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Manos33

Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

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mlovecan

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Cluster

Manos I understand what you are saying, tutiempo sometimes has faulty values that jump form nowhere, but other times it is exactly how it says. In this case there were some subsequent days with sustained low temperatures that led to the 1C reading and found other years with 2C in similar conditions, so it does not look like the usual random error. I guess I will not know till HNMS does a real report, I still do not understand why it is so hard to find official data at this age. I searched for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion#Climate as I thought there would be more data and it seems it has gone to -0.8 also in 2004 which is exactly what tutiempo says for this station, so 2017 was way warmer. I am pretty sure I have seen Ierapetra below 1.6 as well, I just don't have the data with me anymore, most certain Kasos has seen 2.x to3.x in my opinion.

We can't compare IPMA with HNMS though but I trust IPMA over most stations I have seen. You could check a davis station in Santa Maria island but it is not very reliable in terms of reports, if you check older data (like some years ago) I believe it was more consistent, now it stops reporting most of the nights and many days off.

https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IAZORESS2/graph/2019-02-22/2019-02-22/daily

Anyway this is going out of topic:P it won't matter if the lows don't drop below 5 C even, because cocos don't work like that. In tuTiempo I see max temps below 9C for a few days and that is what I would say to be dangerous for a coco, Azores don't have that kind of weather so they are safer in my opinion.

 

 

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Cluster
29 minutes ago, mlovecan said:

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would be nice to follow theirs and your efforts over the years and see them planted in a garden.

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Manos33
1 hour ago, Cluster said:

Manos I understand what you are saying, tutiempo sometimes has faulty values that jump form nowhere, but other times it is exactly how it says. In this case there were some subsequent days with sustained low temperatures that led to the 1C reading and found other years with 2C in similar conditions, so it does not look like the usual random error. I guess I will not know till HNMS does a real report, I still do not understand why it is so hard to find official data at this age. I searched for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion#Climate as I thought there would be more data and it seems it has gone to -0.8 also in 2004 which is exactly what tutiempo says for this station, so 2017 was way warmer. I am pretty sure I have seen Ierapetra below 1.6 as well, I just don't have the data with me anymore, most certain Kasos has seen 2.x to3.x in my opinion.

Regarding Iraklio, I was referring to the NOA station temps. The HNMS station data are way older. The same goes for Ierapetra which I think has an HNMS station from the 50's!

Now just to showcase how unreliable the Tutiempo data are for Karpathos, let's begin by saying that all minimum values are rounded , which is completely wrong as HNMS always provides decimals. The rounded minimums are for all years btw. How did you miss that? and more importantly how can you trust these data to report them here?  It's probably a random copy/paste from incomprehensible data. Who knows

https://en.tutiempo.net/climate/02-2004/ws-167543.html

Now let's have a good laugh with the Tutiempo data for Karpathos!

Checking the cold snap of 2017 and comparing it with Kasos NOA I found that it gives a minimum of 4C on the 28th while Kasos NOA was close to 9C on that day . Btw the cold snap was not at the end of the month but on the 9th of Jan and for some reason it gives a higher min on that day compared to Kasos NOA. Go figure! It actually gives a random non existent prolonged cold snap at the end of Jan 2017 which of course never happened. If it does that for the more recent data then I bet the older data are simply useless.

https://en.tutiempo.net/climate/01-2017/ws-167543.html

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/data/kasos/2017-01.txt

You can also infer how crappy the tutiempo data are for Karpathos if you try to calculate the mean minimums against the Karpathos HNMS mean minimums from the climatic bulletins between 2011-2020 that I provided in my earlier post. From a quick look I found that the bias is huge, like close to 1C or 2C off either warmer or cooler. 

Anyhow, the tutiempo data are completely useless for Greece. We all know that in the Greek met community.  Trust me meteoclub has extremely reliable data, no relation to tutiempo. 

1 hour ago, Cluster said:

We can't compare IPMA with HNMS though

Why is that? I mean they both use Stevenson Screens with no fan ventilation passively shielded and I am pretty sure maintenance protocols are about the same for both countries. My understanding is that Portugal and Greece are very similar countries when it comes to public administration. Anyhow, my take is that HNMS and IPMA are both comparable and about the same level in terms of service provision to the general public. 

