Perilous Dates...

[Silas_Sancona]

No, lol not the kind of dates one might find at a bar.. though perhaps a sort of analogy

As mentioned while adding pictures of Saguaro observed there earlieer, spent a cooler than average morning yesterday exploring a canyon near Boyce Thompson, which wraps around the north face of Picketpost Mountain out in the mountains east of the Valley.  Had been on the " target list " when out in the same area this past Monday but cut this leg of that trip short. Yesterday was potentially the last opportunity to head out there until Fall, when i'll likely not be here. Anyway,

Surveying Google maps of the Canyon awhile back, noted a few Date palms growing in the canyon about half way between the Picketpost access trailhead to the west, and where public access of  Arnett Canyon is limited further to the east.  Part of the planned visit last week was to try and find / photograph those potential specimens.  While i didn't quite make it to those visible on Google Maps ( turned back less than .05 of a mile short of where those specimens were located ) did find several others nearby ..and had my second " meeting " with a very dangerous native reptile. 

Unlike last time i encountered what i believe is the same species of Rattlesnake, this time was a bit more dangerous since i was on a slope, ..Slope was still shaded, and the beast in question was well camouflaged in the grass/ other brush. I'm usually pretty good at spotting snakes when out but not yesterday.. Wouldn't have noticed it while taking pictures if i hadn't heard the distinct sound of a rattle, not too far from where i was standing..  Had i stepped 6 or so feet to my right, i'd have stepped on the snake, let alone been in much bigger trouble.

Luckily, i didn't and the snake itself stayed extremely calm while i snapped some pictures just outside of what is considered the strike zone for large Rattlers.  While tempting when encountered, being within this " zone " is something that comes with lots of experience w/ snakes in general  and isn't something i recommend to anyone not already well versed in studying them to attempt..  Especially since the  species encountered yesterday is the most venomous species in the U.S.  -And no, this wasn't a Diamondback, though the 2 sp. are hard to tell apart w/ out careful study.  Anyway....

Phoenix sp.. Thinking P dactylifera, but could be Canaries..  group on the north side of Arnett Canyon. Can see in the pictures that there are a few different specimens. Were not noticed on Google Maps. Specimen(s) noted are a little further up stream, on the south side of the creek / canyon, and at least in picture, appear larger / more mature.  While just a guess, thinking birds moved seed here from specimens at Boyce Thompson, which is just on the other side of the hill.  That or the larger specimen(s) a little further upstream might be reproducing ~if~ both sexes are present..















Whom i meet with yesterday:  Crotulus scutulatus, aka the Mojave or " Green " Rattlesnake..  While Western Diamondbacks get all the attention, this is a far more dangerous snake to encounter. As mentioned sometime ago when i encountered what i believe is the same species, Mojave Rattlers are distinct in that different populations produce 2 different types of Venom ( Literally named " Mojave Toxin " ) and while most authorities consider specimens seen in AZ to produce " typical " Rattlesnake venom ( Type B ), there have been snakes encountered here that produced both and if bit by a specimen containing the more dangerous Neurotoxic variant ( Type A ), symptoms can take hours to set in.






As far as telling this species from our native Diamondbacks,  Head on a Mojave can have a dark, triangular area between the eyes, and darker eyebrow-like eyelids.. Contrasting bands on the tail, below the rattle look different, ..as well as the white bands below the eyes/ side of the face. That said, individuals can be quite variable, so no one way to id a species is always 100% correct.. Regardless, if you see one, give it space, & let it pass.. No need to have an exaggerated and overblown fear of them doing what snakes do out in the wild..  And remember, snakes only strike in defense.. They don't intentionally seek out conflict. While it did assume some degree of a striking pose when first noticed, it quickly settled down and sat in place, rattling a little occasionally -when i'd get a little too close for it's comfort-, ..but that was it.. Much respect and no malice for such an animal.

In any event, perhaps a reminder i need to invest in a pair of snake -proof leg guards for future adventures into snake country.. Lots of wild things out there.

 

[Darold Petty]

 

[Gonzer]

A little off topic but interesting; I eat a lot of dates,  usually Medjool or Deglets. Last month I was given 'Honey' dates which tasted like pure caramel! Fantastic. Googled 'Honey dates' and found that these are the brand name given to any wild dates, not plantation grown. I did not know this . BTW Mr.Silas, you one crazy a$$ mofo, getting right into that snake's grill for the photos. Great post .

[Darold Petty]

Gonzer, have you ever tried the date variety "Barhi' ?  They don't ship well, but are insanely sweet.

Nathan, the biggest rattlesnake I ever encountered (have seen a LOT !)  was at the palm oasis at Anza Borrego state park.   I have an image, somewhere, lost in my box of old 35mm slides.

[JohnAndSancho]

[Silas_Sancona]

13 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

Gonzer, have you ever tried the date variety "Barhi' ?  They don't ship well, but are insanely sweet.

Nathan, the biggest rattlesnake I ever encountered (have seen a LOT !)  was at the palm oasis at Anza Borrego state park.   I have an image, somewhere, lost in my box of old 35mm slides.

