Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

[mlovecan]

I have tried more than 20 Dutch coconuts using different methods.The real battle is always the intense summer sun. I used to buy them in Germany or Holland and they'ed get pretty battered up in a suitcase bringing them down. Praktiker in Rhodes started stocking them in summer in 2017 and now they have them all year round.

• first potted attempts were dead by Christmas
• I put one in the ground one year in shade against a wall and managed to get it to mid-February 
• I built a small plastic-covered greenhouse one year and got two of them into March (they ended up dying from the heat as I didn't pay enough attention)

When I was in Teneriffe and visited the Palmetum, one of the directors told me they could only get the Dutch cocos to grow after about 6 months under glass. I never had that opportunity until I put glass pocket doors under my 3 x 4 meter balcony two years ago - I get at least 18 degrees in ther all winter long). Last year, I placed one in the shadiest part of this area and slowly moved it into the sun (still under glass). In June it went outside and only get slightly burnt in a record hot July.  

That cocos is still in a pot, slightly cold damaged, but far stronger than any of the ones I attempted before.

The one I bought in 2023 was moved into the sun for a couple of days by a friend who was tiling the walls of my glassed in area. It got about 25% burnt but still looks otherwise ok. It's just moving into the sun now.

Like I said, Prakitiker left a bunch outside through the coldest time. I was there last night and picked up the nicest one of those - it's now in the shade. It appears they have thrown away about 6 of the ones that were not doing so well and they have moved 2 inside. I am sure they thinking only of sales. They normally left them all inside all winter and I was quite surprised they moved them all outside with the other plants. I figured I might as well benefit from their little experiment.

In terms of other fairly tropical things I'm growing, my hurricane palm and a couple of Roystoneas (one Regia and one Princeps) would be the least tolerant of my palms and I have been growing a mango tree for about 10 years (about 200 mangos this year).

Lindos is considered 10A. There is a peninsula between Lindos and my village at Pefkos which is a solid 10B and from the other side of the mountain to the south of us it's all 10B. We are 10A, pretty much exactly like Lindos in winter but they can get quite a bit hotter in the summer as the village is all concrete.

I will post a couple photos later today.

 

 

 

 

[southathens]

On 2/8/2024 at 10:58 PM, mlovecan said:

I live 7 km from Lindos. My Dutch coconut from summer of 2022 was under glass for about 6 days in January. Other than that, it's been outside all winter. Didn't mind heavy rains in December and January. My summer 2023 has just come out of shaded glass and seeing it's first bit of Greek sun. The time in the shade (8 or 9 months) seems to greatly toughen those things up.

When I was at the hardware store in Rhodes town (colder than here) that sells the Dutch cocos, I was quite surprised to see the staff left all them all outside during the coldest days and nights (when I brought my older one inside).  Some of them seem to be a bit cool damaged now, a couple weeks later (the leaves tend to fold in a bit and then they go into decline) but some of them still look perfect. I was planning on picking up one or two of the nicer ones this weekend and put them straight into shaded glass.

When you don't rush these Dutch cocos, they seem to adapt pretty well to this climate.

That's amazing. So that means your coco has survived?

Can you tell us your exact location in Rhodes? Any pictures would be a awesome !

Thank you!!!

[southathens]

18 hours ago, mlovecan said:

Lindos is considered 10A.

Lindos is a solid 11a

Below the data of the official World Met Organization station from the National Observatory of Athens in Lindos.

 

Edited February 11 by Manos33

[southathens]

Can you guys ID this palm? I found it in downtown Rhodes

[mlovecan]

32 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Lindos is a solid 11a

Below the data of the official World Met Organization station from the National Observatory of Athens in Lindos.

 

I have seen just one USDA map that shows more than a single USDA zone on Rhodes. It's this one: https://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-greece-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php . I know when I drive around my area (I live in the vilage of Lardos) in my car, there are some locations that are always cooler than others (according to my car exterior thermometer) with Pefkos noticeably warmer.  I have also rode my bike all winter at night between Lindos and here and felt the microclimates first-hand.  If I drive South from here just 2km (and beyond), it's always warmer than here. Other than Pefkos not being shown as 10B, I consider the linked map to be highly accurate.  

