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Sabal Louisiana cold hardiness

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teddytn

Hoping anyone growing these can help. I’m picking up 2-5 gallon sabal Louisiana soon, just curious what everyone’s actual experience with them are. Are they just as cold hardy as sabal minor? Do they need to be protected in bad winters? Prone to spear pull? Thanks in advance!!

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Allen

Birmingham are better.  I think all of these Sabal minor cross vary to some degree.  Mine get leaf cold spot damage somewhere below 10F and seem to be in jeopardy below 5F.  Spear pulled one winter at 16F when 3 foot tall.  Spear pull can happen any winter due to fungus.  Cold hardiness of all palms is a complicated issue.  

 

Here is my Louisiana after this winter no protection. 

LA.jpg

Edited by Allen

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teddytn
17 minutes ago, Allen said:

Birmingham are better.  I think all of these Sabal minor cross vary to some degree.  Mine get leaf cold spot damage somewhere below 10F and seem to be in jeopardy below 5F.  Spear pulled one winter at 16F when 3 foot tall.  Spear pull can happen any winter due to fungus.  Cold hardiness of all palms is a complicated issue.  

 

Here is my Louisiana after this winter no protection. 

LA.jpg

I have very similar damage on just “normal” sabal minor, my big birmingham showed no damage from this winter. Trying to figure out if I can plant Louisiana out in the yard or if they need to be close to the foundation

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Allen
33 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I have very similar damage on just “normal” sabal minor, my big birmingham showed no damage from this winter. Trying to figure out if I can plant Louisiana out in the yard or if they need to be close to the foundation

My plan here is protect Trachy below 12F (Mine are fairly big),  Mule and Butia below 20F, Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana below 5F, no protection on minor or needle unless things get weird and go under 0F which hasn't happened since the 80's?  My Palmetto is 4 foot and I protect it like Birmingham also at this point.  I copper spray everything a couple times when it starts warming up after a wet/cold event like that ice storm.  

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teddytn
15 minutes ago, Allen said:

My plan here is protect Trachy below 12F (Mine are fairly big),  Mule and Butia below 20F, Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana below 5F, no protection on minor or needle unless things get weird and go under 0F which hasn't happened since the 80's?  My Palmetto is 4 foot and I protect it like Birmingham also at this point.  I copper spray everything a couple times when it starts warming up after a wet/cold event like that ice storm.  

Dang Allen!!! People in Florida laugh a Butia, mule, palmetto normal stuff. That’s a solid collection this far north! 
I've had the worst luck with trachy’s.

Does the Brazoria have similar growth habits as a Birmingham always been curious?

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Collectorpalms

My Sabal Louisiana has zero damage after a week of freezing and a low of  4 to 5 degrees.


Meanwhile I had needle palms that got spear pull and have actually gone downhill losing more fronds. 


Sabal Brazoria had a little leaf burn. Very vigorous grower. 
 

Sabal Birmingham, is just too slow where I have it that it never formed a trunk after a decade, while Louisiana and Brazoria have. 
 

We have native Sabal minor just down the road from me a couple miles.

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, Allen said:

My plan here is protect Trachy below 12F (Mine are fairly big),  Mule and Butia below 20F, Birmingham, Brazoria and Louisiana below 5F, no protection on minor or needle unless things get weird and go under 0F which hasn't happened since the 80's?  My Palmetto is 4 foot and I protect it like Birmingham also at this point.  I copper spray everything a couple times when it starts warming up after a wet/cold event like that ice storm.  

I think copper Fungicide should be applied in the fall and before the big freezes as a preventive. It needs to be in the system of the plant. There is no indication that I have heard in Texas that copper fungicide has helped any freeze damage palms pull through once applied AFTER the freeze. 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Allen
27 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I think copper Fungicide should be applied in the fall and before the big freezes as a preventive. It needs to be in the system

of the plant. There is no indication that I have heard in Texas that copper fungicide has helped any freeze damage palms pull through once applied AFTER the freeze. 

That doesn't make common sense or any sense really unless it is done on protected palms that are kept constantly in dry protection (ie. in the box method of cold protection).  Maybe believe some other experts below??

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/mg/mg31800.pdf

http://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/hort/tag/freeze-damage/

https://www.florida-palm-trees.com/cold-damaged-palm-tree-care/

Here's a guy in Texas

https://gillnursery.com/start-your-post-freeze-pruning-now/

 

 

 

Edited by Allen
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Allen
1 hour ago, teddytn said:

Dang Allen!!! People in Florida laugh a Butia, mule, palmetto normal stuff. That’s a solid collection this far north! 
I've had the worst luck with trachy’s.

Does the Brazoria have similar growth habits as a Birmingham always been curious?

They are all slow.  

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Collectorpalms
6 minutes ago, Allen said:

That doesn't make common sense or any sense really unless it is done on protected palms that are kept constantly in dry protection (ie. in the box method of cold protection)

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/mg/mg31800.pdf

http://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/hort/tag/freeze-damage/

https://www.florida-palm-trees.com/cold-damaged-palm-tree-care/

Yeah, I read that it should be applied before the freeze, so I found those articles wrong,

so don’t trust me, just spray your copper fungicide on dead tissue. You will get no results. This freeze is worse than any recent freeze in Florida. 
 

