Heliconia Thread

[Dartolution]

On 10/23/2023 at 10:48 PM, mnorell said:

I'm growing it out in the California desert...a nice, healthy clump, but in too much shade . It lives over here just fine, though it hasn't flowered for me yet. I have to expose it a bit more to get it enough sun to bloom. But in fact it had one of the best winter appearances of the Heliconias that came through our last, long, unusually chilly winter here. It took right down to the low 30s a half-dozen times or so with no problem.

I checked my notes from when we lived in Natchez, and I had one in the ground and let it overwinter one year (2008/9), it was killed to the roots and I dug it up in early spring to check its status, and it was damaged but still partially alive after a winter with I think two or three (as typical) hard freezes to the low 20s. I salvaged and potted what was left alive of the rhizome but it apparently faded out, and I never replaced it. So I would suggest that you either lift your entire clump and greenhouse it over winter, or at least cut a large portion of it and do so, as I'm pretty sure you will never see it overwinter successfully. But I think that once it is a fairly large clump (after 1-2 years) it will probably make it from shoot to flower in one season due to its psittacorum parent. Heliconias are just slow and frustrating when they're young, they really take a couple of years usually until they feel comfortable expending the energy to flower. Give it the hottest, sunniest spot you have to make sure you see results as quickly as possible.

@mnorell you are a wealth of information yet again! Unfortunately I do not believe it to be a suitable potted heliconia in my area. After 3 years and a very large (28" pot) absolutely brimming to the top I too noticed that of all my heli's it overwintered the best, but even the 2 yr old shoots refused to flower. 

I took numberous divisions (all of which were extremely successful) and despite it being grown in near to full sun - no flowers. I also changed the medium in the pot, and made sure to use extra bone meal as per usual with all my others. This season it once again got a healthy dose of bone meal, and a high phosphorous feed 2x monthly from april - september. None of the divisions (which grew to over 5-6ft) flowered despite this, and the mother clump while still growing to 5-6 foot with robust large shoots did not flower. 

So as of earlier this month I culled the entire lot of them and to the city landfill they went. 

 

In contrast - "Carmasita" has been an outrageous heli in the landscape and in pots reaching 6-8ft and producing very large numerous flowers. by June - just in time for summer - until who knows when (usually sometime in January). I've taken multiple divisions for next year, and plan to mulch the stand in the landscape just as an experiment. (Don't worry I don't have high hopes for this one). 

 

Another positive experience is my red tip lingulata has finally decided not to hate me anymore and has grown larger this year than any year prior - no flowers yet though. 

Bihai aurea grew well but not as vigorously as I had hoped this year, but is healthy.

I also have a possible mislabeled heli (labeled as Brazilian firefly) but I do not believe it to be this cross. 

 

Anywho - busy weekend moving them all in for a week (dip down into the 30s for a few nights). 

[mnorell]

1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

@mnorell you are a wealth of information yet again! Unfortunately I do not believe it to be a suitable potted heliconia in my area. After 3 years and a very large (28" pot) absolutely brimming to the top I too noticed that of all my heli's it overwintered the best, but even the 2 yr old shoots refused to flower. 

I took numberous divisions (all of which were extremely successful) and despite it being grown in near to full sun - no flowers. I also changed the medium in the pot, and made sure to use extra bone meal as per usual with all my others. This season it once again got a healthy dose of bone meal, and a high phosphorous feed 2x monthly from april - september. None of the divisions (which grew to over 5-6ft) flowered despite this, and the mother clump while still growing to 5-6 foot with robust large shoots did not flower. 

So as of earlier this month I culled the entire lot of them and to the city landfill they went. 

 

In contrast - "Carmasita" has been an outrageous heli in the landscape and in pots reaching 6-8ft and producing very large numerous flowers. by June - just in time for summer - until who knows when (usually sometime in January). I've taken multiple divisions for next year, and plan to mulch the stand in the landscape just as an experiment. (Don't worry I don't have high hopes for this one). 

 

Another positive experience is my red tip lingulata has finally decided not to hate me anymore and has grown larger this year than any year prior - no flowers yet though. 

Bihai aurea grew well but not as vigorously as I had hoped this year, but is healthy.

I also have a possible mislabeled heli (labeled as Brazilian firefly) but I do not believe it to be this cross. 

 

Anywho - busy weekend moving them all in for a week (dip down into the 30s for a few nights). 

I don't know what the secret is with 'Tropics' but it may be just one of those Heliconias that wants to be left alone...and one day, boom! it blooms. Now that I think about it...I remember that I did have one down in the Keys and it bloomed for me, but the plant was so chlorotic on the oolitic limestone rock that functions as substrate...it wasn't worth it. Irma made the decision and took it out with a day of ocean inundation (along with every other heliconia I had).