[Victor G.]

6 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Can you guys ID this palm? I found it in downtown Rhodes

That must be a queen palm or an arecastrum.

They are all over Greece and lots of them in Rhodes as well

[southathens]

8 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Can you guys ID this palm? I found it in downtown Rhodes

Cheers!

I am on a manhunt all over Rhodes to find a coco. Even potted ones. I don't care. I am literally going through hotel photos all over Rhodes. There must be something!

I reckon Rhodes is our best bet to find cocos due to its size, population and overall social and financial activity. 

[Victor G.]

16 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I have seen just one USDA map that shows more than a single USDA zone on Rhodes. It's this one: https://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-greece-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php . I know when I drive around my area (I live in the vilage of Lardos) in my car, there are some locations that are always cooler than others (according to my car exterior thermometer) with Pefkos noticeably warmer.  I have also rode my bike all winter at night between Lindos and here and felt the microclimates first-hand.  If I drive South from here just 2km (and beyond), it's always warmer than here. Other than Pefkos not being shown as 10B, I consider the linked map to be highly accurate.  

I also stays one in Pefkos (or Pefkoi?) and it gave me the feeling that it's even warmer than in Lindos. Of course you can't judge that by the four days I stayed there, but it would be nice to have a weather station there.

[southathens]

19 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I consider the linked map to be highly accurate.  

Doubtful. The map returning these zones is probably based on extrapolations/projections from long distance stations (maybe Rhodes airport in conjunction with Turkish ones...who knows).

I have provided you the  data of the official World Meteorological Organization station in Lindos.  Granted, we are talking only for 10 years so far but the data speak for themselves and I believe they give us a clear indication of where we are heading.  What we know for sure from official met data is that Lindos is a clear 11a currently. I can't comment on your specific area. It would be speculation without official  meteorological data (maybe you should ask NOA to place an official station in your area?).  In any case,  when it comes to official met data the NOA stations are the golden standard when we discuss Greece's climatology.

Please consider checking the list below with Greece's official stations currently falling in 11a zone with the data from their entire time series. 

Edited February 11 by Manos33

[southathens]

19 hours ago, mlovecan said:

I have seen just one USDA map that shows more than a single USDA zone on Rhodes. It's this one: https://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-greece-plant-hardiness-zone-map-celsius.php . I know when I drive around my area (I live in the vilage of Lardos) in my car, there are some locations that are always cooler than others (according to my car exterior thermometer) with Pefkos noticeably warmer.  I have also rode my bike all winter at night between Lindos and here and felt the microclimates first-hand.  If I drive South from here just 2km (and beyond), it's always warmer than here. Other than Pefkos not being shown as 10B, I consider the linked map to be highly accurate.  

Also I didn't quite understand if your cocos have survived outside and for how long? Is there anyone still alive? Do you have any pictures to show us?

It would mean the world if we can confirm a surviving coco outside anywhere in Greece.  

Thank you in advance!

Edited February 11 by Manos33

[mlovecan]

First is the one I bought in 2022 that's outside, then there was the one I bought June 2023 that's behind glass on my terrace and the third is one of the ones that Praktiker stuck outside at the beginning of January and I just picked it up on the weekend:

[mlovecan]

13 hours ago, Manos33 said:

Doubtful. The map returning these zones is probably based on extrapolations/projections from long distance stations (maybe Rhodes airport in conjunction with Turkish ones...who knows).

I have provided you the  data of the official World Meteorological Organization station in Lindos.  Granted, we are talking only for 10 years so far but the data speak for themselves and I believe they give us a clear indication of where we are heading.  What we know for sure from official met data is that Lindos is a clear 11a currently. I can't comment on your specific area. It would be speculation without official  meteorological data (maybe you should ask NOA to place an official station in your area?).  In any case,  when it comes to official met data the NOA stations are the golden standard when we discuss Greece's climatology.

Please consider checking the list below with Greece's official stations currently falling in 11a zone with the data from their entire time series. 

As far as I know, the station in Lindos is private. I believe it was previously attached to weather underground.