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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teddytn
33 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

My Sabal Louisiana has zero damage after a week of freezing and a low of  4 to 5 degrees.


Meanwhile I had needle palms that got spear pull and have actually gone downhill losing more fronds. 


Sabal Brazoria had a little leaf burn. Very vigorous grower. 
 

Sabal Birmingham, is just too slow where I have it that it never formed a trunk after a decade, while Louisiana and Brazoria have. 
 

We have native Sabal minor just down the road from me a couple miles.

That’s really surprising about the Birmingham, with your climate I would have thought a small trunk after that many years.

I would love to see a picture of your Louisiana if you wouldn’t mind

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Collectorpalms

Allen’s frond does not look like my Louisiana. We have Sabal Louisiana not from from here either. My Sabal Brazoria came from native stand.

Second picture Brazoria after 3 *, first Sabal Louisiana after 4/5* lots of snow and ice so they lol beat up. My Birmingham is along the wall behind the Louisiana, you can’t see it because it just never grew.

BFFF673C-A5CF-4323-AA29-D2A857D533BD.jpeg

6840FDAB-88EC-472A-A776-BB99F1E299B8.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Collectorpalms

Here are some Sabal minors and Louisiana. The Louisiana are very stiff Like cardboard and upright. 
If your observant you can pick out the various Sabals over time. There is a slightly burned Sabal Brazoria possibly too in last picture...68A7603B-4599-4CC5-84A7-B9E326966D61.thumb.jpeg.d9f324e05034453a3ed297c38ec0524e.jpeg

BDD20B40-3D1D-4450-8DD0-9CF08B6D7885.jpeg

05109713-615B-4523-92DE-F73466057CB3.jpeg

45A6304D-76CB-4929-BBF4-5B93F7A94368.jpeg

6AA5C36A-84DE-44B0-B528-FC8A926DBA84.jpeg

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teddytn
24 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Allen’s frond does not look like my Louisiana. We have Sabal Louisiana not from from here either. My Sabal Brazoria came from native stand.

Second picture Brazoria after 3 *, first Sabal Louisiana after 4/5* lots of snow and ice so they lol beat up. My Birmingham is along the wall behind the Louisiana, you can’t see it because it just never grew.

BFFF673C-A5CF-4323-AA29-D2A857D533BD.jpeg

6840FDAB-88EC-472A-A776-BB99F1E299B8.jpeg

This may get some frowny faces, but I prefer the growth habit of the minor variants when they trunk better than a palmetto. From my opinion palmettos don’t start to look good to me until they have 5 feet or more of clear trunk. Birmingham, Louisiana, brazoria all look amazing when they have 1 foot of trunk.

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Collectorpalms

You rarely see many people posting pictures of Sabal Palmetto growing from seedlings. But you see a lot of Sabal minor types. 
I have various Sabal volunteers growing throughout my yard and neighbors flower beds.

Yeah, Sabal palmetto does look a little weak Leafed compared to some minors. They get beat up in a marginal climate. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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teddytn
23 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Here are some Sabal minors and Louisiana. The Louisiana are very stiff Like cardboard and upright. 
If your observant you can pick out the various Sabals over time. There is a slightly burned Sabal Brazoria possibly too in last picture...68A7603B-4599-4CC5-84A7-B9E326966D61.thumb.jpeg.d9f324e05034453a3ed297c38ec0524e.jpeg

BDD20B40-3D1D-4450-8DD0-9CF08B6D7885.jpeg

05109713-615B-4523-92DE-F73466057CB3.jpeg

45A6304D-76CB-4929-BBF4-5B93F7A94368.jpeg

6AA5C36A-84DE-44B0-B528-FC8A926DBA84.jpeg

That last pic of the Brazoria....incredible! If you had to take a wild guess how old do you think that is?

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Collectorpalms
5 hours ago, teddytn said:

Hoping anyone growing these can help. I’m picking up 2-5 gallon sabal Louisiana soon, just curious what everyone’s actual experience with them are. Are they just as cold hardy as sabal minor? Do they need to be protected in bad winters? Prone to spear pull? Thanks in advance!!

Where are you getting them?

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Collectorpalms
19 minutes ago, teddytn said:

That last pic of the Brazoria....incredible! If you had to take a wild guess how old do you think that is?

I was told or it was implied that was a Brazoria to Me this spring.

here that palm probably is “only” 25 years old. If it was Sabal minor it would twice (or more) as old!

Edited by Collectorpalms

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teddytn
1 minute ago, Collectorpalms said:

Where are you getting them?

Nearly Native nursery in Georgia

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Collectorpalms
17 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Nearly Native nursery in Georgia

I read they ship. Is there a price list? I saw availability list.

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teddytn
9 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

I read they ship. Is there a price list? I saw availability list.

They do ship, but not over 3 gallon size. I’m trying to get the biggest plants I can. Don’t quote me on this, pretty sure 3 gallon is $38, 7 gallon $78, 15 gallon $160. Needle palm was more expensive in all sizes. 

