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Why I am reminded of forgetting Washingtonias...


GottmitAlex

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I removed my 5 adult washies five years ago for my coconuts. Believe it or not, washies are high maintenance palms.

 

In my old age I don't plan on climbing washies to maintain them. Too dangerous. I prefer "self cleaning" palms.

5-6 years ago I had to prop a ladder against my washies to "clean" them... Yes, they get full of bats, rats and roaches (among other pests) if left to their own devices.

 

As a side note, the palm in the video seems to be a Washintonia filifera. 

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5 year high 42.2C/108F (07/06/2018)--5 year low 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)--Lowest recent/current winter: 4.6C/40.3F (1/19/2023)

 

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Yep, mine require twice annual visits from the trimmers. Otherwise, the flowers and seeds get in both mine & the neighbors pool.  Still, there's a certain elegance to nicely maintained ones that I've come to appreciate. 

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Bret

 

Coastal canyon area of San Diego

 

"In the shadow of the Cross"

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I think they are worth the trouble of maintaining, especially if they are grown in an appropriate climate where they look their best. If they're not grown in a hot and dry climate, then yeah, I'd remove them too.

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1 hour ago, NorCalWill said:

If they're not grown in a hot and dry climate, then yeah, I'd remove them too.

I have to respectively disagree. They may grow slower over here, but washies don't need a hot and dry climate to look good at all, or to provide that bit of instant impact. New Zealand is a good example of that. And London is really setting the bar now up at 51N in terms of washie zone pushing. I doubt anywhere above 45N can grow washies as good as London. Cutting down any of the London ones would be a travesty! I suppose people in California may look at it differently though, given that they are surrounded by washies on a daily basis. I for one though, love them.

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Barry's Filifera in north London is insane. Picture is 2-3 years old now. I couldn't imagine cutting something so amazing down. And what a garden!

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These are just specimens from the London area alone. I hope the local councils plant thousands of them in the coming years. They look far better than Trachycarpus, which are always tatty and have yellow fronds. I think Washingtonia Filifera esspecially is fast becoming the best palm for London in my opinion. They look amazing and provide that instant impact. Yet in California they are considered 'weeds' nowadays, especially Robusta. People actually rip them out. Although I understand why, with them self-seeding and growing out of every nook and cranny.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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I personally don't mind the skin of washies, Is their a reason to remove them and does the tree benefit from it or is this more appropriate for wetter climates? I remember seeing james palms video about the skin of his palm shedding off so is that the reason so they don't make a mess?

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2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I have to respectively disagree. They may grow slower over here, but washies don't need a hot and dry climate to look good at all, or to provide that bit of instant impact. New Zealand is a good example of that. And London is really setting the bar now up at 51N in terms of washie zone pushing. I doubt anywhere above 45N can grow washies as good as London. Cutting down any of the London ones would be a travesty! I suppose people in California may look at it differently though, given that they are surrounded by washies on a daily basis. I for one though, love them.

Yeah UK, those do look good. Don't get me wrong, I do love W. filifera. It's one of my top 10 favorite palms.  With that said, I've not seen one up in Northern California that looks as good as those grown in the desert, at least in the bay area. I even pulled one out of my garden because the newest 4 or 5 leaves looked good, but the rest were spotty and ratty looking. Are you sure that the palms in your photos are pure filifera? If so, I'm impressed. W. robusta does fine where I live, but filiferas generally don't look as lush and are prone to fungal issues.

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7 minutes ago, NorCalWill said:

Yeah UK, those do look good. Don't get me wrong, I do love W. filifera. It's one of my top 10 favorite palms.  With that said, I've not seen one up in Northern California that looks as good as those grown in the desert, at least in the bay area. I even pulled one out of my garden because the newest 4 or 5 leaves looked good, but the rest were spotty and ratty looking. Are you sure that the palms in your photos are pure filifera? If so, I'm impressed. W. robusta does fine where I live, but filiferas generally don't look as lush and are prone to fungal issues.

It's hard to say. Some of those big ones with fat trunks also have entirely green petiole bases, so I suspect they are pure Filifera's. A lot of them are probably hybrids though. I would say Filifera looking washies probably outnumber the Robusta looking washies about 5 to 1 in London. Most are obviously hybrids, but it does seem that Filifera has an edge on the Robusta's here. Whether that is because more Filifera types are being planted, or because they are surviving cold winters when Robusta's don't, I'm not sure. Probably both factors, to a degree. I can't see those big Filifera's getting knocked out by any amount of cold now. The Robusta's maybe, but not those fat trunk Filifera's. They survived December 2010, our coldest month on record, back when they were only tiny palms, as did some of the Robusta's. So they should take just about anything now.

