Shade Area Suggestions Needed

[Breaktheory]

Hi all...

I’m in Agoura Hills (LA suburb that’s hotter than most)

I have a shady area in my backyard - it gets about 3-4 hours of morning sun and then is shaded the rest of the day.  

The soil is pretty rocky and has a lot of roots from adjacent trees and there’s creeping fig all over the place

It’s also in the 90s most of the summer but usually doesn’t drop lower than 45 or so in winter.

Any suggestions on what to use to give this strip a tropical facelift?

 

Thanks much!

[Steve Mac]

Most of the Chamaedorea will probably work I think, as long as you kept it damp enough and with a bit of mulch. 

A lot of them are small and would fit there easily, but I don't know which ones suit your climate best

[Breaktheory]

2 hours ago, Steve Mac said:

Most of the Chamaedorea will probably work I think, as long as you kept it damp enough and with a bit of mulch. 

A lot of them are small and would fit there easily, but I don't know which ones suit your climate best

Those are a good look and I think would nice to fill in the space between what I hope to be some thicker trunk species...

One more thing I forgot to mention is that there are large sections of thick creeping fig roots in the soil (pic below)

Do these need to be removed (killing the creeping fig) or can I plant palms around them?

 

[iDesign]

To me, COLOR and VARIETY is what makes an area extra-tropical, so I would probably do something like this (another quick & dirty Photoshop mockup)...

If you can fit it, I would put a colorful (but not overly large) palm in there... In my mockup I used a "purple king" (which grows much slower than a common king), and I've heard the purple shows best in shade. Or maybe a Bentinckia condapanna (very tropical and do surprisingly well in CA).

Then put an extra-large bromeliad - or similar near the ground (I'm showing a Julietta bromeliad, which would look great, though wouldn't be quite as red in shade).

Backrow would be great for chamaedorea if there's room... Tepejelote LOVES shade, but I have my personal favorite (costaracana) in this mockup.

Maybe add some ginger and more bromeliads or other colorful smaller plants.

Ti's, though common are also wonderful for adding a tropical look. Burgandy is most common, but I also use a alot of purple/black Ti's in my yard. You might even try Yellow Dracanea (grows year round outside in my area, as long as I give it shade).

For groundcover ideally include a bit of purple or red. Most of my yard uses a burgandy/yellow/light green/purple color palette. My personal rule is to try to not put two things of the same color next to each other, though with green you can put dark green next to light green. 

Again, doesn't matter so much which specific plants you use...  just make sure to include lots of variety in heights, leaf type and color.

As for your question on roots, that's better for one for the palm experts, but definitely give growing space for any palms you plant. Bromeliads would be great for other areas though in that they DON'T need root space. I often sprinkle bromeliads on top of places that already have a lot of action happening in the ground (one of the reason I'm a fan). Their roots don't go very deep and they don't seem to care much about other plants crowding their roots.

Hope that helps!

[iDesign]

This URL had the following photo showing how much you can accomplish in a thin planter - http://www.marriedtoplants.com/tours/palm-society-of-southern-california-may-garden-tour/

Tons of other inspirational photos on that page. For me at least, since I favor highly manicured gardens with lots of color.

This might be a nice area to include some of your more rare "baby palms" too. I know it's hard to put a baby palm in your front yard, but if you plan to stay in your home many years, try to include a few rare plants. Sure, they'll just look like a bush now, but only get better over time.

Edited July 27, 2021 by idesign123

[Breaktheory]

12 hours ago, idesign123 said:

To me, COLOR and VARIETY is what makes an area extra-tropical, so I would probably do something like this (another quick & dirty Photoshop mockup)...

If you can fit it, I would put a colorful (but not overly large) palm in there... In my mockup I used a "purple king" (which grows much slower than a common king), and I've heard the purple shows best in shade. Or maybe a Bentinckia condapanna (very tropical and do surprisingly well in CA).

Then put an extra-large bromeliad - or similar near the ground (I'm showing a Julietta bromeliad, which would look great, though wouldn't be quite as red in shade).