Btw, thanks for the Santa Maria station! I will check it out!

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
2 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I am in Lardos, 7 km from Lindos. I can get the Dutch coconuts through to Mid February but not further (to now).

The cocos that Jonathan above is growing in Malta (I followed his temperatures all winter and they are slightly cooler than mine - often by 5 degrees) are completely different specimans than the Dutch coconuts. The problem with the latter is they are grown in quite low light situations and when I put them in my sun, they literal;y melt.

I do believe that Lindos, Pefkos and Lardos (three villages together - Pefkos is in the middle) do hold some promise and I will continue to try until I can make some headway. Of the three villages, Lindos is mch hotter than the other two in summer and Pefkos is the warmest in the winter. Just south of Lardos. My friend owns a club in Pefkos and I will be trying a Dutch coconut there this summer. With the bit extra summer humidity on Pefkos, I think Pefkos has the best chance. 

As I have been working remotely for the last 15 months, I have intensified my efforts to grow a coconut. Still no luck with the Dutch ones. However, I am trying hard to germinate the supermatket ones but nor luck there yet. If these lockdowns continue and I can continue working remotely, who knows what success I might have if I can actually germinate one.

 

Maybe a good starting point would be to try simultaneously growing cocos in all the villages you mention, including Lindos! That should give us some valuable insight on how the area behaves!

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pietropuccio

Sorry Manos,

I got lost in this long discussion (I'm old :)). For the purposes of determining the zone by applying the USDA method to the letter, the average of the annual absolute minimums over an appropriate number of years is simply required (30 is recommended). What is this value for the location of interest? For the purposes of evaluating the probability of survival of the Cocos it is also useful to know the monthly average of the minimum temperatures of December, January, February and March. Alternatively can you indicate the site where to find them?

Many thanks

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Manos33
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

Sorry Manos,

I got lost in this long discussion (I'm old :)). For the purposes of determining the zone by applying the USDA method to the letter, the average of the annual absolute minimums over an appropriate number of years is simply required (30 is recommended). What is this value for the location of interest? For the purposes of evaluating the probability of survival of the Cocos it is also useful to know the monthly average of the minimum temperatures of December, January, February and March. Alternatively can you indicate the site where to find them?

Many thanks

Hi, yes due to climatological complexity of these locations unfortunately, we can not use the Rhodes (capital) long term data for Lindos since the climate is fundamentally different over there. The same applies for Kasos/Karpathos where unfortunately we do not have the long term climate data from Greece's met office (HNMS) and that's why we focus on what is readily available for this locations, limiting us to around 10-12 years from the NOA stations.

Also I realize that I hadn't included March in my analysis for Kasos/Karpathos but I focused on what we call the ''meteorological winter'' which is according to WMO Dec,Jan,Feb. I will take a further look and I will add the March data and get back to you.

So the data for Kasos and Lindos can be found here:

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/

Unfortunately the site is in Greek, you will have to use the drop down menu and then manually make the calculations on your own. However I have calculated in earlier posts the means of absolute minimums for the period 2010-2021 for Kasos and these are as follows:

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  

Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Again I will get back to you about March. What do you make of these data so far?

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
8 hours ago, Manos33 said:

So the data for Kasos and Lindos can be found here:

http://meteosearch.meteo.gr/

Unfortunately the site is in Greek, you will have to use the drop down menu and then manually make the calculations on your own. However I have calculated in earlier posts the means of absolute minimums for the period 2010-2021 for Kasos and these are as follows:

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  

Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Again I will get back to you about March. What do you make of these data so far?

Hello pietropuccio

I have now calculated the mean minimums for March. Below all the relevant data that might help you infer how cocos will do. Please let me know what you think!Thank you

Period 2010-2021

Mean of annual absolute mins for Kasos is 6.3C  . Absolute min for Kasos is 4.2C 

Now the mean monthly minimums for Kasos are as follows:

Dec

Mean Min: 13.6C

Jan

Mean Min: 11.7C

Feb

Mean Min: 12.1C

Mar

Mean Min: 12.9C

Edited by Manos33

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bubba

Great to see Maurice is working this! If he is onboard, collectively, there must be a realistic possibility of success and break the current world record!

