All about Agaves

[teddytn]

@Merlyn understood. Sometimes cross breading can bring out unexpected results with plants even the same batch of seeds can be highly variable, but I think you’re right, not likely a hybrid would be more cold tolerant than both parents. After seeing that they plant all their agaves mounded in berms of sand and grit and do protect them during the winter may make some of their results misleading. Wouldn’t say a plant is 100% rock solid for any locale unless it was planted in the local soil and left to its own devices over winter. I’ve got it narrowed down to about 12 worth trying planted here. Obviously no guarantees lol

[Paradise Found]

With my christmas money I am getting Agave Salmiana var. Ferox Medio picta variegated.  Anyone now the hardiness on this one?

Most say 15F but San Marco says 0F - 10F. I am thinking maybe in a dry winter area it might be 7b? But seem to good to be true. 

[Merlyn]

@teddytn yeah, and some do well in cold and wet, and others do not.  I can't keep Asperrima alive here in Floriduh in ground or in a pot, they just get root rot no matter what I try.  However some known Asperrima/Gentryi/Americana hybrids do fine here.

[teddytn]

8 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@teddytn yeah, and some do well in cold and wet, and others do not.  I can't keep Asperrima alive here in Floriduh in ground or in a pot, they just get root rot no matter what I try.  However some known Asperrima/Gentryi/Americana hybrids do fine here.

That’s crazy even in pots you have trouble. You think just the humidity gives them trouble in Florida? You said a while back you’ve tried utahensis a few times and the just melt there? I understand that now for sure. I have 2 potted, 1 I brought in beginning of October, a few weeks back I gave it a spritz of water and almost instantly the leaves spotted….

[Merlyn]

@teddytnI suspect it was just the constant daily afternoon thunderstorms.  They'd seem to grow ok for a little while, then by August would start losing older leaves really fast.  When I dug them up there were no roots, just a mess of blackened stubs.  They aren't really a "pot sized" plant, so I just took them to my parent's place near Austin.  The same thing happens with Parryi and Parrasana here, though they seem to do "okay" in super-draining soil in pots.  I'm still hopeful with the Parryi v. "JC Raulston" in the ground, so far it's been in the ground only 4 months but seems good so far!

[Meangreen94z]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:21 PM, Merlyn said:

Americana is an 8B plant, nominally 15F.  I suppose hybrids could be hardier, but there are not many 5F hardy agaves.  I am not sure if Protoamericana is hardier, but Asperrima (the other half of the theorized hybrid) is good to 10F.  A couple of 1 to 5 foot diameter Asperrima survived Palmageddon just West of Austin at my parent's place.  It was below 10F for a couple of days there, with one day with a high of 8F...

There’s different localities of standard Asperimma in Mexico/South Texas, the common one growing in Central Texas will take sub zero temperatures. It was a wet/icy 3*F both nights in February where I’m at and most of the Asperimma didn’t even burn or barely burned. Agave Ovatifolia is another one that basically took no damage. Neomexicana and Havardiana aren’t as common but did well. There’s a Salmiana type agave common here that took minimal damage. Proto-Americana is variable here but most burned heavily, but survived. Half of them flowered in the spring as a response to the damage though. Agave Bracteosa is another one that seemingly took no damage. There’s several forms of Lopantha here but the long leaf green form did well.

I know its an uncommon hybrid but I left my “Bluebell Giant” from PDN out. Basically no damage other than creasing from the weight of the ice. You should give an offset to your parents.

[Meangreen94z]

20 hours ago, teddytn said:

That’s crazy even in pots you have trouble. You think just the humidity gives them trouble in Florida? You said a while back you’ve tried utahensis a few times and the just melt there? I understand that now for sure. I have 2 potted, 1 I brought in beginning of October, a few weeks back I gave it a spritz of water and almost instantly the leaves spotted….

Yeah Asperimma didn’t do well in Houston either. They need an area that receives less than 40” of annual rain, lots of sun, and great draining soil. Houston and most of Florida are 50-60”+ annual rain. Austin averages around 36” and they do great here, as a reference.

