Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

[Victor G.]

Say @Manos33, I know it's off topic, but you seem to know some things about Rhodes, so here's a question I have:

We wanted to go to Lindos for Easter holidays (won't be happening though, cause the family was insulted that we wouldn't be there with them).

But in my search, I noticed that the beach of Tsampikas is full of banana plants, many of them seem to have pretty big fruit in the photos.

Do you happen to know if they ripen there (like in Crete)? Should be, I believe, they have have similar climate

[southathens]

On 2/23/2022 at 7:02 PM, Victor G. said:

Say @Manos33, I know it's off topic, but you seem to know some things about Rhodes, so here's a question I have:

We wanted to go to Lindos for Easter holidays (won't be happening though, cause the family was insulted that we wouldn't be there with them).

But in my search, I noticed that the beach of Tsampikas is full of banana plants, many of them seem to have pretty big fruit in the photos.

Do you happen to know if they ripen there (like in Crete)? Should be, I believe, they have have similar climate

Hello sorry for the late reply. I am not an expert on tropical fruits but I do recall various locals saying that bananas ripen throughout Rhodes. The only issue is that there is no massive production of bananas like in Crete.

[Victor G.]

Man, what's happening, it's crazy! I'm 26 years old and never in my life have a seen such snow and low temperatures in the middle of March

Safe to say that coconuts won't make it in Lindos; it's 9C at the moment and is expected to move under the 10C threshold for the next two-three days.
(Some projections on windy.com even have the temperature dropping to 5C, but they're not always that accurate).

This weather definitely doesn't seem normal to me, but I'd like to hear more opinions if anyone gas to share

[southathens]

On 3/10/2022 at 5:44 PM, Victor G. said:

Man, what's happening, it's crazy! I'm 26 years old and never in my life have a seen such snow and low temperatures in the middle of March

Safe to say that coconuts won't make it in Lindos; it's 9C at the moment and is expected to move under the 10C threshold for the next two-three days.
(Some projections on windy.com even have the temperature dropping to 5C, but they're not always that accurate).

This weather definitely doesn't seem normal to me, but I'd like to hear more opinions if anyone gas to share

Yes, it's the coldest March in Greece from the epic March of 1987. In fact there will be a new cold spell next weekend. It might just actually beat March 1987 at least in terms of Ts. Even though, it is nowhere near the snow falls seen in various parts of Greece during March 1987. 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Manos33

[Victor G.]

27 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Yes, it's the coldest March in Greece from the epic March of 1987. In fact there will be a new cold spell next weekend. It might just actually beat March 1987 at least in terms of Ts. Even though, it is nowhere near the snow falls seen in various parts of Greece during March 1987. 

 

 

Fortunately the new cold wave will weaker (with the current prognosis). Still unsually cold weather for March (kinda makes a joke of the old tradition with the Martis bracelet :P)

I don't know about 1987 (wasn't born yet!) but since the weather has gotten a lot warmer now, it makes me wonder how it plunged back.

Anyways, I don't know if you look it up, but meteo.gr always publishes the Tmax variations of each month, compared to the average, here: https://meteo.gr/climatic_deviation.cfm .
Never the Tmin though, which in my opinion, would be a lot more interesting. I'll write them an e-mail with the idea (don't think they will reply, but I'll give it a try nevertheless)

[Alicante]

15 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Fortunately the new cold wave will weaker (with the current prognosis). Still unsually cold weather for March (kinda makes a joke of the old tradition with the Martis bracelet :P)

I don't know about 1987 (wasn't born yet!) but since the weather has gotten a lot warmer now, it makes me wonder how it plunged back.

Anyways, I don't know if you look it up, but meteo.gr always publishes the Tmax variations of each month, compared to the average, here: https://meteo.gr/climatic_deviation.cfm .
Never the Tmin though, which in my opinion, would be a lot more interesting. I'll write them an e-mail with the idea (don't think they will reply, but I'll give it a try nevertheless)

I saw the official temps registered today on your link and wow... https://meteo.gr/observations.cfm?ProvinceID=10

The city of Rhodes had a high of 9ºC and a low of 2ºC
Lindos had a high of 9ºC and a low of 3ºC
Kasos had a high of 9ºC and a low of 6ºC

I also see that over the past 3 days, all 3 stations had highs under 10ºC and we're in the middle of March. Definetly not even a slight chance for any coconut. 
These prolonged chilly high temps also affect subtropical flora like bananas. Moreso with the strong dry and cold winds they have right now according to the Meteo.gr site.

[UK_Palms]

I reckon you'll be able to grow Beccariophoenix Alfredii fine on the Greek islands and possibly even in the protected regions of Athens as well. Any other coconut however, you can forget about it. I know somebody in Crete who is only about a mile inland from the coast and he says the high yesterday was only 7C and it went down to -1C last night. In mid-March at 35N in Europe!

It's 100% due to southeast Europe's proximity to the European and Asian continent, allowing cold air masses from Sibera/arctic to travel southeast across open land. That is what caused the big freeze in January and again in March, although it clearly doesn't happen every year. But when it does happen you end up with major snow events even along the Greek coasts at 40-35N. Sooner or later it will line up perfectly in January for major cold and there will be a big snow/freeze event for Greece, worse than what we have seen this year.

Western Europe doesn't have this issue as it is situated next to the Atlantic and has water barriers too. That is why the UK is as mild as it is, despite the northern latitude, and it is also why southern Spain doesn't get anywhere near as cold as Greece does during major cold events. I'm not convinced coconuts are longterm in coastal Andalusia either, but that is probably the only place they may stand a chance outside of the Canaries and Madeira. That Cypriot one is probably on borrowed time, at least without protection. They only reached 6C in Limassol today and the temperature is already down to 3C at 8pm. 

[Victor G.]

@Alicante@UK_Palms You're both right, coconuts would definitely kiss us goodbye, especially this winter/March.

