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Manos33

Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

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Alicante

Please, take this post as informative. As it's useful information about the climate and why you can see exotic/tropical palms, plants and fruits that can you would never thought you'll find in Europe. I won't reply to any tryout of climate comparison because that's not the main point of this post. After this has been explained, let's begin:
 

1 hour ago, Aceraceae said:

Yeah I thought Malaga was a royal. It has chillier winters than Israel or other Mediterranean islands. The only plus of Malaga over Haifa or Tel Aviv might be less mid-winter rain. Right now it's been rainy and cool in eastern Mediterranean. 

Málaga and all of the coastal stretch of southern Spain have considerably warmer winter highs than any Mediterranean island (at least when we compare official stations with 30-year climate normals, rooftop stations with 10 years of data don't count) except for Cyprus which is geographically in the Middle East and of course Israel has warmest winters. 

That area of Spain has the warmest winter highs (by official/reliable high averages) in all of Geographical Europe. Cyprus and Israel are not Geographically part of Europe. But take account of what I've said: winter highs. This is the most important factor when growing most tropical plants, this includes palms, fruits and trees. The exotic flora itself. 

The prove is all of the tropical palm / trees / fruits / plants / flowers that grow there. Look at the Royals out there. They aren't matched anywhere else in Europe. The oldest Roystonea in Málaga dates back to 1850 which is already +170 years old. An almost 2 century old Roystonea in Europe sounds like fiction, but it exists in Málaga, actually. 

nadales.jpg

Here you got Málaga's official 1981-2010 averages in the airport. The city is about 1ºC warmer. http://www.aemet.es/en/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=6155A&k=and
Here you got Motril's official 1981-2010 averages. The station is located at the port, no UHI nearby. https://worldweather.wmo.int/en/city.html?cityId=2189

To see winter highs as warm as these anywhere in the Mediterranean Basin (except for that southern coastal stretch of Spain) you have to go to what's already Middle East or Africa. That southern coastline is naturally protected by the enormous Sierra Nevada mountain range which actually has the highest peak in the Iberian Peninsula. 
 

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Alicante
4 hours ago, ego said:

The one in Malaga is in a pot! Anyway, one of the only 5 coconuts in Europe.

It's actually in a pot however all of the Coconuts that are 24/7 365 outside in Europe without protection (such as the Málaga one) are inside pots except for the Cyprus one which is Geographically in the Middle East / Asia and of course Cyprus has warmer winters than anywhere else in Geographical Europe, although Tel Aviv is even slightly warmer. 

The thing is that, the Málaga coconut remains unprotected 24/7 and it's indeed in a naturally sheltered spot and it gets as much sun as possible. The concrete near it also acts as a heat trap. The thing is that it had a "smaller brother" (the link posted by Phoenikakias shows extended info) that died because of stronger winds. This one survived. 

It's not just thriving but also growing, as you can see it's not a bad size and much less giving the fact it's in Europe and it's outdoors since 2014, this is it's 8th winter outside unprotected! Of course being in a pot gives it advantages but hey 8 winters unprotected (not even with a thin foil, as this is just an experiment, an experiment that's lasting longer than expected) is just crazy and it just also proves the importance of daytime highs, as that area of southern Spain is as warm as Europe can get during winter (highs, as I've explained before) if we base ourselves on official and reliable data. Also the other species of palm trees capable to grow there (and their size) prove this as well. It's because it's very naturally protected from the north and the proximity to the Atlantic Ocean keep consistent mild breezes that block cold spells during most of the time. It's a combination of many factors. 

1 hour ago, ego said:

I think the most important factor here is not lattitude but microclimates and soil. That coconut in Cyprus and perhaps in Malaga have probably found a favourable microclimate and very well draining soil. Those are more important than the exact geographical location.

I think it's a mixture of both. In lower latitudes, they get better UV during winters, that's why they can stand a real chance in SoCal or Israel. 

Of course microclimates are also important. As well as the winter heat / daytime highs. As I've been learning over the years in PalmTalk (well and it has been proven by the Corona, Ca coconuts) they really prefer to have warm daytime temps during winter with cool lows rather than having cool highs with mild lows. 

That's why coconuts thrive in Salton City, CA with 20-21ºC winter highs and 4-5ºC winter lows but they don't thrive in European islands with 14-15ºC winter highs and 10-11ºC winter lows! Well, also because Salton doesn't receive such a big amount of winter rain, it's sunnier and they have stronger UV during winter. 

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Alicante

And I, personally think, based on reliable averages (I don't count rooftop stations as reliable) that southeastern Crete is the best spot for trying a coconut in Greece. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120723195319/http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Ierapetra

 

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RedRabbit
26 minutes ago, Alicante said:

The thing is that, the Málaga coconut remains unprotected 24/7 and it's indeed in a naturally sheltered spot and it gets as much sun as possible. The concrete near it also acts as a heat trap. The thing is that it had a "smaller brother" (the link posted by Phoenikakias shows extended info) that died because of stronger winds. This one survived. 

It's not just thriving but also growing, as you can see it's not a bad size and much less giving the fact it's in Europe and it's outdoors since 2014, this is it's 8th winter outside unprotected!

