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Sabal palmetto, Butia Capitata, Livistona Chinensis or Brahea Armata?

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Peachs

For decorative outdoor pot.

Spain-Salamanca, -8 ° to 35 °C

Which one has better growth, winter recovery, cold resistance, pot survival ...?

 Which one do you choose?

Thanks.

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Xerarch

All of those are hardy to -8 C except maybe Livistona chinensis, Sabal palmetto is the most cold tolerant.  What is the -8 C? the coldest average winter? the all time record low? For beauty in a pot I vote Butia capitata/Butia Odorata those gray arching leaves are elegant and would be my preference for a pot out of those. 

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Peachs
3 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

All of those are hardy to -8 C except maybe Livistona chinensis, Sabal palmetto is the most cold tolerant.  What is the -8 C? the coldest average winter? the all time record low? For beauty in a pot I vote Butia capitata/Butia Odorata those gray arching leaves are elegant and would be my preference for a pot out of those. 

-8°C is the minimum annual temperature, maybe 1 or 2 days just ...

For growth, rapidity, how would you order them?

 

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Xerarch

All of those are slow growers, I don't have enough experience individually to rank them, but I know they're all slow.

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Collectorpalms

Livistonia is the fastest. Butia is next and the one that will look best it the pot and more cold hardy.

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Fusca

Sabal palmetto would be the most cold hardy and the slowest.  Sabals just don't do very well in containers - they speed up in the ground and palmetto is slow in the ground.  Livistona chinensis is not very leaf hardy (leaf damage starts around -5°C) but is very bud hardy.  My L. chinensis is surviving from experiencing -13°C in February.  If you can get a mule palm (Butia x Syagrus) or Jubaea x Butia they would grow much faster and have similar or better cold hardiness than Butia and therefore will recover from damage faster.  Brahea armata can grow faster if provided enough water.  I don't know how well it grows in a container but it is quite cold hardy especially when the cold is dry cold vs. rainy/snowy/humid cold.

Edited by Fusca
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Collectorpalms

If you be an get a sizeable Brahea Armata that would be just as nice as a Butia, 

but rule out Sabal for not liking a pot, and Livistonia for not leaf hardy to -8*.

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Peachs
17 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

If you be an get a sizeable Brahea Armata that would be just as nice as a Butia, 

but rule out Sabal for not liking a pot, and Livistonia for not leaf hardy to -8*.

 

23 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Sabal palmetto would be the most cold hardy and the slowest.  Sabals just don't do very well in containers - they speed up in the ground and palmetto is slow in the ground.  Livistona chinensis is not very leaf hardy (leaf damage starts around -5°C) but is very bud hardy.  My L. chinensis is surviving from experiencing -13°C in February.  If you can get a mule palm (Butia x Syagrus) or Jubaea x Butia they would grow much faster and have similar or better cold hardiness than Butia and therefore will recover from damage faster.  Brahea armata can grow faster if provided enough water.  I don't know how well it grows in a container but it is quite cold hardy especially when the cold is dry cold vs. rainy/snowy/humid cold.


The initial idea is to keep in pot for many years, so I discard palm trees that suffer in it ... Suitable for pot then, Brahea or Butia?  The alternative is Butiagrus but they are very expensive and perhaps growing fast it is too much for a pot.

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Ryland

It sounds like the Butia or Brahea are coming out on top here, which I would agree with.  Beyond that it surely must be personal preference on what you like the look of best?  Brahea are very slow but given your summer heat, maybe the growth rate would be similar for the two.  I have a Brahea that will be going into the ground soon and it's gorgeous, one of my favourite palms.  I also have a Butia that is going to stay potted for the foreseeable and it looks graceful and stunning.  Personally, I think its form and stature are more suited to a pot.  Here's a recent photo of mine if it helps.  I'd take another one with a less busy background, but it's dark now.