I read somewhere that a shift in the polar jets is causing these low temperatures, because let's face it; they are extremely abnormal. Don't know if this theory is true though.

Israel and Egypt are also experiencing abnormally low temperatures at the moment

[Aceraceae]

Malaga is a bit warmer at about 60/50 F (15/10 C) weather, but a lot of rain. How's that potted coconut. Is it even outside? 

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

@Alicante@UK_Palms You're both right, coconuts would definitely kiss us goodbye, especially this winter/March.

I read somewhere that a shift in the polar jets is causing these low temperatures, because let's face it; they are extremely abnormal. Don't know if this theory is true though.

Israel and Egypt are also experiencing abnormally low temperatures at the moment

I think it's just luck of the draw as well, so I wouldn't read too much into polar jets/vortex shifts and SSW events. It just so happens that southeast Europe and the Levant have had two abnormally cold spells this winter due to Siberian/arctic air masses coming down. Most years there won't be any, but every so often you will get one, or even two in a single winter like this year. A reminder that it can definitely happen, even if it doesn't happen often. Again, it's all down to luck of the draw really. Greece, Turkey, Syria etc got unlucky.

Western Europe really lucked out this winter with Spain, France, UK etc all very mild. It could be the other way around next year though. Winter 2021 saw frigid cold and snow in Madrid, Paris, London etc, whereas this winter just gone has been pretty kind to us. The lowest it got at London City airport this winter was 0C, whereas last winter it went down to -4C there, during an abnormally cold period. So it's like drawing straws come December. Usually when western Europe is pretty mild, it means the eastern half of Europe is pretty cold. 

[Alicante]

58 minutes ago, Aceraceae said:

Malaga is a bit warmer at about 60/50 F (15/10 C) weather, but a lot of rain. How's that potted coconut. Is it even outside? 

Where have you seen these temps? They are far from reality. Also, the potted coconut is in Rincón de La Victoria, a place that's milder than Málaga itself.  

Today's official AEMET highs and lows in Málaga were 20.7ºC/12.7ºC (69.3/54.9 F) and in Rincón they were 19.8ºC/14.2ºC (67.6/57.6 F)

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6156X&w=1&datos=img
http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6175X&w=1&datos=img

These temperatures are official AEMET temps, from properly placed, ground based AEMET/WMO stations. Where did you see 15 / 10 weather??

That coconut from Rincón has been always outside over the past 8 years. With 0 artificial protection. But I don't think this is the proper thread as it's unrelated to Greece.

 

[Aceraceae]

The next couple days' forecast for Malaga March 14 thru 16 Monday through Wednesday. 

[Alicante]

27 minutes ago, Aceraceae said:

The next couple days' forecast for Malaga March 14 thru 16 Monday through Wednesday. 

It's actually warmer than that. Here you have the official AEMET forecast, which shows highs from 18 to 20ºC (65/68F) and lows from 11 to 12ºC (52/54F).

http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/prediccion/municipios/rincon-de-la-victoria-id29082



https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/
http://www.aemet.es/es/eltiempo/observacion/ultimosdatos?k=and&l=6175X&w=0&datos=img&x=h24&f=temperatura

Right now there is a difference of +11ºC between Rincón and Lindos. Lindos NOA is at 6.5ºC (44F) and Málaga Rincón is around 17ºC (63F) so the difference is massive.

But of course this is nowhere near normal for Rhodes/Lindos or Greece in general. They have temps well under their normal average right now all across Greece. 

Here is the CFS Anomaly temperature map from 12 to 19th March. Málaga is +0.25ºC which is the normal average. The island of Rhodes is around -3/-3.5ºC.


 

2 hours ago, Victor G. said:

@Alicante@UK_Palms You're both right, coconuts would definitely kiss us goodbye, especially this winter/March.

I read somewhere that a shift in the polar jets is causing these low temperatures, because let's face it; they are extremely abnormal. Don't know if this theory is true though.

Israel and Egypt are also experiencing abnormally low temperatures at the moment

They are indeed abnormally cold. Check the CFS Anomaly map from above. 6.5ºC in Lindos at 20:15 UTC in the middle of March is definetly very rare. 

The map shows the deviation within a 7 day period from 12th to 19th March, that's why it shows just -3.5ºC under the normal average. For today is much more. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Alicante

[UK_Palms]

Here's the minimum temperatures across Europe last night. The contrast between east to west is actually insane.

 

Kasos is the mildest place in Greece in my opinion. It was the mildest place last night with a low of 7.6C and is the only place in Greece with a remote chance of growing a coconut.

[southathens]

13 hours ago, Alicante said:

I saw the official temps registered today on your link and wow... https://meteo.gr/observations.cfm?ProvinceID=10

The city of Rhodes had a high of 9ºC and a low of 2ºC
Lindos had a high of 9ºC and a low of 3ºC
Kasos had a high of 9ºC and a low of 6ºC

I also see that over the past 3 days, all 3 stations had highs under 10ºC and we're in the middle of March. Definetly not even a slight chance for any coconut. 
These prolonged chilly high temps also affect subtropical flora like bananas. Moreso with the strong dry and cold winds they have right now according to the Meteo.gr site.

 

Yeah 2.4C in Rhodes in March is probably close to the March record (if not a record already). Unfortunately for Rhodes city we rely on the records from the old airport which has nothing to do with Rhodes city actual climate since the old airport was inland and far from the sea. That's why you have this -4C all time record low and people are just amazed of how it is possible that Rhodes city proper managed so low Ts. So far the 1.7C record in the link below is the absolute minimum we have seen in Rhodes city according to the NOA station. Which goes to show how incredibly rare 2022 has been both for January and now March

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/rhodes/NOAAYR.TXT

Don't forget that Kasos registered this January its all time record low of 3C from the HNMS station (2.7C from the NOA station). The lowest value from when observations started on the island in 1989. So yeah,  as it seems 2022 is an extraordinary occurrence for SE Dodecanese Islands.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

9 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Kasos is the mildest place in Greece in my opinion. It was the mildest place last night with a low of 7.6C and is the only place in Greece with a remote chance of growing a coconut.