For Rattlers, this was up close lifetime encounter #4.  Add to that 2 other encounters w/ Cottonmouths back east. Ironically, in the first, i was actually able to pick up the snake. Weather was still cold when i encountered it so it was pretty lethargic when found. Wish i had taken photo of it.  After seeing another in FL. that was much more alert ( and cranky ), not something i'd attempt again, lol..

Have you ( or Gonzer ) ever tried Black Sphinx Dates?  Would recommend it when available ( usually late summer/ early Autumn ). Not a big fan of dates personally but those things were really good.. Flavor is similar to brown sugar.

[Gonzer]

1 hour ago, JohnAndSancho said:

 

[Gonzer]

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

Gonzer, have you ever tried the date variety "Barhi' ?  They don't ship well, but are insanely sweet.

 

 

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

ever tried Black Sphinx Dates? 

Okee-doe, gonna give 'em both a try. I gobble dates and blueberries every day, don't ask why. Maybe cuz I'm just a 'regular' guy.

[Fusca]

I had a good date last Saturday night.  

[Fusca]

6 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Have you ( or Gonzer ) ever tried Black Sphinx Dates?  Would recommend it when available ( usually late summer/ early Autumn ). Not a big fan of dates personally but those things were really good.. Flavor is similar to brown sugar.

Nathan, do they grow them here?  I'm glad your camera had zoom for those photos!

[Silas_Sancona]

15 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Nathan, do they grow them here?  I'm glad your camera had zoom for those photos!

Pretty sure Black Sphinx are only produced off trees in a particular neighborhood in Phoenix, and possibly off specimens in the the ASU Date Grove. Can't be replicated by seed.

Mixed feelings on the zoom on this camera, esp. in situations like this and others where there is a lot of shade.. Good enough for the moment,  Will have a better option  -before the next " meeting ".

[Gonzer]

16 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Pretty sure Black Sphinx are only produced off trees in a particular neighborhood in Phoenix, and possibly off specimens in the the ASU Date Grove. Can't be replicated by seed.

Mixed feelings on the zoom on this camera, esp. in situations like this and others where there is a lot of shade.. Good enough for the moment,  Will have a better option  -before the next " meeting ".

Sent the wife out on a mission. Result? Task complete. Like having a bite of liquid caramel. Nathan, I owe ya.

[Garcia3]

@Gonzer - Great fact about the Honey date, I didn't realize it wasn't specific cultivar more  general net cast over anything not cultivated.  Makes me wonder what it takes for a wild/honey date to become a recognized cultivar?  It happened with the black sphinx, although rare it could happen again, Lol.                                                                          @Silas_Sancona it is amazing but also not surprising to see phoenix species naturalizing when enough water is present.  Maybe in time we'll have our our distinct species.  Are you keeping track of where you find these wild palms?  It would be cool to check in on them, collect seed,  and maybe visit with the snake :). 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Garcia3

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Garcia3 said:

@Gonzer - Great fact about the Honey date, I didn't realize it wasn't specific cultivar more  general net cast over anything not cultivated.  Makes me wonder what it takes for a wild/honey date to become a recognized cultivar?  It happened with the black sphinx, although rare it could happen again, Lol.                                                                         

@Silas_Sancona it is amazing but also not surprising to see phoenix species naturalizing when enough water is present.  Maybe in time we'll have our our distinct species.  Are you keeping track of where you find these wild palms?  It would be cool to check in on them, collect seed,  and maybe visit with the snake :). 

Pure speculation but, like any other plant, esp. things that produce edible fruit,  would think someone would have to evaluate any particular " wild " date for traits that would make it very unique compared to other random fruit tested -and those varieties already named-  to get to a place where the fruit from a particular " wild " specimen would receive it's own special name..  Imagine there is a list of specific questions that would be asked/ answered before hand.

Bigger specimen(s) i didn't observe w/ my own eyes, in Arnett Canyon, are easily seen on google maps. Those i found are very close by ( say within .05 of a mile, to the west < on google maps > ) but too short atm to show up well on satellite images ( lots of taller tree canopy close enough to hide these pretty well from overhead, for now anyway ). One found in Pima Canyon ( in Tucson ) are also still smaller and blend in w/ other trees/ brush surrounding it to easily spot w/ out heading out there. Very easily spotted when hiking in the that part of the canyon though.

It will be quite some time before one could begin to look for any hints which might suggest offspring from these " feral " plants were exhibiting distinctly different genetic traits than the overall genes observed in the species itself. No doubt that eventually, plants growing in the wild here, or in other areas would change a bit though.

Will be interesting to see how they survive long term if extended droughts like this become the norm. No water anywhere in Arnett Creek, and there was none in Pima back in February. Even if there is any degree of water moving through each area underground, at some point, if there is not enough winter or summer precip. to replenish whatever level of moisture currently exists deeper in the soil, even tough plants like these will eventually suffer adversely from lack of available water. 

Other thing is they could be removed since they are not native..  There is a trail side sign describing on going efforts to eradicate Salt Cedar and Oleander from Arnett Canyon. Wouldn't be surprised if feral Date palms are eventually evaluated for removal as well. That said, because they wouldn't cause as significant of an impact on the local environment as say Salt Cedar, or Buffelgrass, they could be left alone, or carefully managed.