a CIDP has survived outside of New Mexico then, to my own knowledge. The coldest central London has seen in the past 30 years is about -6C / 20F and 72 hours below freezing. I think it would take a low of -12C / 10F to completely defoliate the bigger ones in London and -15C / 5F to outright kill them as they are fully established. So it would literally have to be the coldest winter on record, ever.

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VA Jeff

I didn't read every post in this thread, but I suspect aJubaeas are much hardier than theophrasti,  I have a jubaea in my yard that is well over 12 years old, not sure exactly.  I've grown dactylifera and canariensis with far less success. More humid winter, but still cold.  Ironically, I have a friend I work with from Turkmenistan.  His country is probably in much worse political condition than Uzbekistan.

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Collectorpalms

I am going to try and get to the point. What is the best Pinnate Palm in a desert climate zone 8a?

Answer is Canary Island Date Palm and a close second possibly Phoenix Theophrasti. They will defoliate at 17F, so if you regularly get below that, they are going to struggle. So you have to get them to large sizes before they are hardy to extreme cold. The massive girth of them is why they can withstand a longer extreme spell. I added Theoprastii after another thread I just saw that two lived in San Angelo, Tx after -1 this year. ( they were up against the house).

Why Isnt Jubaea a good Choice, its TOO DAMN SLOW. Also, Massive imported ones also died in a less cold hardy spell in San Angelo back during 2011, ( the El Paso event) while Phoenix Lived.

Another Option is Butia Erisopatha. I planted one right next to a larger regular Butia In northeast Austin, and the smaller Erisopatha survived 2F. Both had been in ground for 10 years, but the Erisopatha was much smaller when planted. ADVANTAGE of Butia Erisopatha is that it will not burn until about 12F, so it will look good most years without having to regrow a crown. 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Swolte

@Collectorpalms your Theo didn't make it last winter, correct? Have you heard of any who survived in this region without protection?

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UK_Palms

I’m pretty sure CIDP will burn at 17-18F and incur frond damage, but they won’t actually defoliate until about 12F. The central growing bud appears to be okay down to about 0F on big specimens, or -10F in dry, desert climates. Although you also have to factor in moisture/ice/snow, freeze duration, daytime warmup, spring warmup etc. There are lots of different factors and variables. CIDP’s will obviously burn and defoliate at higher temps where I am here, compared to say Alamogordo, but they are clearly exceptionally hardy palms either way. It makes you wonder just how hardy Jubaea would be in a place like Alamogordo?

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Meangreen94z
1 hour ago, Swolte said:

@Collectorpalms your Theo didn't make it last winter, correct? Have you heard of any who survived in this region without protection?

I believe Matt-N-Dallas had one survive 6-7*F in San Marcos. I don’t remember if it was one of the palms he wrapped or not, but most likely. They are a lot hardier in dry conditions.

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Axel Amsterdam
2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

 

Another Option is Butia Erisopatha. I planted one right next to a larger regular Butia In northeast Austin, and the smaller Erisopatha survived 2F. Both had been in ground for 10 years, but the Erisopatha was much smaller when planted. ADVANTAGE of Butia Erisopatha is that it will not burn until about 12F, so it will look good most years without having to regrow a crown. 

I am in a completely different climate (more UK like, wet winters) but I have the same experience. Eriospatha is very leaf hardy here. We had a week of ice skating fun on the lakes and canals here and eriospatha didn't suffer a single brown leaf. 

Here, I think the hardiness is similar to jubaea but the eriospatha is much faster.     

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Collectorpalms
2 hours ago, Swolte said:

@Collectorpalms your Theo didn't make it last winter, correct? Have you heard of any who survived in this region without protection?

After seeing the ones in San Angelo just posted, and Even though I purchased it at Jungle Music in person in 2005, it never clustered offshoots. So I am not sure what Phoenix it was, so I am declaring it was not a pure Theophrasti. It was planted among live oaks and was thinner than it should have been as well. I think the thicker trunked the better, for cold hardiness so keeping a Theophrasti pruned to a single trunk so they are not competing is the way to go in general for palms. It did seem to be more leaf hardy because I never recall it defoliating.

It never even tried to come back, like my Sylvestris did, and what I head about the Medjool Dates in Austin and Katy that came back and declined. I do not know of any other Theophrasti in central Texas. ( Does yours have hints of offshots yet?) The San Angelos ones must be the biggest in Texas in zone 8.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Swolte

Interesting, I believe @Fusca may have (or had) one but I can't think of any other person (except for you and me) or botanical garden in Texas. Mine has no hints of offshoots yet but it is also quite young. I believe I got mine from TCHP. 

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Meangreen94z
7 hours ago, Swolte said:

Interesting, I believe @Fusca may have (or had) one but I can't think of any other person (except for you and me) or botanical garden in Texas. Mine has no hints of offshoots yet but it is also quite young. I believe I got mine from TCHP. 

