Can cocos survive in Lindos,Rhodes in Greece?

[Amory1987]

Hello everybody! I'm not a palm grower but I am a lover of these plants. I wanted to join the discussion as Rhodes is one of my favorite destinations in Greece and I've spent some time in Lindos in the past.  So I read with great interest your input on the likelihood of successfully growing cocos in the warmest areas of the Dodecanese.  

Some of you mentioned Lindos' extremely high mean annual temperature (for European standards) and the fact that it would allow for some of the most vulnerable tropical plants to survive at an unheard latitude. I just wanted to point out that the 22° a year value reached by Lindos is mostly due to the extremely high temperature averages scored in the summer months, where daytime values consistently sit at or above 35°, and nighttime lows never descend below 23-24°. These values have huge repercussions on the final, yearly average of Lindos. 
There is a town in south-eastern Turkey called Cizre. It's annual average is 19.5° which would lead many to think that it's a mild place year-round. Well, it turns out that the average temperature for January is 6.9° and even in April it's just 17.1°. The high daily annual mean is due to the fact that July and August have an average high of 41°(!!) and September of 37° (!!). But still, you wouldn't be able to grow anything tropical there. My point being that the annual mean temperature is not the main indicator in deciding whether a certain place is suitable for cocos or not.

My personal experience in Lindos was that of an extremely hot and pretty dry place. I was there in the early summer and I remember waking up at 7am in the morning, walking out onto my balcony and looking at the rising sun. The heat was so strong and dry that I felt it was almost burning my skin. I had felt that kind of heat so early in the morning only in the Tunisian desert a few years before. But I really doubt that the winter temperatures are warm enough, even in a place such as that one.

I feel like Europe's southern fringe sits too high by a couple of parallels to make the cut. If there was some island just 200 km south-east of Crete or Kasos, the combination of latitude, climate, sun-exposure as well as shelter form northernly cold systems, would allow for us to grow cocos on it.

I would be happy to hear your opinions!

On a side note - I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but there is a beach in Crete (Vai beach) which is the only beach in Europe with a spontaneous, native palm forests of Phoenix theophrasti. 

[Victor G.]

2 hours ago, Amory1987 said:

Hello everybody! I'm not a palm grower but I am a lover of these plants. I wanted to join the discussion as Rhodes is one of my favorite destinations in Greece and I've spent some time in Lindos in the past.  So I read with great interest your input on the likelihood of successfully growing cocos in the warmest areas of the Dodecanese.  

Some of you mentioned Lindos' extremely high mean annual temperature (for European standards) and the fact that it would allow for some of the most vulnerable tropical plants to survive at an unheard latitude. I just wanted to point out that the 22° a year value reached by Lindos is mostly due to the extremely high temperature averages scored in the summer months, where daytime values consistently sit at or above 35°, and nighttime lows never descend below 23-24°. These values have huge repercussions on the final, yearly average of Lindos. 
There is a town in south-eastern Turkey called Cizre. It's annual average is 19.5° which would lead many to think that it's a mild place year-round. Well, it turns out that the average temperature for January is 6.9° and even in April it's just 17.1°. The high daily annual mean is due to the fact that July and August have an average high of 41°(!!) and September of 37° (!!). But still, you wouldn't be able to grow anything tropical there. My point being that the annual mean temperature is not the main indicator in deciding whether a certain place is suitable for cocos or not.

My personal experience in Lindos was that of an extremely hot and pretty dry place. I was there in the early summer and I remember waking up at 7am in the morning, walking out onto my balcony and looking at the rising sun. The heat was so strong and dry that I felt it was almost burning my skin. I had felt that kind of heat so early in the morning only in the Tunisian desert a few years before. But I really doubt that the winter temperatures are warm enough, even in a place such as that one.

I feel like Europe's southern fringe sits too high by a couple of parallels to make the cut. If there was some island just 200 km south-east of Crete or Kasos, the combination of latitude, climate, sun-exposure as well as shelter form northernly cold systems, would allow for us to grow cocos on it.

I would be happy to hear your opinions!

On a side note - I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but there is a beach in Crete (Vai beach) which is the only beach in Europe with a spontaneous, native palm forests of Phoenix theophrasti. 

I agree with what you said.

It's exactly what we've been discussing here (but the thread has become probably too big for someone to read).