Wow! After seeing the Veitchia in Parque de Malaga I thought coconuts would have a chance there. I’m glad to hear one is still alive after 8 years! :D

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Manos33
3 hours ago, Alicante said:

And I, personally think, based on reliable averages (I don't count rooftop stations as reliable) that southeastern Crete is the best spot for trying a coconut in Greece. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120723195319/http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Ierapetra

 

Yeah we have been through the same over in wikipedia. The NOA Davis stations are the best possible met stations in urban environments and according to the scientific publications of NOA these stations are as reliable as WMO stations regardless of positioning since they are scrutinized by  one of the oldest and most well known research institutes in Southern Europe. Check the published article which describes the excellent quality protocol of all NOA DAVIS stations.

https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/Raw Materials/2017-Geoscience_Data_Journal-stations.pdf

Having said that Kasos which is by far the warmest area of geographical Europe in the winter the past 13 years is by far the best candidate in Greece in terms of T's to grow a coco. The only real problem here is how arid the climate in Kasos is

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
3 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

where Lindos is about 69 C annual temp, with a lot of sun.

Lindos is actually 21.9C or 71.5F mean annual the past few years. It actually beats the warmest met stations for the same period in the Canaries just north of the Tropic of Cancer. This is amazing for an area in geographic Europe situated at 36N latitude!

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Aceraceae

How arid might now matter since desert cocos are somehow pulled off. La Quinta, California has colder record lows, but much hotter and sunnier winter days, and with extremely low, Las Vegas humidity. They will need irrigating in any Mediterranean summer, which is too arid, while the winters are too chilly and wet. 

Looks like Kasos and Malta didn't go below 40 in this recent cold. Maybe they are a chilly zone 11 like the Channel Islands off Southern California (with hotter summer)

Edited by Aceraceae

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Alicante
8 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Yeah we have been through the same over in wikipedia. The NOA Davis stations are the best possible met stations in urban environments and according to the scientific publications of NOA these stations are as reliable as WMO stations regardless of positioning since they are scrutinized by  one of the oldest and most well known research institutes in Southern Europe. Check the published article which describes the excellent quality protocol of all NOA DAVIS stations.

https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/Raw Materials/2017-Geoscience_Data_Journal-stations.pdf

Having said that Kasos which is by far the warmest area of geographical Europe in the winter the past 13 years is by far the best candidate in Greece in terms of T's to grow a coco. The only real problem here is how arid the climate in Kasos is

No, I remember you've done a similar thread here on PalmTalk in 2016 and you have posted by yourself a link of "UK World Weather" in the first post where you have posted the same as here on PalmTalk. Many people on both forums doubt about that data because they're rooftop stations affected by nearby concrete and buildings. 

By WMO standards a station has to be on the ground with no immediate things nearby, that's why even if they're accurate temp-wise, they are artificially influenced, and that's why they aren't WMO approved. I see this has been said by other people in 2016 and in the UKW forum and so on, but I won't start that discussion as I already know your answer. 

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/49895-palm-trees-in-south-crete-greece/

Thing is that, Kasos is not "by far the warmest area of Europe" as you say, because if we take as valid the data you have posted, Kasos has the following: 

December TM 17.6
January TM 15.9
February TM 16.5
March TM 17.4

These temps are too cool for a coconut. Also this is 2010-2021 data coming from a rooftop station that's not HNMS/WMO data, but it's still too cool for a coconut.

The problem in Kasos is not the aridity, is that it lacks real warmth during winter so that's why it's not able to grow coconuts. There are quite a few places in Europe with higher winter daytime temps than the ones found in Kasos, even the SE part of Crete in Greece (I remember in 2016 you were saying this about Crete, now you've changed the paradigm to Kasos) but Crete has warmer winter daytime high temperatures. So does southern Spain, Portugal, Cyprus, and probably Malta and Lampedusa. 

May I remember you: Winter daytime highs. These are the most important when trying a coconut. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring this fact and just comparing the means. A coconut prefers 21ºC highs and 4ºC lows rather than 15ºC highs and 10ºC lows. That's why they grow in inland SoCal but not in European islands. 

And out of Greece, the warmest winter daytime highs are found in southern Crete. The HNMS link I posted above shows +16ºC in all winter months. Kasos doesn't. 

 

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Aceraceae
3 hours ago, Aceraceae said:

How arid might now matter since desert cocos are somehow pulled off. La Quinta, California has colder record lows, but much hotter and sunnier winter days, and with extremely low, Las Vegas humidity. They will need irrigating in any Mediterranean summer, which is too arid, while the winters are too chilly and wet. 

Looks like Kasos and Malta didn't go below 40 in this recent cold. Maybe they are a chilly zone 11 like the Channel Islands off Southern California (with hotter summer)

Mean to say how arid it is might not matter. 

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Alicante
9 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Lindos is actually 21.9C or 71.5F mean annual the past few years. It actually beats the warmest met stations for the same period in the Canaries just north of the Tropic of Cancer. This is amazing for an area in geographic Europe situated at 36N latitude!

These targeted comparisons between subtropical / tropical islands to places that get boosted up during summers have no real sense at all. This is a gardening forum. Things are proven here with pictures of exotic palm trees / fruits / flora in general, not by boasting up because of some weather stations. We got convinced that there is a Roystonea Regia in Menton, France, because we saw the pics. Repeating something several times without showing proofs is pointless, as I've said before, this is a gardening forum.

Actually, there are warmer stations in the Canary Islands (AEMET, I won't count non-official ones) like Puerto del Mogán which actually has an annual average of around 23ºC / 73.4F but again it's pointless to compare Lindos to Tenerife because they're a world apart in winters. There are places in mainland Europe that surpass Funchal, Madeira in annual Ts yet no one of them can even dream about what's growing on in Madeira. Like coconuts. Because Funchal has warmer winters than anywhere in Europe can just dream about. 