Backrow would be great for chamaedorea if there's room... Tepejelote LOVES shade, but I have my personal favorite (costaracana) in this mockup.

Maybe add some ginger and more bromeliads or other colorful smaller plants.

Ti's, though common are also wonderful for adding a tropical look. Burgandy is most common, but I also use a alot of purple/black Ti's in my yard. You might even try Yellow Dracanea (grows year round outside in my area, as long as I give it shade).

For groundcover ideally include a bit of purple or red. Most of my yard uses a burgandy/yellow/light green/purple color palette. My personal rule is to try to not put two things of the same color next to each other, though with green you can put dark green next to light green. 

Again, doesn't matter so much which specific plants you use...  just make sure to include lots of variety in heights, leaf type and color.

As for your question on roots, that's better for one for the palm experts, but definitely give growing space for any palms you plant. Bromeliads would be great for other areas though in that they DON'T need root space. I often sprinkle bromeliads on top of places that already have a lot of action happening in the ground (one of the reason I'm a fan). Their roots don't go very deep and they don't seem to care much about other plants crowding their roots.

Hope that helps!

Another awesome mock-up - thanks for this!

I love the purple king and chamaedorea

[sonoranfans]

purple king and chambeyronia macrocarpa will be more intense in color in limited sunlight.

[Breaktheory]

53 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

purple king and chambeyronia macrocarpa will be more intense in color in limited sunlight.

Love it - How will they do in my climate? It’s shaded but it does get up to 100 in the summer and down to 40 in winter 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Breaktheory

[sonoranfans]

Just now, Breaktheory said:

Love it - How will they do in my climate? It’s shaded but it does get up to 100 in the summer and down to 40 in winter 

Dooms Davehas a few nearby in whittier you so I think they will do ok.  They like water and can take hear, we get 95 here every year

[iDesign]

14 minutes ago, Breaktheory said:

Love it - How will they do in my climate? It’s shaded but it does get up to 100 in the summer and down to 40 in winter 

Here's a thread that might be helpful in your decision... the poster (from Huntington Beach CA) said it got over 100 degrees at times, and he was experimenting with putting them in full sun. Sounds like they would have preferred some shade, but seem to have done ok. My sister is trying some now in a hot microclimate. I personally have 6 (including one in full sun). One of my very favorite palms.

 

 

[iDesign]

Here's a list of recommendations for your yard (based on what I know about palm sun tolerance in California). Do double-check my recommendations with an expert though. I've been doing TONS of study, but am still relatively new. But this list might be a good place to start:

I would put the following on my "must have" list...
- Chambeyronia Macrocarpa (Flamethrower, I have six! Can also be found at larger sizes)
- Dypsis leptochilos (Teddy Bear, does great in CA, and can take full sun in many areas. Have to start small, but worth it).
- Archontophoenix purpurea (Purple King, Slower than traditional king, and nice purple crownshaft when a boot drops)

For variety, I recommend also getting a thin-trunk clumping type...
- Dypsis lutesens (usually called Areca palm) is easy to find, and pretty hardy. Consider thinning out the trunks as they grow for a more "open" look.
- Dypsis onilahensis (either upright or weepy) is said to be surprisingly sun tolerant
- Dypsis lafamazanga is my personal favorite of the "clumping" ones (a relatively new one that is proving to be quite hardy, and very colorful). 
- Dypsis pembana - Fast growing and gets very tall. I recently planted one to block a neighbor view. Can also consider the similar Dypsis lanceolata, though those aren't quite as sun tolerant.

For bamboo palms (usually on a back row, with smaller plants in front)...
- Chamaedorea costaricana is my personal favorite (and can take a *little* sun)
- Chamaedorea radicalis might be your best best though, as it can take tons of sun. These can also be found in large sizes.

Others I would consider for you are...
- Rhopalostylis (shaving brush) - Large ones are often available
- Beccariophonix alfredii - Toughest of this type, huge and gorgeous when mature; give it space.
- Bentinckia condapanna (one of my favorites, and does surprisingly well in CA... but not sure on heat level. Worth checking into though).