It's more of an experiment I would say. Like "let's plant and see what happens". We have been trying to figure out the best places to plant coconuts in Europe and Lindos is in the top 10 definitely. But that doesn't mean that it would be successful.

However, since I was in Rhodes a month ago, the biggest problem isn't the weather - it's the lack of interest. Rhodes is a highly touristic island and the locals seem to have based their whole economy into this concept. Surely, there are people who care for the island, I just didn't see any. But in general, Greeks have zero interest for tropical plants, so it's an experiment that probably won't ever happen.

And I agree that the yearly average doesn't say anything about the place's climate. Lindos has a slightly higher annual average than some places in the coastal Canary islands, however their winter with our winter is a world apart.

Annual average is mostly used to determine how a place is affected by climate change and urban heat islands. But it's a very lousy tool when it comes to planting tropical species

[southathens]

2 hours ago, Amory1987 said:

Some of you mentioned Lindos' extremely high mean annual temperature (for European standards) and the fact that it would allow for some of the most vulnerable tropical plants to survive at an unheard latitude. I just wanted to point out that the 22° a year value reached by Lindos is mostly due to the extremely high temperature averages scored in the summer months, where daytime values consistently sit at or above 35°, and nighttime lows never descend below 23-24°. These values have huge repercussions on the final, yearly average of Lindos. 
There is a town in south-eastern Turkey called Cizre. It's annual average is 19.5° which would lead many to think that it's a mild place year-round. Well, it turns out that the average temperature for January is 6.9° and even in April it's just 17.1°. The high daily annual mean is due to the fact that July and August have an average high of 41°(!!) and September of 37° (!!). But still, you wouldn't be able to grow anything tropical there. My point being that the annual mean temperature is not the main indicator in deciding whether a certain place is suitable for cocos or not.

 

Hello and welcome! Yep you are right, however no one is saying that Lindos is a perfect place for cocos only based on the incredible by European standards 22C average annual T.

Lindos still has some pretty mild winters. It has a January mean T of over 13C and Feb mean T close to 15C. Ok Kasos has much milder winters and in my opinion it is the best  candidate for growing cocos in Greece but Lindos also worths a shot and we will never know unless we actually try...

[southathens]

40 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

But in general, Greeks have zero interest for tropical plants, so it's an experiment that probably won't ever happen.

Yep thats the sad part, however we are here to try and spike or galvanize the interest of some people who see tropical plants in Greece favourably. If we continue to be vocal about it regardless of the tiring pessimistic voices then stats will slowly turn in our favour. 

But then again thats me talking! An eternal optimist 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:34 AM, Manos33 said:

Confirmation from Greece's Climate Atlas that SE Rhodes alongside South Crete  and W/S Peloponnese have the highest mean annual sunshine in the country with over 3.100 hours per year.  The data below are only limited to HNMS Campbell-Stokes sunshine stations scattered throughout the country. There are a few more sunshine stations from NOA as well but they are fewer compared to the HNMS sunshine stations.

The pdf titled ''Το κλίμα της Ελλάδας'' (Greece's climate) is found in the HNMS Climate Atlas link below but unfortunately it is only in Greek.

http://climatlas.hnms.gr/sdi/

Here is the relevant screenshot

Just a quick follow up post which might be of interest to some.

I checked a bit better the Climate Atlas published by Greece's Met Office (HNMS) and I noticed that the average annual sunshine around Lindos is actually a bit higher at around 3173 hours.

The highest average sunshine I could find in Greece according to the HNMS Climate Atlas is a stunning average of 3257 hours of sunshine per year in SE Crete. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

As we are progressing through the summer which has been particularly mild for Greek standards, Lindos once again managed Greece's highest average temperature for July with 31.6C (simple mean)

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/NOAAYR.TXT

Notice the stunning 27.6C average minimum and the 35.6C average maximum. All this during a month that has been below the July average for various areas of Greece.  Constant foehn winds blowing almost 24/7 from the W to the E of Rhodes during July resulted in such crazy Ts in Lindos. 

Just for comparison I haven't found a single official station in Iberia to surpass this July the average temperature registered in Lindos despite the fact that Iberia had its hottest July on record! The fact that Lindos can so casually register these averages makes you wonder what may happen during a truly record breaking summer month. Last year in August Lindos registered an average T of 33.3C (simple mean) setting the record for the warmest month anywhere in Europe and this was done despite the fact that during the second half of August temps went back to normal for most of Greece.  So now I am naturally curious, where would Lindos stop if it experienced an equally hot full month like the one Iberia experienced last month. Would a 35C average monthly T be possible for a location in Europe? That would be crazy even for the Red Sea, let alone a location on an Aegean Island.