Matt-N-Dallas had one survive the freeze in San Marcos, I sold him my 10/15 gallon size after the freeze so he has a second.

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Fusca
14 hours ago, Swolte said:

Interesting, I believe @Fusca may have (or had) one but I can't think of any other person (except for you and me) or botanical garden in Texas. Mine has no hints of offshoots yet but it is also quite young. I believe I got mine from TCHP. 

Yes, I bought a 3-gal theo from Joseph in 2018 but it didn't survive February's freeze unprotected.  It was a good grower, just a little slower than my CIDP which also died in the freeze.  I think my theo started suckering a year and a half after planting.  I was surprised that the CIDP didn't come back since it had gotten pretty big but probably would have made it with another year of growth.

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MSX

What about an acclimatisation factor and its role in the context of stunning hardiness of these palms?

University of Florida, Cold Damage on Palms: "the absolute temperature at which chilling injury occurs is less useful as a predictor of damage than the degree of cold acclimation a particular palm has experienced. For instance, a tropical palm acclimated to night temperatures of 70°F, but suddenly subjected to a single night of 45°F may experience some foliar necrosis  a result. However, if that same palm had experienced gradually decreasing temperatures over a period of weeks, it may not show any cold injury symptoms until exposed to temperatures in the low to middle 30°sF." This could be extrapolated to other more cold hardy palms as well.

The following charts from weatherspark.com show gradual decline in temperature before the extreme events... Alamo.jpg.6709d1c6a4fbacf884eafe04cb9ca737.jpgAlbq.jpg.2a58d70d5b803d04a51830581b1a0176.jpgTermz.jpg.22e86ddbaf58cc296771ad3a188ad33f.jpg

Edited by MSX

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MarkbVet
On 9/10/2021 at 9:53 AM, MSX said:

Thank you for your comment! The main question is not even about me and my location, I started to wonder why one popular website pushes Jubea, widely known as the hardiest of all pinnates, a way behind almost all Phoenix species, including CIDP, and Butias, and how reliable this information is.

We are in the mid of 8a USDA hardiness zone and have generally dry winters, dry springs, dry falls and super dry summers, with avg annual precipitation 185 mm, and annual humidity about 55%,  Three major palms that grow here without winter protection are Trachies, Washies and Chamaerops, but they're all fan palms. For some uknown reason I've never seen any Sabal palm, or Nannorrhops ritchiana. I was just thinking of adding some hardy pinnate palm.

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Provided that you can give adequate irrigation, you have an advantage with less winter rain, hence being able to grow Washingtonias (which can struggle in my wetter zone 8 area).   Jubaea chilensis may do ok there,  and N. ritchiana (if not too wet), and Butia odorota/capitata or of course B. eriospatha,  and Brahea armata (cold hardy into zone 8 if dry, but doesn't like winter wet).  Plus the needle palm, etc etc, IF you can provide enough water for the moisture-loving species.    So at least 3 pinnate species worth trying; Butias will grow faster than Jubaea for sure. Not familiar enough with the Phoenix species to say with confidence, but again having not wet/soggy winters may benefit you. Question is: how low are your lowest lows, and how much heavy dry/cold wind is whipping around those plants?  My zone 8 is a mild zone 8, wet but usually predictable, not a lot of gales and harsh cold winds.  

Edited by MarkbVet
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Getta Robo

I'm not aware what kind of seedlings / ecotypes didn't fair well in zone 7 areas, but I can tell you that quite a few Phoenix theophrastii do grow and thrive in the northern parts of Greece, such as in Thessaloniki, Stavroupoli there are several adult theophrastii in their botanical garden, as well in other neighborhoods, growing outdoors without any sorts of production for more than 20 years, and have survived temperatures of -16C, for numerous nights throughout the years.

Therefore, if you tried to grow theophrastii in zone 7 or similar, try to obtain seeds by palms growing on a similar climate/temperatures instead.

 

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Kris99

Hi everyone

To add my two cents.
Jubaea and Butia saplings did quite well without damage from last winter while Trachycarpus now died in dry weather conditions.

About my location, I live in Mannheim, a warm spot of Germany.

Trachycarpus, Chamaerops and hardy agaves can be seen in gardens and parks, even Sabal minor in Parks and parakeets are everywhere here.

The Exotenwald in Weinheim on the slopes of Schwarzwald (black forest) is home of old giant and coastal redwoods and so on.

 

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MSX
On 6/16/2022 at 3:50 AM, Kris99 said:

To add my two cents.
Jubaea and Butia saplings did quite well without damage from last winter while Trachycarpus now died in dry weather conditions.