Anywhere that receives more than 20-25” annual rain is too much for any form of Utahensis. Don’t waste your money. 

[Merlyn]

@Meangreen94z yeah my parents had 4 locally sourced Asperrima with essentially no damage.  Manfreda "Chocolate Chips" was also undamaged, and an unknown locally sourced Asperrima/Americana/Gentryi/whatever hybrid.  A 3' diameter Salmiana "Jaws-ish" hybrid survived the frost but died over the summer from crown rot.  I think my mom planted it too deep, the remains were sitting in a 6-10" deep bowl.  One offset popped up over the fall, so it'll survive if they don't get another Palmageddon.  Their 5' diameter Ovatifolia looks pristine.

Stuff that died but survived with baby offsets: Angustifolia/Vivipara Marginata (3 separate plantings), Titanota "White Ice," Parryi Truncata, a few variegated Americanas, and a couple of unknown Aloes.

Undamaged stuff: Yucca Aloifolia (amazingly enough, but under canopy), Yucca Rostrata, an unknown Yucca (maybe Decipiens, Glauca, etc), several Asperrima.

Stuff that died: several Lamb's Ear, a small Octopus/Vilmoriniana, small Crazy Horse and small Mr. Ripple. 

[Paradise Found]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:17 AM, teddytn said:

For wet winters the species that are supposed to handle it the best are agave montana, agave ovatifolia, and agave parryi jc raulston. Any others worth a try?

Here is one to try called Agave salmiana, this is a hardy agave and it gets big. 6' tall x 10' wide.  Hardy to 7b.  Tolerates watering in summer and no water in winter or very little.  Say under 40" yearly. 

Here is one in WA state.  not my photo.  this one is very big for pnw 6' x 8'.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Paradise Found

[teddytn]

4 hours ago, Paradise Found said:

Here is one to try called Agave salmiana, this is a hardy agave and it gets big. 6' tall x 10' wide.  Hardy to 7b.  Tolerates watering in summer and no water in winter or very little.  Say under 40" yearly. 

Here is one in WA state.  not my photo.  this one is very big for pnw 6' x 8'.

That looks awesome. Thanks for the suggestion! 

[teddytn]

Agave toumeyana var. bella. Super cool, the white markings on the leaves look like they’re painted on. Agave Americana varigata. Pup I got from a friend. Interested to watch the growth rate of Americana compared to all my cold hardy species. 

[Silas_Sancona]

..A little Holiday gift to myself :  Now,  Let's see who can ID it ( Excluding @teddytn  ..You already have a clue, haha )  To others, 'Yall have the rest of today/ this evening..

Needless to say, this near- native Agave has been on the White Whale list for quite sometime..  While it might not be an exact replica, ( we'll see how much it changes, if it does, as it grows ) this is one of those sp. that makes anyone drool, and start down the rabbit hole of trying to find a specimen when they have seen it. That said, it isn't as widely distributed in cultivation as it should be.. Supposedly fairly hardy too ..Definitely tolerates full sun here.

Doesn't get massive, but isn't tiny either ...and possesses a color that is hard to duplicate and readily stands out in a landscape.. 

Again, we'll have to see how close to the drool- worthy specimens it ends up, but regardless, is the same species ..err, variant of the species..   Enough clues? 

Nice sized plant, very well packaged ( I'll have plenty of peanuts, lol )  Always appreciate hand written tags ( turned over on purpose )..The sticker ( also turned over, on purpose, lol ) is a rare, and sweet " Chef's Kiss " addition.  ..Thought about this, for later, too.      ..All i'll say is if the grower hangs out here so often, ..Well done




Dressed to the 9's ..well 3's, lol  in it's ( 3gal ) pot, for now..  Raahks / gritty soil planted in may be native, but offer up additional clues of where this guy originates.. ( similar geology there )




...Go fish!

[JeskiM]

Hmm, well, I actually have two guesses, but it wouldn't be fair so I'll put forth my 1st guess:

What is Agave Cerulata ?