And look, about Lindos, I'm not saying the NOA stations are not reliable. I'm just saying that some (such as the Lindos one) are artificially influenced because of their location. The Lindos data has been putted in doubt by many people in all of the forums you've posted such data because it's incredibly warmer than all of the closely located nearby stations. What we really know is that is on a rooftop surrounded by concrete and tarmac/asphalt. Just look at the Geoscience Data Journal you have posted. Pics C and D show properly placed stations. They have to be placed on the ground, temperatures are always much warmer in rooftops, even much more if they're also surrounded by asphalt, concrete or other buildings.
 

Edited by Alicante

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Alicante
13 minutes ago, Aceraceae said:

Mean to say how arid it is might not matter. 

Exactly, that's why we can see coconuts around the Salton Sea in California or in highland places in South Africa. They can be properly irrigated everywhere.

Coconuts can even stand freezes as long as they get their daily dose of winter warmth. And that doesn't happen in Europe. In Europe we can push and try in locations with the highest daily temps (or average high temperatures) but if we get to "ultra mild" islands with +10ºC January winter lows, the coconut won't thrive in, plus the 14-15ºC highs and the strong season lag when +20ºC highs are just found already by late April, that makes the coconut to die. But the best thing is to try one and get out of any doubts! 

 

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Alicante
12 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Wow! After seeing the Veitchia in Parque de Malaga I thought coconuts would have a chance there. I’m glad to hear one is still alive after 8 years! :D

Hey Red Rabbit, yes we would see how much will it last! The Veitchias are now found in quite a few places in the southern coast of Spain. They also fruit! ^_^

Veitchia-Malaga-1.jpg

Veitchia-Malaga-2.jpg

Here you got a partial list of what grows in the Parque de Málaga. There are Veitchia Arecina and Veitchia Joannis! https://parquedemalaga.wordpress.com/palms/

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Manos33
3 hours ago, Alicante said:

These targeted comparisons between subtropical / tropical islands to places that get boosted up during summers have no real sense at all. 
 

As far as I understand your thesis is that mean maximum T's is proving a more consistent factor with helping coco's thrive. Thus Lindos with really good maximums year round should be fine

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Manos33
4 hours ago, Alicante said:


And look, about Lindos, I'm not saying the NOA stations are not reliable. I'm just saying that some (such as the Lindos one) are artificially influenced because of their location. The Lindos data has been putted in doubt by many people in all of the forums you've posted such data because it's incredibly warmer than all of the closely located nearby stations. What we really know is that is on a rooftop surrounded by concrete and tarmac/asphalt. Just look at the Geoscience Data Journal you have posted. Pics C and D show properly placed stations. They have to be placed on the ground, temperatures are always much warmer in rooftops, even much more if they're also surrounded by asphalt, concrete or other buildings.
 

Actually that's not true. The only doubts for the extremely reliable NOA stations come either from you in wikipedia or a couple of other places you participate or from one more Portuguese user. I mean come on, we have been through these things in the past over in wiki. And of course I get why this happens since it directly attacks your narrative that it is impossible for a location in Europe to actually beat the warmest areas of the Canaries annually. I know how it feels because until I run the comparisons myself I could not believe it. But it is true. Now if you look at the NOA Journal you will notice that the discrepancies are next to non existent  due to the scrutiny of Greece's oldest research institute.  I understand that you might not be fully aware of met stations specs but DAVIS stations are specifically designed for urban settings and specifically for combatting any T biases through their state of the art artificial fan aspiration. That's why they are the best of the best and that is why top research institutes trust them and include them in their networks. 

Now I am sure you remember our conversations over in wiki where locals have tried to inform you about Lindos's amazing T performance. The Greek meteo community has observationally known for decades how hot and suffocating Lindos can be, especially in the summers but now at long last we have the official scientific data from the National Observatory of Athens to back it up . Hell, I even freaked out with an almost 15C difference between Rhodes city and Lindos in a matter of a few hours when I visited the area many years back. It is just impossible to understand the huge effect of foehn winds on the leeward side of Rhodes and this is why I am inviting you to visit the place to experience first hand what it means to spend a single summer day in Lindos! Apart from that try visiting any tourist website and you will see the experiences shared by tourists. Some of them are really informative. 

I am also posting for you some very interesting tweets coming from weather experts regarding Lindos performance 

 

 

 

 

Now most importantly it is because of this extreme reliability of these stations that Greece's national meteorological representative to the WMO has been consistently including the NOA stations data in their reports to WMO from 2012 onwards

Here is an example of an HNMS report including the NOA stations in their WMO annual report. 

http://www.emy.gr/emy/el/pdf/2014_GRsignificantEVENT_gr.pdf

Edited by Manos33

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Alicante
5 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Actually that's not true. The only doubts for the extremely reliable NOA stations come either from you in wikipedia or a couple of other places you participate or from one more Portuguese user. I mean come on, we have been through these things in the past over in wiki. And of course I get why this happens since it directly attacks your narrative that it is impossible for a location in Europe to actually beat the warmest areas of the Canaries annually. I know how it feels because until I run the comparisons myself I could not believe it. But it is true. Now if you look at the NOA Journal you will notice that the discrepancies are next to non existent  due to the scrutiny of Greece's oldest research institute.  I understand that you might not be fully aware of met stations specs but DAVIS stations are specifically designed for urban settings and specifically for combatting any T biases through their state of the art artificial fan aspiration. That's why they are the best of the best and that is why top research institutes trust them and include them in their networks. 