'Carmasita' was such a great success for me in Natchez, I clocked it at 2-1/2 months from shoot to flower in full sun there, the fastest (non-psitt) Heliconia I've ever seen. But the rhizomes were too much like their parent H. psittacorum in hardiness and they didn't make it over winter. But if you can just lift one or two divisions and keep them potted over winter and put them back in March, you probably know by now that you will have a beautiful big clump filled with inflorescences by summer. It does overwinter here in the low desert without issue, definitely a better performer than the very marginal H. psittacorum, so I feel that it is definitely hardier than H. psittacorum, just not as hardy as its other parent, H. latispatha.

I grow H. aurea out here and it's a comparatively hardy plant but not really what we might want to call "hardy." Most authorities now consider it its own species BTW, I think labeling it a form of bihai may have been a trade-name thing and may never have been officially described as a form of H. bihai...have to look up the details on it. But I lost one out here in the Palm Springs area last winter, it was a very, very chilly winter and it was in too much shade. Held on quite a long time, though but then just collapsed, it couldn't take any more...So I have another and this time it will overwinter with a southern exposure, and we will hope for a warmer season.

I haven't grown 'Brazilian Firefly.' I can, however, and as I have said in the past...suggest that anything that is a form of H. latispatha, or any of the many hybrids with either H. latispatha or H. sp. 'Mexican Gold' are likely to be tough customers and don't mind winter chill at their roots, within reason. Sounds like you go below 20F most winters so that might only leave 'Mexican Gold' as a contender that will come back in spring and still bloom in a season. But it's worth trying the other hybrids. And you could try 'Bali,' it is a hybrid, thought to be a cross of H. schiedeana and/or H. spissa and/or H. collinsiana. I favor (as a guess) H. schiedeana x H. collinseana just from overall morphology but it was a volunteer that showed up I believe at the farm of the late Mark Collins, at his Thailand facility. His son Colton sells it through their company, Plant Group Hawai'i (and he seems to be favoring H. spissa right now as a parent); and you can get it possibly in full plant form (not just a rhizome) from John Goss in Florida (JG's Tropical Plants) and possibly some other vendors online. It's worth a try.
 

[happypalms]

Here’s one I purchased the other day heliconia irrisa a rare one 

[mnorell]

Nice! I think H. irrasa is a little on the tender (and heat-loving) side, hope it does well for you there in NSW! A really unusual species and very, very difficult to obtain here in the US of A.

[happypalms]

Definitely one hard plant to find anywhere if you see a plant you want in your collection buy it no matter how much it cost you may never see that plant again for sale that’s we do it in sunny Australia 

[Dartolution]

11 hours ago, mnorell said:

I grow H. aurea out here and it's a comparatively hardy plant

@mnorell How large is the aurea? Sources are all over the place with its size - everything from 4 ft to 16ft. 

11 hours ago, mnorell said:

H. sp. 'Mexican Gold' are likely to be tough customers

@mnorell I managed to snag a rhizome from an etsy seller this spring - it hasn't grown especially fast for me but it does feel like a sturdy heli.

 

[mnorell]

I've only seen one mature clump of H. aurea, in bloom, at least...at Fairchild. I believe it was the 'Chalko' cultivar but not 100% sure. It was about 4' and in full sun. I think in shadier conditions it could probably go to 8' or so, perhaps even higher.  According to GBIF it hails from about 600' to 6800' elevation, in Colombia. Which could indicate a fairly tolerant plant in terms of diurnal regime of temps. Of course populations may have differing preferences based on elevation...but I would say it seems to respond well to "moderately warm" to "somewhat hot" conditions, although it did survive this summer here for me in the low desert (in a pot, in mostly shade) and we had a dilly of a month this year (either July or August) with extended high temps, topping out numerous times at 115-123F, above average basically the whole month with little to nothing in the way of breaks, though it didn't grow much through that extreme heat. A lot of my Heliconias seemed to stall out during that month and gradually started growing again as summer waned a bit, and most are in good growth now with recent/current highs 85-90, lows 57-65.

The question as usual is--for people like you subject to occasional freezes and a generally chilly winter--can it bloom in a season? And I think it might, but it could take a few years and a certain rhizome-mass to allow that. I'm having enough of a time with establishing it out here in the low desert even with an absence of frost and cool but "decent" winter soil temps, so I haven't even made it to the issue of flowering yet. I know that certain bihais, like 'Jacquinii,' can bloom very quickly off a new stalk, even though they are usually second-season bloomers. But your issue is going to be winter protection, particularly getting it through the extended chill and cold, wet soil...so you might want to just keep it in a pot and plunge it every year, then remove it to a greenhouse for the cold months...rinse, repeat. Heliconias are very odd and don't read books, the seasonal species/cultivars "usually" do something on schedule but throw odd flowers when you don't expect them sometimes. I don't think anyone has an explanation, really, and it's probably some self-protective randomization to allow reproduction should environmental/pollinator systems change from the 'norm.' Eric Schmidt @Eric in Orlando may have tried this species at Leu Gardens in Orlando, his experiences could give some added dimension to this discussion...Eric?