IMG_1569.thumb.JPG.cf05a58179955248444ce6cb5397b6a1.JPG

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Peachs
1 hour ago, Ryland said:

It sounds like the Butia or Brahea are coming out on top here, which I would agree with.  Beyond that it surely must be personal preference on what you like the look of best?  Brahea are very slow but given your summer heat, maybe the growth rate would be similar for the two.  I have a Brahea that will be going into the ground soon and it's gorgeous, one of my favourite palms.  I also have a Butia that is going to stay potted for the foreseeable and it looks graceful and stunning.  Personally, I think its form and stature are more suited to a pot.  Here's a recent photo of mine if it helps.  I'd take another one with a less busy background, but it's dark now.

IMG_1569.thumb.JPG.cf05a58179955248444ce6cb5397b6a1.JPG

The worst thing about Butia is that it is more horizontally invasive, the Brahea is more vertical.

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PricklyPearSATC

When I looked at the climate it looks like it gets below freezing quite frequently.  With the average daily low of -.7 C or 31 F

I would probably go with trachycarpus for a pot.  I don't know if Brahea would be hardy in a pot at those temps?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamanca

Screenshot_2021-04-07 Villagonzalo de Tormes, Spain Weather Calendar Weather Underground.png

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Peachs
36 minutes ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

When I looked at the climate it looks like it gets below freezing quite frequently.  With the average daily low of -.7 C or 31 F

I would probably go with trachycarpus for a pot.  I don't know if Brahea would be hardy in a pot at those temps?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamanca

Screenshot_2021-04-07 Villagonzalo de Tormes, Spain Weather Calendar Weather Underground.png

I already have several T. Fortunei and a W. Filifera.  They spend the winter well.  If it is true that this year January has been very hard, it is not normal.
 

2-D749-EEA-A275-4563-86-D6-D5-A0-E80-DFE

 

146€ €  What do you think?

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Peachs
20 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Many years....., Brahea Armata. 

I finally bought the Brahea Armata, thank you all very much, I hope it goes well in the pot.

The same as the image above.

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Collectorpalms

That’s a very nice Brahea Armata. You can’t find anything like that in Texas. Do you have any pictures of palms in your town? Before or after this winter. I know I saw Madrid had a massive amount of snow. Wasn’t that very rare?

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Fusca
12 minutes ago, Peachs said:

I finally bought the Brahea Armata, thank you all very much, I hope it goes well in the pot.

Very nice!  Post a pic once you get it in your pot.  :) 

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aegean

Incredible, that this Brahea Armata could grow that big in such a small pot.

Btw, pot size is of course an important factor in terms of cold hardiness and growth performance.

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Peachs
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

That’s a very nice Brahea Armata. You can’t find anything like that in Texas. Do you have any pictures of palms in your town? Before or after this winter. I know I saw Madrid had a massive amount of snow. Wasn’t that very rare?

This year was extraordinary with the snow and the cold, it is not normal.  I send you photos when I receive it.

914-C1-DE6-D1-E1-4795-93-E9-D09-E81-B617

T. Fortunei

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Peachs
52 minutes ago, aegean said:

Incredible, that this Brahea Armata could grow that big in such a small pot.

Btw, pot size is of course an important factor in terms of cold hardiness and growth performance.

Can it be transplanted from the ground to the pot to sell?

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Collectorpalms

It might have been grown in a field and put into that small pot. Did you look inside the pot to see if new roots are growing and circling the pot or are they cut.?

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Peachs
44 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

It might have been grown in a field and put into that small pot. Did you look inside the pot to see if new roots are growing and circling the pot or are they cut.?

They just sent me a photo of which they are going to finally send me, I will receive it the following week.

E2829-D62-EE4-E-4-E1-F-8-CAF-AD59-A86-B1

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Collectorpalms

That one looks like it was grown in the pot. I would take that over one that was field dug. 

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Peachs
56 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

That one looks like it was grown in the pot. I would take that over one that was field dug. 

I hope it was grown in the pot.  It seems a bit tilted, I'll try to orient it correctly.

I think it is better than the one in the previous image, at least the pot is more capacity.

Edited by Peachs

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Ryland

Very nice palm and also quite a good price in my opinion (though I'm used to high palm prices in the UK since they are always imported).  You probably already know this, but Brahea are quite sensitive about root disturbance.  Nice to see a little root poking out the bottom of the pot in the photo, suggesting as Collectorpalms said that it's been in that pot a while.