Now I am sure you remember our conversations over in wiki where locals have tried to inform you about Lindos's amazing T performance. The Greek meteo community has observationally known for decades how hot and suffocating Lindos can be, especially in the summers but now at long last we have the official scientific data from the National Observatory of Athens to back it up . Hell, I even freaked out with an almost 15C difference between Rhodes city and Lindos in a matter of a few hours when I visited the area many years back. It is just impossible to understand the huge effect of foehn winds on the leeward side of Rhodes and this is why I am inviting you to visit the place to experience first hand what it means to spend a single summer day in Lindos! Apart from that try visiting any tourist website and you will see the experiences shared by tourists. Some of them are really informative. 

I am also posting for you some very interesting tweets coming from weather experts regarding Lindos performance 

 

 

 

 

Now most importantly it is because of this extreme reliability of these stations that Greece's national meteorological representative to the WMO has been consistently including the NOA stations data in their reports to WMO from 2012 onwards

Here is an example of an HNMS report including the NOA stations in their WMO annual report. 

http://www.emy.gr/emy/el/pdf/2014_GRsignificantEVENT_gr.pdf

Actually many people doubt on your claims and you know it better than anyone. You have literally posted a thread from the UK Weather Forum where you have been arguing with other users about the same stuff as you do with me now. You have argued in this same thread with @Cluster which actually said basically the same as I did and you keep just trying to convince him as you try to convince me now. It's not "the doubts come from me" they come from anyone that investigate a little bit on your repetitive claims. Either Palmtalk, either UK Weather or either Wikipedia or whatsoever. You argue with anyone that dares to put your data in doubt...

The Lindos station is located on a rooftop as recognised by yourself on that UK forum under the username Mesogeiakos (you have posted the link in this thread saying it's you, 1st page) just as other Greek users in that forum said is a rooftop station. I'm literally saying that stations provide reliable values on Grass, rooftop ones give very inflated values and this is known by anyone that read/studies anything about weather. I'm not saying rooftop stations are not valuable, they are, but they don't provide realistic data. And many people said you this in the past as well.

You are literally the only person in the world claiming anywhere in Europe has 22°C averages and 11b Hardiness Zones. And if someone dares to contradict you, you start with the nonsense and making assumptions. There are many people that put that data on doubt plus it has been proven to be rooftop stations and not ground placed ones, that's why they aren't accepted by WMO standards unlike the HNMS stations are. I don't know in which language I have to repeat I didn't say they're "unreliable" but these temps are inflated as they're on a building's rooftop surrounded by concrete. By trying to convince anyone repeating the same stuff you just get the exact opposite reaction.

 

It seems you can't accept the fact that there are different opinions than your personal one, and if someone dares to say something different you always do the same. Manos (or Mesogeiakos) you have a long story of doing the same in several European weather forums such as Tutiempo or MeteoPT where I saw you discussing with a dozen of Spanish or Portuguese users trying to impose "Greece is by far the warmest place in Europe" and arguing with anyone providing different data. It's not that you are right nor convince anyone, it's just that people gets tired from answering because you will never accept any objective opinion/data which is not the same as yours.

At this point, I can't believe anything you say (unless if you provide a reliable source too) because you are well known in European weather forums where you try to convince anyone that says anything different to your claims. You have done it on Tu Tiempo forums, on the UK Weather forums, on Meteo PT forums, and God knows on how many more. It seems you got it with PalmTalk now, but this is a gardening forum. Things are proven here with pics of exotics and palm trees, not by written personal claims. My last post regarding this topic as it's clueless to discuss anything with you as you just try to impose your opinion on anyone else and if they don't accept it you just start saying "they don't want to accept the facts" ok whatever dude. I won't reply more to any of your climate claims, as this is just pointless. I will reply to your palm/gardening related ones though, as this is Palmtalk. Happy Weekend. 

Edited by Alicante
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Manos33
52 minutes ago, Alicante said:

you start with the nonsense

 

Ok, take it easy my friend. I think you are getting overly passionate over trivial things. I have no idea what exactly triggers you and you respond like that but I understand it can be hard when reliable meteorological data question one's POV and especially when these are long held beliefs.  But what I am trying to show you is that the Lindos Meteorological station which is a part of NOA's  Institute of Environmental Research and Sustainable Development as you can see below is an extremely reliable meteorological station.

2029037896_Screenshot2022-01-28at5_34_19PM.png.c923d71593163e550e163b557edab41a.png

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/NOAAYR.TXT

The point I am making and that you seem to keep missing is that DAVIS met stations are specifically designed for urban settings. They are built to be installed in various areas for research reasons, be it locations near tarmacs, rooftops or any other areas where passive shielded WMO stations would overestimate T's due to lack of mechanical ventilation which gives T biases in these areas. That is the purpose of Davis stations when installed in urban settings ! So, through the installation of Davis met stations scientists can get reliable and unbiased Ts due to the fan aspiration of these stations and in turn get reliable met data without the Ts inflation a passive shielded WMO station without fan aspiration would give if installed in these locations. 

In fact, just by running a few comparisons between passive WMO stations and Fan Aspirated Davis stations you can easily see that in most cases the Davis stations used by NOA actually provide a negative T bias compared to passive WMO stations. I have been studying the Athens met stations for over 10 years now and from a purely observational point of view most Davis NOA stations actually significantly underestimate maximum temperatures compared to WMO stations in Athens located in nearby areas.

