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Jesse PNW

Are Hybrid Palmate Species Possible?

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Jesse PNW

When you look for hybrid palms, all kinds of pinnate genus' seem possible to hybridize.  Butias, Jubaeas, Parajubaeas, Syagrus, Lytocaryum, all mixed together.  I'm sure there are more inter-species hybrids in existence that I'm unaware of.  

But when it comes to palmate hybrids, I've only ever seen intra-species hybrids.  Trachycarpus fortunei x wagnerianus.  Sabal minor x palmetto.  Washingtonia robusta x filifera (those are the only examples I can think of, off-hand).  Would it be possible to hybridize different genus's of palmate palms?  I'm going to take artistic liberty and list some of the genus's that I think would be cool to play with (most in this list are quite cold hardy);

Solitary, tall:

Livistona x Sabal  

Trachycarpus x Thrinax  

Trachycarpus x Sabal

Washingtonia x Livistona

Washingtonia x Sabal

Suckering and/or understory/shade-lover:

Rhapidophyllum x Rhapis

Sabal minor x Trachycarpus

Chamaerops x Rhapidophyllum

Chamaerops x Rhapis 

Trachycarpus x Rhapidophyllum

I know there's a lot of science here that I don't understand.  But a lot of scientific discoveries have also come from simple cave-man ideas executed by uneducated simpletons.  I wish I had mature specimens of these palms to experiment myself.  

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atlamtapalms

It just so happens many palmate palms don’t share the same family sub tribe and cannot hybridize due to genetics. Just an unfortunate fact.

The popular pinnate hybrids are in the same sub family tribe:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arecaceae_genera

Edited by atlamtapalms
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Fusca
9 hours ago, Jesse PNW said:

When you look for hybrid palms, all kinds of pinnate genus' seem possible to hybridize.  Butias, Jubaeas, Parajubaeas, Syagrus, Lytocaryum, all mixed together.  I'm sure there are more inter-species hybrids in existence that I'm unaware of.  

But when it comes to palmate hybrids, I've only ever seen intra-species hybrids.  Trachycarpus fortunei x wagnerianus.  Sabal minor x palmetto.  Washingtonia robusta x filifera (those are the only examples I can think of, off-hand).  Would it be possible to hybridize different genus's of palmate palms?

The only palmate hybrid that I am aware of between different genera is Zombia antillarum and Coccothrinax sp. which are very similar and neither very cold hardy (I think both are zone 9b palms).  I have seedlings of other palmate hybrids that you may not be familiar with.  Brahea armata x B. brandegeei, Livistona mariae x L. decora and Copernicia macroglossa x C. hospita.  I understand Copernicia and particularly Coccothrinax hybridize fairly easily within the genus.

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Swolte

I saved this pic of a phylogenetic tree that Kinzyjr once found. Gives an impression of what may or may not be possible to hybridize. 
:)

Phylogenetic-tree-of-the-palms-Arecaceae-with-generic-level-sampling-based-on-the.png

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Jesse PNW

That is an awesome graphic Swolte.  Thank you. 

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LeonardHolmes
3 hours ago, Swolte said:

I saved this pic of a phylogenetic tree that Kinzyjr once found. Gives an impression of what may or may not be possible to hybridize. 
:)

 

So Trachycarpus and Rhapidophyllum could hybridize?  Super-hardy windmill palms?

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Jesse PNW

That graphic really explains a lot.  I totally see the similarities between Chamaerops and R hystrix, for example.  

Trachycarpus x acoelorrhaphe wrightii would be really cool.   Rhapis x R hystrix would be great.    Caryota x Arenga (Arenga engleri fronds remind me of C mitis or urens).   Crossing Baccariophoenix with Butia or Jubaea hybrids would be cool.  

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Matt N- Dallas

Brahea brandegeei x brahea edulis makes a nice hybrid.  

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LeonardHolmes

My windmill palms bloom earlier than my needle palms.  I imagine that having different bloom times would make it difficult to pollinate one with the other.  Do the palms that are often hybridized like Jubaea and Butia flower at the same time?

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Chester B

Needles and trachys can’t hybridize - too far apart genetically. For the record my needles and trachys flowering overlap. Trachys start first though. 

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LeonardHolmes
10 hours ago, Chester B said:

Needles and trachys can’t hybridize - too far apart genetically. For the record my needles and trachys flowering overlap. Trachys start first though. 

They are close on this scale, but no star.  Is that what the stars mean on this chart?

 

Screen Shot 2021-06-05 at 12.52.45 PM.png

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howfam
On 6/4/2021 at 2:08 AM, Jesse PNW said:

When you look for hybrid palms, all kinds of pinnate genus' seem possible to hybridize.  Butias, Jubaeas, Parajubaeas, Syagrus, Lytocaryum, all mixed together.  I'm sure there are more inter-species hybrids in existence that I'm unaware of.  

But when it comes to palmate hybrids, I've only ever seen intra-species hybrids.  Trachycarpus fortunei x wagnerianus.  Sabal minor x palmetto.  Washingtonia robusta x filifera (those are the only examples I can think of, off-hand).  Would it be possible to hybridize different genus's of palmate palms?  I'm going to take artistic liberty and list some of the genus's that I think would be cool to play with (most in this list are quite cold hardy);

Solitary, tall:

Livistona x Sabal  

Trachycarpus x Thrinax  

Trachycarpus x Sabal

Washingtonia x Livistona

Washingtonia x Sabal

Suckering and/or understory/shade-lover:

Rhapidophyllum x Rhapis

Sabal minor x Trachycarpus

Chamaerops x Rhapidophyllum

Chamaerops x Rhapis 

Trachycarpus x Rhapidophyllum

I know there's a lot of science here that I don't understand.  But a lot of scientific discoveries have also come from simple cave-man ideas executed by uneducated simpletons.  I wish I had mature specimens of these palms to experiment myself.  

I'd like to see Brahea armata x Washingtonia robusta. If the blue color comes through, it would be a nice cold hardy, humidity tolerant blue fan palm.

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JLM
8 hours ago, howfam said:

I'd like to see Brahea armata x Washingtonia robusta. If the blue color comes through, it would be a nice cold hardy, humidity tolerant blue fan palm.

And would probably have a low-fast growth speed depending on how much of each parent shows through.

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Joe NC
On 6/4/2021 at 8:14 PM, Jesse PNW said:

 Rhapis x R hystrix would be great.

I've tried this a couple of times!  Never had any seed set.

Female Rhapis excelsa,  pollen from needle.   The seed size between the two is pretty different, might work better with a Needle as the female (bigger space for embryo?).

I had to find the last opening male needle flowers in the yard to pollinate the Rhapis which generally flowers later for me.  I might try and save some needle pollen and try again this year?

 

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Cikas
On 6/5/2021 at 8:02 AM, Chester B said:

Needles and trachys can’t hybridize - too far apart genetically. For the record my needles and trachys flowering overlap. Trachys start first though. 

Actually according to that map they are very close genetically. Trachycarpus is closest relative to Needles. 

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teddytn

If anyone makes a Frankenstein palm, I want one

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Jesse PNW

Seems like C humilis and R hystrix are very similar in a lot of ways. 

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