What would that do to plant life on SE Rhodes? I know that a lot of members here say that winters are the absolute killers of most tropical plants but I am beginning to think that a run of a couple of years with very hot summers in SE Rhodes may potentially prove equally detrimental for any effort to sustain tropical plants.

I mean, is it even possible for cocos to survive an average monthly T of 35C? Wouldn't that stress most if not all plant life anywhere in the world?

[Victor G.]

22 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

As we are progressing through the summer which has been particularly mild for Greek standards, Lindos once again managed Greece's highest average temperature for July with 31.6C (simple mean)

https://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lindos/NOAAYR.TXT

Notice the stunning 27.6C average minimum and the 35.6C average maximum. All this during a month that has been below the July average for various areas of Greece.  Constant foehn winds blowing almost 24/7 from the W to the E of Rhodes during July resulted in such crazy Ts in Lindos. 

Just for comparison I haven't found a single official station in Iberia to surpass this July the average temperature registered in Lindos despite the fact that Iberia had its hottest July on record! The fact that Lindos can so casually register these averages makes you wonder what may happen during a truly record breaking summer month. Last year in August Lindos registered an average T of 33.3C (simple mean) setting the record for the warmest month anywhere in Europe and this was done despite the fact that during the second half of August temps went back to normal for most of Greece.  So now I am naturally curious, where would Lindos stop if it experienced an equally hot full month like the one Iberia experienced last month. Would a 35C average monthly T be possible for a location in Europe? That would be crazy even for the Red Sea, let alone a location on an Aegean Island.

What would that do to plant life on SE Rhodes? I know that a lot of members here say that winters are the absolute killers of most tropical plants but I am beginning to think that a run of a couple of years with very hot summers in SE Rhodes may potentially prove equally detrimental for any effort to sustain tropical plants.

I mean, is it even possible for cocos to survive an average monthly T of 35C? Wouldn't that stress most if not all plant life anywhere in the world?

I don't know specifically about the coconut, but most plants (even the tropical ones) can take enough heat.
Unless we're talking about some native Siberian plants, I believe they (or at least, most of them) would do fine.

The problem is that they require extreme amounts of water to compensate for the dehydration they experience and, if you don't have more than enough water supply, this could be a problem

[Victor G.]

Ah, by the way, is was mentioned in this forum that there are coconuts growing in Palm Springs (California, USA) and in Eilat (Israel).
Both of these places can get temperatures around and over 45 degrees Celsius, so if coconuts really do grow there, I believe they can take the heat

 

Edit: There are also coconuts in Dubai. So they can definitely take a lot of heat

Edited August 9, 2022 by Victor G.

[southathens]

8 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

 

The problem is that they require extreme amounts of water to compensate for the dehydration they experience and, if you don't have more than enough water supply, this could be a problem

Yeah and that's a real problem for Rhodes which receives practically 0 mm of rain during the summer.

Can anyone speculate what would happen to a coco if it experienced average monthly Ts of around 35C? Would there be risk of it actually dying even with frequent watering?

Edited August 9, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

 and in Eilat (Israel).

I think that most cocos in Eilat end up dying right?

[Victor G.]

6 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

I think that most cocos in Eilat end up dying right?

Hmm I don't know. If the Wikipedia climate chart is correct, it stil seems to cold for a coconut.

With a mean minimum of 5,9 degrees, you could probably kiss the coconut goodbye

[southathens]

1 minute ago, Victor G. said:

Hmm I don't know. If the Wikipedia climate chart is correct, it stil seems to cold for a coconut.

With a mean minimum of 5,9 degrees, you could probably kiss the coconut goodbye

 5.9C is the mean of absolute minimums in Eilat during January.

10.4C is the actual mean minimum.

[southathens]

Just now, Manos33 said:

 5.9C is the mean of absolute minimums in Eilat during January.

6.0C is the mean of absolute minimums for Kasos NOA btw

[Victor G.]

2 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

 5.9C is the mean of absolute minimums in Eilat during January.

10.4C is the actual mean minimum.

Yeah, I know. But if the following day the temperature doesn't get over 25, it's gonna become a problem.