Simply put what I am saying is that in all probability if you install a passive WMO station in the same location where the Lindos NOA station is currently located I would expect to see up to 0.3C higher Ts compared to the NOA station. This is because the fan aspiration of Davis stations effectively completely cancel out any T inflation from surroundings. I would not be surprised if we got a mean annual of around 22.2C to 22.4C should we install a passive WMO station in the same location on the grass in Lindos next to the NOA station. Sure a rooftop station is not ideal but the readings you would get if you installed a WMO passive station in the grass in Lindos would probably be even higher compared to the values of the fan aspirated NOA station. 

I think you are confused on how mechanical fan aspiration works and the benefits it has when we need to conduct research in urban stations. That's why Davis fan aspirated stations are the absolute best meteorological stations we can get when we conduct research in urban areas. 

Edited by Manos33

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Alicante
19 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

 

Ok, take it easy my friend. I think you are getting overly passionate over trivial things. I have no idea what exactly triggers you and you respond like that but I understand it can be hard when reliable meteorological data question one's POV and especially when these are long held beliefs.  But what I am trying to show you is that the Lindos Meteorological station which is a part of NOA's  Institute of Environmental Research and Sustainable Development as you can see below is an extremely reliable meteorological station.

2029037896_Screenshot2022-01-28at5_34_19PM.png.c923d71593163e550e163b557edab41a.png

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/NOAAYR.TXT

The point I am making and that you seem to keep missing is that DAVIS met stations are specifically designed for urban settings. They are built to be installed in various areas for research reasons, be it locations near tarmacs, rooftops or any other areas where passive shielded WMO stations would overestimate T's due to lack of mechanical ventilation which gives T biases in these areas. That is the purpose of Davis stations when installed in urban settings ! So, through the installation of Davis met stations scientists can get reliable and unbiased Ts due to the fan aspiration of these stations and in turn get reliable met data without the Ts inflation a passive shielded WMO station without fan aspiration would give if installed in these locations. 

In fact, just by running a few comparisons between passive WMO stations and Fan Aspirated Davis stations you can easily see that in most cases the Davis stations used by NOA actually provide a negative T bias compared to passive WMO stations. I have been studying the Athens met stations for over 10 years now and from a purely observational point of view most Davis NOA stations actually significantly underestimate maximum temperatures compared to WMO stations in Athens. 

Simply put what I am saying is that in all probability if you install a passive WMO station in the same location where the Lindos NOA station is currently located I would expect to see up to 0.3C higher Ts compared to the NOA station. This is because the fan aspiration of Davis stations effectively completely cancel out any T inflation from surrounding. I would not be surprised if we got a mean annual of around 22.2C to 22.4C should we install a passive WMO station in the same location in Lindos next to the NOA station.

I think you are confused on how mechanical fan aspiration works and the benefits it has when we need to conduct research in urban stations. That's why Davis fan aspirated stations are the absolutely best meteorological stations we can get when we conduct research in urban areas. 

Manos my friend... did you find any Veitchia in Lindos? Maybe Dragon fruits? These are good exotic indicators! :greenthumb:

Edited by Alicante

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Janni

I do not want to interrupt your discussion. However, I just wanted to mention, that you have similar discussions on many weather stations around the world. One famous example is a weather station here in Germany, which recorded the latest all time heat record.

In the end you have to aks yourself: does it really matter if the weather station has a small inaccuracy? If so, it cannot be much, because it still is an official weather station. Furthermore: would it be the missing T's for a Cocos or are there other factors limiting the survivability of a cocos, such as massive winter rains? I think the latter is more severe, however I strongly believe, that you can find certain spots with favourable micro climates, even for cocos in the mediterranean area - no matter if in Spain, Italy, Malty, Cyprus or Greece.

Personally, I think you have the best chances for a Cocos in Greece in some spots on crete. Take a look at the records of the weather stations of Falasarna and Lentas. The biggest advantage of Falasarna besides the high yearly mean T's are the relatively warm winter T's, with occasional real winter heat. Unfortunately you don't have real winter heat neither on Rhodes, nor on Kassos or Karpathos.

 

@Alicante: you will not find any Veitchia or other rare palms easily in Greece. That is not because of the climatic conditions, but because of the lack of availability. 

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Manos33
33 minutes ago, Janni said:

In the end you have to aks yourself: does it really matter if the weather station has a small inaccuracy?

Right, but what I am trying to argue here is that NOA Davis Fan Aspirated stations whose data I am using consistently  are neither inaccurate nor problematic in any way even if they are installed in the worst possible areas.  Basically it does not matter at all if some of them are on rooftops, tarmac or what not.  All these T biases are effectively canceled out by the fan aspiration. That is why the National Observatory of Athens is using them and that is why HNMS is reporting their data to the WMO.

In fact they are much more sensitive to T biases due to this very fan aspiration and can give us a clearer idea compared to passive WMO stations in the same locations on the grass. It is just a shame that we have data for up to 15 years in most cases but as time passes we will be getting more and more data from the NOA stations in Greece.

Now regarding Crete, of course various areas on the island can give some extreme values but the problem is that these values are not consistent. In Falasarna for example you would need fohn winds consistently in the winter to push temperatures up. This is why I believe Kasos or Karpathos are better candidates for coco's. Kasos has a mean max of 15.9C in January during a period with 5 strong cold snaps in Greece the last decade. I bet that if we allow 5 to 10 more years of data we will get higher mean maxes (provided we do not get any other crazy cold snaps and return to normal winters). If the mean maxes in the winter are indeed the deciding factor for coco's because I am confused. I thought most people here argued that coco's needed high winter minimums. Now for some reason we keep getting posts on winter highs... 

