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Manos33

Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

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mlovecan

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Cluster

Manos I understand what you are saying, tutiempo sometimes has faulty values that jump form nowhere, but other times it is exactly how it says. In this case there were some subsequent days with sustained low temperatures that led to the 1C reading and found other years with 2C in similar conditions, so it does not look like the usual random error. I guess I will not know till HNMS does a real report, I still do not understand why it is so hard to find official data at this age. I searched for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion#Climate as I thought there would be more data and it seems it has gone to -0.8 also in 2004 which is exactly what tutiempo says for this station, so 2017 was way warmer. I am pretty sure I have seen Ierapetra below 1.6 as well, I just don't have the data with me anymore, most certain Kasos has seen 2.x to3.x in my opinion.

We can't compare IPMA with HNMS though but I trust IPMA over most stations I have seen. You could check a davis station in Santa Maria island but it is not very reliable in terms of reports, if you check older data (like some years ago) I believe it was more consistent, now it stops reporting most of the nights and many days off.

https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IAZORESS2/graph/2019-02-22/2019-02-22/daily

Anyway this is going out of topic:P it won't matter if the lows don't drop below 5 C even, because cocos don't work like that. In tuTiempo I see max temps below 9C for a few days and that is what I would say to be dangerous for a coco, Azores don't have that kind of weather so they are safer in my opinion.

 

 

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Cluster
29 minutes ago, mlovecan said:

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would be nice to follow theirs and your efforts over the years and see them planted in a garden.

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Manos33
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Manos I understand what you are saying, tutiempo sometimes has faulty values that jump form nowhere, but other times it is exactly how it says. In this case there were some subsequent days with sustained low temperatures that led to the 1C reading and found other years with 2C in similar conditions, so it does not look like the usual random error. I guess I will not know till HNMS does a real report, I still do not understand why it is so hard to find official data at this age. I searched for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion#Climate as I thought there would be more data and it seems it has gone to -0.8 also in 2004 which is exactly what tutiempo says for this station, so 2017 was way warmer. I am pretty sure I have seen Ierapetra below 1.6 as well, I just don't have the data with me anymore, most certain Kasos has seen 2.x to3.x in my opinion.

Regarding Iraklio, I was referring to the NOA station temps. The HNMS station data are way older. The same goes for Ierapetra which I think has an HNMS station from the 50's!

Now just to showcase how unreliable the Tutiempo data are for Karpathos, let's begin by saying that all minimum values are rounded , which is completely wrong as HNMS always provides decimals. The rounded minimums are for all years btw. How did you miss that? and more importantly how can you trust these data to report them here?  It's probably a random copy/paste from incomprehensible data. Who knows

https://en.tutiempo.net/climate/02-2004/ws-167543.html

Now let's have a good laugh with the Tutiempo data for Karpathos!

Checking the cold snap of 2017 and comparing it with Kasos NOA I found that it gives a minimum of 4C on the 28th while Kasos NOA was close to 9C on that day . Btw the cold snap was not at the end of the month but on the 9th of Jan and for some reason it gives a higher min on that day compared to Kasos NOA. Go figure! It actually gives a random non existent prolonged cold snap at the end of Jan 2017 which of course never happened. If it does that for the more recent data then I bet the older data are simply useless.

https://en.tutiempo.net/climate/01-2017/ws-167543.html

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/data/kasos/2017-01.txt

You can also infer how crappy the tutiempo data are for Karpathos if you try to calculate the mean minimums against the Karpathos HNMS mean minimums from the climatic bulletins between 2011-2020 that I provided in my earlier post. From a quick look I found that the bias is huge, like close to 1C or 2C off either warmer or cooler. 

Anyhow, the tutiempo data are completely useless for Greece. We all know that in the Greek met community.  Trust me meteoclub has extremely reliable data, no relation to tutiempo. 

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

We can't compare IPMA with HNMS though

Why is that? I mean they both use Stevenson Screens with no fan ventilation passively shielded and I am pretty sure maintenance protocols are about the same for both countries. My understanding is that Portugal and Greece are very similar countries when it comes to public administration. Anyhow, my take is that HNMS and IPMA are both comparable and about the same level in terms of service provision to the general public. 

Btw, thanks for the Santa Maria station! I will check it out!

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
2 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

Maybe a good starting point would be to try simultaneously growing cocos in all the villages you mention, including Lindos! That should give us some valuable insight on how the area behaves!