Many of these can only be found at a small size, so one strategy would be to buy a couple cheap palms for now, with the intention of cutting them down at some point in the future (sounds terrible, but it's a great strategy for instant gratification, but amazing yard later).

Possible "Instant Gratification" palms (to add to the mix)...
- Caryota gigas/obtusa ("Fishtail") grows fast, provides a lot of shade, and can take tons of sun. But they only live 15-30 years, so plant it in a place where you can easily remove it later.
- King Palm grows amazingly fast, and doesn't have to be removed later as it's self-cleaning. Very common, but could be fine in a yard that has other more tropical options. I personally like these MUCH better than Queen palms, which are messy, require constant trimming and always look sickly.
- Kentia palm (Howea fosteriana) is very common, but they're pretty enough they get a pass. Or you could be slightly different and plant its cousin the Sentry palm (Howea belmoreana). Both of these are available at larger sizes.
- Royal palm grows fast, but need to think carefully about the falling frond danger. But if you have an appropriate spot they're stunning.

And a couple non-palms...
- Ficus dammaropsis - Amazingly large leaves, fast-growing and other-worldly. Can take a lot of heat.
- Queen emma lily - Quite large and loves sun
- Sun Tolerant bromeliads - Search palmtalk for "easy sun tolerant bromeliads"

Just more suggestions for you!

* I'm guessing you found this already, but make sure to check any palms you're considering in the "Palms for California" website - http://www.palmpedia.net/palmsforcal/Main_Page (extremely helpful resource for those of us in Southern CA). If still not sure, you can then search the Palmtalk forum. Between those two I've been able to find everything I need to start my palm collection. Happy buying!

Edited July 27, 2021 by idesign123

[iDesign]

Can’t decide between the purple king and flamethrower? Do both!

I seem to recall hearing this was from Doomsdave’s yard (this one shows the “hookeri” variation)...



Have we talked you out of the Queen Palms yet? So many more interesting choices out there if you’re patient. And these two are common enough you might be able to find them in a larger size.
 

[Breaktheory]

1 hour ago, idesign123 said:

Can’t decide between the purple king and flamethrower? Do both!

I seem to recall hearing this was from Doomsdave’s yard (this one shows the “hookeri” variation)...



Have we talked you out of the Queen Palms yet? So many more interesting choices out there if you’re patient. And these two are common enough you might be able to find them in a larger size.
 

 

Yes I’ve moved on from the yard full of Queens idea! Thanks for all the great suggestions 

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, idesign123 said:

Can’t decide between the purple king and flamethrower? Do both!

I seem to recall hearing this was from Doomsdave’s yard (this one shows the “hookeri” variation)...



Have we talked you out of the Queen Palms yet? So many more interesting choices out there if you’re patient. And these two are common enough you might be able to find them in a larger size.
 

 

That's mine, thought it's much taller now.

[DoomsDave]

@Breaktheory I think it's a good idea to get rid of the Ficus repens first. The roots are very very invasive.

If you don't, most plants will fail for too much competition.

[Breaktheory]

8 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

@Breaktheory I think it's a good idea to get rid of the Ficus repens first. The roots are very very invasive.

If you don't, most plants will fail for too much competition.

@DoomsDave

It’s a real problem and I do have a hard time planting anything in this section of the yard.

pix below will show that the ficus repens has overtaken much of that area and even has crept into the nearby camphor and ficus nitida trees.

That creeping fig also forms my privacy hedge for a good 80 feet unfortunately so I’d hate to lose it - is there a way to keep both?

If I were to dig a large enough hole possibly with some sort of root barrier would new palms survive?

 

[DoomsDave]

21 minutes ago, Breaktheory said:

@DoomsDave

It’s a real problem and I do have a hard time planting anything in this section of the yard.

pix below will show that the ficus repens has overtaken much of that area and even has crept into the nearby camphor and ficus nitida trees.

That creeping fig also forms my privacy hedge for a good 80 feet unfortunately so I’d hate to lose it - is there a way to keep both?

