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CiprianS

Damage assessment after Texas freeze - need to find cold hardy palms

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Jesse PNW

The numbering convention for pot sizes makes no sense.  It all seems like a marketing gimmick.  You cannot put 5 gallons into a 5 gallon pot, nor is it anywhere near the size of a 5 gallon bucket.  They should call it a 10" pot.  

Ciprian, I have totally twisted and mutilated fronds in order to fit them into boxes or the back of my truck.  Occasionally you snap one.  No big deal.  One of the best ways to move larger palms is to lay them on their sides for the ride, even if the fronds get smashed and crammed up along the way.  Everything north of the growing point seems quite disposable.   

Edited by Jesse PNW

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CiprianS
24 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

The numbering convention for pot sizes makes no sense.  It all seems like a marketing gimmick.  You cannot put 5 gallons into a 5 gallon pot, nor is it anywhere near the size of a 5 gallon bucket.  They should call it a 10" pot.  

Ciprian, I have totally twisted and mutilated fronds in order to fit them into boxes or the back of my truck.  Occasionally you snap one.  No big deal.  One of the best ways to move larger palms is to lay them on their sides for the ride, even if the fronds get smashed and crammed up along the way.  Everything north of the growing point seems quite disposable.   

Jesse, as my wife was just telling me, is it worth it to pay $104 for a 14 G one when I will cut those bug and nice leaves after since I smashed them during transport? Or should I just get the 7 G one? It is true that the 14 G one is a more mature one but I am just wondering.

Now as another point, until now I only got cold hardy palms, this Bismarckia that I intend to get is not cold hardy at all and besides this the fronds are not good friends with strong winds from hurricanes as far as I was reading.

But, the Bismarckia is such a beautiful palm that I can't resist buying it even if during the winter if we will have another arctic blast in the future my wife will send me to sleep outside with the Bismarckia to keep it warm. :D 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
15 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

this Bismarckia that I intend to get is not cold hardy at all

What is your definition of cold hardy ? Bizzies are almost bulletproof in South Houston. Mine faired better then my mule palm after February's freeze. You honestly can't go wrong with a Bismarkia. 

T J 

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CiprianS
7 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

What is your definition of cold hardy ? Bizzies are almost bulletproof in South Houston. Mine faired better then my mule palm after February's freeze. You honestly can't go wrong with a Bismarkia. 

T J 

Their label from Acosta farms showed up to 30 F. Were they wrong? 

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Xenon
39 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Now as another point, until now I only got cold hardy palms, this Bismarckia that I intend to get is not cold hardy at all and besides this the fronds are not good friends with strong winds from hurricanes as far as I was reading.

That's an overstatement, easily could've planted a Bizzie in most of Houston in the early 90s and ended up with a 30 year old palm a few months ago. Jury is still out on survival after this year's freeze but I bet some of the Bismarckia will survive considering some queen palms are alive. They performed similarly or even better than queen palms in past freezes. 

There are/were some that were around 15-20 years old or more completely unprotected and out in the open. 

Edited by Xenon

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Jesse PNW

I'm no expert, but; bend, fold, smash the fronds as needed for transport.  But don't cut them until they're for sure dead.  They're solar panels that power new growth.  Don't unplug them for no reason, you can't plug them back in.  And they sometimes amaze you with how malleable they can be.  I've never transported a Bismarckia but I have moved queens, mules, sabals, butias, and Trachycarpus in tight places and have found the fronds to be very malleable and resilient.  Roll them slowly in broad graceful curves if possible.  

I have also changed my mind these last few months - I used to buy smaller, cheaper palms.  Now, I think it is totally worth buying a palm with a larger root system.  Just my opinion.  

I've been following the Texas Palmageddon thread fairly regularly.  The bismarckias have surprised me.  As have queens and CIDP's.  But again, I am no expert. 

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CiprianS

Ok... I am convinced now. In the evening I will go to Pasadena and get one of the 14G Bismarckia. But, as another question, would the 7G one reach the size of the 14G one after one season?

And now talking about Queens, in my area all of them are dead, I haven't seen any to have survived the arctic blast.

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Reyes Vargas
10 hours ago, CiprianS said:

Their label from Acosta farms showed up to 30 F. Were they wrong? 

You shouldn't pay attention to the labels.  Those label information is almost always wrong.  The bizzies in the RGV took temps down to 23° and possible lower and they all survived.  There were maybe a few that did die.  Bizzies are way more cold hardy than what a lot of people believe.

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Jtee
8 minutes ago, Reyes Vargas said:

You shouldn't pay attention to the labels.  Those label information is almost always wrong.  The bizzies in the RGV took temps down to 23° and possible lower and they all survived.  There were maybe a few that did die.  Bizzies are way more cold hardy than what a lot of people believe.

My bizmark supposedly survived 16 degrees in Beaumont outside at a nursery. I did get spear pull on it but it’s growing a new frond now.

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Reyes Vargas
22 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

would the 7G one reach the size of the 14G one after one season?

I don't think that the 7G will reach 14G size in one year.  When you plant a palm they will spend that first year establishing itself.  It will spend it's energy spreading it roots out.  I would say that by the second year it will start growing faster.  I would get that palm in the ground ASAP so that it has enough time to get established.

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CiprianS

I did it... I went this afternoon to Pasadena (TX) Lowe's and bought two 14G Bismarckia Nobilis. Before I got there I also stopped to Pearland (TX) Lowe's to take a look at the 7G ones which I said no thank you to. The brickseek.com website was showing five 7G ones on stock at Pearland, they only had two actually. The brickseek.com was showing five 14G ones at Pasadena and they had five and when I checked this evening after I bought two, it was showing a stock of three so it seems that their system keeps on doing its job in updating the stocks.