 

Yes, we agree.  Kasos has never dropped below 3C from 1989 when records began on the island (and this record was seen this year mind you) . It shows an almost unique resistance to low minimum temperatures even compared to neighbouring Karpathos situated at the same latitude. This is evident both from HNMS and NOA stations on Kasos. With average minimums close to 12C in the winter it does make a very strong candidate for the most beautiful tropical plants.

Kasos amazing resistance to low minimums is probably a combination of constant air flow during the winter which prevents nocturnal radiation from plummeting Ts and its favourable position sheltered from Karpathos to the East and Crete to the West. It is practically the only place in Greece where the cold spells from the Balkans are almost negligible. In fact I remember a myriad of cold spells in Greece where Kasos was simply on its own parallel universe never experiencing anything remotely close to what was happening to rest of the country. 

This is why according to Greek garden experts it is the only place in Greece and geographical Europe for that matter with a PH zone of 11b.  The only real problem for us to determine what kind of tropical plants can actually survive in Kasos is the fact that the island has only close to 1000 permanent inhabitants in the winter. Ok it gets insane tourist influx in the summer and the tourist infrastructure on the island actually supports close to 50k residents at any given moment, it is unfortunately almost deserted during the winters...

The very few winter inhabitants coupled with the general demotivation of Greek gardeners is a devastating combination and I am very sad to say that we might never find out what kind of tropical plants can be supported in Kasos. I have personally made repeated calls both to Greek forums and even the local authorities on Kasos to get at least someone from the public administration to pay attention to the amazingly mild winter climate on the island. So far only a deputy vice mayor of a local settlement in Kasos reached out. He told me that he is well aware of how mild the climate is on the island but there is non existent funding for public garden schemes on the island. Basically it is all down to whether or not we will find a willing winter inhabitant who will pay out of his pocket to test our hypothesis on what tropical species can survive unsheltered in Kasos... Yeah, i don't see that happening any time soon!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Manos33

[Victor G.]

3 hours ago, Manos33 said:

general demotivation of Greek gardeners

Exactly that. When I was planting bananas, papayas, dates palms and dragon fruit in Schoinias, a lot of passing by people stopped, stared and asked me what I'm planting and how it's gonna grow.
I replied "we'll never know if someone doesn't experiment". But I think 1% (or even less) of Greeks would really go into trouble of experimenting. Everyone always plants what their grandparents used to grow.

There is a facebook group called Κήποι, μπαλκόνια - Καρποφόρα δέντρα, Καλλωπιστικά Φυτά, where occasionally you'll see some tropical growers (and find me in the comments asking for location sometimes!).

But Greece is very unexplored when it comes to these kinds and I believe will remain so; people here have no interest (unless someone starts growing commercially some tropical species and proves that it can be done)

[Alicante]

16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Here's the minimum temperatures across Europe last night. The contrast between east to west is actually insane.

 

Kasos is the mildest place in Greece in my opinion. It was the mildest place last night with a low of 7.6C and is the only place in Greece with a remote chance of growing a coconut.

A small correction, the low in Kasos was 6.4ºC (not 7.6ºC) using the data from the only station on the island: https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/kasos/NOAAMO.TXT
But it's still much warmer than everywhere else in Greece and I also do agree it looks like the mildest place on the entire country given its position and natural sheltering.

7 hours ago, Manos33 said:

 

Yeah 2.4C in Rhodes in March is probably close to the March record (if not a record already). Unfortunately for Rhodes city we rely on the records from the old airport which has nothing to do with Rhodes city actual climate since the old airport was inland and far from the sea. That's why you have this -4C all time record low and people are just amazed of how it is possible that Rhodes city proper managed so low Ts. So far the 1.7C record in the link below is the absolute minimum we have seen in Rhodes city according to the NOA station. Which goes to show how incredibly rare 2022 has been both for January and now March

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/rhodes/NOAAYR.TXT

Don't forget that Kasos registered this January its all time record low of 3C from the HNMS station (2.7C from the NOA station). The lowest value from when observations started on the island in 1989. So yeah,  as it seems 2022 is an extraordinary occurrence for SE Dodecanese Islands.  

I forgot about the 2.7ºC temp in Kasos, now since you say it I remember that, it was one of those days inside of the cold front. I also agree (like I said above to UK Palms) that Kasos is surely the mildest place in Greece. During the last 4 days, Kasos had lows from 6.4 to 6.7ºC while for example Lindos had a low as low as 3.1ºC so Kasos was twice as warm!

Edited March 14, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

3 hours ago, Victor G. said:

But Greece is very unexplored when it comes to these kinds and I believe will remain so; people here have no interest (unless someone starts growing commercially some tropical species and proves that it can be done)

Spot on! This is why we need to press on with areas such as Kasos which show an amazing dynamic for European standards. I actually calculated the frequency of days with a Tmax of less than 10C in Kasos between 2010 and 2021 (I haven't done 2022 because I am waiting for March to pass first) and only 1.1 days per year on average Kasos has a maximum of less than 10C. OK 2022 will push slightly the average to around 1.5 days but still it shows real promise even for Coconuts given that in a period of 12 years very rarely you see such cold snaps we show this year and last year. Any cocos in Kasos might actually survive for a few years and who knows they might manage to survive a few cold snaps. 

We will never know unless we try and Kasos is just clearly the ideal candidate with the highest winter means in country and geographical Europe. 

