Buta, Jubaea, Parajubaea, Syagrus hybrid seeds wanted

[UK_Palms 1,326]

Hi, first of all I apologise if I am not allowed to post here, or ask about seeds in this thread. I am not an IPS member, although I may join soon. Hopefully this thread does not get removed.

I have been having a nightmare the past few years trying to obtain certain hybrid seeds. It is still very difficult over here in the UK to source certain palms, especially hybrids. There are a number of types I have been looking out for, but I have not been able to get hold of them. For ages they were not available on RarePalmSeeds, then when I did finally manage to order some, the package never arrived. I also finally spotted some Jubaea x Syagrus on the bay, which I promptly ordered, however I was sent regular Jubaea seeds that still have not germinated after 9 months. Likewise, I ordered some mule palm seeds as well but received regular Butia Odorata. Only 1 has germinated so far and it is definitely Butia and not a cross breed with Syagrus. So that is incredibly disappointing. 

Some of the ones I have been trying in vein to get for years now...

- Butia x Jubaea

- Butia x Parajubaea

- Butia x Syagrus Rom AKA 'Butyagrus' (priority)

- Jubaea x Syagrus Rom (priority)

- Jubaea x Butia x Syagrus Rom (Priority)

- Parajubaea x Jubaea

- Any other interesting cold hardy hybrids

If anyone has any seed of these going, or similar type crosses, I will happily pay for them. Or please do point me in the right direction of someone I can get them from. As mentioned, I have had a really hard time sourcing these here in the UK. Due to Brexit, the pandemic and now bans on palm imports, there is now a big palm shortage over here and imports are really difficult. EU countries are required to quarantine palms under strict conditions for at least 2 years before they can be sent to the UK, so many places no longer sell to the UK. So there is a shortage for anything besides Trachycarpus and CIDP. That means I have to go down the seed route, of which my efforts have so far been in vein. Hopefully someone has some of these seeds?

Many thanks, Ben

[Scott W 744]

Just out of curiosity, how does the UK know a plant or seeds are being sent in?  Is every package scanned, x-rayed, opened, etc to determine what's inside?

[UK_Palms 1,326]

27 minutes ago, Scott W said:

Just out of curiosity, how does the UK know a plant or seeds are being sent in?  Is every package scanned, x-rayed, opened, etc to determine what's inside?

So I received seeds from Doomsdave a few months ago and they arrived fine. So I'm guessing they don't scan or x-ray the packages when they arrive in the UK. At least not packages coming from the States. I think it's on the European side that the issue exists. Any palms or seeds they send from the EU to the UK requires a 'plant passport' now, which you have to apply for and get a registration code and paperwork. That's the supplier who has to do that, not the purchaser. It's so over the top and excessive that it puts off European suppliers from supplying the UK.

Any palms that are sent to the UK also require 2 year quarantine, which EU suppliers are not prepared to do. Not when they can just ship them around the EU with ease, without having to quarantine them or get paperwork. But to send them to the UK they need to jump through hoops and go the extra mile. That obviously costs the European suppliers money as well. Even the Dutch palm suppliers have stopped shipping to the UK now. You can probably get seeds sent across, but rare hybrid seeds are not common in Europe. And then they still need a stupid plant passport to leave the EU, despite being seeds. A lot of suppliers won't even send seeds to the UK now. Again this is just an EU issue, not a global issue. 

There is absolutely no chance of getting stuff like Parajubaea or Butyagrus over here now. Even CIDP's and Washies are in short supply again. Most online retailers have sold out and garden centres barely have any stock due to the European import problems. A few years ago a small Trachycarpus Fortunei would cost like £20. Now you will pay at least £50-60. Prices have been inflated due to the demand and lack of supply. In the rare instance that you do find something like a Parajubaea, you will probably pay £500 for what should be a £100 palm. But again, you probably won't even find a Parajubaea. I have been looking for years.

 

[Scott W 744]

Interesting, thanks for the additional info.  I'll message you...

[Ben in Norcal 2,224]

Most of these you will never get in seed form - it's just not good business for proper hybridizers. 

I'd recommend contacting Patric Schafer as he ships plants, but not seeds, internationally - including to the UK.

[UK_Palms 1,326]

21 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Most of these you will never get in seed form - it's just not good business for proper hybridizers. 

I'd recommend contacting Patric Schafer as he ships plants, but not seeds, internationally - including to the UK.

The problem is getting plants into the UK now post-Brexit. The rules tightened in January 2021. Seeds can get across okay still, but live plants supposedly require Phytosanitary certificates and advanced notification/application for import to DEFRA, which is just a massive inconvenience and plain stupid. So importing palm seedlings to the UK from the States, or anywhere else in the world, is going to be a bit risky following January 2021, when these stupid new rules came into effect. It's had a big impact on the palm market over here.