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Collectorpalms
3 minutes ago, teddytn said:

They do ship, but not over 3 gallon size. I’m trying to get the biggest plants I can. Don’t quote me on this, pretty sure 3 gallon is $38, 7 gallon $78, 15 gallon $160. Needle palm was more expensive in all sizes. 

Those are fair prices! Well worth the investment in truly slow cold hardy palms. 

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tlow

I actually tried to source some S. Mexicanas from them in March post the freeze and was told they had them, could ship them and he'd send me a quote to get them ordered.  I tried contacting him multiple times via email and text, and got zero response.  Frustrating as their prices were reasonable and I was going to place a very large order.  Hope your experience is better than mine.

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Collectorpalms
30 minutes ago, tlow said:

I actually tried to source some S. Mexicanas from them in March post the freeze and was told they had them, could ship them and he'd send me a quote to get them ordered.  I tried contacting him multiple times via email and text, and got zero response.  Frustrating as their prices were reasonable and I was going to place a very large order.  Hope your experience is better than mine.

Go Figure.
It’s possible even The palms were  damaged by the cold. 

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tlow
Just now, Collectorpalms said:

Go Figure.
It’s possible even The palms were  damaged by the cold. 

He's out in Georgia and said they had no issues, so I don't think that was the cause.  I just didn't get the sense the individual(s) I was dealing with were savvy with communicating, etc.  I was ready to place an order to replace the few things I lost, and then to add much more, but it's their loss not mine.

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Collectorpalms
1 minute ago, tlow said:

He's out in Georgia and said they had no issues, so I don't think that was the cause.  I just didn't get the sense the individual(s) I was dealing with were savvy with communicating, etc.  I was ready to place an order to replace the few things I lost, and then to add much more, but it's their loss not mine.

Gotcha. I just woke up...I got confused with the other post about another nursery. 

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teddytn
39 minutes ago, tlow said:

I actually tried to source some S. Mexicanas from them in March post the freeze and was told they had them, could ship them and he'd send me a quote to get them ordered.  I tried contacting him multiple times via email and text, and got zero response.  Frustrating as their prices were reasonable and I was going to place a very large order.  Hope your experience is better than mine.

Thanks for the heads up, I hope that’s not the case, seems like the best option for me to get some bigger sized plants. 

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tlow
4 minutes ago, teddytn said:

Thanks for the heads up, I hope that’s not the case, seems like the best option for me to get some bigger sized plants. 

I stumbled upon some I would say some 3G S. Louisianas on ebay a few weeks ago and just put them in the ground recently.. they look incredible !  Can't wait for them to grow up and start developing the trunk over time.

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teddytn
32 minutes ago, tlow said:

I stumbled upon some I would say some 3G S. Louisianas on ebay a few weeks ago and just put them in the ground recently.. they look incredible !  Can't wait for them to grow up and start developing the trunk over time.

I’ve never had the guts to buy a plant off of eBay lol. Louisiana’s, Birmingham, and Brazoria might be my favorite looking sabals.

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Collectorpalms
8 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I’ve never had the guts to buy a plant off of eBay lol. Louisiana’s, Birmingham, and Brazoria might be my favorite looking sabals.

eBay has a lot of people with no clue what they are selling. It’s Also hard to make a profit from selling plants with the fees eBay charges. I mean they charge the seller a percentage of the shipping fees. It’s just a bad company all the way around.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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tlow
11 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I’ve never had the guts to buy a plant off of eBay lol. Louisiana’s, Birmingham, and Brazoria might be my favorite looking sabals.

You need to be intelligent about the people you do business with and I think the folks who are selling cold hardy stuff it's a bit different.  There are certainly some sellers I wouldn't deal with, but the folks I have gotten things from (Needle, Brazoriensis, Birmingham, S. Minors several varieties) I have no doubts they're genuine.  Send messages, ask questions, get to know these folks and you'll realize they're genuine.

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smatofu
On 4/18/2021 at 12:48 PM, Collectorpalms said:

I think copper Fungicide should be applied in the fall and before the big freezes as a preventive. It needs to be in the system of the plant. There is no indication that I have heard in Texas that copper fungicide has helped any freeze damage palms pull through once applied AFTER the freeze. 

I think that could be a subject of a new thread. From my observations, spears are usually so tightly jammed inside the crown that nothing gets inside. So basically, we can spray as much as we want, but no medication gets deep where the critical damage is.

 

 

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smatofu
15 minutes ago, smatofu said:

I think that could be a subject of a new thread. From my observations, spears are usually so tightly jammed inside the crown that nothing gets inside. So basically, we can spray as much as we want, but no medication gets deep where the critical damage is.

 

On my Trachy Fortunei the damage was 1 1/2 ft deep and on Sabal Mexican 3 ft deep. I kept spraying copper and peroxide but I am sure it got only a couple of inches deep; nowhere as deep as the damage was. 

So spraying is better than nothing, but I think it has limited effectiveness.  

Edited by smatofu
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