Maybe northern California gets more annual rainfall perhaps, or has a higher water table? Although you would think that Filifera would still struggle over here at 51N with our wet-cold and gloomy conditions, yet the pictures say otherwise. Only 5 years ago the general consensus in the UK was that Filifera is not hardy or long-term. Robusta was touted as the better option for the UK. I'm not sure if that stacks up today. The pictures say otherwise. I've attached another from London that looks pure Filifera. Probably 25ft+. If any of these London washies get cut down now, I would be absolutely furious. I even cringe when I hear that ones in CA have been ripped out. Different perspectives I guess. Our ones here will never look as good as the ones in CA, but I would never want to see them cut down. The more the merrier. The London washies look far better than the Trachys. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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when they get truly tall they will be at least $500 apiece to trim with a bucket truck.  Phoenix arizona has many dozens of filifera with 25-30+' clear trunk.  They are magnificent but they are expensive to maintain if you trim off the beards, which are very hazadarous for those underneath.  I recall that tree trimmers have been killed when a beard falls off spontaneously.  This is where they look like expensive palms, even compared with my copernicia fallaensis which is initially expensive but self sheds to a smooth trunk.  What palms really cost is not just about the initial outlay.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I have always looked down on Washingtonias for years and cringed every time I saw them planted.

I talked to a landscaper who had a truckload of newly dug ones and he told me he had bought the wrong palms. Apparently he was supposed to get sabals and the business owner refused the Washingtonians. So I quickly realized I could get these palms installed very cheaply since he needed to do something with them. I now have 7 mature Washingtonia robustas and I have to admit I really like them. If you fertilize them properly they’ll hold a huge canopy of leaves and that’s how I prefer them. So far my lawn care provider has had no problem removing the brown fronds. I figure by the time they get too tall the wind should help them self clean.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/28/2021 at 11:04 AM, NorCalWill said:

I think they are worth the trouble of maintaining, especially if they are grown in an appropriate climate where they look their best. If they're not grown in a hot and dry climate, then yeah, I'd remove them too.

I too have to disagree with this.   If you are talking just Filifera, sure.as they are straight up desert palms.    Robustas do amazing in tropical climates as evidenced by their proliferation in tropical and subtropical places like FL.   They get VERY TALL here, and usually look fantastic! 

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After 10 years my neighbors 35-40' filibusta has cost him more overall than my installed 10' copernicia fallaensis which sheds itself.  As time goes by it will only get more expensive each trim while my fallaensis costs nothing to trim.  Same would be true of a big sabal like causiarum, they self shed when mature. Those london filiferas are the nicest I've seen outside the southwest desert.  When I look at where they are planted, seems like they do best(fattest trunks, best crowns) when the root zones are mostly concrete covered.  Some of those trunks have inches from trunk to concrete.  Not sure why this is but in the above pics, the best are planted in very restrictive concrete settings which should limit wetting of roots.  Perhaps the root zones dont really stay wet continually since they are under an umbrella of concrete with good drainage under the concrete?

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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On 7/28/2021 at 2:26 PM, NorCalWill said:

Yeah UK, those do look good. Don't get me wrong, I do love W. filifera. It's one of my top 10 favorite palms.  With that said, I've not seen one up in Northern California that looks as good as those grown in the desert, at least in the bay area. I even pulled one out of my garden because the newest 4 or 5 leaves looked good, but the rest were spotty and ratty looking. Are you sure that the palms in your photos are pure filifera? If so, I'm impressed. W. robusta does fine where I live, but filiferas generally don't look as lush and are prone to fungal issues.

My belief is the ratty and spotty frons on the Filifera are from the Fog/moist air and they do not like that. I'm 800 miles away in the dry hot desert and make the commute a few times a year to the bay area. My Filifera are bright green with only wind burn on the frons as I drive to the cost I see them turn ratty and the trunks almost like a grey from rain water.  Now for the Robusta I see them lush and green from the desert to the cost and they seem to deal with moister in the air better.  

The Filifer is from the dry hot desert. I have a natural Oasis one mile from my home - The Thousand Palms Oasis and it never rains here ever.

The robusta is from the costal area of Sonora so nature made them better for the wetter area.

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22 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Those london filiferas are the nicest I've seen outside the southwest desert.  When I look at where they are planted, seems like they do best(fattest trunks, best crowns) when the root zones are mostly concrete covered.  Some of those trunks have inches from trunk to concrete.  Not sure why this is but in the above pics, the best are planted in very restrictive concrete settings which should limit wetting of roots.  Perhaps the root zones dont really stay wet continually since they are under an umbrella of concrete with good drainage under the concrete?

I have never really considered that to be honest, although it would probably make sense. The concrete medium probably does provide a barrier to the water and offers good drainage. It probably is a factor in why the Filifera’s in London front yards look pretty good and healthy, although it is hard to say how much of a role that does play. You would think the wet-cold would still effect the crowns to a degree?

