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Merlyn

Palms and cycads tolerant of random temporary lakes?

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Merlyn

In the front yard I have a new planting area, roughly 25' x 30', and I re-graded the soil so it slopes consistently away from the house.  This was done because our torrential rainstorms can easily drop an inch of rain in about 10 minutes.  The front of the house basically drains into two downspouts, one of which is at the corner below shown with the red down arrow.  This spills out into the front yard and drains mostly down towards the driveway and diagonally to the bottom right.  I planted a Licuala Peltata v. Sumawongii up near the tall Cannas, and an Archontophoenix Alexandrae just to the left of the bananas at the downspout.  I planted a "Jesse Durko" variegated bamboo near the driveway (at the "corner" where the arrow turns towards the bottom right) and a pair of Attalea Cohune in the bottom right.  There are a few "not planted" items in the middle, a pair of agave Desmettiana, a ponytail triple, and a potted Chamaerops.  Those will go elsewhere. 

The issue is that the entire front yard occasionally turns into a lake.  It drains fast, but it had standing/running water across it for a couple of hours last night while we got 3.5 inches of rain.  So I figured that whatever I plant here should be "water tolerant" or "loves water" like an Archontophoenix.  And it probably shouldn't be something like a Brahea Clara that would prefer to be very dry.  I have a few candidates:

Arenga: Caudata, Engleri, Hookeriana, Pinnata

Allagoptera: Arenaria, Caudescens

Archontophoenix: Cunninghamiana, Alexandrae, Maxima, Tuckeri

Dypsis: Cabadae, Leptocheilos, Pembana, Lanceolata, Madagascariensis

Copernicia: Baileyana, Fallaensis, Hospita, Macroglossa, Prunifera

Caryota: Urens, Mitis

Kentiopsis Oliviformis

Livistona: (Saribus) Rodundifolia, Speciosa, Saribus

Beccariophoenix Alfredii (small seedlings)

Pinanga Coronata/Kuhlii

Ptychosperma Schefferi

Sabal Mauritiiformis

Are there any from the above list that you would NOT put there?  Clearly the Archies would be happy, and Eric said that his Livistona Saribus were super happy in wet mucky areas at Leu Gardens.  Or do you have any other suggestions not on my above list?  Here's the photo for reference:

1856380863_P1080535frontyard.thumb.JPG.db54debb21d5c7cb543255ac79676b25.JPG

 

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kinzyjr

@Merlyn Any of the Archontophoenix should work, water-wise.  You might want to stick with something other than alexandrae if the area gets a lot of frost, though.

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Brad52

I have a similar thread elsewhere here and got lots of suggestions if you can find it 

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Merlyn
47 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@Merlyn Any of the Archontophoenix should work, water-wise.  You might want to stick with something other than alexandrae if the area gets a lot of frost, though.

The front yard is about 3 degrees warmer than the backyard on cold fronts, which I didn't know until I bought a 5 zone datalogger.  So Hyophorbes in the back yard were 100% defoliated with 28F and frost, and a couple in the front saw frost but at barely under freezing.  The front is probably the safest in-ground spot for marginal palms.  

@Brad52 I found your thread and need to read through it, thanks!

 

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kinzyjr

@Merlyn In that case, Archontophoenix alexandrae, Archontophoenix purpurea, and Kentiopsis oliviformis it is. :)

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Merlyn

@kinzyjr I had my smaller potted K.O. out there last week, but wasn't sure about the excess water.  I can plant a banana to the West side as PM sun shade for the summer, if you think it'll tolerate the occasional inch deep of standing/running water.  My bigger K.O. in the backyard from Fisheyeaquaculture didn't even blink at 28F with frost and later 31F with heavy frost.  

In Brad's thread I saw Copernicia Prunifera, Licuala Paludosa, and Euturpe Oleracea mentioned.  I wonder if Euturpe Edulis would tolerate it?