Despite the occasional sharp frosts it seems like your climate will be ok for it (though maybe in an extreme event you need to bring it inside or add some extra protection) - I noticed the climate averages posted earlier are nearly the same as where my mother lives in Oregon, USA:

screen-capture.png.945883487354e9f5148541fdbe2fc74e.png

There, she has had a little Brahea armata I planted in 2008 grow happily but very slowly for more than 12 years now.  It has been minimally protected and completely fine at temperatures a bit below -10, and survived -18 with more robust protection, also a fairly dry climate with warm days and cold nights.  Yours will be quite a lot bigger, to its advantage, though perhaps that is offset by being in the pot.

Anyway good luck - I'm sure it will bring you joy!

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Peachs
1 hour ago, Ryland said:

Very nice palm and also quite a good price in my opinion (though I'm used to high palm prices in the UK since they are always imported). You probably already know this, but Brahea are quite sensitive about root disturbance.   Nice to see a little root poking out the bottom of the pot in the photo, suggesting as Collectorpalms said that it's been in that pot a while.

Despite the occasional sharp frosts it seems like your climate will be ok for it (though maybe in an extreme event you need to bring it inside or add some extra protection) - I noticed the climate averages posted earlier are nearly the same as where my mother lives in Oregon, USA:

screen-capture.png.945883487354e9f5148541fdbe2fc74e.png

There, she has had a little Brahea armata I planted in 2008 grow happily but very slowly for more than 12 years now.  It has been minimally protected and completely fine at temperatures a bit below -10, and survived -18 with more robust protection, also a fairly dry climate with warm days and cold nights.  Yours will be quite a lot bigger, to its advantage, though perhaps that is offset by being in the pot.

Anyway good luck - I'm sure it will bring you joy!

Thanks a lot!  I think it was a correct choice

 Brahea are quite sensitive about root disturbance.
You mean the difficulty of transplanting it to another pot?

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Ryland

Transplanting should be fine, just taking care not to break/separate the roots.  They are best being kept as together as possible, even if just shaped like the old pot they'll eventually realise they have more space.  I was brought up being told that you need to "tease" roots apart before planting anything but that's very much not advisable here (and I think with most palms).  This is another reason, I think, why @Collectorpalms was a bit worried earlier if yours was going to have come straight from the ground and forced into a little pot for sale - the damage to the plant could be bad (but not show up straight away), especially if roots were cut in the process.

I am always amazed at how little root space palms seem to need though, and it's possible that the earlier photo with the tied up Brahea in the tiny pot had been grown there, but it's good to be cautious because you wouldn't want to lose it as a result of the seller's negligence.  The one that you posted most recently as the one you'll be receiving looks fine.

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Fusca
2 hours ago, Peachs said:

Brahea are quite sensitive about root disturbance.
You mean the difficulty of transplanting it to another pot?

If field grown, Brahea (and other root sensitive species of palms like Bismarckia) need to be root pruned in order to relocate the palm.  In other words trenches dug around the perimeter of the palm severing some roots then waiting several weeks to allow new roots to form and this process repeated until it is finally taken out of the ground.  I would ask the seller if it was dug out of the ground or container grown and if it was dug ask them how they dug it out.  If it was container grown and you repot it to a different container it should be fine but just take care with how you handle it.

Before knowing this I dug out a smaller Brahea armata from my yard all at once, moved it to my new house and replanted the same day.  It did not survive lasting just a month or so.  Other palms I relocated the same way such as Butia odorata and mule palm did not need any special treatment and survived the move just fine.

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aegean
23 hours ago, Peachs said:

They just sent me a photo of which they are going to finally send me, I will receive it the following week.

E2829-D62-EE4-E-4-E1-F-8-CAF-AD59-A86-B1

In terms of pot size, this one looks much better to me. You can also see a root coming out of the drainage hole in front. This means that it has been growing for some time in this pot and was not field dug lately.