-- Matt

[Silas_Sancona]

22 minutes ago, JeskiM said:

Hmm, well, I actually have two guesses, but it wouldn't be fair so I'll put forth my 1st guess:

What is Agave Cerulata ?

-- Matt

...Hot..  haha

[Paradise Found]

What is ..  Agave Cerulata spp. dentiens ?

[Silas_Sancona]

28 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

What is ..  Agave Cerulata spp. dentiens ?

   Who told you?, haha 

Future question is now..  How closely my specimen, seed- collected on Isla Angel De La Guarda ( Baja ) by a well respected Agave geek, resemble the specimen below as it matures.. 







Even if mine hangs onto a few tiny teeth as it grows, i'm good with it..

Edited December 23, 2021 by Silas_Sancona
edit

[Paradise Found]

33 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

What is ..  Agave Cerulata spp. dentiens ?

I figured it out on my own by the clues you left and Matt gave the biggest clue with his answer, LOL!

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, Paradise Found said:

I figured it out on my own by the clues you left and Matt gave the biggest clue with his answer, LOL!

True  true..

[teddytn]

33 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

   Who told you?, haha 

Future question is now..  How closely my specimen, seed- collected on Isla Angel De La Guarda ( Baja ) by a well respected Agave geek, resemble the specimen below as it matures.. 







Even if mine hangs onto a few tiny teeth as it grows, i'm good with it..

Wow wow, not the width, but the thickness of the leaves in the second picture!!! That’s a cool one for sure 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, teddytn said:

Wow wow, not the width, but the thickness of the leaves in the second picture!!! That’s a cool one for sure 

Pictures don't do the DBG specimen(s) justice.. and yes, doesn't get massive.. and those leaves resemble a Yucca, ..to some degree at least, more than many Agave.. Anyway,  

Many people, inc. myself have approached those in the know at DBG inquiring about why they haven't yet released  pups to certain growers to get it into wider circulation.. Going by the response i got, and have heard others received also when asked ( pretty frosty.. Not the first time i got such a response when inquiring about various plants either ),  i guess they think keeping it / other uncommon stuff locked up in their displays is good enough. 

Is one reason i haven't been there in years...  " Let's promote the conservation of Agave, Cacti, etc ..but only offer a small selection of plants, ..mostly things you can find anywhere / everywhere else ".  Plant sales are only worth attending because growers from Tucson will bring up interesting stuff. 

Garden itself has gone too much in the " Wine and Dine the Scottsdale crowd "  direction, rather than the opposite,  ..unlike Boyce, and Tohono Chul, where you'll often find unusual stuff where they offer plants for sale on a daily basis, much more often than in DBG's tiny retail greenhouse space in the gift shop,  imo.

Boyce, and Tohono Chul are also much cheaper to enter as well..  DBG is about as pricey as the Desert Museum, ..just without any animals / other attractions, incredible surrounding terrain.. or the Huntington, minus all the other awesome gardens they have to drool over while walking.  Only thing DBG does the others don't, as far as i am aware, is have a " Community day ' ..typically the 2nd Tuesday of each month, where admission is free..  Always attracts huge  crowds.

[JeskiM]

Glad I helped with the clue,  LOL !

I just repotted my ssp Cerulata two weeks ago.  This is one very attractive species with leaves that are nearly silver.  Enjoy that plant !

-- Matt

[teddytn]

1 minute ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Pictures don't do the DBG specimen(s) justice.. and yes, doesn't get massive.. and those leaves resemble a Yucca, ..to some degree at least, more than many Agave.. Anyway,  

Many people, inc. myself have approached those in the know at DBG inquiring about why they haven't yet released  pups to certain growers to get it into wider circulation.. Going by the response i got, and have heard others received also when asked ( pretty frosty.. Not the first time i got such a response when inquiring about various plants either ),  i guess they think keeping it / other uncommon stuff locked up in their displays is good enough. 