[Dartolution]

9 hours ago, mnorell said:

But your issue is going to be winter protection, particularly getting it through the extended chill and cold, wet soil...

@mnorell No issue - this one won't be trialed in ground here (no room anymore). So, potted it is. Ive mixed in 20% horticultural charcoal into my mix to help all my helis with root issues during winter. So far they all have responded really well. This winter will tell. 

I would like to hear what @Eric in Orlando experience is if this is the case. 

[mnorell]

There are a couple of strategies to deal with the root-rot thing in pots for Heliconias (and I have more or less mentioned this in some other thread in the) but I was having so many losses due to a dry top and soggy bottom in each pot...I finally read up on it and began to research the "perched water table" that occupies the (more or less) bottom third of each pot...in short the gravitational forces on the water draining out is countermanded by the upward capillary action, and you will always have a soggy bottom...so to speak🙂 Using coarser media on the bottom will just make matters worse, it should be even material/mix top to bottom in the pot. BUT you can help by providing ventilation in the sides of the pot (especially that bottom third). I started using net-pots/orchid-pots (I buy them from Amazon) which have openings all around the pot, then I wick away the extra moisture by either stringing some sort of absorbent wicking (like reverse hydroponics) through the holes in the lower third with plenty of wicking outside the pot...this will draw the extra moisture out using capillary action, then evaporate over the surface area of the wick. The other thing you can do is to use a pot-in-pot method where you bury the pot's lower third in another pot of something absorbent (like orchid moss) and make sure it makes contact with the medium in the main pot. This will also draw out the extra moisture from the perched water table. You will get the bonus of some nice roots growing out the drainage holes into the lower pot as well. Then perhaps use a greenhouse heat-mat underneath to make sure you don't run into that wet chill that kills everything. I have found both of these methods to be incredibly superior to planting in a standard pot. If you can't find or don't want to use the net-pots, you might think about using unglazed clay pots, as the clay will wick out the moisture and transfer it out to the atmosphere...more slowly than the wicking, but it will help.

[thyerr01]

Given the current discussion of overwintering Heliconias, I have a question for folks here. I started several from rhizomes this summer with decent success, but I have been debating how I want to handle their first winter. Most are around 60 cm (2 ft) high with 1-2 stems, all various flavours of H. latispatha or latispatha hybrids. I have a large protected, south-facing raised bed where I intend to put them, but I am undecided if their best chance is to go into the bed now, or keep them in pots through the winter. We probably won't get a freeze here until January, but I also don't know how much more growth I am going to get as the weather cools off. They are potted in a 50/50 mix of potting soil and perlite which seems to be working ok, but might hold too much water in winter. I'm currently leaning towards just putting them in the bed and hoping for some more warm weather, or perhaps just planting half of them?

[Dartolution]

@thyerr01 As the weather cools and nightime temps drop into the low 60s and 50s growth all but comes to a creep in my experience. 
Also, I have never had good luck transplanting (even as an annual) unless the rhizomes/starter pot is very well established - so you might opt to overwinter them in their starter containers for the first winter and then plant once spring weather returns and temps are acceptable. 

 

Alternatively, if you have many starts you can always just run an experiment as you suggested, and put half in, and overwinter the other half in pots and see how everything fairs. 

 

I took 28 divisions of my Lady Di psittacorums about 2-3 weeks ago  and have 4 starter pots of them now each with at least 3 starts - and another 4 gallon pot still full from this summer. If you have starts - play with them and see what happens LOL 

[thyerr01]

@Dartolution Thanks for the info about transplant success and size, I might try just a couple of the largest ones. Based on their growth so far, I'm guessing its going to take another year in the pots to reach anything near the size of the ones you posted.

Given the size of the rhizomes, everything is in 3 G pots which take a while to dry. I believe you mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that you let them get surprisingly dry to avoid rotting. Is mild curling of the leaves a sufficient indicator of dryness before watering again?

Hopefully I can get away with keeping everything outside in as much sun as possible and only bring them in the event of a freeze, which should be much less frequent than you experience.

[mnorell]

I agree with Shawn, either do a half/half test in your raised bed + inside/greenhouse; or do all greenhouse; or as you mention, leave them outside mostly and bring in only when a front moves through and threatens 30s or below. In Houston I would personally do the latter, which will also prevent spider-mites and such that haunt houseplants and greenhouse subjects. H. latispatha is a tough plant and handles fairly wet soil without too many problems (usually)...but you will always have the problem that the lower third of the pot will be far wetter than the upper 2/3rds, and this makes even moisture control difficult to achieve. But in any event, place the pot against a south-facing wall if possible, to maximize warmth. They can take full sun. And you can set the pot about 1/3 of its depth in the soil, which will really help (see my notes above).