 

Hello and thanks for your input

Well, that's very interesting to hear that the cocosoids outperformed a bullet-proof Windmill

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Desert DAC
On 12/7/2021 at 1:58 PM, UK_Palms said:

So Alamogordo actually saw -25C / -13F at sunrise with humidity levels of 84%. The idea of any palms surviving this, let alone CIDP's, seems crazy to me. I would expect total defoliation and probably death for Trachycarpus Fortunei even. Pretty much no palms are going to take that extent of cold. I don't want to sound ignorant, but I suspect the two CIDP's outside that restaurant in Alamogordo were either replaced 'like for like' after the freeze, or they were protected. I wouldn't be surprised if the owner cut all the fronds off, then wrapped them up thoroughly for a few days. There is no way they took -25C / -13F at such a small size, unprotected, and then came back okay. I would expect -15C / 5F to kill small CIDP's dead of that size, even in a dry, desert climate.

Are there any other palm survivors from Alamogordo? Any other species, or specimens whatsoever? I also have to question that temperature reading of -25C / -13F. Perhaps it was far higher than that, like say -15C / 5F...? I know it isn't the most reliable source, but Wikipedia has Alamogordo's record low as -20C / -4F set during 1962. That raises questions about how cold it really got there in 2011...? Las Cruces International Airport only went down to -18C / 0F on the 3rd Feb 2011 and had a high of -9C the day before that, so although still very cold, it does seem unlikely that Alamogordo would have seen -25C / -13F, but not impossible. It certainly raises more questions. I personally don't think it got anywhere near that cold, and if it did, those CIDP's must have been protected, surely!?

Las Cruces rarely gets as cold at night as Alamogordo. Except the Feb 2011 event, stronger cold fronts tend to cause Alamogordo low temperatures to fall somewhere between lows in  Albuquerque and Las Cruces. Daytimes usually warm up more than ABQ and are similar to Las Cruces, though a 20 year event like 2011 not so much. The coldest air here comes from the east and north, and Las Cruces has another series of N-S trending mountains to moderate cold, which Alamogordo and the Tularosa Basin get. Also, the Las Cruces Airport is near me and we're west of the river, also not as cold during arctic airmass events.

Also, it's likely Alamogordo has been colder than the -4F reading from 1962. Even on the thermal belt of the slopes along the Sacramento Mountains. Las Cruces probably has the mildest winters in NM, overall - especially extreme cold. Many plants bear that out, which freeze and die in Carlsbad, Alamogordo, and T or C.

I'll find another Palm Talk post, which offers more clues to the hardiness of palm and other marginal subtropical plants here in NM - the solar intensity and our latitude and elevation.

This is a screenshot of lows on the coldest night in Feb 2011, from the National Weather Service office serving our region:

https://www.weather.gov/media/epz/Storm_Reports/Cold11/Feb2011ColdWx.pdf

image.png.ada150743e4dfa530a492f1ff2b29c61.png

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Desert DAC
On 12/8/2021 at 11:33 AM, UK_Palms said:

@Dreaming_of_Zone_15b If all of those palms survived the 2011 freeze, there is no way they took -25C / -13F back then, especially when they were much smaller too. It couldn't have been anywhere near that cold, surely. Robusta dominant hybrids and CIDP's would not take -25C / -13F with 83% humidity. That is basically a 5b winter in a 7b/8a zone.

I would say -20C is the absolute limit for them, but that is still pushing it, even in a dry, semi-arid or desert climate. CIDP's have died from -12C to -14C along the French Med and they have been killed by -18C in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, which is even drier than Alamogordo. There may not be much moisture in the air, but the moisture that exists within the cells of the palm will still freeze to the point of death at a certain temperature. When the cells freeze and expand the cells are destroyed. The smaller the palm, the more susceptible due to less mass and insulation. 

There's no way small CIDP's are taking -20C or lower and surviving. I suspect Alamogordo only went down to -18C or something during the 2011 event, similar to Las Cruces. Even that is hard to believe though. I wonder if people protected many of those ones during the 2011 freeze? I could imagine quite a few of them have been planted since the freeze as well. Nonetheless, the CIDP's and Robusta hybrids in that thread have probably survived temperatures that are almost unheard of anywhere. 

The likely factor increasing palms and other subtropicals (that can handle deserts). Sunshine duration and intensity, elevation, and the lower end of the middle-latitudes. Albuquerque is 35N / 4900-6200 ft, Las Cruces is 32N / 3900-5000 ft. Scroll down on the link for some maps showing *winter* sunshine.

 

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Fallen Munk
On 9/10/2021 at 11:59 AM, Chester B said:

 I have B odorota and eriospatha as well as Jubaea and have never experienced damage with any of them so can't say from my experience.

Same.  Interestingly enough though, my jubaea x butia hybrids are less hardy.   I had some spear pull on many of my hybrids.  Actually all of them except for B. yatay x J. chilensis.  That one is beasty.

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Fallen Munk
On 12/10/2021 at 5:51 AM, Collectorpalms said:

Why Isnt Jubaea a good Choice, its TOO DAMN SLOW. 

Jubaea is one of my fastest palms.  Two years growth in these photos.

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