[southathens]

7 hours ago, mlovecan said:

As far as I know, the station in Lindos is private. I believe it was previously attached to weather underground.

It has always been an official WMO station from the National Observatory of Athens.  

https://oscar.wmo.int/surface/#/search/station/stationReportDetails/0-300-1-lindos

It is a fan aspirated Davis station in fact. The golden standard in modern Meteorology 

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/

Bear in mind that various official National Observatory of Athens stations were or are still found in various websites. That's irrelevant

In fact, if you have a Davis station in your area you can also ask NOA to become part of its official network as a supervisor of that station provided of course you meet their quality standards. 

Below an exhaustive list of all official NOA stations in Greece! You can see Lindos on the list.

https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/Raw Materials/perigrafi_diktyou_2022.pdf

https://meteosearch.meteo.gr/Raw Materials/2017-Geoscience_Data_Journal-stations.pdf

Edited February 12 by Manos33

[southathens]

7 hours ago, mlovecan said:

First is the one I bought in 2022 that's outside, then there was the one I bought June 2023 that's behind glass on my terrace and the third is one of the ones that Praktiker stuck outside at the beginning of January and I just picked it up on the weekend:

Thank you!

So it is still potted right? Are you planning to remove the pot and have it permantly outside?

[mlovecan]

On 2/12/2024 at 9:25 PM, Manos33 said:

Thank you!

So it is still potted right? Are you planning to remove the pot and have it permantly outside?

These cocos seedlings cost 20 eur. I have learned how to kill them all different ways. Staying out of the killing zone is easy when you've gone beyond the limits enough times.

For now, I don't care about the night-time temps (it's been a good year - we've bottomed out at 9 degrees just twice). For daytime, I am making sure the cocos sees temps above 15 degrees, even if I have to move it behind the glass (we had highs below 15 degrees in the daytime just 7 times this winter).

This two year old coconut has an advantage over the 8 month olds I've previously expose to our winters. A 5 year old coconut would clearly have an advantage over a two year old one.  

For now, I will keep this in a pot so I can take it behind the glass to when it's justified. 

[southathens]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:27 PM, mlovecan said:

These cocos seedlings cost 20 eur. I have learned how to kill them all different ways. Staying out of the killing zone is easy when you've gone beyond the limits enough times.

For now, I don't care about the night-time temps (it's been a good year - we've bottomed out at 9 degrees just twice). For daytime, I am making sure the cocos sees temps above 15 degrees, even if I have to move it behind the glass (we had highs below 15 degrees in the daytime just 7 times this winter).

This two year old coconut has an advantage over the 8 month olds I've previously expose to our winters. A 5 year old coconut would clearly have an advantage over a two year old one.  

For now, I will keep this in a pot so I can take it behind the glass to when it's justified. 

By definition very few days drop below 15C maximum each year in SE Rhodes. But you know better.

When you plant it on the ground let us know. Please also update us frequently on how it goes. Currently you have the only known coco in Greece surviving outside 

[Janni]

6 hours ago, Manos33 said:

…Currently you have the only known coco in Greece surviving outside 

Please don’t be so naive. Just because nobody in our small palm-nerdy bubble knows of anybody in Greece with a coconut outdoors, doesn’t mean, that there actually is no coconut in Greece outdoors.

There are a couple of places in Greece, where you have potentially the right microclimactic conditions and you have many Greek garden owners who leave every kind of potted plants outside all year. Not by purpose of course, but because of laziness or convenience. I bet there sure is one in a random garden, in a protected corner, where nobody sees it or even cares about it. 

[southathens]

5 hours ago, Janni said:

Please don’t be so naive. Just because nobody in our small palm-nerdy bubble knows of anybody in Greece with a coconut outdoors, doesn’t mean, that there actually is no coconut in Greece outdoors.

There are a couple of places in Greece, where you have potentially the right microclimactic conditions and you have many Greek garden owners who leave every kind of potted plants outside all year. Not by purpose of course, but because of laziness or convenience. I bet there sure is one in a random garden, in a protected corner, where nobody sees it or even cares about it. 