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pietropuccio

Many thanks Manos
going around the net I found these data, do you know them?
The monthly minimums are important because a young cocos goes in distress if minimum temperatures between 11 and 13 ° C persist for several days, lower temperatures easily lead to death (cell proliferation in the meristem stops around 11-12 ° C).

 

 

Rhodes (city) .jpg

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Manos33
13 minutes ago, pietropuccio said:

Many thanks Manos
going around the net I found these data, do you know them?
The monthly minimums are important because a young cocos goes in distress if minimum temperatures between 11 and 13 ° C persist for several days, lower temperatures easily lead to death (cell proliferation in the meristem stops around 11-12 ° C).

Yes, these are the  official Rhodes (capital) data from HNMS.

So even 12C to 14C minimums usually seen in Kasos during the winter will be a problem... 

Edited by Manos33

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pietropuccio
1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Yes, these are the  official Rhodes (capital) data from HNMS.

So even 12C to 14C minimums usually seen in Kasos during the winter will be a problem... 

Yes, for example only some palms in Malta seem to have survived, despite the particularly favorable position, unrepeatable in the open ground.
However I always say to try, the important is to know the difficulties to operate at the best and not to be under any illusions.
You could do as for the Cyprus coconut, protect it for the first few years, hoping that once it reaches a certain size it can survive, of course it will never look like the coconut trees in my photo.
Finally, I must add in fairness that the values of the Rhodes are lower for the winter than those of Palermo, where the coconut dies.

Good luck

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Manos33
1 hour ago, pietropuccio said:

Finally, I must add in fairness that the values of the Rhodes are lower for the winter than those of Palermo, where the coconut dies.

Good luck

Thank you for the input. Bear in mind however that the Rhodes averages incorporate many years. Its a peculiarity of Greece's met office not to provide 30 year averages but in some cases 40 or even 50 years. More recent data from Rhodes are significantly warmer. 

Let's hope that someone further south in Kasos or Karpathos will try to grow some cocos! It would be interesting

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mlovecan

I've just picked up 3 fresh Costa Rican nuts in London. Arrived by plane this morning. We'll see where I can go with these. Each attempt with the Dutch ones has gotten me a bit further - they used to be dead by Christmas, This year they made it to mid-March. I know I can get a Greek-germinated coconut through the winter if Maltese-germinated ones make it throuigh a Maltese winter which is definitely cooler than than mine.  

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Manos33

Hello all! Just a quick update regarding the absolute minimum temperature ever recorded in Kasos this time from the HNMS station!

So I contacted over the phone HNMS and it is confirmed that for the period when the station is active from 1989 until 2021 (until 3 days ago basically that I contacted them) the lowest ever recorded temperature in Kasos Airport in Fri is a stunning 4.6C  during the cold snap of 2017.  On the same day in 2017, Kasos NOA station recorded  its all time low of 4.2C again in Fri (capital of Kasos). So that also proves what we have been noticing all these years...that the HNMS Kasos station in the airport, which is under strict WMO standards, is actually a bit warmer than the Kasos NOA station!

You can also confirm this if you call them. They will not charge you if you only ask a single value!

Anyhow this goes to show that it is pretty unlikely for Kasos to drop below 4C in a 30+ year period!

Do you think that this might have an impact on a potential coconut effort?

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33

A further update on the mildest winters in Greece, particularly regarding the climate of Kasos and Karpathos!

So, a huge thank you to Meteoclub for taking the time and doing the research, after nagging them for so long:) 

https://www.meteoclub.gr/themata/egkyklopaideia/perioxes-me-tous-hpioterous-xeimones-stin-ellada

The article is in Greek but with Google translate you can easily understand it! If you need help with translation give me a shout!