Is one reason i haven't been there in years...  " Let's promote the conservation of Agave, Cacti, etc ..but only offer a small selection of plants, ..mostly things you can find anywhere / everywhere else ".  Plant sales are only worth attending because growers from Tucson will bring up interesting stuff. 

Garden itself has gone too much in the " Wine and Dine the Scottsdale crowd "  direction, rather than the opposite,  ..unlike Boyce, and Tohono Chul, where you'll often find unusual stuff where they offer plants for sale on a daily basis, much more often than in DBG's tiny retail greenhouse space in the gift shop,  imo.

Boyce, and Tohono Chul are also much cheaper to enter as well..  DBG is about as pricey as the Desert Museum, ..just without any animals / other attractions, incredible surrounding terrain.. or the Huntington, minus all the other awesome gardens they have to drool over while walking.  Only thing DBG does the others don't, as far as i am aware, is have a " Community day ' ..typically the 2nd Tuesday of each month, where admission is free..  Always attracts huge  crowds.

PDN has the exact opposite mantra, get plants out to everyone and everywhere. Cultivated plants now are being introduced back into the wild in certain cases to help repopulate. Seems backwards to hoard specimens away from everyone else, people make a living slinging plants but it wouldn’t break some ones bank getting them out there. If someone was ever to make a killing on a rare agave for instance it would only be because they were first to market and could set their price, sure fine, but still get the plants out there for everyone 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, teddytn said:

PDN has the exact opposite mantra, get plants out to everyone and everywhere. Cultivated plants now are being introduced back into the wild in certain cases to help repopulate. Seems backwards to hoard specimens away from everyone else, people make a living slinging plants but it wouldn’t break some ones bank getting them out there. If someone was ever to make a killing on a rare agave for instance it would only be because they were first to market and could set their price, sure fine, but still get the plants out there for everyone 

As far as i am aware, DBG does to reintroduction related things, but yes, lol they have stuff that should be promoted much more ..to a wider audience..  Never understood any garden that hoards plants that have been in their collection long enough to prove they do well in X area, and haven't shown the slightest tendency to become aggressive / invasive if propagated for sale.

When i first visited AZ,  years ago, my first plant sale -anywhere- here was a DBG related event.. At that time, i found some rare stuff in the  " plants from the garden " section ( wasn't actually called that fyi )..

The guy who does all things Eucalyptus / Australian plants was also there offering up lots of interesting things.. Even came across some Brahea sp. for sale..

After moving here and attending another a couple other sales, the " plants from the garden " ..or whatever you'd call it..  section was a single table of somewhat sad  .. " Cart of Sorrow " as @Palmarum coined it, looking plants.  Guy i mentioned who sells stuff from Australia wasn't there, and 99% of the non - cacti / succulent  plants offered were the same stuff you could find in any nursery here. 

Go to sales put on by Boyce, or T. Chul Park ( ..or Desert Museum's annual fall sale < Wish they'd host a spring sale.. but what do i know,  lol.. > ) and you'll find a much wider selection of things, ..some common, many rare ..or at least fairly uncommon / unique   ..and you'll often find new things / connect with hard to reach / more obscure vendors. 

Notice a big difference in attitude toward those who inquire about plants ( for sale or in the garden ) too.. While getting frosty feedback at DBG,  people i have spoken w/ at Boyce are much more pleasant.  Last time i was Tohono Chul, i spent 20 minutes or so talking plants w/ a garden volunteer who'd just moved to the area from Minnesota. Looked through pictures she'd taken from Catalina State Park of what was flowering there this summer while talking about the garden and Tucson in general. Great conversation..  When i have called down there looking for plants, most of the people that responded were conversation -worthy as well  ..even if they didn't have what i was hoping to track down.  We'll see if their new hire as propagation supervisor is as good as the guy who retired awhile back.. Better not turn their nursery / greenhouse into an extension of 25 other " carries just the common stuff / what Martha Stewart types think is " in style atm "  kind of place ..err!, haha..