Yeah thats why I said ''known''

But let's hope you are right and there is a mature one somewhere in South Greece planted on the ground and surviving normally!

[Foxpalms]

7 hours ago, Janni said:

Please don’t be so naive. Just because nobody in our small palm-nerdy bubble knows of anybody in Greece with a coconut outdoors, doesn’t mean, that there actually is no coconut in Greece outdoors.

There are a couple of places in Greece, where you have potentially the right microclimactic conditions and you have many Greek garden owners who leave every kind of potted plants outside all year. Not by purpose of course, but because of laziness or convenience. I bet there sure is one in a random garden, in a protected corner, where nobody sees it or even cares about it. 

I bet that is true. Lots of people in Central London leave potted "house plants" outside year round.

[mlovecan]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:12 PM, Manos33 said:

By definition very few days drop below 15C maximum each year in SE Rhodes. But you know better.

When you plant it on the ground let us know. Please also update us frequently on how it goes. Currently you have the only known coco in Greece surviving outside 

When there's a huge cold front coming from the North and it's snowing up in Athens, we can see highs in the 8-9 degree range for as long as a week.  Maybe a more mayure cocos can survive that but not a seedling. It even snowed at 150 m elevation (Archangelos) within 20 km and at sealevel (Kolymbia) within 25 km of Lindos two years back. It's not quite as tropical here as you think.

That said, I am certainly not the only person buying these Cocos from Praktiker (I've seen other people at the cash with them). I guess they sell at tleast 100 per year. I have heard from a tree maintenance guy (who trims trees in a bucket at all the major hotels in the South) that he has a friend who has a cocos that he sprouted himself and it's about 1.5 meters high. He knows of no others.

 

[southathens]

14 hours ago, mlovecan said:

When there's a huge cold front coming from the North and it's snowing up in Athens, we can see highs in the 8-9 degree range for as long as a week.  Maybe a more mayure cocos can survive that but not a seedling. It even snowed at 150 m elevation (Archangelos) within 20 km and at sealevel (Kolymbia) within 25 km of Lindos two years back. It's not quite as tropical here as you think.

That said, I am certainly not the only person buying these Cocos from Praktiker (I've seen other people at the cash with them). I guess they sell at tleast 100 per year. I have heard from a tree maintenance guy (who trims trees in a bucket at all the major hotels in the South) that he has a friend who has a cocos that he sprouted himself and it's about 1.5 meters high. He knows of no others.

 

The 2022 event in Rhodes is practically once or twice a century. In fact in 2022 some beaches in the north and center of the island recorded snow accumulation for the first time in their recorded history. Snow did not settle in these areas even in the historic 1987 cold snap of Rhodes!

In terms of cold periods you are right but a week with maxes below 10C again is very extreme and I doubt this happened even in the historic 1987 cold snap around the Lindos area. Below is the 2022 cold snap Ts. It was 4 non consecutive days below 10C maxes.  I bet that around 2-3 or maximum 4 days without reaching 10C might be the most extreme and only in really serious cold snaps like the 2022 event.

Edited February 19 by Manos33

[southathens]

14 hours ago, mlovecan said:

That said, I am certainly not the only person buying these Cocos from Praktiker (I've seen other people at the cash with them). I guess they sell at tleast 100 per year. I have heard from a tree maintenance guy (who trims trees in a bucket at all the major hotels in the South) that he has a friend who has a cocos that he sprouted himself and it's about 1.5 meters high. He knows of no others.

Wow that is very interesting. I hope we can find that guy and secure some pics!!!

[southathens]

 The WMO station of Sifnos also in 11a zone.

2 more met stations of the private Creta Weather network fall also in 11a zone. These are: Gavdos and Psari Forada.

[mirandamavrogianni]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:24 AM, mlovecan said:

When there's a huge cold front coming from the North and it's snowing up in Athens, we can see highs in the 8-9 degree range for as long as a week.  Maybe a more mayure cocos can survive that but not a seedling. It even snowed at 150 m elevation (Archangelos) within 20 km and at sealevel (Kolymbia) within 25 km of Lindos two years back. It's not quite as tropical here as you think.