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UK_Palms

The nighttime temps don't seem to be the issue, it's more the consecutive cool days in mid-winter. While Kasos and Karpathos are some of the warmest places in Europe during winter, if not the warmest, they still get cold snaps from the nearby continent. What happens when the temperature doesn't rise above 15C for 10-14 days, with almost constant rainfall and cold winds?

There might not be any freezing conditions, but the daytime highs in January and low sunlight levels will probably still be an issue. You're going to get a 'bad' winter stretch once or twice a decade, especially given the proximity to the Turkish landmass. I've already mentioned it in this thread, but I'm sure those islands will see a few days every couple of years where the temp does not rise above 10C and goes down to 5C at night, with even lower windchills. Perhaps 7-10 days where it does not rise above 12C, with strong winds and rain.  

That's a point... it's pretty wet in winter there too, so the wet-cold will definitely be an issue for coconuts at those temperatures. Especially during a cold snap that comes across from the continent. I'm not saying you couldn't grow coconuts there, but you would need impeccable drainage, which also causes it's own problems during the hot, dry summer too. What are the average rainfall amounts for Dec, Jan & Feb? 

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Manos33
9 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

The nighttime temps don't seem to be the issue, it's more the consecutive cool days in mid-winter. While Kasos and Karpathos are some of the warmest places in Europe during winter, if not the warmest, they still get cold snaps from the nearby continent. What happens when the temperature doesn't rise above 15C for 10-14 days, with almost constant rainfall and cold winds?

There might not be any freezing conditions, but the daytime highs in January and low sunlight levels will probably still be an issue. You're going to get a 'bad' winter stretch once or twice a decade, especially given the proximity to the Turkish landmass. I've already mentioned it in this thread, but I'm sure those islands will see a few days every couple of years where the temp does not rise above 10C and goes down to 5C at night, with even lower windchills. Perhaps 7-10 days where it does not rise above 12C, with strong winds and rain.  

That's a point... it's pretty wet in winter there too, so the wet-cold will definitely be an issue for coconuts at those temperatures. Especially during a cold snap that comes across from the continent. I'm not saying you couldn't grow coconuts there, but you would need impeccable drainage, which also causes it's own problems during the hot, dry summer too. What are the average rainfall amounts for Dec, Jan & Feb? 

You actually make very good points. Constant rainfall however, is not an issue of great worry for these islands given that Kasos receives only around 270mm of rain annually. The climate over there is clearly hot semi-arid. Now I don't know if the dryness will be an issue. If I am not mistaken, after the island of Ios in the Cyclades which gets less than 200mm of rain annually, Kasos should be the runner up as the driest place in Greece, closely followed by the Athens Riviera.

So I crunched the numbers for Kasos from the met station data of the National Observatory of Athens and Kasos gets on average around 1 day per year of maxes less than 10C and around 2.5 days per year of minimums below 7.2C. From a quick look at the met data of Kasos I found only 7 days in total of temperatures dropping around 5C the past 11 years and 3 of them were actually lower than 5C and close to the all time record low of 4.2C.

The average rainfall for Dec is around 48mm,  Jan around 60mm and Feb around 33mm. 

Below is the climate table (in Greek) from the  article above 

%CE%9A%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%9F%CE%A3_2010-2021

I mean I don't know if these data are of any help but I am also concerned of how barren Kasos actually is. If you look at the island it is pretty much a rock...with very small fertile areas with vegetation! I have actually visited the island once when I was a child but I still remember how barren it looked...

Anyhow, I hope we will have someone who is willing to try growing cocos over there. I am very curious to see if it will work!It's so small and so sparsely inhabited island (only around 1000 people in the winter) which further complicates any attempt to grow cocos. 

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33
10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

but I'm sure those islands will see a few days every couple of years where the temp does not rise above 10C and goes down to 5C at night.

Just a small correction. I actually found 4 days the past 12 years when Kasos had a minimum between 4.2C (the record low) and 4.9C.

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Manos33

An impressive feat by Lindos...It is about to break the European record for the highest mean monthly T

 

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bubba

Would love to see new world record established in any of the places mentioned. The Maltese experiment should give all great hope. These climates are all a little under the cusp but in the right spot...

