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Long term palm strategy


ruskinPalms

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I think that I may actually be done planting for the summer. My wife finally got fed up and the ARB of the HOA has been on the prowl... Anyway. My strategy at this point in time is to plant anything tropical and cheap and see what makes it over the next couple of winters. So far I have planted Bismarckia nobilis, Veitchia arecina, Veitchia merrillii, Cocos nucifera, Dypsis lutescens, Hyophorbe langenicaulis, Roystonea regia, some sort of Archontophoenix sp. and Wodyetia bifurcata. Oh yeh, and one Queen Palm that the builder planted (the one that will be alive next summer).  I will build upon successes for future plantings. i.e. if the Foxtails seem to make it better than the V. arecina, I will add more Foxtails to the landscape. If they all seem to be making it, I will get more adventurous and add rarer, more expensive tropical palms in bare spots. If they all are turned to coleslaw except the Queen, then I will replant species from from the Washingtonia, Phoenix and Syragus genera and other more rare cold and frost hardy genera. I figured I may as well try the tropical stuff out first as these tend to have the "look" I desire. I have also planted some canopy trees such as Live Oak and Ficus Elastica, but face it, these will not provide meaningful canopy anytime soon. I planted a lot of the most tender stuff as near to the house as I felt comfortable in the hopes that heat radiated from the house will provide a little extra cold protection. That is pretty much my long term strategy. Any thoughts?

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Treated well, the live oak will surprise you with its growth.  For long-term, do you have space for a nice Everglades palm?  There's a huge clump in Plant City.  

Coccothrinax argentata seems surprisingly hardy.  Dr. Brown is said to have an old one at his Valkaria Tropical Gardens in southern Brevard County, well inland.  

Dr. Brown sells bromeliads that are hardy at his place, not to mention ti plants!

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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And let me remind everyone....Chamaedorea's do extremly well in Central Florida and even farther north. Grant it they don't provide shade, but if your looking to add some species, they will fit the bill. Some of the tough ones are, C. microspadix, C. radicalis and C. metallica. Give them a try.

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

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(ruskinPalms @ Aug. 06 2006,19:23)

QUOTE
If they all are turned to coleslaw except the Queen, then I will replant species from from the Washingtonia, Phoenix and Syragus genera and other more rare cold and frost hardy genera.

Bill-

As much as I ignore this fact...there is a reason why those species are the ones in most every yard  :(

But, I am in denial for the time being.  

I think one can be successful long term with species outside the hardy ones you listed but it will take manual intervention.

In my doomsday preparations, I have been adding another barrier (in addition to palm socks) to Ma Nature's wrath...preliminary tests have been good  :D

RLP155-5.jpg

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Strategy?!?

yeah!

More palms . . . . .

dave

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Yeah, like Dave said!   I am done planting at my current house.  I've got lot's of Archontophoenix, a few Queens and some other smaller fun stuff that make up a nice landscaped garden/yard.  However, this is our first house and we will not be staying here for more than a few more years.  I just can't bring myself to planting any more palms in the ground that it will just break my hear to leave here.  So, I built a greenhouse and I'm starting to stock up for my next garden.  I've always planted everything in the ground, so container growing is a little different.  I've really gotta watch them close.

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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world domination thru superior germination!!!!

I can't tell you the plan, then everybody would know and it wouldn't be a secret anymore!!!!!

Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

Abraham Lincoln

The way of the transgressor is hard

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MattyB,

This is our first house too. The next one looks like it will be in the (dare I say it) Miami area. As soon as my wife finishes her Master's degree here at USF (go bulls...) we plan to be going to Miami. This should happen in a few more years. She has some family down there and we want to raise out kids in a Hispanic culture. Seems kinda like cheating to be a palm freak in Miami though. Not too challenging. But, this may not happen and I am obviously into palms so this current landscape is it. So, I am pushing the zones!

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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Larry,

That thing looks like a huge hair drier! Good luck with that! I hope that it works out for you this winter. I guess you will have the surviving palms the next 22 degree night :laugh:

Parrish, FL

Zone 9B

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(ruskinPalms @ Aug. 07 2006,01:24)

QUOTE
Larry,

That thing looks like a huge hair drier! Good luck with that! I hope that it works out for you this winter. I guess you will have the surviving palms the next 22 degree night :laugh:

Bill -

Rather than saying "good luck with it", you should have said "good luck with them"!

I plan to have enough of these on hand to cover my entire yard...just in case.  I currently have 4 of them, but need a few more.

You hit the nail on the head in that I want to have survivors in the event that a nasty night returns.  Its been awhile since such an event......so I wonder if we are due. :(

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Heres a closeup of some temp data when I ran a test with one of these forced air heaters on the side of my house where I have my weather station's temp/humidity sensor.

When do you think the heater was turned on? :D

heater1.gif

This was a test run using a 100,000 Btu/hr firing rate on the heater and with a supplemental box fan 6-7 ft in front of the heater's exit in order to promote air movement.  The temperature reading was taken 19-20 ft downwind of the heater.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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My short term strategy is to buy small species that will be easy to pretect through winter.  My long term strategy is to move somewhere where things won't need protection and I have enough space to choose whatever I want.