But I must admit that I liked the colour of the first one more. 

I guess the first one was grown in this pot, but the whole pot was buried in the ground. That's why it looks so dirty. They sure must have cut a lot of roots when they took the pot out of the ground.

 

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Peachs
4 hours ago, aegean said:

In terms of pot size, this one looks much better to me. You can also see a root coming out of the drainage hole in front. This means that it has been growing for some time in this pot and was not field dug lately.

But I must admit that I liked the colour of the first one more. 

I guess the first one was grown in this pot, but the whole pot was buried in the ground. That's why it looks so dirty. They sure must have cut a lot of roots when they took the pot out of the ground.

 

As soon as I receive it, I upload photos.  I have prepared substrate with coconut fiber for better drainage.

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Collectorpalms

It has been said several times on here that Brahea Armata is one that does not transplant well from getting roots cut. I was told to glue the root to seal it, if it breaks. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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aegean
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

It has been said several times on here that Brahea Armata is one that does not transplant well from getting roots cut. I was told to glue the root to seal it, if it breaks. 

I also remember somebody recommending to put the whole pot into the ground instead of taking it out of the pot before planting and possibly harm some roots. The plant's roots would break up the pot later. 

 

 

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Peachs
10 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

It has been said several times on here that Brahea Armata is one that does not transplant well from getting roots cut. I was told to glue the root to seal it, if it breaks. 

Don't scare me!  hehe   I hope it grips without problems, here now the heat begins and it is a good time.

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RyManUtah
4 hours ago, Peachs said:

Don't scare me!  hehe   I hope it grips without problems, here now the heat begins and it is a good time.

Please don’t be put off from the Braheas ease of root disturbance. They are excellent palms for those with the proper patient and climate. They seem to thrive on neglect. They grow slowly enough, you could easily enjoy one in a pot for a decade. 

Brahea grip no problems for me. If in a plastic pot - I tied up the fronds to avoid damaging them and gently place to pot on it’s side momentarily, to massage all sides of the pot and loosening the exterior soil to some extent. Make sure to not damage any roots. I don’t water anything but the hole until I have removed the palm from the pot, as it makes the soil heavy and easy to fall off the roots. Larger plastic pots, I remove the “frisbee” at the bottom and place the entire pot in the planting hole. I don’t plant the pot, I cut away the sides slowly and remove the plastic. Backfill with 75% even moisture of sand/compost - mixed with remaining soil from the hole dig. 
boxed Brahea - the entire box is planted, and the sides removed. The bottom should be left to rot, not slid out from beneath. Backfill the same. 
regardless, trickle running water slowly the entire time you are planting it. If planting in “not winter” I will notice the spear twitch (growth) within the first two weeks if I keep it watered during this time. After you notice growth, feed it once. 
good luck, 

cheers :greenthumb:

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Peachs
50 minutes ago, RyManUtah said:

Please don’t be put off from the Braheas ease of root disturbance. They are excellent palms for those with the proper patient and climate. They seem to thrive on neglect. They grow slowly enough, you could easily enjoy one in a pot for a decade. 

Brahea grip no problems for me. If in a plastic pot - I tied up the fronds to avoid damaging them and gently place to pot on it’s side momentarily, to massage all sides of the pot and loosening the exterior soil to some extent. Make sure to not damage any roots. I don’t water anything but the hole until I have removed the palm from the pot, as it makes the soil heavy and easy to fall off the roots. Larger plastic pots, I remove the “frisbee” at the bottom and place the entire pot in the planting hole. I don’t plant the pot, I cut away the sides slowly and remove the plastic. Backfill with 75% even moisture of sand/compost - mixed with remaining soil from the hole dig. 
boxed Brahea - the entire box is planted, and the sides removed. The bottom should be left to rot, not slid out from beneath. Backfill the same. 
regardless, trickle running water slowly the entire time you are planting it. If planting in “not winter” I will notice the spear twitch (growth) within the first two weeks if I keep it watered during this time. After you notice growth, feed it once. 
good luck, 

cheers :greenthumb:

Thank you very much!

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