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Victor G.

Hey Manos,

I'm also greek, living in Athens and I posted the very same question here a few months ago. We have a house near Schoinias (Σχοινιάς στα ελληνικά) and although it's near Athens, it has an interesting microclimate.
On this greek hardiness map you posted it's listed as 10a, but from my own weather station here, I think it tends more towards 10b. So I thought of planting coconuts.

The way people described it to me, our low temperatures are not the problem. It's our high temperatures in the winter. Even if the temperature drops to 0C at night (or even -1C) the coconut can bounce back if the day temperature exceeds 20C. Something that does note happen here. When we get cold waves from the north, the high temperature can remain below 12C for one or more days.

So the problem is basically our high temperatures. (In Miami they also get freezing temperatures sometimes, but then it gets warm in the day and the coconuts are able to survive).

Some forum members suggested I plant Beccariophoenix alfredii, which looks a lot like coconut but is more cold hardy (not to be found in Greece, seeds have to be ordered online).

Maybe some day I'll try a coconut and see. Keep me posted if you learn something about this, I'm definitely interested!

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Manos33

Hello Victor and welcome.

Schinias is a very interesting area of Attica climatologically speaking. Bear in mind that according to the data from the HNMS met station in Schinias the area can be really hot when hot fohn winds prevail during the summer.  It is very often that the HNMS station in Schinias records the highest max temperatures in the whole of Attica beating even Nea Filadelfeia or Elefsina (which are traditional heat monsters) when fohn winds prevail. So that might also be a problem...

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Victor G.
33 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Hello Victor and welcome.

Schinias is a very interesting area of Attica climatologically speaking. Bear in mind that according to the data from the HNMS met station in Schinias the area can be really hot when hot fohn winds prevail during the summer.  It is very often that the HNMS station in Schinias records the highest max temperatures in the whole of Attica beating even Nea Filadelfeia or Elefsina (which are traditional heat monsters) when fohn winds prevail. So that might also be a problem...

Hey again,

Actually I'm in Dikastika (near Schoinias) where the climate is rather temperate. In the summer, the temperature rarely goes over 35C here (even this summer when Athens was 44C here we had 37C). The HNMS station refers to the pine forest or Nea Makri, which have a large climatic difference from Dikastika. Not only the temperature varies but I balieve the climate here is semi-arid, because it rains very little here (amazing, since Nea Makri is a handful of kilometres away, but so many times it was raining there and here nothing!)

This winter I was curious, so I kept records from my own weather station here by the house (see pic).

Right now I have planted some date palms (these are little over a year old) and this summer I planted papayas, mango and a banana tree (let's see how that goes)

Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (34).png

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Manos33
18 hours ago, Victor G. said:

Hey again,

Actually I'm in Dikastika (near Schoinias) where the climate is rather temperate. In the summer, the temperature rarely goes over 35C here (even this summer when Athens was 44C here we had 37C). The HNMS station refers to the pine forest or Nea Makri, which have a large climatic difference from Dikastika. Not only the temperature varies but I balieve the climate here is semi-arid, because it rains very little here (amazing, since Nea Makri is a handful of kilometres away, but so many times it was raining there and here nothing!)

This winter I was curious, so I kept records from my own weather station here by the house (see pic).

Right now I have planted some date palms (these are little over a year old) and this summer I planted papayas, mango and a banana tree (let's see how that goes)

Στιγμιότυπο οθόνης (34).png

Wow! Your mean minimums in the winter are the highest from all the stations in Attica this year! That's amazing! Can I ask what type of meteorological station you have?

Edited by Manos33

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Victor G.
24 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Wow! Your mean minimums in the winter are the highest from all the stations in Attica this year! That's amazing! Can I ask what type of meteorological station you have?

Yeah the area is protected from cold snaps (has to do with the geography of the place)

I have a cheap chinese weather station with external unit (called Life WES-401, bought it from a Skroutz-shop for 60 Euros back then). It transmits the readings to my phone via an app they have.
It just measures temp and humidity, not wind, rain, etc.