]

Corey Lucas-Divers

Dorset, UK

Ave Jul High 72F/22C (91F/33C Max)

Ave Jul Low 52F/11C (45F/7C Min)

Ave Jan High 46F/8C (59F/15C Max)

Ave Jan Low 34F/1C (21F/-6C Min)

Ave Rain 736mm pa

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(ruskinPalms @ Aug. 07 2006,01:20)

QUOTE
As soon as my wife finishes her Master's degree here at USF (go bulls...)

Extremely off topic.  I am a USF bulls fan too.  I lived in Tampa when they played their first game at the old Tampa Stadium (Big Sombrero).  Leavitt has really brought that program a long way...

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Hi Jim,

I'm a USF alum but graduated prior to the football programs inception.  Too bad they didn't have a team sooner.  With the hotbed of football talent down here, the Bulls will contend for a national title in the next 10 years.

Ray

Tampa, Interbay Peninsula, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10A

Bokeelia, Pine Island, Florida, USA

subtropical USDA Zone 10B

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(Ray, Tampa @ Aug. 07 2006,12:40)

QUOTE
Hi Jim,

I'm a USF alum but graduated prior to the football programs inception.  Too bad they didn't have a team sooner.  With the hotbed of football talent down here, the Bulls will contend for a national title in the next 10 years.

Ray

5 years if they keep beating the likes of Louisville and WVU.  They are also supposed to be starting an annual series with UM(iami).

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Long term we'd like to find a place with about 1/2 acre on a south or west facing hillside in the El Sereno/Alhambra/East LA/Highland Park/etc. area close to downtown LA.  Prices are cheap in this area (compared to most of SoCal), there's still quite a few modest homes on large lots that haven't been subdivided, and the climate is the best available within 10 miles of where my wife and I work.  Hopefully this will happen in a couple years...

For now, we have a tiny garden in a slightly worse climate.  I've always treated this garden as an experiment to test what palms will grow well in certain exposures in this climate.  I'm still actively planting palms in this garden, but anything too expensive or difficult to obtain is staying in a pot.  I'm growing a LOT of palms in pots specifically for the next garden, and I'll also probably try to dig up quite a few palms from the ground when we move.

Jack Sayers

East Los Angeles

growing cold tolerant palms halfway between the equator and the arctic circle...

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(spockvr6 @ Aug. 06 2006,20:47)

QUOTE
In my doomsday preparations, I have been adding another barrier (in addition to palm socks) to Ma Nature's wrath...preliminary tests have been good  :D

RLP155-5.jpg

Where'd you get that?  Electric or gas - and don't you have to sit out with it while it's on?  Sorry for the dumb questions, but that looks like a good solution, even down here, in case of another '89.

(OT - you also asked about Wilcox's R. hystrix and I forgot where the thread is.  They have them for $99.00.  Size is 2½-3 feet high by about as wide.)

St. Pete

Zone - a wacked-out place between 9b & 10

Elevation = 44' - not that it does any good

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(SunnyFl @ Aug. 07 2006,17:15)

QUOTE

(spockvr6 @ Aug. 06 2006,20:47)

QUOTE
In my doomsday preparations, I have been adding another barrier (in addition to palm socks) to Ma Nature's wrath...preliminary tests have been good  :D

RLP155-5.jpg

Where'd you get that?  Electric or gas - and don't you have to sit out with it while it's on?  Sorry for the dumb questions, but that looks like a good solution, even down here, in case of another '89.

(OT - you also asked about Wilcox's R. hystrix and I forgot where the thread is.  They have them for $99.00.  Size is 2½-3 feet high by about as wide.)

Sunny -

These forced air heaters are easy to find online.  They are available in either propane or kerosene form.  Mine are all propane for ease of fuel storage.  They also require a 120V power source to run the fan.

They are generally used as construction heaters, but obviously work well wherever a good amount of heat is needed.  Mine are all between 85,000 and 150,000 Btu/hr.  But some of them are adjustable down to 50,000 Btu/hr.   One can get these heaters in HUGE sizes (600,000 Btu/hr is easily available at a semi-reasonable price and million+ Btu/hr outputs for substantially more $), but the fuel consumption rate is ridiculous and the minimum propane tank required just to run them is much bigger than I want to deal with.  I can run all of my heaters off of standard 20 lb BBQ tanks.  (For the higher heat settings, I will parallel two bottles together so as to not freeze the tanks.)

As for their safety, one could theoretcially let them run unattended, but I wouldnt be comfortable doing that.  Im sure I wouldnt sleep a wink.

I also have a plain old convection type propane heater that doesnt need 120V (since theres no fan), but I have found this type to be less effective at spreading the heat around and they dont take well to "fan assist" (by using a supplemental fan to spread the heat) as the flame gets whipped around too much for my liking.  The fan forced units seem better suited to my yard.  But, the convection type would work well if one had a tall grove of palms as the heat coming off the top of this thing is wicked!  It shoots up quickly into the canopies so I can see how a few of these spread around such a planting area would be of good benefit.