If I were to dig a large enough hole possibly with some sort of root barrier would new palms survive?

 

Getting rid of it is your first order of business. Completely. If you don't, you'll just throw money away. Ficus repens can be very very aggressive. I've seen it engulf buildings and suck the life out of soil.

I'm fighting another Armageddon Plant of Doom in my backyard, and it's tough. Be prepared for a long brawl; I can offer suggestions if you'd like.

You'll want another privacy hedge, but the ficus is not compatible with much. Maybe get a picture of the whole area, plus the area on the other side, if you can. I'll suggest other things. You may also want to consider a wall or fence instead; they won't have invasive roots, though there's maintenance issues.

[Breaktheory]

2 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

@Breaktheory I think it's a good idea to get rid of the Ficus repens first. The roots are very very invasive.

If you don't, most plants will fail for too much competition.

@DoomsDave

Thanks for the info I couldn’t figure out why things had such a hard time growing...I’ll take a photo when I get home 

I also have large ficus nitida trees about 10 feet from an area I want to plant in - will I have the same issues with the nitida and a palm coexisting 10 feet apart?

[DoomsDave]

27 minutes ago, Breaktheory said:

@DoomsDave

Thanks for the info I couldn’t figure out why things had such a hard time growing...I’ll take a photo when I get home 

I also have large ficus nitida trees about 10 feet from an area I want to plant in - will I have the same issues with the nitida and a palm coexisting 10 feet apart?

If you want to have a nice garden with something other than F. repens, get rid of it. Be prepared for a brawl. Get in there with laborers to cut as much out as possible, then paint stumps with Brush-B-Gon, Roundup or both, straight and undiluted, heavy artillery.

[Breaktheory]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

If you want to have a nice garden with something other than F. repens, get rid of it. Be prepared for a brawl. Get in there with laborers to cut as much out as possible, then paint stumps with Brush-B-Gon, Roundup or both, straight and undiluted, heavy artillery.

The repens and the Nitida both?

[DoomsDave]

50 minutes ago, Breaktheory said:

The repens and the Nitida both?

Repens for sure, nitida, too. The roots are SO aggressive.

[Kim]

@Breaktheory -- That's some really beautiful stone work you have with your wall.

[Breaktheory]

11 minutes ago, Kim said:

@Breaktheory -- That's some really beautiful stone work you have with your wall.

Thanks! We inherited this all from the last owners including the various ficus 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Breaktheory

[Breaktheory]

@DoomsDave

Here is a shot from backyard and the other side from street.

The creeping fig is 75% of the plant life in my yard and it creates a nice hedge but nothing else will grow...I think all the other plants and trees were put in before the fig.

What do you suggest as a replacement hedge?

[DoomsDave]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:32 PM, Kim said:

@Breaktheory -- That's some really beautiful stone work you have with your wall.

 

On 7/28/2021 at 6:44 PM, Breaktheory said:

Thanks! We inherited this all from the last owners including the various ficus 

I was so intent on murder-coaching I missed Kim’s note of another reason - Ficus roots wreck masonry. I mean, like King Kong on steroids.

[DoomsDave]

12 minutes ago, Breaktheory said:

@DoomsDave

Here is a shot from backyard and the other side from street.

The creeping fig is 75% of the plant life in my yard and it creates a nice hedge but nothing else will grow...I think all the other plants and trees were put in before the fig.

What do you suggest as a replacement hedge?

There’s many plants you can use as basic trimmed or semi trimmed hedges, all have good and bad points. There’s other plants like bamboo that can make nice visual barrier ps. There’s even palms that work for that, like Rhapis and Arenga engleri, both of which I have.

Take the time to look for yourself. 

Come visit! I’ll give you a no holds barred tutorial on what to avoid, in my opinion anyway.

Here’s some Rhapis multifida.

Is there a wall under there?

[Breaktheory]

@DoomsDave I’m dying to come check out the jungle and would love that advice!

There is a wall behind the creeping fig (covered in roots)

That Rhapis is massive - what an amazing “hedge”