Although is nothing compared to professional weather stations, I have very often compared the readings to other thermometres (more than one) and they always agree, so I believe it's pretty trustworthy. I placed the external unit under shade and wind-protected, so the temp is not affected by sun or wind gusts.

The phone app worked prefectly during winter time. However, it started crashing after May-June and now I sometimes get the readings on my phone-sometimes not. So if you're really interested, I would suggest you spend a bit more money and buy something better.

If need any other info just write me a message!

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Manos33

We are just a few days till the end of the year and Lindos is registering an amazing, by European standards, simple mean annual temperature of 22.2C

This value is simply unbeatable in the European continent

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/NOAAYR.TXT

Edited by Manos33

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Janni

Hello Everybody,

every time there is a topic about palms in Greece, I am very curious and read the posts carefully. I love to see here more and more people from Greece, because you have a relatively untouched palmy potential there.

But when it comes to coconuts, I am afraid to say, that I strongly doubt such projects would be successful in the mid-term (a long-term success would be completely unrealistic). Maybe you can succeed in a very sheltered, south facing place in a garden which lies within a favorable microclimate anyway. But that is just my personal opinion, please feel free to prove me wrong B)

Having said that, I truly believe, you will have lots of fun with a large variety of other tropical palms in Attica and elsewhere in Greece. By coincidence I found different examples on the internet, where you can see a bit of the palmy potential of Greece:

There is a nursery on Crete, which is very advanced in palm planting. Just google for "fitoriakritis. gr" and look at their projects on hotel sites, i.e. you can google to find the "Danaides Hotel and Apartments" in Malia, Crete. They made a wonderful tropical garden there. In Athens I found a beach-bar I was looking for and saw, that they planted lots of Archontophoenix (google for balux seaside). The other day I read an article in a Greek newspaper, that there is a start-up farmer in Attica, who is commercially growing Dragon Fruit and a couple of farmers on Crete growing Papayas and Mangos and other topical fruits.

Maybe the limiting factor is not the climate, but the lack of courage and imagination of gardeners in Greece. If somebody is interested in detailed weather data of Greece, maybe I can help. I've made a large excel sheet with all the data I could grab from the HNMS (2006-2018) and referenced the minimum temperatures to  the USDA-Zones. Just tell me, if you want to have it and I can PM you that file.

 

 

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Victor G.

@Manos33 That's indeed an amazing temperature! Maybe this year was particularly warm in Rhodos, but I didn't get a feeling that it was a warm year generally. Two extreme cold fronts in January and February and man, what's going on right now? Can't remember the last time it was so cold in mid-December :/
I hope nothing much worse comes in the next two months.

@Janni I could not have said it better myself. Most people here don't care about planting anything other than usual plants but I do believe than we have a great potential, it's just not explored.

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Manos33
13 hours ago, Victor G. said:

@Manos33 That's indeed an amazing temperature! Maybe this year was particularly warm in Rhodos, but I didn't get a feeling that it was a warm year generally. Two extreme cold fronts in January and February and man, what's going on right now? Can't remember the last time it was so cold in mid-December :/
I hope nothing much worse comes in the next two months.

Yeah, but the Dodecanese is not mainland Greece. They have their own unique weather pretty much isolated from the rest of Greece most of the times. This year is actually nothing compared to the mean annual temperature reached in Lindos in 2017 when it registered an amazing 22.6C simple mean annual temperature. That is simply unheard of by European standards. I doubt we can find any area in geographical Europe to have ever reached 22.6C mean annual temperature for any given year.

I mean come on we are talking around 23C mean annual temperatures here. These are mean annual temperatures found in the tropics of Cancer or Capricorn.

 

1457720232_Screenshot2021-12-18at5_33_52AM.png.87e331423d7e0a98f11b1f8eb2391293.png

Edited by Manos33

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Collectorpalms

First rule of thumb I learned about Coconuts is that if your coldest month average temperature is below 60F/15.6C that you can forget about long term coconuts.

This is the benchmark for Coconuts. So a winter average of the coldest month of what I am seeing above, then the answer is NO.