Here the table from my excel

[southathens]

5 minutes ago, Alicante said:

A small correction, the low in Kasos was 6.4ºC (not 7.6ºC) using the data from the only station on the island: https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/kasos/NOAAMO.TXT

Yeah I was about to comment on that. No Kasos NOA is not the only station on the island. HNMS has a station on the island in the airport (close to Fri where the NOA station is located).

The 7.6C value that you see is from the HNMS airport station. If you go back a few posts you will see that I speak about this and about the fact that actually the HNMS station is even milder than the Davis NOA station which goes to show how accurate Davis NOA stations are! 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Manos33

[Alicante]

3 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Yeah I was about to comment on that. No Kasos NOA is not the only station on the island. HNMS has a station on the island in the airport (close to Fri where the NOA station is located).

The 7.6C value that you see is from the HNMS station. If you go back a few posts you will see that I speak about this and about the fact that actually the HNMS station is even milder than the Davis NOA station which goes to show how accurate Davis NOA stations are! 

Does Kasos have an HNMS station? I have never seen anything on the web. Do you have any link regarding their data? I would like to compare it to NOA. 

In that zone I have only found the Karpathos one on the EMY/HNMS website. I only found this, they say it's only a wind and rain station, they also record temperatures?

http://www.emy.gr/emy/en/aviation/aeronaftilia-kodikes-aerodromion?code=METAR&airport=Kasos&code2=Taf9&airport2=Madrid

[southathens]

8 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Does Kasos have an HNMS station? I have never seen anything on the web. Do you have any link regarding their data? I would like to compare it to NOA. 

In that zone I have only found the Karpathos one on the EMY/HNMS website. I only found this, they say it's only a wind and rain station, they also record temperatures?

http://www.emy.gr/emy/en/aviation/aeronaftilia-kodikes-aerodromion?code=METAR&airport=Kasos&code2=Taf9&airport2=Madrid

 

Of course there is an HNMS station in Kasos which records everything! Its been on the island from 1989 with an absolute minimum of 3C (rounded value). I have mentioned this maybe close to 10 times here. Maybe you are not paying too much attention are you?:) 

Anyhow,  to get the HNMS Kasos data you will need to email HNMS directly unfortunately.  Sporadically they would report the temps on ''yesterday's weather'' but it is not consistent. What I do is rely on rounded values from HNMS metar here and if in doubt I email HNMS and they give me the values.

http://www.emy.gr/emy/en/observation/sa_teleytaies_paratiriseis_stathmou?perifereia=South Aegean&poli=Kasos

Just remember that the Kasos HNMS station is consistently milder than the NOA Davis station.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Manos33

[Alicante]

27 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Spot on! This is why we need to press on with areas such as Kasos which show an amazing dynamic for European standards. I actually calculated the frequency of days with a Tmax of less than 10C in Kasos between 2010 and 2021 (I haven't done 2022 because I am waiting for March to pass first) and only 1.1 days per year on average Kasos has a maximum of less than 10C. OK 2022 will push slightly the average to around 1.5 days but still it shows real promise even for Coconuts given that in a period of 12 years very rarely you see such cold snaps we show this year and last year. Any cocos in Kasos might actually survive for a few years and who knows they might manage to survive a few cold snaps. 

We will never know unless we try and Kasos is just clearly the ideal candidate with the highest winter means in country and geographical Europe. 

Here the table from my excel

Let me explain you the coconut thing. Tmaxes under 15ºC are terrifying for a coconut and Kasos normally has quite a ton of them during winters.

Tmaxes under 10ºC are just a killer. Coconuts want winter warmth, which Kasos obviously lacks given its mildness. The coconuts growing in California in places such La Quinta or Salton Sea, well, just Google up their forecast. For them, is not rare to have +25ºC winter Tmaxes and even around 30ºC which in Europe is sci-fi. That's why the coconuts thrive there. 

Coconuts suffer a lot with Tmaxes under 15ºC (or at least this is what I've read many times) of course if we stick just to the lows of Kasos, they could survive there, the problem are the Tmaxes, which are very low for coconuts and warm temps are very rare during winter, when I say warm temps I say temps of at least 21ºC/70F so this is the real problem!

Don't think this is something new - I've been reading this for more than a decade, since I joined Palmtalk. Coconuts want heat! They struggle with Tmaxes under 20ºC (they can take them) but when Tmaxes are 15-16ºC they start to decay (not if it's only for few days, yes if this happens during entire months) while Tmaxes under 15ºC are just agony for coconuts. Not even saying under 10ºC or slightly above that mark. They prefer 20-21 highs and 7-8 lows than 15-16 highs and 11-12 lows. That's why they grow in California.
 

11 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

 

Of course there is an HNMS station in Kasos which records everything! Its been on the island from 1989 with an absolute minimum of 3C (rounded value). I have mentioned this maybe close to 10 times here. Maybe you are not paying too much attention are you?:) 

Anyhow,  to get the HNMS Kasos data you will need to email HNMS directly unfortunately.  Sporadically they would report the temps on ''yesterday's weather'' but it is not consistent. What I do is rely on rounded values from HNMS metar here and if in doubt I email HNMS and they give me the values.

http://www.emy.gr/emy/en/observation/sa_teleytaies_paratiriseis_stathmou?perifereia=South Aegean&poli=Kasos

Oh okay, then nevermind if we have to contact them. Do they publish at least daily/weekly reports or that neither? 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Alicante

[southathens]

2 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Let me explain you the coconut thing. Tmaxes under 15ºC are terrifying for a coconut and Kasos normally has quite a ton of them during winters.

Tmaxes under 10ºC are just a killer. Coconuts want winter warmth, which Kasos obviously lacks given its mildness. The coconuts growing in California in places such La Quinta or Salton Sea, well, just Google up their forecast. For them, is not rare to have +25ºC winter Tmaxes and even around 30ºC which in Europe is sci-fi. That's why the coconuts thrive there. 

