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amh

I'm in the beginning stages of constructing hugelkultur bed for noise abatement and privacy. The bed will be about 65 feet long and about 5 feet high in an area of dappled sunlight to shade, due to these conditions I plan on densely growing various shade tolerant palms (chamaedorea radicalis, chamaedorea microspadix, Sabal minor, Sabal brazoriensis, and Sabal Louisiana ), Asimina species, ferns and to be determined. The yard is a warm 8A (temperature range of 8F to 112F not including last February) and the area is protected from frost by live oak canopy. My question is what other palms will survive in these conditions, can Sabal mexicana handle shade? Any Ideas for deer resistant , shade tolerant, cold hardy tropical or native plants?

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PricklyPearSATC
40 minutes ago, amh said:

I'm in the beginning stages of constructing hugelkultur bed for noise abatement and privacy. The bed will be about 65 feet long and about 5 feet high in an area of dappled sunlight to shade, due to these conditions I plan on densely growing various shade tolerant palms (chamaedorea radicalis, chamaedorea microspadix, Sabal minor, Sabal brazoriensis, and Sabal Louisiana ), Asimina species, ferns and to be determined. The yard is a warm 8A (temperature range of 8F to 112F not including last February) and the area is protected from frost by live oak canopy. My question is what other palms will survive in these conditions, can Sabal mexicana handle shade? Any Ideas for deer resistant , shade tolerant, cold hardy tropical or native plants?

Sago palms handle shade well.  All of mine returned from the freeze.  I assume your average annual low is somewhere between 10 and 15 degrees.  I did have a little one gallon sago in a pot fry on me in the 2011 freeze.  The pathetic thing survived. There was almost no soil in the one gallon pot.  It was just a cast-off that I had around, I had probably planted it somewhere and thought.."no", then put it in the little one gallon pot with just leaves and no soil.  (It was one of those itty bitty ones from the houseplant section at Lowes)  After the 2011 freeze, I assumed it was dead, so I ignored, then it wasn't...Then I forgot about it again....it grew with no watering or anything... It resided in the middle of a shrub bed.   And that is where it resided in the 2021 freeze because I had forgotten all about it. 
It has a little fussy brown growth point....However, I have no idea when or if it will grow again. 

I don't think any of my sagos in the ground had any problems in 2011. 

Edited by PricklyPearSATC
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amh
3 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

Sago palms handle shade well.  All of mine returned from the freeze.  I assume your average annual low is somewhere between 10 and 15 degrees.  I did have a little one gallon sago in a pot fry on me in the 2011 freeze.  The pathetic thing survived. There was almost no soil in the one gallon pot.  It was just a cast-off that I had around, I had probably planted it somewhere and thought.."no", then put it in the little one gallon pot with just leaves and no soil.  (It was one of those itty bitty ones from the houseplant section at Lowes)  After the 2011 freeze, I assumed it was dead, so I ignored, then it wasn't...Then I forgot about it again....it grew with no watering or anything... It resided in the middle of a shrub bed.   And that is where it resided in the 2021 freeze because I had forgotten all about it. 
It has a little fussy brown growth point....However, I have no idea when or if it will grow again. 

My normal low temperature is about 13F, but I get to 8F about every 5 years. I have a few sagos and a bunch of other hardy cycads for a planned cycad garden in a different part of the yard, but they usually have no trouble with the cold. I luckily dug up all of my sagos before the February freeze, because the temperatures fell below zero and I am the only person with green cycads in my area. I'm amazed at how resilient the sagos are, but there are a bunch of big specimens in my neighborhood that look dead.

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Fusca
52 minutes ago, amh said:

can Sabal mexicana handle shade?

I've seen Sabal mexicana grown in shade both in Houston and in the RGV.  Really stretches out the petioles.