I don't know, maybe one could keep it for some years, but the climate doesn't have the potential for long term growing in my opinion 

[southathens]

At least it's comforting that cocos can sustain the extreme summer average Ts in Lindos. 

[southathens]

An interesting note about the coming days in Lindos.

Currently Lindos NOA is Greece's only station to have never recorded rain in August. However, the next few days Greece is expected to see a lot of rain and even though models don't suggest a very high chance of Rhodes getting rain it would be interesting to see if it will rain in Lindos this August.

If it does it will be the first time in the station's history...

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

An interesting note about the coming days in Lindos.

Currently Lindos NOA is Greece's only station to have never recorded rain in August. However, the next few days Greece is expected to see a lot of rain and even though models don't suggest a very high chance of Rhodes getting rain it would be interesting to see if it will rain in Lindos this August.

If it does it will be the first time in the station's history...

Do we have any updates about the coconuts planted in Karpathos and Kassos?

[southathens]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Do we have any updates about the coconuts planted in Karpathos and Kassos?

None of the residents followed up. We gave them the instructions and answered their questions but there is no confirmation that someone has actually tried planting. In Kasos the interest was actually stronger but still no follow up. 

Who knows maybe some of the residents actually went ahead with this. The relevant articles from the local press in Kasos was highly publicised so maybe some tried. There is no way for us to know without their feedback 

[southathens]

Ok here is an interesting comparison between Lindos and some coastal areas around the world which are located much more to the south.

So,  Lindos at 36N latitude and with a 21.9°C average annual temperature is hotter year round than:

-Cairo (21.8 °C) at 30N latitude 

-Nanjō in the south part of Okinawa Island  (21.5°C) at 26N latitude

-Port Said in Egypt (21.3°C) at 31N latitude

-Kunigami in the north part of Okinawa Island (20.9°C) at 26N latitude

-Tel Aviv ( 20.3°C) at 32N latitude

and equals the average annual temperature of Daytona Beach in Florida at 29N latitude.

Of course this is mostly trivia since all the above areas have milder winters. Still however, this highlights the importance of foehn winds in Lindos that result in such extraordinary average annual temperatures for its latitude.

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

Also for the first time in the stations history Lindos registered a few hours ago rain during August with 0.4mm

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Also for the first time in the stations history Lindos registered a few hours ago rain during August with 0.4mm

I am amazed at how people here (and governments) still don't care about the climate change, despite seeing what is happening.
The last winters and the last summers are for me the clearest indication that we must shift our priorities.

The Cyclades are today under a massive cloud. Most of the islands probably won't see any sun today.
Rhodes is a bit better, still weather appears to be bad (even if it's rainless).

I feel bad for the people whose only holiday was this week...

Edited August 24, 2022 by Victor G.

[southathens]

13 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

I am amazed at how people here (and governments) still don't care about the climate change, despite seeing what is happening.
The last winters and the last summers are for me the clearest indication that we must shift our priorities.

The Cyclades are today under a massive cloud. Most of the islands probably won't see any sun today.
Rhodes is a bit better, still weather appears to be bad (even if it's rainless).

I feel bad for the people whose only holiday was this week...

100% with you on climate change!

Now about the tourists! Come on, most of them come from really shitty climates. It might be partly cloudy but still Ts of around 29C happening right now in Rhodes is still good enough for them 

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

100% with you on climate change!

Now about the tourists! Come on, most of them come from really shitty climates. It might be partly cloudy but still Ts of around 29C happening right now in Rhodes is still good enough for them 

Actually, I was thinking more about the Greeks who got their vacation just now.

But still, even with clouds and 29C I wouldn't swim. I'd just be locked up in a cafe or something

[Victor G.]

It rained in Rhodes town too

[southathens]

46 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

It rained in Rhodes town too

Yes first time in August after 7 years 

[southathens]

46 minutes ago, Victor G. said:

Actually, I was thinking more about the Greeks who got their vacation just now.

But still, even with clouds and 29C I wouldn't swim. I'd just be locked up in a cafe or something

Come on! I swim even with 22C and clouds if the sea is warm. 

[Victor G.]

10 minutes ago, Manos33 said:

Come on! I swim even with 22C and clouds if the sea is warm. 

Nahh. I'd rather swim in cold water and good weather than the opposite.