You need to know that coconuts stop growing at 15ºC (at least this is what I've heard so many times) of course if we stick just to the lows of Kasos, they could survive there, the problem are the Tmaxes, which are very low for coconuts and warm temps are very rare during winter, when I say warm temps I say temps of at least 21ºC/70F so this is the real problem!

I need to check the days of lows less than 15C but still we do not know how a coco in Kasos would behave given that we have never tried it before. The problem is not the Ts in Kasos in my opinion but the fact that we have not tried yet!!! 

We will never know unless we try and this is why I am trying to mobilize as many people as possible from Kasos public administration as well. 

Btw 30C in Europe is not sci-fi! Greece's and Europe's January record of 30.4C was recorded in 2010 in the Vrysses NOA station in Crete. It is very rare but it does happen in Greece occasionally. 

[Alicante]

1 minute ago, Manos33 said:

I need to check the days of lows less than 15C but still we do not know how a coco in Kasos would behave given that we have never tried it before. The problem is not the Ts in Kasos in my opinion but the fact that we have not tried yet!!! 

We will never know unless we try and this is why I am trying to mobilize as many people as possible from Kasos public administration as well. 

Btw 30C in Europe is not sci-fi! Greece's and Europe's January record of 30.4C was recorded in 2010 in the Vrysses NOA station in Crete. It is very rare but it does happen in Greece occasionally. 

Read the entire post now since I've edited it. You still don't get the point here. That's a very occasional temperature that happens once in history. In California that happens every year. Do you understand the difference? I know it's not sci-fi , Alicante reached 29.8ºC in January 2021 and some Davis Fan Aspirated non-AEMET stations from the regional met agency went above 30ºC south of where I live, but this won't happen again, let's be clear, while SoCal sees these temps every year because of La Nina!

Kasos seems to have an average Tmax around 15-16 in January so it's not exactly checking them but it's in their real average. I know no one has probably tried it before, I'm just telling you by the experience of similar climates. Coconuts don't grow in Santa Catalina Island off the coast of Los Angeles. But they grow in La Quinta or Salton. Because they want heat!

[southathens]

6 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Kasos seems to have an average Tmax around 15-16 in January so it's not exactly checking them but it's in their real average. I know no one has probably tried it before, I'm just telling you by the experience of similar climates. Coconuts don't grow in Santa Catalina Island off the coast of Los Angeles. But they grow in La Quinta or Salton. Because they want heat!

Like I said, you will never know unless you try it in a specific area. Greece's climate is different compared to SoCal and not many attempts have been made in Greece to grow cocos. Only in Rhodes as far as I am aware from Maurice. Kasos is unique in Greece due to how mild it is. Whether or not sustained 15-16C throughout January would kill or stop the growth of cocos in Kasos remains to be seen on the ground and on Kasos's climate no matter what is going on in entirely different climates. The real ground zero would be Kasos if we are testing how Kasos fairs with tropical plants.

[southathens]

30 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Oh okay, then nevermind if we have to contact them. Do they publish at least daily/weekly reports or that neither? 

Nah, its only sporadically and that's if we are lucky we get to see the Kasos T's on ''yesterday's weather'' section. 

[Alicante]

Just now, Manos33 said:

Like I said, you will never know unless you try it in a specific area. Greece's climate is different compared to SoCal and not many attempts have been made in Greece to grow cocos. Only in Rhodes as far as I am aware from Maurice. Kasos is unique in Greece due to how mild it is. Whether or not sustained 15-16C throughout January would kill or stop the growth of cocos in Kasos remains to be seen on the ground and on Kasos's climate no matter what is going on in entirely different climates. The real ground zero would be Kasos if we are testing how Kasos fairs with tropical plants.

I agree, but keep in mind that 15-16 number is the average. Some days have highs of 12-13 and others of 17-18 so that's the balance between the high temps. For example, there is an user here on PalmTalk called "Maltese Coconut Project" which grows them in Malta, with a very similar climate to Kasos and Lindos, and his palms got very damaged during this winter and his lows where nowhere as close as the ones spotted in Lindos (TLows) or in both Kasos and Lindos (TMaxes) and this is a comparable place also inside the Mediterranean.

I've actually checked the data on https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/stationInfo.asp and I've personally checked the 2011-2022 January temps in Kasos and just 2016 and 2021 had highs above 20ºC and only 5 days out of 12 entire years (during January) had highs above 20ºC while that's of course not marked anywhere as a "coconut requirement" but it's how they like it. Kasos had this only 5 times during 12 years in January, do you understand my point now? It's also because it's very mild, the lows are very mild, but the highs lack heat. 

The Cali example was for example Santa Catalina island which has very mild lows but it lacks warmth, meanwhile La Quinta, Ca, has very healthy and thriving coconuts. But of course, the winter temps they have now are really sci-fi in Europe. I said that because for them is not rare to have winter Tmaxes around 30ºC while for us that's an historical event! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Quinta,_California

As you can see their Dec-Feb average highs are 22-24ºC and March is already above 27ºC while their record winter highs are really sci-fi for everywhere on the Mediterranean.
Their actual forecast shows 30-34ºC highs and 14-16ºC lows which is insane. I just write all of this just to explain you the proper requirements for a coconut! 

But I do agree that the only way to know it, is to plant one in Kasos. Anyways, there are some tropical species that would thrive in the climate of Kasos, since they prefer milder lows than higher highs, unlike coconuts do for example. The only coconut in "Europe" (as it's not geographically Europe) that had success is the one @Stelios has in Cyprus. 

But Cyprus is warmer than everywhere else in Europe when it comes to winter Tmaxes (Tmaxes are the key for coconuts) btw Stelios, how is your coconut doing nowadays? 