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PricklyPearSATC
52 minutes ago, amh said:

I'm in the beginning stages of constructing hugelkultur bed for noise abatement and privacy. The bed will be about 65 feet long and about 5 feet high in an area of dappled sunlight to shade, due to these conditions I plan on densely growing various shade tolerant palms (chamaedorea radicalis, chamaedorea microspadix, Sabal minor, Sabal brazoriensis, and Sabal Louisiana ), Asimina species, ferns and to be determined. The yard is a warm 8A (temperature range of 8F to 112F not including last February) and the area is protected from frost by live oak canopy. My question is what other palms will survive in these conditions, can Sabal mexicana handle shade? Any Ideas for deer resistant , shade tolerant, cold hardy tropical or native plants?

Are cast iron plants deer resistant?

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amh
Just now, PricklyPearSATC said:

Are cast iron plants deer resistant?

Sadly, no. I've grown them in the past and by June they will eaten to death. Maybe if planted above the browse line.

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Collectorpalms

As mentioned Texas Sabals look awesome if those are big oaks we are talking! Very stretched out fronds. They have one at Barton Springs Nursery, but I didn’t take a recent picture of it. They Also had butia that looked ( past tense) tropical under live oak shade.

Anyone know what those green plants are?

50EE4CE0-3019-41FC-B28A-761A94A10AA2.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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amh
19 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

As mentioned Texas Sabals look awesome if those are big oaks we are talking! Very stretched out fronds. They have one at Barton Springs Nursery, but I didn’t take a recent picture of it. They Also had butia that looked ( past tense) tropical under live oak shade.

Anyone know what those green plants are?

50EE4CE0-3019-41FC-B28A-761A94A10AA2.jpeg

Yes, big oaks for south/central Texas. What is the true hardiness of the common butias? They would be growing in compost above fairly deep top soil.

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Collectorpalms

They can handle 12F without Burn issues typically. This freeze event had multiple other factor ( Rare long duration and frozen precipitation )

Edited by Collectorpalms
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amh

Will they survive 8F or a week between 25 and 30?

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Collectorpalms

I just read, that you are worried about 8F every 5 years. I’d say skip them. They can handle 8F maybe once when mature. 

But if you decide you want a jubaea x Butia F1 or Butia x Jubaea, they could handle 8F once established.

What about Texas Mountain Laurel. I use them as an understory. They won’t flower like those in full sun, however. But Mine remained green this winter. 
 

Dioon Angustafolium is the only cycad to not defoliate in Austin, but I do not know where to get plants.

Serenoa repens and Needle Palm are two other understory palms.

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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amh
25 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I just read, that you are worried about 8F every 5 years. I’d say skip them. They can handle 8F maybe once when mature. 

But if you decide you want a jubaea x Butia F1 or Butia x Jubaea, they could handle 8F once established.

What about Texas Mountain Laurel. I use them as an understory. They won’t flower like those in full sun, however. But Mine remained green this winter. 
 

Dioon Angustafolium is the only cycad to not defoliate in Austin, but I do not know where to get plants.

Serenoa repens and Needle Palm are two other understory palms.

 

I have a bunch of Dioon edule, but I've heard mixed hardiness ratings on Dioons, specifically the fronds being green while the caudex was dead, are you sure its alive?

Edited by amh

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Collectorpalms
16 minutes ago, amh said:

I have a bunch of Dioon edule, but I've heard mixed hardiness ratings on Dioons, specifically the fronds being green while the caudex was dead, are you sure its alive?

First picture you can see three of them from just a couple weeks ago. All the other plants they had trimmed back. I’d say they were upright and alive. They had many cycads too. These were the only ones not defoliated.