Coldest months average in South Texas is around 62F. So they do grow there, except for the occasional cold blast that kills them from 1 or 2 nights every 20 years or so.

 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Manos33
4 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

First rule of thumb I learned about Coconuts is that if your coldest month average temperature is below 60F/15.6C that you can forget about long term coconuts.

This is the benchmark for Coconuts. So a winter average of the coldest month of what I am seeing above, then the answer is NO.

Coldest months average in South Texas is around 62F. So they do grow there, except for the occasional cold blast that kills them from 1 or 2 nights every 20 years or so.

 

I see. That is interesting!

Well Greece's highest mean monthly T of the coldest month which is usually January is 13.8C in Kasos. Do you think it would be pointless to try growing cocos if its around 1.5C less than the threshold T you mention above? Also Kasos has a really dry climate. Officially hot semi-arid (BSh). I guess that would be problematic as well. 

Edited by Manos33

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bubba

Reviewing the temperatures for these areas in the Greek Mediterranean, I see the emphasis on high low temperatures. In the locations that information has been provided, the high winter temperatures are only in the upper 50F’s-low 60F tops. The issue with Coconuts is the combined heat of the highs and lows. While you may not have a freeze, the lack of heat in winter high temperatures may be problematic.

Are there any areas and the Greek Mediterranean or the entire Mediterranean that have higher high temperatures?

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Manos33
4 hours ago, bubba said:

Are there any areas and the Greek Mediterranean or the entire Mediterranean that have higher high temperatures?

No, there are no places in geographical Europe with maxes in January that are over 16-17C. That's the best we will do in South Europe.

Edited by Manos33

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Manos33

You might know that there is no reliable report of ever having settled snow inside Rhodes city. At least that's the feedback we have from locals. Well the cold snap that is already hitting Greece currently might change this, as snow is expected tomorrow even inside the city of Rhodes.  Tropical plants will be in danger...

Edited by Manos33

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Victor G.
1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

You might know that there is no reliable report of ever having settled snow inside Rhodes city. At least that's the feedback we have from locals. Well the cold snap that is already hitting Greece currently might change this, as snow is expected tomorrow even inside the city of Rhodes.  Tropical plants will be in danger...

It's crazy. Snow everywhere, in Naxos and Mykonos even on beaches.

We have a house in Dikastika, Attica where the weather is always milder because it's geographically protected from northern winds. It hasn't snowed there for many many years. This morning it snowed like crazy there. RIP bananas, mangoes, papayas and everything else I had.

 

This from a weather station I installed there on Christmas: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IMARAT9

 

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Manos33
1 hour ago, Victor G. said:

It's crazy. Snow everywhere, in Naxos and Mykonos even on beaches.

We have a house in Dikastika, Attica where the weather is always milder because it's geographically protected from northern winds. It hasn't snowed there for many many years. This morning it snowed like crazy there. RIP bananas, mangoes, papayas and everything else I had.

This from a weather station I installed there on Christmas: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/IMARAT9

 

Both in Naxos and Mykonos towns snow did not settle. Snow settled in SW Mykonos and in higher elevations in Naxos. It even snowed in Santorini!!!Of course the snow could not settle on the ground.

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Manos33

Btw Kasos dropped to 4.8C today. Pretty close to its all time absolute low of 4.2C

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ego

Wow Victor we are neighbours! I live in Zouberi. I was in Dikastika few days ago and I noticed a house with a garden full of palms; is that you?

Edited by ego
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Victor G.
22 minutes ago, ego said:

Wow Victor we are neighbours! I live in Zouberi. I was in Dikastika few days ago and I noticed a house with a garden full of palms; is that you?

Awesome! I don't think it's my house you saw cause my palm are still seedlings. I planted them 1,5 years ago but everything there grows so slowly; I guess the soil is very poor quality.
There are, however a few houses with palm trees there (and bananas but they probably rest in heaven after last night!)

I hope that someday you'll pass by a (sub)tropical garden there, but if this situation keeps up, I sadly don't see it happening :(

 

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