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Spot on! This is why we need to press on with areas such as Kasos which show an amazing dynamic for European standards. I actually calculated the frequency of days with a Tmax of less than 10C in Kasos between 2010 and 2021 (I haven't done 2022 because I am waiting for March to pass first) and only 1.1 days per year on average Kasos has a maximum of less than 10C. OK 2022 will push slightly the average to around 1.5 days but still it shows real promise even for Coconuts given that in a period of 12 years very rarely you see such cold snaps we show this year and last year. Any cocos in Kasos might actually survive for a few years and who knows they might manage to survive a few cold snaps. 

We will never know unless we try and Kasos is just clearly the ideal candidate with the highest winter means in country and geographical Europe. 

Here the table from my excel

@Manos33A question: Where did you find the past meteorological data?

When I enter Kasos' weather station data here I can only find the current and last year. But no further back. Are the climate archives stored somewhere?

[Alicante]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

@Manos33A question: Where did you find the past meteorological data?

When I enter Kasos' weather station data here I can only find the current and last year. But no further back. Are the climate archives stored somewhere?

You can find it here: https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/ (like all of Greek NOA stations)
This is from where I took the data I was talking in the post that's above yours! Kasos has 2011-2022 data. 

[southathens]

3 minutes ago, Alicante said:

 or in both Kasos and Lindos (TMaxes) and this is a comparable place also inside the Mediterranean.
 

Malta has a January meax max of 15.7C according to the Luqa stations,  so what do you mean ''no where near Kasos or Lindos maxes''? The maxes are pretty similar.  Unless you mean maxes for a specific year. 

Anyhow whatever the outcome in other comparable parts Kasos has unique mildness for European standards so we will need to test cocos there and nowhere else.  That is how we can say with certainty that 16C Tmaxs and 12C Tmins would work or not work in Kasos. It is irrelevant what is happening in SoCal or even Malta for that matter!

[Alicante]

Hey guys, sorry for the off topic on this specific post, but it would be rude from my part to not answer to someone that's making me a question. 
 

18 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

How's that potted coconut in Malaga? 

Well, as I said above, it's actually in Rincón de La Victoria, a zone that's milder than Málaga itself and it's a 11a area, as far as I know it was still alive during the past summer. 

If it does well during this winter, it would actually be the 8th winter in a row being outdoors without any kind of artificial help, not even a thin foil cover. It had a "smaller brother" that died few years ago, this one resisted, it was during the 2017 winter which was record breaking in many parts of Spain. 

Here I leave the official AEMET temperature reports of Rincón over the past week (according to the CFS map, it's point on average) and the 7-day official forecast. 







As said by @UK_Palms , the Iberian Peninsula is naturally "blessed" by the Atlantic Ocean moderating cold spells. Late Winter/early Spring (March) also warms up very quick in Spain and Portugal, as compared to the Eastern Mediterranean, where they have to wait for late April/early May, if you check up the official averages you'll see this difference. 

If I get any newer feedback about the coconut in Rincón/Málaga I'll tell you in the "growing coconuts in borderline climates" okay? As this thread is not related. 

[southathens]

Just now, Alicante said:

You can find it here: https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/ (like all of Greek NOA stations)
This is from where I took the data I was talking in the post that's above yours! Kasos has 2011-2022 data. 

Actually the fastest way for basic parameters (Mean Tmax, Tmin etc) would be the NOA bulletins

https://www.meteo.gr/Monthly_Bulletins.cfm

[Alicante]

Just now, Manos33 said:

Malta has a January meax max of 15.7C according to the Luqa stations,  so what do you mean ''no where near Kasos or Lindos maxes''? The maxes are pretty similar.  Unless you mean maxes for a specific year. 

Yes, I was referring  to the lowest January and March 2022 Tmax and Tlow temps caused by the cold spells you have had in Greece, including Kasos and Lindos. 

I mean, he didn't have such severe temperature deviations from average, because Greece got hit hard this year! Of course (as of normal averages) they're very similar. 

[Victor G.]

@AlicanteFound it, thanks!

@Manos33Ah true, but yeah, these only give you the averages, not every-day temps and rain. Still useful though

[UK_Palms]

Some will tell you that Limassol in Cyprus is the warmest place in Europe (debatable whether Cyprus is even in Europe). However last night they had a frost as it went down to -0.4C at the Limassol port even. If that happened in January at 34N it would be pretty surprising, but we are in mid-March now. The new March record low of -11.1C was recorded at Troodos and the town of Prodromos had a record low of -7.6C too last night. Very cold conditions for Cyprus and Turkey. Probably more so than what Greece has experienced.

Where is the guy with the Cypriot coconut located?

Snow along the beach in Anamur, which is supposedly the warmest part of mainland Turkey. It's approximately 100 miles southeast of Antalya, where they had a low of 2.8C and a high of 4C on Sunday. Record low maxima for the date and possibly for March as well.

 

I know this is in the mountains of Greece, but even there such lows of nearly -30C are extreme. Even in the Scottish Highlands at 55N they didn't go much below -15C this winter. It shows just how significant this cold snap is in southeast Europe and how much cold potential exists in that area due to its proximity to Siberia and the lack of an ocean buffer. 

 

How many inches of snow has the Greek Islands had this winter? If you said these photos were taken in Helsinki and Scandinavia, you wouldn't think twice. These are from 13th March.

 

This is in central Greece over the weekend...

 

I think Kasos being such a small island also helps it stay so mild on cold nights. Bigger islands like Crete and Cyprus seem to get pretty cold due to having such large land surface areas that cool down rapidly on clear nights during winter. Cold air masses are more likely to stick around as well in the interior of the bigger islands, whereas small islands like Kasos have a small land area that is surrounded by sea. That is also why Malta is so mild as well on cold winter nights. For this reason, I suspect Lampedusa is the best location in the Mediterranean to grow coconuts, followed by Malta and then Kasos, purely due to how mild it is on the coldest nights there. It helps that Lampedusa is quite a bit drier as well in winter. Even then I am not convinced coconuts are longterm there.