Dioon Edule - yes hardiness varies, so finding these is key. 
edit: just saw Angustifolia is its own species now, been reclassified: 

https://cycadales.eu/2021/02/16/differencesn-between-dioon-edule-and-dioon-angustifolium/?lang=en

36AA1EB9-CE6C-4BBB-985C-2D8C338A0633.jpeg

ADB89371-69DC-4330-82F6-AEF144974023.jpeg

495932CA-04EF-4EF0-B3F4-C00FB50E7A30.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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PricklyPearSATC

There is also this cycad.  Saw it popping up on FB.  Tony who posts here from Dallas showed a picture of his and his has put on more growth than our Sago Palms in San Antonio. 

https://www.plantdelights.com/collections/plants-that-start-with-c/products/cycas-taitungensis

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Collectorpalms
19 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

There is also this cycad.  Saw it popping up on FB.  Tony who posts here from Dallas showed a picture of his and his has put on more growth than our Sago Palms in San Antonio. 

https://www.plantdelights.com/collections/plants-that-start-with-c/products/cycas-taitungensis

I have one, but it’s not flushing new leaves. Left it unprotected. Some of my Regular sagos are, 3 of 8 are flushing new leaves finally. I Protected 5 of 8. Again, didn’t seem to help, freeze was just too many consecutive hours.
That one is same hardiness and a tad faster, you can tell the difference between them if you try real hard!

edit: my memory might have failed me, it’s possible that it’s a hybrid of the two. They did have those around at one time. After I read that they get 5Ft leaves, I thought hmmm, I know might don’t get that long- but it is faster and slightly different to the eye, leaf hardy to 16-20F

Edited by Collectorpalms
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PricklyPearSATC
51 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I have one, but it’s not flushing new leaves. Left it unprotected. Some of my Regular sagos are, 3 of 8 are flushing new leaves finally. I Protected 5 of 8. Again, didn’t seem to help, freeze was just too many consecutive hours.
That one is same hardiness and a tad faster, you can tell the difference between them if you try real hard!

edit: my memory might have failed me, it’s possible that it’s a hybrid of the two. They did have those around at one time. After I read that they get 5Ft leaves, I thought hmmm, I know might don’t get that long- but it is faster and slightly different to the eye, leaf hardy to 16-20F

I've lived in this house since 1994, but 3 of my sago palms are much older and survived 1989.  It got down to 5 F in 1989, but the freeze was of a fairly short duration.
All of my sago palms have seen temps in the teens.  (Although probably not below 15 degrees)
This the first time they've fried up. 

I would not be surprised if ice was not a culprit in college station. 

Edited by PricklyPearSATC
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amh
1 hour ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

There is also this cycad.  Saw it popping up on FB.  Tony who posts here from Dallas showed a picture of his and his has put on more growth than our Sago Palms in San Antonio. 

https://www.plantdelights.com/collections/plants-that-start-with-c/products/cycas-taitungensis

 

52 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I have one, but it’s not flushing new leaves. Left it unprotected. Some of my Regular sagos are, 3 of 8 are flushing new leaves finally. I Protected 5 of 8. Again, didn’t seem to help, freeze was just too many consecutive hours.
That one is same hardiness and a tad faster, you can tell the difference between them if you try real hard!

edit: my memory might have failed me, it’s possible that it’s a hybrid of the two. They did have those around at one time. After I read that they get 5Ft leaves, I thought hmmm, I know might don’t get that long- but it is faster and slightly different to the eye, leaf hardy to 16-20F

Cycas taitungensis is a great fast grower, I think I have 6, I also have a few Cycas panzhihuaensis and hybrid panzhihuaensis X revoluta.

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amh
3 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

I've lived in this house since 1994, but 3 of my sago palms are much older and survived 1989.  It got down to 5 F in 1989, but the freeze was of a fairly short duration.
All of my sago palms have seen temps in the teens.  (Although probably not below 15 degrees)
This the first time they've fried up. 

I would not be surprised if ice was not a culprit in college station. 

There are sagos in my area that were planted close to 30 years ago that have experience many single digit freezes and returned in the spring, even after long periods below freezing. I'm hoping everything returns, but I still haven't seen any new growth, maybe if we ever get some rain and prolonged nights above 45F.