That said, I am certainly not the only person buying these Cocos from Praktiker (I've seen other people at the cash with them). I guess they sell at tleast 100 per year. I have heard from a tree maintenance guy (who trims trees in a bucket at all the major hotels in the South) that he has a friend who has a cocos that he sprouted himself and it's about 1.5 meters high. He knows of no others.

 

Wow! Are you able to contact this landscaper and get a photo? 🙏🙌

[southathens]

As we are now officially in spring below the updated climate normals for Kastellorizo island which is in Greece's SW edge.

Notice that average lows during the coldest months do not drop below 12C much like the Azores. In fact I believe that Jan and Feb average highs must be even higher than the 17C suggested by the WMO fan aspirated station. I bet a passive Stevenson Screen station would give us around 18C average highs for Jan and Feb.

The island is well within the upper 11a zone limits.  Missing the 11b zone by around 1C.  I think along with coastal Rhodes, Kasos and Karpathos it may also sustain cocos! It's a pity that we are talking about a tiny island with a few hundred inhabitants. 

And just look at this stunning 21.7C average annual temperature. Only behind Lindos which stands at 21.9C. On par with the Canaries.

And below a view of the WMO station in Kastellorizo.

 

Edited March 2 by Manos33

[mlovecan]

6 hours ago, mirandamavrogianni said:

Wow! Are you able to contact this landscaper and get a photo? 🙏🙌

He lives in a remote village up the hill from me. I had his number (he cut down four large washingtonias for me) but not sure where it is. The hotels are all dormant right now but all preparation for the new season normally start around mid to late March. He should be around here soon. 

[mirandamavrogianni]

2 hours ago, mlovecan said:

He lives in a remote village up the hill from me. I had his number (he cut down four large washingtonias for me) but not sure where it is. The hotels are all dormant right now but all preparation for the new season normally start around mid to late March. He should be around here soon. 

thank you! i’m sure many of us hope to hear from you 🙂🙌 

on another note, i know it may take some time but considering you are one of the few people who have successfully grown coconuts sprouts in greece I am wondering if you are willing to put together a little guide on how someone else can get started and avoid the many mistakes? i am from hawaii, i truly miss my coconuts and i definitely want to pursue growing them but unfortunately i don’t have the means or resources to make sooo many mistakes, i’m confident that if i follow a proven system to do it successfully i can grow them. 

 

i truly appreciate your guidance!! 

[southathens]

2 hours ago, mirandamavrogianni said:

thank you! i’m sure many of us hope to hear from you 🙂🙌 

on another note, i know it may take some time but considering you are one of the few people who have successfully grown coconuts sprouts in greece I am wondering if you are willing to put together a little guide on how someone else can get started and avoid the many mistakes? i am from hawaii, i truly miss my coconuts and i definitely want to pursue growing them but unfortunately i don’t have the means or resources to make sooo many mistakes, i’m confident that if i follow a proven system to do it successfully i can grow them. 

 

i truly appreciate your guidance!! 

Hey again! We had prepared in the past a thorough guide on planting cocos in the Greek islands. 

We have adjusted the guide specifically for the Greek islands climate

Unfortunately it's in Greek but if you google translate it the result is very good.

Below is the step by step guide that might help you.

https://www.karpathiakanea.gr/cocos-nucifera-odigos-kaliergias/

of course tips from mlovecan who managed the cocos in Rhodes would be extremely valuable. 

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress!

Edited March 2 by Manos33

[southathens]

I am also sharing here mlovecan's answer on the 6 cocos currently surviving outdoors in Rhodes Praktiker

It would be amazing if anyone who is visiting Rhodes Praktiker would be able to secure some photos for us. I guess it's a really busy place so there should be many visitors who might get a chance to take some pics for us!

Edited March 2 by Manos33

[mlovecan]

54 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I am also sharing here mlovecan's answer on the 6 cocos currently surviving outdoors in Rhodes Praktiker

It would be amazing if anyone who is visiting Rhodes Praktiker would be able to secure some photos for us. I guess it's a really busy place so there should be many visitors who might get a chance to take some pics for us!