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33

So out of curiosity I calculated the January mean maxes for the warmest NOA stations in Crete in terms of maximums:

Ierapetra (2008-2022): 15.7C

Falasarna (2010-2022): 15.9C

Lentas (2011-2022): 16.0C

Like I said above, the 5 cold snaps we had during the last decade in Greece have really taken their toll.  So Kasos for the same period is about the same or higher compared to Cretan stations. The difference here is that Kasos has amazing average minimum winter T's compared to Crete. 

Wouldn't the data above give an advantage to Kasos over Crete when it comes to cocos? 

Edited by Manos33
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Aceraceae

Maybe but it's probably that neither place can support cocos. Malaga seems to have warmer days and less winter rain. It's surprising that northernmost cocos latitude could jump from low 30s Bermuda/Israel/California desert to 36 degrees north Malaga Spain. 

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Manos33
1 hour ago, Aceraceae said:

Maybe but it's probably that neither place can support cocos. 

For Kasos we wouldn't know. I doubt anyone has tried due to the very few inhabitants of the island...and it's a pity because it really has the mildest winters in Europe on average. 

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Manos33

It appears that the National Observatory of Athens has actually recently published the averages of various of its stations. Lindos is one of them!  As expected Lindos, according to the official averages shown on the National Observatory of Athens website, registers a simple mean annual temperature of 21.9°C. I guess after all,  I wasn't the only person in the world to suggest that an area in Europe records a mean annual temperature of 22°C.

There was an experiment, I think from Maurice trying to grow cocos on the leeward side of Rhodes . If I remember correctly these cocos made it alive for a few months during the winter but still the location was probably not optimal (I think Lardos which is S of Lindos in the exposed to the Meltemi winds areas). What about Lindos itself? Do we know if anyone has actually tried cocos in Lindos proper? I mean the temperature data shown on the National Observatory of Athens website are just stunning for an area in Europe. 

 

1938923474_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_00_39AM.png.a3fbc421ed8e8ece5fc205bd0d5c4879.png

 

1457471799_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_01_45AM.png.406c3b9e1814a6f2508ef86c8cd2e146.png932268101_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_08_29AM.png.598bcd5432e40fbbbc38d13abf12600c.png

Screenshot 2022-02-01 at 6.01.12 AM.png

Edited by Manos33
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Manos33

I have now compiled the official Lindos climate averages as shown on climate section of the website of the National Observatory of Athens for easier future reference if anyone is interested.

I also found an interesting article about the tropical plants of Rhodes. Unfortunately the article is in Greek but you can use google translate to check it out! 

https://rodosreport.gr/tropika-fita-rodou/

2010629100_LINDOSOFFICIALMEANS.png.d6eac31558704602803afaf6afa1e2f7.png

 

Edited by Manos33

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Alicante
On 2/1/2022 at 5:16 AM, Manos33 said:

It appears that the National Observatory of Athens has actually recently published the averages of various of its stations. Lindos is one of them!  As expected Lindos, according to the official averages shown on the National Observatory of Athens website, registers a simple mean annual temperature of 21.9°C. I guess after all,  I wasn't the only person in the world to suggest that an area in Europe records a mean annual temperature of 22°C.

There was an experiment, I think from Maurice trying to grow cocos on the leeward side of Rhodes . If I remember correctly these cocos made it alive for a few months during the winter but still the location was probably not optimal (I think Lardos which is S of Lindos in the exposed to the Meltemi winds areas). What about Lindos itself? Do we know if anyone has actually tried cocos in Lindos proper? I mean the temperature data shown on the National Observatory of Athens website are just stunning for an area in Europe. 

 

1938923474_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_00_39AM.png.a3fbc421ed8e8ece5fc205bd0d5c4879.png

 

1457471799_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_01_45AM.png.406c3b9e1814a6f2508ef86c8cd2e146.png932268101_Screenshot2022-02-01at6_08_29AM.png.598bcd5432e40fbbbc38d13abf12600c.png

Screenshot 2022-02-01 at 6.01.12 AM.png

 

54 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I have now compiled the official Lindos climate averages as shown on climate section of the website of the National Observatory of Athens for easier future reference if anyone is interested.

I also found an interesting article about the tropical plants of Rhodes. Unfortunately the article is in Greek but you can use google translate to check it out! 

https://rodosreport.gr/tropika-fita-rodou/

2010629100_LINDOSOFFICIALMEANS.png.d6eac31558704602803afaf6afa1e2f7.png

 

Hello Manos, one question, how it can be 2010 - 2019 if the NOA station started working in April 2014 ? http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/

Btw, it's interesting how extreme are the summers in Lindos. Have you checked the official Karpathos data? I think it's available on OGIMET. 

Btw Lindos/Rhodes can grow much more palms than that article says, it's not too specifical. But some sensitive ones would suffer in such hot summers. Do you know the relative humidity out there? For coconuts the winter highs are still too low, but there are nice coconut alternatives like Beccariophoenix Alfredii and Ravenea Rivularis!

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Manos33
1 minute ago, Alicante said:

 

Hello Manos, one question, how it can be 2010 - 2019 if the NOA station started working in April 2014 ? http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/
 

I have no idea. I am just copying the NOA source as is. They could be unpublished data that we haven't seen. Sometimes NOA takes a few years before it actually publishes live a station. I can remember a few examples of such stations, but who knows. 