Anyway, i guess all i'm saying is while DBG is definitely worth a visit,  whether you return,  after visiting other gardens here,  is a bigger question..  and i wouldn't blame anyone who chose not to  ..or only returned occasionally. 

[Silas_Sancona]

57 minutes ago, JeskiM said:

Glad I helped with the clue,  LOL !

I just repotted my ssp Cerulata two weeks ago.  This is one very attractive species with leaves that are nearly silver.  Enjoy that plant !

-- Matt

It is.. Just glad someone went down there to collect seed and can now get this handsome devil into more gardens / personal collections.

[teddytn]

So excited to see how this one looks in a few years. Agave ovaticata ( ovatifolia x parryi truncata ) Agave parryi, gonna stay in a pot this year, little guy.Agave lophantha, gonna give this a shot in the ground here. I pulled 11 pups off it before I potted it up. If it croaks first winter so be it, I’ve got 2 pups potted as backup.Agave montana, one of my favorite agaves. Was looking on inaturalist at @Silas_Sancona‘s recommendation. First plant I typed in was montana, the pics of mature specimens are almost unbelievable, kept thinking if someone fell on one, death would be inevitable. 

[Merlyn]

@teddytn I bought several unique ones from Hidden Agave too.  I have Magnifica and Ovaticata in the ground this fall.  In pots I have Titanota/Oteroi "Green Bull," TiMarg (Titanota x Margaritae) and ShawIst (Shawii x Isthmensis).  I'm going to get BFI (Blue Flame x Isthmensis) and KristPot (Kristenii x Potatorum) when he has them back in stock.

[teddytn]

16 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@teddytn I bought several unique ones from Hidden Agave too.  I have Magnifica and Ovaticata in the ground this fall.  In pots I have Titanota/Oteroi "Green Bull," TiMarg (Titanota x Margaritae) and ShawIst (Shawii x Isthmensis).  I'm going to get BFI (Blue Flame x Isthmensis) and KristPot (Kristenii x Potatorum) when he has them back in stock.

He has an unbelievable collection of agaves that will come straight to your door. I’ve scoured the internet and haven’t seen a collection like that. I’m honestly surprised he’s not sold out of everything. The green bull and BFI look like they shouldn’t exist lol. The colors and spination that came out in most of the hybrids is wonderful. I’m tempted to get some more to just keep in pots. Tiho, Coho, and Tbg something about the darker colored leaves and almost black spines catches my eye. And then the Istparr, and Kristpot for the gentryi jaws like teeth on them!!! Might have to start a potted collection honestly 

[Meangreen94z]

25 minutes ago, teddytn said:

He has an unbelievable collection of agaves that will come straight to your door. I’ve scoured the internet and haven’t seen a collection like that. I’m honestly surprised he’s not sold out of everything. The green bull and BFI look like they shouldn’t exist lol. The colors and spination that came out in most of the hybrids is wonderful. I’m tempted to get some more to just keep in pots. Tiho, Coho, and Tbg something about the darker colored leaves and almost black spines catches my eye. And then the Istparr, and Kristpot for the gentryi jaws like teeth on them!!! Might have to start a potted collection honestly 

You can try emailing him on availability. Sometimes he has agave that show sold out, and other times agave that aren’t even listed. I think most of his sales are wholesale to nurseries, the website just supplements that.

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

You can try emailing him on availability. Sometimes he has agave that show sold out, and other times agave that aren’t even listed. I think most of his sales are wholesale to nurseries, the website just supplements that.

I’ve talked to him through email a few times. Man honestly that never occurred to me to ask about other species.to get a species I’m looking for I’ll take whatever I can get and be happy.  Seems you buy quite a bit of mail order plants also. Idk if you would agree, but he has the most well grown agaves I’ve ever bought. Not even the size, the two parryi-truncata I got aren’t that big, but every agave I’ve got from him feels like it’s made out of concrete. 