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kinzyjr
2 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@kinzyjr I had my smaller potted K.O. out there last week, but wasn't sure about the excess water.  I can plant a banana to the West side as PM sun shade for the summer, if you think it'll tolerate the occasional inch deep of standing/running water.  My bigger K.O. in the backyard from Fisheyeaquaculture didn't even blink at 28F with frost and later 31F with heavy frost.  

In Brad's thread I saw Copernicia Prunifera, Licuala Paludosa, and Euturpe Oleracea mentioned.  I wonder if Euturpe Edulis would tolerate it?

Good questions and observations all the way around.  I have my Kentiopsis oliviformis under canopy in a sloped, but damper part of the yard.  If you are worried it might be too much, you could consider putting the bananas there and digging their planting area about 6 inches lower than the near-by Kentiopsis (or anything else).  This way, the bananas will hold the bulk of the water, and any excess will quickly head to the root zone of the palm instead of sitting around the stem.  My Euterpe edulis 'Orange Crownshaft' tends to like moisture in motion, so it is also planted on a lightly sloped slice of paradise.

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ahosey01

I don’t know about TPPD in your area, but most Phoenix except acaulis, pusilla and caespitosa, to my knowledge, are down for standing water.  I flood irrigate my dactylifera like 4x a week.  Maybe dactylifera is a bad look in your climate, but P. loureiroi is a favorite of mine.

Also maybe a variegated Sabal palmetto or 5…. @FishEyeAquaculture is selling some currently.

Also I just realized that was the second time he was mentioned in this thread.

Edited by ahosey01
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ahosey01

Double post but also there are some really incredible dwarf Baldcypress cultivars that would also do well in that spot and would serve the function of the bananas you’re describing.  Western shade in the summer, leaves gone in the winter.  Would also give your tropical garden a hint of fall color.  Not everyone’s jam, I acknowledge, but worth a mention.

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D Palm

I don’t know what the documentation is on Bismarck, but I have 1 that sits in almost a foot of water at times during the rain season. It looks way beefier, silver, just more happy overall than the other 2 in my yard that are not in swamp conditions. If you have the yard room for it to stretch and grab plenty of sun I would consider.  I’m also starting to think the wetter conditions may help it pull thru the frosts better during winter too.

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Merlyn
7 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

I don’t know about TPPD in your area, but most Phoenix except acaulis, pusilla and caespitosa, to my knowledge, are down for standing water.  I flood irrigate my dactylifera like 4x a week.  Maybe dactylifera is a bad look in your climate, but P. loureiroi is a favorite of mine.

I do have a Phoenix Theophrasti-ish hybrid in a 10g pot, I had to yank it out of the ground to make way for the new septic drainfield this spring.  It's been sitting in a pot in my "tropical bed" that gets drenched with sprayers-on-a-stick every morning, and seems to like it so far!  It used to be in a very high-and-dry area, maybe that's why it just languished?

I'm not too enthusiastic about bald cypress, but I do also have Ficus Auriculata, Lyrata and Benghalensis.  And I picked up a 3' tall Pandanus Utilis red-edge from Lukas this spring.  I think that's a water-loving Pandanus, so it might be happy there too.

@D Palm I do have a Bismarck in the front, it's just off to the left of the photo.  I planted it in my tropical bed with the daily drenching, and it has grown from 3g to 15' tall in 3 years.  It seems fine with huge amounts of water, but I probably don't want to put another one up front.

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Merlyn

I looked through @Brad52's thread on palms with wet feet, and many of them were definitely no-go in zone 9B/9A borderline.  I'd love a Nypa Fruticans, but nope!  :D  Some other suggestions are Licuala Paludosa (or Aurantiaca), Licuala Ramsayi, which would probably make great shorter or understory palms in the future.

It looks like Kentiopsis Oliviformis is a pretty wet-tolerant species too, so that may make a great addition to the front.

Does anyone have any info on the various Dypsis types?  I have plantable sizes of Cabadae, Lanceolata, Leptocheilos and Pembana.  And I was thinking of doing a Floribunda order to buy Albofarinosa, Ambositrae, Baronii, Carlsmithii, and Onilahensis "weepy."  If they'd be happy there, something like a Cabadae would be a neat clustering palm to go along with a couple of Livistona (Saribus) Rotundifolia or Livistona Saribus or Speciosa.