I'm there at least once a week - normally on Saturday. I thought about taking some photos but didn't think they were all that interesting as everybody's seen them at that size. Definitely, I will take photos there next Saturday.

Edited March 2 by mlovecan
correct bad grammer

[mlovecan]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

https://www.karpathiakanea.gr/cocos-nucifera-odigos-kaliergias/

 

In the linked article, it states "Do not buy a ready-made plant from a flower shop. These come from greenhouses in Holland, and have been preserved by chemical means." 

I spoke with the owner of the Dutch greenhouses this week. Amoung other things, he told me the seedlings are given a minimum amount of fertilizer. He tells me he gets a lot of people who complain about how poorly his cocos do when they go straight into the sun (even the Dutch sun). Not only is the rapid introduction an issue but also the temperature of the nut. They run 27-28 degrees air temp and maintain 25 degrees on the nut. This coincides with my recent discovery that burying them about 2/3 in the soil makes a big difference to their acclimation to a Greek summer. 

[southathens]

46 minutes ago, mlovecan said:

I'm there at least once a week - normally on Saturday. I thought about taking some photos but didn't think they were all that interesting as everybody's seen them at that size. Definitely, I will take photos there next Saturday.

Oh thank you very much! Please do share with us these pics if you have time

[southathens]

34 minutes ago, mlovecan said:

In the linked article, it states "Do not buy a ready-made plant from a flower shop. These come from greenhouses in Holland, and have been preserved by chemical means." 

I spoke with the owner of the Dutch greenhouses this week. Amoung other things, he told me the seedlings are given a minimum amount of fertilizer. He tells me he gets a lot of people who complain about how poorly his cocos do when they go straight into the sun (even the Dutch sun). Not only is the rapid introduction an issue but also the temperature of the nut. They run 27-28 degrees air temp and maintain 25 degrees on the nut. This coincides with my recent discovery that burying them about 2/3 in the soil makes a big difference to their acclimation to a Greek summer. 

Great! Thanks for the advice!!!

[mlovecan]

As requested, here's a photo of 5 cocos sitting outside of Praktiker in Rhodes Town Greece since just after Christmas including during the cold snap we had January. I asked a member of staff if they bring them in for the night and he replied "why would we?".  

[Janni]

They appear perfectly healthy to me…

[mlovecan]

On 3/10/2024 at 12:22 AM, Janni said:

They appear perfectly healthy to me…

Well, they do mention on their website:

[southathens]

wow they are very healthy!

 

thanks!!!

[mlovecan]

9 hours ago, Manos33 said:

wow they are very healthy!

 

thanks!!!

It needs to be considered that around the time of our coldest weather in January, close to half of the cocos they put outside (about 10 or 11) had turned brown and were set to one side. 12 or 14 remained green (and I saw they moved 2 that were leaning towards grey in color just inside the door) and didn't  suffer any decline when the weather warmed up. Of course, I picked up one of the ones that managed to breeze right through the cold spell.

I do see other customers purchasing these things. The biggest question is whether or not they are able to adequately aclimate the cocos to our very intense summer sun (I believe most will not and they may or may not have the interest to try again).

[southathens]

4 hours ago, mlovecan said:

It needs to be considered that around the time of our coldest weather in January, close to half of the cocos they put outside (about 10 or 11) had turned brown and were set to one side. 12 or 14 remained green (and I saw they moved 2 that were leaning towards grey in color just inside the door) and didn't  suffer any decline when the weather warmed up. Of course, I picked up one of the ones that managed to breeze right through the cold spell.

I do see other customers purchasing these things. The biggest question is whether or not they are able to adequately aclimate the cocos to our very intense summer sun (I believe most will not and they may or may not have the interest to try again).

I see. This year however we practically had no winter. Even here in Athens. Probably 2 or 3 days of  cold weather. In Rhodes it was even milder so they stood a good chance surviving this year. 

You are right about the summers. The wider Lindos area is brutal during the summer. But I believe with good irrigation they can survive.  I mean they survive in the tropics with even more intense sun exposure so with proper irrigation they will make it. 

Edited March 13 by Manos33

[southathens]

At last 10 full years of met data for Lindos