Luqa, Malta...

 

Lampedusa is much drier by about 10 inches or so and just as warm as Malta too. Almost certainly the best spot in the Mediterranean to try a coconut. If you put one up against a south facing wall and irrigated it heavily in summer, but no irrigation in winter. This is the 1961-1990 figures so it will be higher now.

 

Here are the afternoon temperatures around Europe on Monday. Generally speaking it is pretty mild for everybody, except for southeast Europe (Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria etc). The heat is really starting to build in north Africa again now, which should buffer against the cold Siberian front and provide some warmth to southeast Europe later this week. Will it come in time for that Cypriot coconut, which I am assuming has been protected this winter before this event?

Edited March 14, 2022 by UK_Palms

[Alicante]

12 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Some will tell you that Limassol in Cyprus is the warmest place in Europe (debatable whether Cyprus is even in Europe). However last night they had a frost as it went down to -0.4C at the Limassol port even. If that happened in January at 34N it would be pretty surprising, but we are in mid-March now. The new March record low of -11.1C was recorded at Troodos and the town of Prodromos had a record low of -7.6C too last night. Very cold conditions for Cyprus and Turkey. Probably more so than what Greece has experienced.

Where is the guy with the Cypriot coconut located?

Snow along the beach in Anamur, which is supposedly the warmest part of mainland Turkey. It's approximately 100 miles southeast of Antalya, where they had a low of 2.8C and a high of 4C on Sunday. Record low maxima for the date and possibly for March as well.

 

I know this is in the mountains of Greece, but even there such lows of nearly -30C are extreme. Even in the Scottish Highlands at 55N they didn't go much below -15C this winter. It shows just how significant this cold snap is in southeast Europe and how much cold potential exists in that area due to its proximity to Siberia and the lack of an ocean buffer. 

 

How many inches of snow has the Greek Islands had this winter? If you said these photos were taken in Helsinki and Scandinavia, you wouldn't think twice. These are from 13th March.

 

This is in central Greece over the weekend...

Thanks for this wonderful information... do you have more? I have literally nowhere where to seek and see for the extreme climate events that happen outside of Spain rather than your posts at least in 2021 and 2022 and I'm not even joking... you do an amazing compilation of Tweets/News, do you have more info about Cyprus specifically?

I didn't know it got under -0ºC in Limassol today... wtf and it snowed again this past weekend on some Greek islands? We're in the middle of March for God's sake!

Right now temps in SE Europe are terrible for this time of the year, also terrible for exotic plants and plants. The bananas in Cyprus must be suffering...




 

[Victor G.]

32 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Some will tell you that Limassol in Cyprus is the warmest place in Europe (debatable whether Cyprus is even in Europe). However last night they had a frost as it went down to -0.4C at the Limassol port even. If that happened in January at 34N it would be pretty surprising, but we are in mid-March now. The new March record low of -11.1C was recorded at Troodos and the town of Prodromos had a record low of -7.6C too last night. Very cold conditions for Cyprus and Turkey. Probably more so than what Greece has experienced.

Where is the guy with the Cypriot coconut located?

Snow along the beach in Anamur, which is supposedly the warmest part of mainland Turkey. It's approximately 100 miles southeast of Antalya, where they had a low of 2.8C and a high of 4C on Sunday. Record low maxima for the date and possibly for March as well.

 

I know this is in the mountains of Greece, but even there such lows of nearly -30C are extreme. Even in the Scottish Highlands at 55N they didn't go much below -15C this winter. It shows just how significant this cold snap is in southeast Europe and how much cold potential exists in that area due to its proximity to Siberia and the lack of an ocean buffer. 

 

How many inches of snow has the Greek Islands had this winter? If you said these photos were taken in Helsinki and Scandinavia, you wouldn't think twice. These are from 13th March.

 

This is in central Greece over the weekend...

 

I think Kasos being such a small island also helps it stay so mild on cold nights. Bigger islands like Crete and Cyprus seem to get pretty cold due to having such large land surface areas that cool down rapidly on clear nights during winter. Cold air masses are more likely to stick around as well in the interior of the bigger islands, whereas small islands like Kasos have a small land area that is surrounded by sea. That is also why Malta is so mild as well on cold winter nights. For this reason, I suspect Lampedusa is the best location in the Mediterranean to grow coconuts, followed by Malta and then Kasos, purely due to how mild it is on the coldest nights there. It helps that Lampedusa is quite a bit drier as well in winter. Even then I am not convinced coconuts are longterm there.

Luqa, Malta...

 

Lampedusa is much drier by about 10 inches or so and just as warm as Malta too. Almost certainly the best spot in the Mediterranean to try a coconut. If you put one up against a south facing wall and irrigated it heavily in summer, but no irrigation in winter. This is the 1961-1990 figures so it will be higher now.

 

Here are the afternoon temperatures around Europe on Monday. Generally speaking it is pretty mild for everybody, except for southeast Europe (Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria etc). The heat is really starting to build in north Africa again now, which should buffer against the cold Siberian front and provide some warmth to southeast Europe later this week. Will it come in time for that Cypriot coconut, which I am assuming has been protected this winter before this event?

Very well written! (and good & wide research too!)

That's why I slightly disagree with your previous post where you said:

22 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I think it's just luck of the draw as well, so I wouldn't read too much into polar jets/vortex shifts and SSW events. It just so happens that southeast Europe and the Levant have had two abnormally cold spells this winter due to Siberian/arctic air masses coming down. Most years there won't be any, but every so often you will get one, or even two in a single winter like this year. A reminder that it can definitely happen, even if it doesn't happen often. Again, it's all down to luck of the draw really. Greece, Turkey, Syria etc got unlucky.