Now I wouldn't trust Ogimet for Greek data. HNMS is the go to source for WMO stations in Greece. In terms of winter highs I say we give Greece 5 to 10 years in hope we stop getting these unusual cold snaps and then we will see how Lindos does. 

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Alicante
On 1/29/2022 at 10:33 PM, Aceraceae said:

The Red Palm Weevil has obliterated dozens if not hundreds of thousands of palm trees all across Spain. Most noticeably in southern, southeastern and eastern Spain. 
Also on the Balearic Islands. It even arrived the north coast, but it didn't to that much damage. But it's sad, very sad to see what has happened. 

How did the Weevil affect in Greece? Italy? France? Malta? Cyprus? @Phoenikakias @Janni @gilles06 @Stelios @pietropuccio

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Victor G.
6 minutes ago, Alicante said:

The Red Palm Weevil has obliterated dozens if not hundreds of thousands of palm trees all across Spain. Most noticeably in southern, southeastern and eastern Spain. 
Also on the Balearic Islands. It even arrived the north coast, but it didn't to that much damage. But it's sad, very sad to see what has happened. 

How did the Weevil affect in Greece? Italy? France? Malta? Cyprus? @Phoenikakias @Janni @gilles06 @Stelios @pietropuccio

It's a catastrophe! I read an article a few months ago about how almost half of the palms in Greece have been eaten (it seems to affect the Phoenix dactilyfera & canariensis species more).

When I walk around in Athens, I can see a lot of dead palms. I also know some people who've lost theirs, because they didn't care to spray them against it.

Edited by Victor G.

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Alicante
5 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

It's a catastrophe! I read an article a few months ago about how almost half of the palms in Greece have been eaten (it seems to affect the Phoenix dactilyfera & canariensis species more).

When I walk around in Athens, I can see a lot of dead palms. I also know some people who've lost theirs, because they didn't care to spray them against it.

It especially affects CIDP (Phoenix Canariensis) it seems Dactylfera are somewhat hardier but yes they're the 2nd most affected ones. 

I've read that the Syagrus species are also very affected. At least Washingtonias aren't that affected, as in Mediterranean Areas after Phoenix species, Washingtonias are of course the most common ones. And yes it's very sad, I've seen how giant, extremely beautiful CIDP palms I've seen since for decades went down because of the DAMN BUG! :crying:

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Manos33
11 minutes ago, Alicante said:

Btw, it's interesting how extreme are the summers in Lindos. 

Also just a note on this observation.  During the summer most of the Aegean islands are caught in the midst of a specific air circulation called the Meltemi winds. These winds are powerful N winds that tend to dominate the Aegean non stop 24/7 between May and October. Their height is in the heart of the summer and especially during July and August. In the case of the leeward side of Rhodes as these powerful N winds cross from W to E from the Attavyros Mountain range towards the other surrounding mountains and hills they reach the leeward side of Rhodes significantly heated up.  Coupled with Lindos amazing orography we are talking about a 24/7 non stop foehn effect that never seizes during the summer which leads to these stunning and extreme T's. 

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Phoenikakias
10 hours ago, Alicante said:

The Red Palm Weevil has obliterated dozens if not hundreds of thousands of palm trees all across Spain. Most noticeably in southern, southeastern and eastern Spain. 
Also on the Balearic Islands. It even arrived the north coast, but it didn't to that much damage. But it's sad, very sad to see what has happened. 

How did the Weevil affect in Greece? Italy? France? Malta? Cyprus? @Phoenikakias @Janni @gilles06 @Stelios @pietropuccio

As already said by previous Greeks. Just one note on rpw. On the median strip of the main avenue in athenian Riviera used to exist the longest stretch of publicly planted CIDPs.  The whole population were wiped out by rpw and replaced by Washies. On a side note too, local P theophrastii shows considerably more resistance to rpw unless it is wounded.  Also main trunks of of dactylifera display resistance, but the main entrance gate for rpw infestation in latter case still remain the offshoots, particularly those of some size. 

However the biggest trouble is not the rpw but the Paysandisia. It affects almost all palm sp and has no size limitations. It has been just  not realized yet by locals, because of the limited interest in the cultivation of other palm spp than the common ones. In a very peculiar way, Paysandisia is by far less invasive than rpw, it neither spreads fast nor far from the starting spot. I keep in Athens on my balcony Chamaerops and Trachycarpus potted plants and keep them untreated so to speak as guinea pigs. They have never been infested, while plants of same genera in my provencial garden are every year primary targets of Paysandisia.

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Stelios
11 hours ago, Alicante said:

The Red Palm Weevil has obliterated dozens if not hundreds of thousands of palm trees all across Spain. Most noticeably in southern, southeastern and eastern Spain. 
Also on the Balearic Islands. It even arrived the north coast, but it didn't to that much damage. But it's sad, very sad to see what has happened. 

How did the Weevil affect in Greece? Italy? France? Malta? Cyprus? @Phoenikakias @Janni @gilles06 @Stelios @pietropuccio

The Red Palm Weevil killed most of the CIDP here in Cyprus. That's especially in private gardens and in public places that people trim the palm fronds that are still green. This might be a very big reason why the palms are infected like many mentioned here on PT. What I noticed so far, is that CIDP that they were planted along the motorways connecting the towns or the ones that grow in the countryside from seeds that germinated there, they mostly survived. Last week I was on the way to Larnaca airport on the east of the island, and along the motorway before the airport there are a lot of healthy CIDP. They are not trimmed and I didn't see any infected ones.