Packages may slip through without necessary docs, but if customs check them and they don't have the Phytosanitary certificate or the pre-arrival application nonsense, I'm pretty sure customs will seize and destroy it. That's why the Dutch suppliers have stopped selling to the UK now. The Phytosanitary certificate and application nonsense is too costly and time consuming for the European suppliers and shipments sent without the required docs have also been impounded by customs and then lost in the system. Total pain in the ass. 

Assuming the US sellers don't go to that effort of getting a Phytosanitary certificate and pre-notifying DEFRA here in the UK (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs), I'm not sure if its really worth me risking like $50-100 of palms, which will probably be 50:50 as to whether they get impounded. Maybe I could get away with some pretty small seedlings that are discretely packed in a small box. Seeds are certainly the least risky, although seeds of the Phoenix genus are technically listed as prohibited unless they have certificate and DEFRA pre-notification. There's so much red tape that it is ridiculous now though. Seeds are definitely my best option.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plant-species-by-import-category/import-requirements-for-plants-plant-produce-and-products

A quote on the government site says "no plants for planting are unregulated. They're either regulated and require pre-notification, or they are prohibited". 

[Ben in Norcal 2,224]

54 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

The problem is getting plants into the UK now post-Brexit. The rules tightened in January 2021. Seeds can get across okay still, but live plants supposedly require Phytosanitary certificates and advanced notification/application for import to DEFRA, which is just a massive inconvenience and plain stupid. So importing palm seedlings to the UK from the States, or anywhere else in the world, is going to be a bit risky following January 2021, when these stupid new rules came into effect. It's had a big impact on the palm market over here.

Packages may slip through without necessary docs, but if customs check them and they don't have the Phytosanitary certificate or the pre-arrival application nonsense, I'm pretty sure customs will seize and destroy it. That's why the Dutch suppliers have stopped selling to the UK now. The Phytosanitary certificate and application nonsense is too costly and time consuming for the European suppliers and shipments sent without the required docs have also been impounded by customs and then lost in the system. Total pain in the ass. 

Assuming the US sellers don't go to that effort of getting a Phytosanitary certificate and pre-notifying DEFRA here in the UK (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs), I'm not sure if its really worth me risking like $50-100 of palms, which will probably be 50:50 as to whether they get impounded. Maybe I could get away with some pretty small seedlings that are discretely packed in a small box. Seeds are certainly the least risky, although seeds of the Phoenix genus are technically listed as prohibited unless they have certificate and DEFRA pre-notification. There's so much red tape that it is ridiculous now though. Seeds are definitely my best option.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/plant-species-by-import-category/import-requirements-for-plants-plant-produce-and-products

A quote on the government site says "no plants for planting are unregulated. They're either regulated and require pre-notification, or they are prohibited". 

Yeah, I get it.  You just aren't going to get seeds for much besides plain old Butiagrus or Butia x Jubaea though.  It makes no sense for sellers...they can only get a tiny fraction of what they would a year down the line.  Most of these hybrids are only done by one or two chaps, who don't ship seeds.  You're going to need to figure out how to get plants in to get most of these, sadly!

[Martin G 0]

Just hijacking this thread Ben, to ask if you had any luck with this request.

 

I am after only butiagrus and jubutia, but cannot get hold of them. Like you, happy with seeds/seedlings

 

Thanks, Martin

[UK_Palms 1,326]

@Martin G Hey man, unfortunately I have had no luck whatsoever on my end. It's almost impossible to get any rare palm here in the UK, unless you go down the seeds route. Most European and international suppliers don't post anything to the UK anymore (since January 2021) and even the UK suppliers have ran out of most things. We're down to the bare bones here. Hardly anything. 

You can still get Trachycarpus Fortunei but they have doubled in price over the past 12 months due to both the demand and lack of availability. The reason you don't see Sabals in southern England is due to the total lack of availability. There is no Sabals being sold here, or getting shipped here. The same goes for most palm species except Trachycarpus Fortunei and Chamaerops. 

If we're lucky, our local Homebase or B&Q will get a delivery of tiny CIDP's or Washies in once a year, usually in the spring. Those then go on to become the London street washies and CIDP's that you see scattered around. Along with Trachy's and Chamaerops that is just about it. A few Butia's and Jubaea's, but you can't really get them now anymore either. Any other types of palms need to be started by seed. I have been looking for stuff and trying to get it for years now to no avail.

I hope you have more success in obtaining those crosses than I have had.