To me, the fact that many (low) records were broken plus the accumulated snow in areas where snow was very uncommon in March indicates a serious change in climate.
It is also worrying for what is yet to come in the next years...

[UK_Palms]

4 hours ago, Victor G. said:

Very well written! (and good & wide research too!)

That's why I slightly disagree with your previous post where you said:

To me, the fact that many (low) records were broken plus the accumulated snow in areas where snow was very uncommon in March indicates a serious change in climate.
It is also worrying for what is yet to come in the next years...

I do think it is just luck at the end of the day though. Sometimes you will get lucky and have a warmer than average winter, other times you will get unlucky and have a colder than average winter. It varies year on year. Southeast Europe just happens to have been very unlucky this winter in that the setups have allowed two unusually cold periods in January and March. Usually this doesn't happen, but it is still always a possibility. I don't think it is necessarily a sign of climate change. Next winter you will probably be abnormally mild again in southeast Europe.

We had bad winters here in the UK in 2010 and 2018 when we had lots of snow and major freezes. Usually that doesn't happen to us, but it is always a possibility each winter. A one in 10-15 year event. We'll probably have yet another event like that before 2030 gets here. Sooner or later the south coast of Spain will probably get hit badly too. Malaga had 2-3 foot of snow in places in January 1954 and the record low in the city is -4C. Cold potential is definitely there, although not to the same extent as southeast Europe (Greece, Romania, Turkey, Cyprus etc). Sooner or later it will set up for near record cold and snow again, both in Spain and the UK. This winter we have just been lucky in western Europe, unlike you guys in eastern Europe. 

 

The difference is the south coast of Spain may get this type of event once every 25-50 years or so when a big arctic blast manages to punch through Europe. Whereas snow events like this seem to happen every 3-4 years on the Greek islands when a 'beast from the east' event travels across from the Siberian arctic. I suspect due to the level of technology and social media, everything is getting recorded now. When it snows on a Greek island, videos appear on Twitter immediately and it gets shown on the news. Everyone has a video phone and social media accounts. That wouldn't have happened 10-20 years ago.

So it isn't necessarily happening more often, but rather just better documented. Also not to downplay the cold in Cyprus, but it was only the record for the month of March not a record across all months. It's not that uncommon to set monthly records. I had my coldest May temperature on record last year. It happens. If it was the coldest winter temperature ever on record in Cyprus that would be something else and certainly warrant climate change discussion, however it is just a monthly record. Cyprus will break more monthly heat and cold records in the coming years.

Edited March 14, 2022 by UK_Palms

[southathens]

11 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I think Kasos being such a small island also helps it stay so mild on cold nights. Bigger islands like Crete and Cyprus seem to get pretty cold due to having such large land surface areas that cool down rapidly on clear nights during winter. I suspect Lampedusa is the best location in the Mediterranean to grow coconuts, followed by Malta and then Kasos, purely due to how mild it is on the coldest nights there. It helps that Lampedusa is quite a bit drier as well in winter. Even then I am not convinced coconuts are longterm there.

Lampedusa is much drier by about 10 inches or so and just as warm as Malta too. Almost certainly the best spot in the Mediterranean to try a coconut. If you put one up against a south facing wall and irrigated it heavily in summer, but no irrigation in winter. This is the 1961-1990 figures so it will be higher now.

 

Excellent post! 

Here is the Kasos data for a direct comparison 

 

As you will notice Kasos is actually even drier compared to Lampedusa with a clear hot semi-arid (BSh) climate. It is currently Greece's second driest station from the NOA stations network.  You are correct about the bigger islands such as Crete and Cyprus which seem to be much more prone to lower temperatures compared to smaller well sheltered islands such as Kasos and Lampedusa.  Kasos being the southernmost of the small islands in the Mediterranean (excluding the islands south of Crete that seem to get influenced by their proximity to Crete) and well sheltered between Karpathos and Crete. In my mind Kasos is indeed the mildest of any small island we have in the Med. This is obvious from the absolute minimums as well in Kasos with an all time low of 3°C from the HNMS station and the second lowest again from the HNMS station at 4.6°C ( 2.7 °C and 4.2°C respective values from the NOA station in Kasos) !!!

Currently there are only 3 locations in Greece where we do not have an official meteorological reading of snow ever registered, in fact in these areas we do not have a single reliable report of snow . These are: Kasos airport, Kastellorizo airport and the city of Rhodes. There is some debate among the locals as to whether the city of Rhodes saw sleet or snowfall in 1987 but the official records give rain for that day.  Both Kasos and Rhodes islands have seen snow of course in higher elevations and in fact some coastal areas of Rhodes saw snow for their first time in their recorded history in January of 2022!!! While on the other hand as you correctly point out Cyprus seems to be bit more ''continental'' and we have had reliable snowfalls registering on all the coastal cities of Cyprus with much lower absolute minimums compared to Kasos. So I think you are spot on regarding the size of larger Med islands being a crucial factor. 

Now about the snowfalls in the rest of the Greek islands. Snow can be much more frequent in the central Aegean islands due to the ''prosinemos'' weather effect we have described in the past. This is the zone stretching from Andros island to Crete and the islands just south of Crete. Those islands (which are many) can see decent snowfalls with good snow accumulations due to being in the ''prosinemos zone'' which has as a main characteristic very low humidity and dew points just before the snow events and extreme intensity and rapidity of precipitations which falls on the ground as snow and soon after the snow thaws as dew points increase. However we need to be careful, remember that snowfalls on the Greek islands almost always happen with positive Ts due to the effect that I have described above. Snowfalls on their own mean nothing in the Greek islands since we have seen areas as far south as Ierapetra in Crete getting decent snowfalls with +7°C or +8 °C.  While it is remarkable to snow on the Greek islands (and of course beautiful) it does not say anything on the actual cold potential of these areas. In fact it only serves to confuse people who think these islands are colder than they really are. 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Manos33