Man, here in Cholargos it jus keep raining. Since three days, it rains for two hours, stops for an hour and starts raining again. Everything's flooded here

[southathens]

Lindos NOA station has just dropped earlier today for the first time in its history below 25C during August.

The new record absolute minimum temperature for Lindos NOA during August now stands at 24.2C 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Manos33

[Victor G.]

1 hour ago, Manos33 said:

Lindos NOA station has just dropped earlier today for the first time in its history below 25C during August.

The new record absolute minimum temperature for Lindos NOA during August now stands at 24.2C 

It looks to me like this year is the year of low records (or at least close ones)

Edited August 25, 2022 by Victor G.

[southathens]

Lindos dropped again down to 24.2C today. Which goes to show how rare this weather event has been for Greece  

[SeanK]

I will go against conventional wisdom here.

You need to find data on soil temperatures. What are the minimums during the winter? You state agricultural department or university may be able to help. If soil temps remain above 15° you're safe. Prolonged time below that will stop growth and impede the palm's recovery if damaged.

[Victor G.]

43 minutes ago, SeanK said:

I will go against conventional wisdom here.

You need to find data on soil temperatures. What are the minimums during the winter? You state agricultural department or university may be able to help. If soil temps remain above 15° you're safe. Prolonged time below that will stop growth and impede the palm's recovery if damaged.

May be a stupid question, but how deep are we talking?
If we're talking about the first (let's say) 15cm, I think it will definitely drop under 15C, at least in the early morning.

I don't think the agricultural department has such data, since the University of Rhodes doesn't include an agricultural department. But maybe @Manos33knows better about this.

[southathens]

2 hours ago, SeanK said:

I will go against conventional wisdom here.

You need to find data on soil temperatures. What are the minimums during the winter? You state agricultural department or university may be able to help. If soil temps remain above 15° you're safe. Prolonged time below that will stop growth and impede the palm's recovery if damaged.

wow soil temperature data...

That's hard to find even for Athens. I am not sure if we can find these easily for any area of Greece. Like Victor said maybe the University of Rhodes will have more info but I really have no clue on how to look for these...

[southathens]

Lindos dropped to 24.0C this morning. New absolute minimum for August

[southathens]

An excellent example of the famous foehn winds tonight in Lindos. 

Around 1am T reached 31.5C and hasn't dropped below 30.2C all night so far due to constant foehn winds...

Edited September 5, 2022 by Manos33

[southathens]

Very hot October start for Lindos.

It's already over 36C and its only 12pm local time!

[southathens]

37.9C max in Lindos today! Very hot for October

[southathens]

A very hot October night for South Greece

Its 2 am local time and the met station of Lindos is still hovering over 32C! 

[southathens]

Kasos NOA station is currently recording the highest temperature of the year with over 34C!

I am not sure if we have another year on record in Kasos when the highest T of the year happened in October!

[southathens]

@Victor G. @ego @Phoenikakias

An interesting find!

It seems that I had missed the data of the Rhodes Port from the Davis fan aspirated met station of the Meteocam Network!

I remind you that the National Observatory of Athens does not have a station in the actual port of Rhodes but in the city at around 100 m altitude....and it appears that the differences between the port and higher altitudes in the city of Rhodes are considerable!

Below the climate data of the Rhodes Port for the entire period of the station's operation 

 

So at a first glance we can see that the Port of Rhodes actually rivals Kasos in terms of average minimum winter temperatures!!!

The Port of Rhodes is only slightly cooler than Kasos during the winter. It appears that the Port of Rhodes is actually milder during the winter compared to Lindos! From a quick search I did, it appears that the Rhodes Port is actually the second mildest area of Greece during the winter after Kasos! Beating all areas of South Crete! 

It also has a stunning 20.6C average annual temperature. The second highest in the country after Lindos!

I remind you also that the Port of Rhodes is one of the very few areas in Greece that we do not have a reliable report of ever snowing! The other two is the capital of Kasos, Fri and Kastelorizo!

In light of this... what do you guys reckon? Could the city of Rhodes actually have a decent chance of growing cocos? I mean it is only behind Kasos at a national level when it comes to mild winters!

Btw here is the link of the Davis station for anyone interested to follow the station in the future. Mind you that this is a government station that belongs to the Municipal Port Fund of South Dodecanese

https://www.meteocam.gr/rhodes/

Edited October 2, 2022 by Manos33