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sonoranfans

D. pembana loves water, no problem.  And its almost as hardy as Kentiopsis O.  Lanceolata and Cabadae are marginal at best in cold tolerance, maybe 30F.   My Leptocheilos has been fine in a water collecting area, but the soil does drain well, rarely is it flooded for more than 3-4 hrs even after we got 11" in one day this year it drained in 4-5 hrs.  Be careful of your dypsis choices, many of them are not going to like florida's humidity.  D. Baroni for one is likely to be sickly palm at best here.  I had (2) ambositrae, they didn't like it at all in my wet backyard.  I cannot speak of personal knowledge for the other dypsis you mentioned, but I did the same thing years ago, bought a bunch of dypsis sp from hawaii.  Many were just not going to adapt here.  How about Pseudophoenix sargentii var navissano?  If you can find one(or preferably 2), they are a nice color variation from many other palms, dark green foliage with bluish waxy tint, and unlike the regular sargenti, they grow pretty fast and have nice ring spacing on the trunk.

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ruskinPalms

Ravenea rivularis? I have a couple planted in areas like that in my back yard and they are doing well. Or even R. regia if that’s not too big for that spot. 

Edited by ruskinPalms
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Merlyn
34 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

D. pembana loves water, no problem.  And its almost as hardy as Kentiopsis O.  Lanceolata and Cabadae are marginal at best in cold tolerance, maybe 30F.   My Leptocheilos has been fine in a water collecting area, but the soil does drain well, rarely is it flooded for more than 3-4 hrs even after we got 11" in one day this year it drained in 4-5 hrs.  Be careful of your dypsis choices, many of them are not going to like florida's humidity.  D. Baroni for one is likely to be sickly palm at best here.  I had (2) ambositrae, they didn't like it at all in my wet backyard.  I cannot speak of personal knowledge for the other dypsis you mentioned, but I did the same thing years ago, bought a bunch of dypsis sp from hawaii.  Many were just not going to adapt here.  How about Pseudophoenix sargentii var navissano?  If you can find one(or preferably 2), they are a nice color variation from many other palms, dark green foliage with bluish waxy tint, and unlike the regular sargenti, they grow pretty fast and have nice ring spacing on the trunk.

Thanks for the great Dypsis info!  My ~15' Pembana did ok at 28F and frost, with only burn on the top fronds.  The 5' tall K.O. in the backyard took no damage, so that looks like a definite for the wet area up front.  Pembana sounds like a good choice too, since the front yard is warmer than the back yard.  I have a Leptocheilos double in the front "high and dry" area, and have been consistent growers but slow.  Maybe these would be happier in the wetter area.

I read the same thing about Ambositrae and Baronii, but also read that they were growing fine at Leu Gardens and took minimal damage during the 2009 29F extended cold snap.  I need to go by there and find them, to see how they are growing now.  I'm guessing they are located near the 30' tall Dypsis Pembana, but I don't recall seeing them in that area. 

I do have a pair of Pseudophoenix Sargentii, but I am not sure what type they are.  I bought them from ChuckG last summer, but the tag was disintegrating and we couldn't tell what the "v. xxxxxxx" said.  I have one in the back center and was planning on putting the second in the cold spot in the SE corner.  But it could go up front near the driveway too.  I'll have to get a decent photo to see if anyone can tell which type they are.

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sonoranfans
15 hours ago, Merlyn said:

Thanks for the great Dypsis info!  My ~15' Pembana did ok at 28F and frost, with only burn on the top fronds.  The 5' tall K.O. in the backyard took no damage, so that looks like a definite for the wet area up front.  Pembana sounds like a good choice too, since the front yard is warmer than the back yard.  I have a Leptocheilos double in the front "high and dry" area, and have been consistent growers but slow.  Maybe these would be happier in the wetter area.