[Meangreen94z]

7 hours ago, teddytn said:

I’ve talked to him through email a few times. Man honestly that never occurred to me to ask about other species.to get a species I’m looking for I’ll take whatever I can get and be happy.  Seems you buy quite a bit of mail order plants also. Idk if you would agree, but he has the most well grown agaves I’ve ever bought. Not even the size, the two parryi-truncata I got aren’t that big, but every agave I’ve got from him feels like it’s made out of concrete. 

Yes, his agave are very well grown. The San Diego Area climate helps. That and the time he has spent collecting seed from specimen level plants. I had debated on the Ovatifolia/ Parryi Truncata hybrid off and on, but may give in while it’s still available. 

[Merlyn]

23 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I had debated on the Ovatifolia/ Parryi Truncata hybrid off and on, but may give in while it’s still available. 

I debated a while, because Parryi do horrible for me here in the summer.  Only the HBG version seems to tolerate the constant rain in the ground.  Ovatifolia does great, so I decided it was worth a shot.

[RyManUtah]

Stumbled upon a good deal on this Agave parviflora so I brought it home 

[teddytn]

Have had really good growth with a bunch of different potted agave. Potted them all in a mix of pea gravel and coarse sand, around 2:1, no organic material and a little bit of slow release granular fertilizer. The key has been frequent watering. Once a week or every other week. Trying to mimic the conditions I have in the works for this new gravel berm I’m going to plant outside. So far they’ve proven to respond well to frequent watering with perfect drainage. 

[teddytn]

Far enough along in the year to say all the agaves survived their first winter in the ground. All got covered with a plastic bin with holes drilled at the top. A. Gentryi jaws took some damage to the older leaves. All the newer growth looks untouched so still highly questionable if it would survive totally unprotected…we’ll see. All of them feel like they’re made out of concrete now, definitely a good sign. Both ovatifolia’ are untouched Both Montana's grew over winter, pushed out those sun grown gnarly looking leaves. Have a touch of purple on the old leaves. Both parryi truncata grew over winter, this one took a spot of damage on the back right leaf.Overall full success 

[teddytn]

On 11/30/2021 at 9:05 PM, Paradise Found said:

With my christmas money I am getting Agave Salmiana var. Ferox Medio picta variegated.  Anyone now the hardiness on this one?

Most say 15F but San Marco says 0F - 10F. I am thinking maybe in a dry winter area it might be 7b? But seem to good to be true. 

Some species surprised me with their hardiness ratings like salmiana, lophantha, some of the Americana hybrids. You end up getting a new salmiana? 

[Meangreen94z]

A few random Agave in my yard that weathered 18°F over the winter in ground.

Agave ovatifoliaAgave ‘Desert Love’ hybrid from PDNAgave ‘Blue Rapture’ Ovatifolia x Flexispina from PDNAnother younger form of ovatifoliaAgave ‘Miquihuana Silver’ from Yuccado Nursery. An undescribed Agave from Mexico

[Silas_Sancona]

Agave montana for sale today. Saw a bunch of others at a different place as well.

[Merlyn]

I haven't done a complete inventory yet, but 24-25F with frost did a number on some of the more delicate types.  My Magnifica from Hidden Agave is mush, and several others like a "Desert Diamond" Potatorum are dead on the main growing point...but growing offsets.  "Jaws" took some serious damage but hopefully will survive.  The stuff in the front yard at 27-28F is mostly okay.

[teddytn]

16 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Agave montana for sale today. Saw a bunch of others at a different place as well.

You obviously bought the whole tray…

[teddytn]

41 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

I haven't done a complete inventory yet, but 24-25F with frost did a number on some of the more delicate types.  My Magnifica from Hidden Agave is mush, and several others like a "Desert Diamond" Potatorum are dead on the main growing point...but growing offsets.  "Jaws" took some serious damage but hopefully will survive.  The stuff in the front yard at 27-28F is mostly okay.

That’s what I think will be more of the case here with no protection, going to be some damage for sure on every species for the cold/ wet combo they’ll get. Hoping a few will shine and do a few plantings with those species where some didn’t make it. 
Crazy jaws took damage there?!? Normal gentryi is supposed to tough as nails right?