With Heliconias, you always want the plant in the smallest possible pot that can accommodate the plant and root-mass. This is so that overwatering/drenching the root-zone will be very difficult. Coarser media with regular watering is better than dense soil upon which you wait for a "dry out." The latter technique is a very bad situation in cool/cold temperatures.

[Dartolution]

20 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

Given the size of the rhizomes, everything is in 3 G pots which take a while to dry. I believe you mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that you let them get surprisingly dry to avoid rotting. Is mild curling of the leaves a sufficient indicator of dryness before watering again?

@thyerr01 Depends on the species - but in general yes - in an indoor environment they require far less water than you would think. Trust me I've killed enough of them due to root rot to know. The best indicator of dryness is just to stick your finger in the soil, and lift up on the pot - light pot, dry soil - give it a drink; moist soil & a heavy pot - leave it alone! Light levels and temperature will directly effect the frequency of watering in winter. 

 

20 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

Hopefully I can get away with keeping everything outside in as much sun as possible and only bring them in the event of a freeze, which should be much less frequent than you experience.

@thyerr01 This is exactly what I try to do. As long as daytimes are in the 70s and lows are above 45 I usually try and keep mine outside on the patio as much as possible - even if its just for 3days to a week between cool snaps. They really seem to do better this way. 

 

16 hours ago, mnorell said:

With Heliconias, you always want the plant in the smallest possible pot that can accommodate the plant and root-mass. This is so that overwatering/drenching the root-zone will be very difficult. Coarser media with regular watering is better than dense soil upon which you wait for a "dry out." The latter technique is a very bad situation in cool/cold temperatures.

This! 

To add to this - when it comes time to repot a full pot - do not go up more than 1 pot size and do not disturb the roots when transplanting. Simply lift, and plant. A lot of gardners tend to rough up the rootball and I have never had good things happen when I've done this to any species of heliconia. 

 

A testament to @mnorell's post above - I completely rotted my original red tip Lingulata out to nothing more than a pinky finger sized offshoot of a rhizome a year ago. In a last-ditch effort to save it, I potted that tiny division up in aroid mix (fir bark, pumice, charcoal, sand, tree fern fiber) in a 3" slotted orchid pot and it to my amazement rooted rapidly on a shelf in my grow room. Now, its a 5gallon pot that's 6ft tall 8 months later. Im hoping to have some flowers on this one finally next year. 

[ChristianStAug]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:01 AM, MikeB said:

I was very happy to see blooms on my Heliconia latispatha 'orange gyro' after a complete meltdown last winter. It took 25 degrees and had flowers in 6 months.

Hi Mike, 

Just saw you lived up in Ponte Vedra from the FL weather post. Have we met before? Also where did you get this gorgeous Heliconia? I am always frustrated that many take a full 10+ months of growing (no freeze) to get a bloom. I did not know there was a medium sized one that only needed 6 months.

[MikeB]

Christian,

Yes, I live just up A1A from you.  We met a couple years ago at a Palm Society meeting at the St. Johns Botanical Garden.  Send me a P.M. and we can arrange to get you a piece of Heliconia latispatha.

[miamicuse]

My Heliconia Psittacorum 'Lady Di' wilted after last winter's chilly days that went down to the mid 30s and never came back. I got a replacement this week and debating whether I can put it into the ground or keep in pot so I can move it indoors when temperature is expected to drop.

[Than]

I have Heliconia Schiedeana in a pot. It grew like crazy during the summer and the pot is already too small. Last winter it died back to the ground but I suspect the problem was not the cold but spidermites. This winter it still has all its leaves even though it has seen 1 C (34F) already once. This weekend will be another test as we expect another cold snap with temperatures close to freezing.

No flowering yet... obviously

[thyerr01]

I was going to wait until March 1st to declare victory in overwintering my Heliconias, but with a week of warm weather ahead of us I'm doing it early. I was also starting off the next lot of rhizomes... The only casualty was a dwarf orange H. latispatha and I have a second one circling the drain, they were never really thriving before winter so I'm fine weeding them out early.

The plants are a mix of different Ebay H. latispathas, and then H. 'Mexican Gold' or hybrids of 'Mex Gold' parentage. 

More of the same. New rhizomes on the far right are H. acuminata 'Super Cheri' and H. x 'Rauliniana' from Plant Group Hawaii. Everything is destined for a large raised bed on the South side of my house in full sun later in the spring. Hopefully everyone else's faired ok as well.