I'm not sure about other varieties of palms, but I don't trim any green palm fronds in my garden. My Ravenea rivularis and Bismarckias might be on the list of RPW.

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Manos33

Hi Stelios, I am not sure if you know but the National Observatory of Athens has installed a Davis fan aspirated station in downtown Nicosia from early 2020. You can check its data in the links below

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/nicosia/

 https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/nicosia/NOAAPRYR.TXT

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Stelios

Ευχαριστώ Μάνο. This is good information for the weather in Nicosia. I live in Paphos and the climate here is different. We have the most mild climate on the island. I check regularly the temps here at home (I'm about 3 miles inland) and is a bit warmer than the station at Paphos Airport which is on the coast.

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Manos33
On 2/5/2022 at 6:40 PM, Stelios said:

Ευχαριστώ Μάνο. This is good information for the weather in Nicosia. I live in Paphos and the climate here is different. We have the most mild climate on the island. I check regularly the temps here at home (I'm about 3 miles inland) and is a bit warmer than the station at Paphos Airport which is on the coast.

Ναι, ξέρω. Η Πάφος έχω την εντύπωση οτι έχει ηπιότερους χειμώνες ακόμα και από τη Λεμεσό. Σωστά θυμάμαι? Έχω καιρό να τσεκάρω τα στατιστικά της Κύπρου αλλά έχω μείνει με την εντύπωση οτι κατά μέσο όρο η Πάφος έχει τον πιο ήπιο καιρό τον χειμώνα, συν οτι χιονίζει πολύ πιο σπάνια Πάφο σε σχέση με άλλες παραλιακές περιοχές της Κύπρου.

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Stelios
9 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Ναι, ξέρω. Η Πάφος έχω την εντύπωση οτι έχει ηπιότερους χειμώνες ακόμα και από τη Λεμεσό. Σωστά θυμάμαι? Έχω καιρό να τσεκάρω τα στατιστικά της Κύπρου αλλά έχω μείνει με την εντύπωση οτι κατά μέσο όρο η Πάφος έχει τον πιο ήπιο καιρό τον χειμώνα, συν οτι χιονίζει πολύ πιο σπάνια Πάφο σε σχέση με άλλες παραλιακές περιοχές της Κύπρου.

Ναι έχεις δίκαιο. Η Πάφος έχει ηπιότερους χειμώνες ακόμα και από τη Λεμεσό. Η Λεμεσός είναι πιο κοντά στις ψηλότερες κορυφές του Τροόδους από ότι η Πάφος. Φέτος έχει αρκετό χιόνι, όχι μόνο στο ψηλότερο σημείο όπως είναι ο Όλυμπος (η Χιονίστρα όπως λέμε εδώ), αλλά και σε πιο χαμηλές ορεινές περιοχές γύρω από τη Λεμεσό. Έτσι η πόλη είναι πιο εκτεθειμένη από το κρύο ειδικά τη νύχτα. Η Λευκωσία έχει ακόμα πιο κρύες νύχτες.

Εδώ στην Πάφο υπάρχουν μεγάλες εκτάσεις με φυτείες μπανάνας και λόγω του κλίματος ευδοκιμούν και διάφορα είδη τροπικών φρούτων που είναι πιο δύσκολη η καλλιέργεια τους σε άλλες περιοχές του νησιού.

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Manos33

Confirmation from Greece's Climate Atlas that SE Rhodes alongside South Crete  and W/S Peloponnese have the highest mean annual sunshine in the country with over 3.100 hours per year.  The data below are only limited to HNMS Campbell-Stokes sunshine stations scattered throughout the country. There are a few more sunshine stations from NOA as well but they are fewer compared to the HNMS sunshine stations.

The pdf titled ''Το κλίμα της Ελλάδας'' (Greece's climate) is found in the HNMS Climate Atlas link below but unfortunately it is only in Greek.

http://climatlas.hnms.gr/sdi/

Here is the relevant screenshot

1299726013_Screenshot2022-02-08at7_28_34AM.png.d2c85242d3b4b7ce4c055cc32172b1c3.png

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33

So in summary we now have official confirmation from NOA official averages that Lindos has the highest mean annual T in the country with a mean annual T of 21.9C and simultaneous confirmation from official HNMS sunshine stations that SE Rhodes ( the wider area where Lindos in located) additionally has the highest mean annual sunshine in the country with over 3.100 hours.

So how does this climate combination help Lindos proper (and not nearby areas less exposed to foehn winds like Lardos) in terms of tropical plants? Would it be a bonus for cocos to grow there? I mean the high sunshine/ high T combination year round should somehow have an impact on tropical plants right?

Edited by Manos33
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Manos33
On 2/4/2022 at 12:09 AM, Manos33 said:

Also just a note on this observation.  During the summer most of the Aegean islands are caught in the midst of a specific air circulation called the Meltemi winds. These winds are powerful N winds that tend to dominate the Aegean non stop 24/7 between May and October. Their height is in the heart of the summer and especially during July and August. In the case of the leeward side of Rhodes as these powerful N winds cross from W to E from the Attavyros Mountain range towards the other surrounding mountains and hills they reach the leeward side of Rhodes significantly heated up.  Coupled with Lindos amazing orography we are talking about a 24/7 non stop foehn effect that never seizes during the summer which leads to these stunning and extreme T's. 

Also a tweet from the National Observatory of Athens explaining the same effect I described on the above post

 

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