I read the same thing about Ambositrae and Baronii, but also read that they were growing fine at Leu Gardens and took minimal damage during the 2009 29F extended cold snap.  I need to go by there and find them, to see how they are growing now.  I'm guessing they are located near the 30' tall Dypsis Pembana, but I don't recall seeing them in that area. 

I do have a pair of Pseudophoenix Sargentii, but I am not sure what type they are.  I bought them from ChuckG last summer, but the tag was disintegrating and we couldn't tell what the "v. xxxxxxx" said.  I have one in the back center and was planning on putting the second in the cold spot in the SE corner.  But it could go up front near the driveway too.  I'll have to get a decent photo to see if anyone can tell which type they are.

Leu Gardens is going to get results that are the best case scenario in many cases.  I respect their experience, but Im not sure what growing fine means.  My ambositrae(true ambositrae) were slow and in a "kentiopsis wet spot".   The lower leaves got mold spot nd it was only able to carry 3 leaves.  One got sear pull and died, the other "stayed alive" but in decline for 3-4 years before I decided to remove it.  I suspect it didn't belong near a wet area, but also I have not heard of anyone outside leu gardens reporting to be able to grow a decent one here in florida.  The teddy wants more water I think, its planted high so it will drain.  I mulched mine more and it seemed to pick up in speed, 1-2 extra leaves a year.  My small( 5 gal size in the ground) pembana all (3), had spear pull in 2010 from 28F plus heavy frost then 29F plus light frost consecutively, my small kentiopsis had an undamaged spear but was otherwise defoliated similar to my teddy at the same size.  Of course palm size is a big factor in radiative frost events, its colder near the ground.  Generally they report at 4-6', down at 3-5" it will be colder.  The buds of my kentiopsis are all way off the ground now(6-20').  When planting a small palm there will always be a window where they are more susceptible due to small mass and being lower to the ground(in radiative cold).  I thought pembana was not a good palm after al 3 had spear pull nd one died after aggressive peroxide/daconil treatments.  They came back fast from the 2018 burn, I am no longer worried about them here in terms of cold tolerance.

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Merlyn

I added most of the "big" palms this weekend, and ran out of mulch.  I needed about 3 more wheelbarrows full, that's the neverending story of my life.  :D  On the left at the "streambed" I put in an Archontophoenix Alexandrae (closer to the house) and a Kentiopsis Oliviformis (middle left).  Both have some PM shade from temporary dwarf Cavendish bananas, I'll yank those out when they can tolerate full afternoon sun.  Between the two bananas is a Ficus Auriculata, if you squint you can see the big oval leaves.  Just in front of the foreground dwarf Cav is the "Jesse Durko" variegated bamboo, and to the left is a small Gaussia Princeps triple and a suspected Diannanensis x (Rev x Tait) hybrid that Ed Brown made many years ago. 

In the center near the house is a Bambusa Vulgaris Vittata "Hawaiian Gold," then a Livistona Speciosa (from Leu's plant sale a few years ago) and a pair of Dypsis Leptocheilos.  The front center edge is an Allagoptera Arenaria, one of my favorite small(er) palms. 

On the right edge of the house is an Arenga Engleri single that I had planted a while back, a Beaucarnea Revoluta (Ponytail) triple, a Livistona Fulva (kinda hiding from view), and an Attalea Cohune double in the bottom right foreground.  A single, triple, and single Gaussia Princeps round out the front edge.  Behind the transplanted Queen Emma crinum is a 10' tall Encephalartos Ituriensis.  To the right of the Queen Emma is a claimed Butia x Jubaea, but it's more likely just a Butia.  Behind the Ituriensis is a Dendrocalamus Brandisii Black.  I moved an 8' tall Dypsis Decaryi from the corner of the house over just to the back right of the Ituriensis, but you can't really see it here.

2065312209_P1080546frontyard2.thumb.JPG.f3608dca43bd8974598045c18c5af073.JPG

And this is how I figure out spacing on palms, AutoCAD to the rescue! 

48278255_FrontyardAutoCAD.jpg.9c53197a38de1add860c7d0343717bde.jpg

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