Larry 

Palm Harbor, FL 10a / Ft Myers, FL 10b

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Bill,

Sounds like you have a good basic plan; for our area, canopies are a blessing. As Dave stated, the growth of the Oaks will might surprise you. Some good fillers until your canopy thickens are Loquats, Southern Magnolia cultivars and Tabebuias; they all flower, carry tropical-looking foilage, will provide proctective sub-canopies that won't die out when the Oaks spread overhead.

Years ago I started with the same situation. What was once a high, dry, hot and exposed site where even weeds struggled to survive is now a virtual jungle (or appears to be) by planting future canopy-providing plants. And of course lots of water, organic matter and sweat.

(By the way, Jeff is right about Chamaedoreas, I can't give them enough praise. My favorites for this area are C. microspadix, C. metallica and C. elegans, all of them are very cold hardy, seem to laugh at drought and poor soil, and never balk at transplanting. I wish I found faith in these gems a long time ago.)

post-99-1155004571_thumb.jpg

Minneola, Florida

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(elHoagie @ Aug. 07 2006,14:41)

QUOTE
Long term we'd like to find a place with about 1/2 acre on a south or west facing hillside in the El Sereno/Alhambra/East LA/Highland Park/etc. area close to downtown LA.  Prices are cheap in this area (compared to most of SoCal), there's still quite a few modest homes on large lots that haven't been subdivided, and the climate is the best available within 10 miles of where my wife and I work.  Hopefully this will happen in a couple years...

For now, we have a tiny garden in a slightly worse climate.  I've always treated this garden as an experiment to test what palms will grow well in certain exposures in this climate.  I'm still actively planting palms in this garden, but anything too expensive or difficult to obtain is staying in a pot.  I'm growing a LOT of palms in pots specifically for the next garden, and I'll also probably try to dig up quite a few palms from the ground when we move.

Ah, Hoagie!

Find a place like you suggested.

I almost hadda give up my dive to go further into town, and there was NOTHING with any land last year.

Oh, yeah, the view of the towers of Downtown, on a slope, it's the closest thing to heaven, till you get to Hawai'i.

dave

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Doink!

Back up again.

A lot of new people have joined, so I thought I'd wave this in their faces.

dave

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Plan a) I´m waiting for global warming...

If they are right about it, in about 80 years, C. renda will only require

minor protection in my location. What I haven't yet figured out is how

to make me last to 130 years old...

Plan B) Move south. 2000 Km should do it...

Algarve, Portugal

Zone 10.

Mediterranean Climate moderated by the Atlantic Ocean

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Plan B sounds more realistic! :D  How about the Canary Islands? I'm sure Carlo can provide you with a whole bunch of useful info about locations there.

Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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Hey Larry,

I've been thinking about going with your fleece/tarp socks the next time a bad winter hits us (partial credit due to Walt). I was considering making a very large sock that would completely cover my Royal (like I've seen you do with your smaller palms; I don't think you had a full cover over the fronds of your Royal last year). I'm thinking of cutting a hole at the bottom of the sock to connect a dryer vent hose... and you can probably guess where the other end of that hose would go.

Do you or anyone else think that this concept is feasible? Would the heater melt an aluminum dryer hose? Is it just too much heat to pump into an enclosed sock? Maybe a sock with vent holes at the top would keep it from getting too toasty inside? But then again, I'm not sure how toasty it would be with a surrounding temperature in the 30s. I just imagine that pumping heat into the sock would be a nifty solution, and I might even get some good growth from it. (haha) This solution would only be used in extreme cases (like the '89 freeze). I'm pretty sure I'll be fine with using socks only for many years in my location, but I'd like some opinions.

How exactly do you employ your heaters? Do you simply blow heat around the socked palms?

Am I crazy? Feel free to call me crazy.

Manuel Montesino

Cypress Gardens - Winter Haven, FL

The Chain of Lakes City

Avg. High: 84F; Avg. Low: 63F; Avg. Precip: 50 in.

Elevation: 150 ft.

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Back to the topic, I've been thinking of a future scenario for the palms I've been collecting...

My long term strategy is not decided yet.

I've been receiving, buying and germinating a lot more seeds than I can possibly plant in the ground for the future, considering the climatic and soil conditions existing in my small property on the beach.

Sometimes I just can't resist. Right now I'm sitting here surrounded by seeds and seedlings of 22 new species that arrived today, still working with them and researching...and I've just planted in a pot my first carpoxylon, still in jetlag conditions...  

I plan to donate some grown up potted palms to the municipalty, to a public space of a poor fisherman's village 2 km from my house in the beach. For the future, if I could find a nice property bordering a piece of Atlantic forest , with fresh water nearby, at a reasonable price I may consider planting the whole collection in the ground, and maybe a specialized nursery...well, I don't really want to move, do I? How about bringing in some better soil...

post-157-1155693317_thumb.jpg

Sirinhaém beach, 80 Km south of Recife - Brazil

Tropical oceanic climate, latitude 8° S

Temperature extremes: 25 to 31°C

2000 mm average rainfall, dry summers

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