There are two Filifera’s planted out at Battersea Park in London, which are right out in the open with no concrete nearby. These two had awful transplants about a decade ago, being planted with pretty much no roots at all and then dug up again a second time and replanted, but not properly stabilised. Consequently they leant over and were never repositioned, so they have grown at an angle. Although they were stunted initially, they are still growing okay now, despite being out in the open and not having a concrete medium around the roots.

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Your concrete theory probably does make sense though. It must benefit the Filifera’s and hybrids in regards to drainage. Here is the big New Malden one in southwest London. Having visited it, I can confirm that this one is not actually a pure Filifera, but still incredibly Filifera dominant. 

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Surprise surprise, the trunk is pretty much growing through concrete…

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This was planted in the dirt by the fence as a tiny little palm back around 2007.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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I like those UK washies Ben, though the ones out in the open look tortured, hard to tell.  Cold and wet crowns arent going to be a problem for filiferas as their native ground in arizona is at ~3000-4500 ft and it gets snow there as well as cold.  ONe desert palm I tried to grow here, Brahea armata used to spot up with mold in the wet cool season.  I never saw that in a washie so perhaps they are more adaptible as  desert palm.  I also have onlly red about root rot in wet winters being the main reason for washies dying off in some southwest places where they normally thrive.  London?  You guys are writing the story there.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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I have the opposite experience in Amsterdam. My filifera’s show traces of wet and cold on the fronds, sometimes browning completely. My armata looks perfect yearround, no spots whatsoever. The fronds are much hardier in our wet cold winters.

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54 minutes ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

I have the opposite experience in Amsterdam. My filifera’s show traces of wet and cold on the fronds, sometimes browning completely. My armata looks perfect yearround, no spots whatsoever. The fronds are much hardier in our wet cold winters.

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Same here.

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@sonoranfans Yeah those two Filifera's in Battersea Park had the worst transplants of any London palms that I know of. They have been brutalised, starting with the initial transplant where they were roughly planted into unamended soil, only to be dug up again a few months later and then replanted with literally zero root mass. They should have been supported adequately as well, or repositioned when they tilted over. So a proper botched job, especially on the roots when they were dug up. No wonder those Filifera's totally defoliated and took about 2 years to get going again. They have probably trebled in size over the past 10 years or so though. Given our less than ideal weather here too, those Filifera's are clearly pretty resilient palms.

Here'a another Filifera just east of London in Thorpe Bay, Essex The picture is a few years old now and it is at least 20 foot tall now. Maybe 25 foot.

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My experience is similar to @Axel Amsterdam and @Chester B in that Filifera can get spotting in winter, whereas Brahea Armata does not here. Brahea Armata actually does very well here and although it grows slowly, it does not really take any winter damage. Smaller washies in general can struggle a bit and look a bit ratty during their early years, but as soon as they bulk up and start trunking properly the washies seem to become much hardier, not taking winter damage, looking better and growing quicker. Filifera especially. Smaller ones have been killed on Canvey Island by 15F, when the bigger ones were virtually undamaged. The same with CIDP on Canvey. So age and size is everything, especially outside of central London and the immediate south coast.

Talking of Canvey Island, here is the Brahea Armata that is growing there. It has probably trebled in size over the past decade, since being planted. Brahea Armata's don't really seem to take winter damage in southern England. Or in the Netherlands by the looks of things. They can get a bit wind damaged on the coast, or in stormy years, but they generally remain damage free in London and further inland areas that get less wind. Provisional testing in recent years suggest they may be as hardy as, if not hardier than Chamaerops Humilis here and potentially the second toughest inland palm after Trachycarpus Fortunei. There's a lot of decent sized ones popping up in further inland regions of southern and central England. 

The Canvey Brahea Armata has gone from this in 2009...

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To this now...

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These ones are in London...

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Kensal House gardens in Ladbroke Grove, London...

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Southsea Brahea Armata's which are on the coast, hence the wind damage...

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Connaught Gardens, Devon

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Axel, do you know the locations of the Fareham and Dorset Armata's in southern England? The latter is owned by Daniel, I believe. Here are the pictures of them.

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There's quite a few Armata's growing over here in southern and central England. Just like the CIDP and washies, I suspect more and more Brahea's will be popping up in the coming years. It's unfortunate we have only really had access to them over the past 10-20 years. They were more or less impossible to get hold of before the year 2000 here. The same with Washingtonia. Hence why we are playing catch up over here now. Plus the palms in general grow slower here too, but they do survive and grow.

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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On 7/28/2021 at 3:55 AM, GottmitAlex said:

I removed my 5 adult washies five years ago for my coconuts. Believe it or not, washies are high maintenance palms.

 

In my old age I don't plan on climbing washies to maintain them. Too dangerous. I prefer "self cleaning" palms.

5-6 years ago I had to prop a ladder against my washies to "clean" them... Yes, they get full of bats, rats and roaches (among other pests) if left to their own devices.

 

As a side note, the palm in the video seems to be a Washintonia filifera. 

If you want them to be sure. or you can just leave them to get that skirt look. 

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