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pietropuccio

Sorry Manos,

I got lost in this long discussion (I'm old :)). For the purposes of determining the zone by applying the USDA method to the letter, the average of the annual absolute minimums over an appropriate number of years is simply required (30 is recommended). What is this value for the location of interest? For the purposes of evaluating the probability of survival of the Cocos it is also useful to know the monthly average of the minimum temperatures of December, January, February and March. Alternatively can you indicate the site where to find them?

Many thanks

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Manos33
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

Sorry Manos,

I got lost in this long discussion (I'm old :)). For the purposes of determining the zone by applying the USDA method to the letter, the average of the annual absolute minimums over an appropriate number of years is simply required (30 is recommended). What is this value for the location of interest? For the purposes of evaluating the probability of survival of the Cocos it is also useful to know the monthly average of the minimum temperatures of December, January, February and March. Alternatively can you indicate the site where to find them?

Many thanks

Hi, yes due to climatological complexity of these locations unfortunately, we can not use the Rhodes (capital) long term data for Lindos since the climate is fundamentally different over there. The same applies for Kasos/Karpathos where unfortunately we do not have the long term climate data from Greece's met office (HNMS) and that's why we focus on what is readily available for this locations, limiting us to around 10-12 years from the NOA stations.

Also I realize that I hadn't included March in my analysis for Kasos/Karpathos but I focused on what we call the ''meteorological winter'' which is according to WMO Dec,Jan,Feb. I will take a further look and I will add the March data and get back to you.

So the data for Kasos and Lindos can be found here:

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/

Unfortunately the site is in Greek, you will have to use the drop down menu and then manually make the calculations on your own. However I have calculated in earlier posts the means of absolute minimums for the period 2010-2021 for Kasos and these are as follows:

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  

Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Again I will get back to you about March. What do you make of these data so far?

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
8 hours ago, Manos33 said:

So the data for Kasos and Lindos can be found here:

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/

Unfortunately the site is in Greek, you will have to use the drop down menu and then manually make the calculations on your own. However I have calculated in earlier posts the means of absolute minimums for the period 2010-2021 for Kasos and these are as follows:

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  

Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Again I will get back to you about March. What do you make of these data so far?

Hello pietropuccio

I have now calculated the mean minimums for March. Below all the relevant data that might help you infer how cocos will do. Please let me know what you think!Thank you

Period 2010-2021

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  . Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Mar

Mean Min: 12.9C

Edited by Manos33

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bubba

Great to see Maurice is working this! If he is onboard, collectively, there must be a realistic possibility of success and break the current world record!

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pietropuccio

Many thanks Manos
going around the net I found these data, do you know them?
The monthly minimums are important because a young cocos goes in distress if minimum temperatures between 11 and 13 ° C persist for several days, lower temperatures easily lead to death (cell proliferation in the meristem stops around 11-12 ° C).

 

 

Rhodes (city) .jpg

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Manos33
13 minutes ago, pietropuccio said:

Many thanks Manos
going around the net I found these data, do you know them?
The monthly minimums are important because a young cocos goes in distress if minimum temperatures between 11 and 13 ° C persist for several days, lower temperatures easily lead to death (cell proliferation in the meristem stops around 11-12 ° C).

Yes, these are the  official Rhodes (capital) data from HNMS.

So even 12C to 14C minimums usually seen in Kasos during the winter will be a problem... 

Edited by Manos33

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pietropuccio
1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Yes, these are the  official Rhodes (capital) data from HNMS.

So even 12C to 14C minimums usually seen in Kasos during the winter will be a problem... 

Yes, for example only some palms in Malta seem to have survived, despite the particularly favorable position, unrepeatable in the open ground.
However I always say to try, the important is to know the difficulties to operate at the best and not to be under any illusions.
You could do as for the Cyprus coconut, protect it for the first few years, hoping that once it reaches a certain size it can survive, of course it will never look like the coconut trees in my photo.
Finally, I must add in fairness that the values of the Rhodes are lower for the winter than those of Palermo, where the coconut dies.

Good luck

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Manos33
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

Finally, I must add in fairness that the values of the Rhodes are lower for the winter than those of Palermo, where the coconut dies.

Good luck

Thank you for the input. Bear in mind however that the Rhodes averages incorporate many years. Its a peculiarity of Greece's met office not to provide 30 year averages but in some cases 40 or even 50 years. More recent data from Rhodes are significantly warmer. 

Let's hope that someone further south in Kasos or Karpathos will try to grow some cocos! It would be interesting

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