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teddytn
8 hours ago, amh said:

I'm in the beginning stages of constructing hugelkultur bed for noise abatement and privacy. The bed will be about 65 feet long and about 5 feet high in an area of dappled sunlight to shade, due to these conditions I plan on densely growing various shade tolerant palms (chamaedorea radicalis, chamaedorea microspadix, Sabal minor, Sabal brazoriensis, and Sabal Louisiana ), Asimina species, ferns and to be determined. The yard is a warm 8A (temperature range of 8F to 112F not including last February) and the area is protected from frost by live oak canopy. My question is what other palms will survive in these conditions, can Sabal mexicana handle shade? Any Ideas for deer resistant , shade tolerant, cold hardy tropical or native plants?

I can’t comment on plant suggestions, but as far a hugelkultur bed goes, make sure you go at least 6’ to begin with and you may end up with 5’ when everything finally settles. Takes a few seasons really to get to its final size and form. Needs to get rained on a bunch and the wood needs to start breaking down. 

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Chester B

You might want to look at some Mahonia species.  Most are pretty drought tolerant and can handle shade and cold.

The most common one around here is our own native Oregon grape - Mahonia aquifolium. - very tough plant

 

Edited by Chester B
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amh
9 minutes ago, Chester B said:

You might want to look at some Mahonia species.  Most are pretty drought tolerant and can handle shade and cold.

The most common one around here is our own native Oregon grape - Mahonia aquifolium. - very tough plant

 

Texas has a nice mahonia species called agarita(Mahonia trifoliolata), it quite pointy, but can make a nice shrub.

The western mahonia may not like my climate, but I'll have to do some research.

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amh
5 hours ago, teddytn said:

I can’t comment on plant suggestions, but as far a hugelkultur bed goes, make sure you go at least 6’ to begin with and you may end up with 5’ when everything finally settles. Takes a few seasons really to get to its final size and form. Needs to get rained on a bunch and the wood needs to start breaking down. 

It's going to be a multi-year ordeal, that is why I'm accumulating the plants now while they are small and cheap to plant 2 to 3 years from now. I've made smaller beds in the past and they shrink about 30% the first year.

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teddytn
24 minutes ago, amh said:

It's going to be a multi-year ordeal, that is why I'm accumulating the plants now while they are small and cheap to plant 2 to 3 years from now. I've made smaller beds in the past and they shrink about 30% the first year.

You’re way ahead of the game! I think hugelkultur beds are the bees knees. I’m convinced the soil activity helps plants grown in them survive cold snaps for sure. 

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amh
13 minutes ago, teddytn said:

You’re way ahead of the game! I think hugelkultur beds are the bees knees. I’m convinced the soil activity helps plants grown in them survive cold snaps for sure. 

Healthy roots and heat from the microbial community.

Cant go wrong with that.

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amh

Does anyone have experience with Sabal etonia?

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PricklyPearSATC
5 hours ago, amh said:

Texas has a nice mahonia species called agarita(Mahonia trifoliolata), it quite pointy, but can make a nice shrub.

The western mahonia may not like my climate, but I'll have to do some research.

There is a new mahonia called "soft caress" .....Pam Penick in Austin grows it in her yard and so does someone here in North Carolina.  It's ferny looking and seems to go well with palms. 
https://southernlivingplants.com/the-collection/plant/soft-caress-mahonia/

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amh
5 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

There is a new mahonia called "soft caress" .....Pam Penick in Austin grows it in her yard and so does someone here in North Carolina.  It's ferny looking and seems to go well with palms. 
https://southernlivingplants.com/the-collection/plant/soft-caress-mahonia/

Neat! Also looks hardy enough for Texas.

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Chester B

Soft caress is pretty common in these parts. Not sure about the deer resistance as they aren’t spiky like regular mahonias. They look really good mass planted. 

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amh
1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Soft caress is pretty common in these parts. Not sure about the deer resistance as they aren’t spiky like regular mahonias. They look really good mass planted. 

Its a good looking plant, but I share your concern over deer resistance. The deer leave the natives alone, but this could be strictly from the sharp leaves.

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