Anyway, I did not damage them during transport, although they were bigger than the space I was able to get them after folding the back seats. I ended up with them on my front center arm rest. I measured them and from the ground to the highest leaf they have 90+ inches. The moving blankets that I used kept my car clean. :) 

7G Bismarckia from Pearland to which I said no to (there were two there, the second one is behind the first one).

XYDb5eW.jpg

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The two 14G ones put on the cart at Pasadena.

OH4xC8d.jpg

The two 14G ones after I got home and as I look at them they look terribly well, I was expecting to smash a little bit their fronds but they are not as sensitive as I thought they would be.

Qp69Jqv.jpg

wn5rPrT.jpg

MJjCwf8.jpg

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@CiprianS good looking palms there. Really hard to beat some well grown Bizzies. 

T J 

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CiprianS
12 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@CiprianS good looking palms there. Really hard to beat some well grown Bizzies. 

T J 

They look great, otherwise I would not have bought them. :)  You guys actually encouraged me to get them because I was kind of afraid of their cold hardiness.

Anyway, what soil should I use for planting them? Normally every time I was using the Miracle-Gro® Cactus, Palm & Citrus for the palms that I planted every time and they all did fine with it. Now 

It is going to be a struggle to plant them since they are heavy and there is just me and my wife doing it. I have to be more than careful with their roots because as far as I remember they are very sensitive. 

I hope tomorrow I will manage to plant one of them, but I am aiming to plant both of them actually, it depends on what I will be digging into again. :) The ones from Phil (the Sabal Riverside) were very easy to plant since I did not dig in any roots. The Canaries in the front killed me because I had lots of roots from some huge Oaks that I removed two years ago from my front yard. Fingers crossed that I don't get into roots again also in my back yard with the Bizzies.

I just measured them again, from the top of the soil in the pots until their highest point, one is 70 inches and the other one is 72 inches.... I was wrong with the 90+ inches OA height yesterday, I think I was very enthusiastic. :D 

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CiprianS

It seems that I had some inspiration to go yesterday after the two Bismarckia because I checked earlier today the stock inventory from Pasadena (TX) Lowe's and they are gone. I hope one of you guys got them and not Palm Professionals Sugar Land or some other "nice nurseries" to sell them with probably triple the price after. The ones of 7G that were with $59 at Lowe's I saw them one or two months ago at Palm Professionals Sugar Land with $275 or $375.

Anyway, I did more than I was saying earlier, I actually planted one of the two palms, tomorrow I will plant the other one if it won't pour all day long. I hope it will get established pretty soon, that is why I planted it as soon as I could.

Below is one photo with it in the ground. 

vRu5Wgr.jpg

Edited by CiprianS
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Fusca
26 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

It seems that I had some inspiration to go yesterday after the two Bismarckia because I checked earlier today the stock inventory from Pasadena (TX) Lowe's and they are gone. I hope one of you guys got them and not Palm Professionals Sugar Land or some other "nice nurseries" to sell them with probably triple the price after. The ones of 7G that were with $59 at Lowe's I saw them one or two months ago at Palm Professionals Sugar Land with $275 or $375.

Anyway, I did more than I was saying earlier, I actually planted one of the two palms, tomorrow I will plant the other one if it won't pour all day long. I hope it will get established pretty soon, that is why I planted it as soon as I could.

Below is one photo with it in ground. 

vRu5Wgr.jpg

Looks great Ciprian, but that's awfully close to that Sabal.  That Bismarckia is going to get really big!

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CiprianS
1 minute ago, Fusca said:

Looks great Ciprian, but that's awfully close to that Sabal.  That Bismarckia is going to get really big!

My idea was to have some privacy there for a few years at the fence line before they grow over it. 

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Fusca
2 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

My idea was to have some privacy there for a few years at the fence line before they grow over it. 

For sure that Bismarckia will give you the privacy before that Sabal will!  :)

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CiprianS

I am just curios how fast is the Bismarckia going to grow. Unfortunately, the Sabals are going to be left in the dark since the Bismarckia are landscape focal points. But, I was crazy and I wanted to replace what I lost with new ones. 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
9 hours ago, CiprianS said:

I am just curios how fast is the Bismarckia going to grow. Unfortunately, the Sabals are going to be left in the dark since the Bismarckia are landscape focal points. But, I was crazy and I wanted to replace what I lost with new ones. 

please tell me that isn't your sabal Riverside next to your Bizzie ? If it is those to will be fighting each other for room in no time =/ 

T J 

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

@CiprianS I bought a S.Riverside from @Phil 2 years ago about the same size as yours and that bad boy is getting huge. Bizzies are actually fairly fast palms once they get established. Vertical height not so much but width wise yes =) 

T J 

20210505_180336.jpg

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Fusca
2 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

please tell me that isn't your sabal Riverside next to your Bizzie ? If it is those to will be fighting each other for room in no time =/ 

T J 

My point exactly!  Nice choice of palms though - I like the biggies too!  :)

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

Looks great Ciprian, but that's awfully close to that Sabal.  That Bismarckia is going to get really big!

 

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CiprianS
4 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

please tell me that isn't your sabal Riverside next to your Bizzie ? If it is those to will be fighting each other for room in no time =/ 

T J 

That is exactly the Sabal Riverside next to the Bismarckia. Right now the Bismarckia is bigger and I assumed that its crown will be at a bigger height compare to the Sabal. In case they will stay at the same height if the Sabal will catch the Bismarckia then they will compete indeed for space and create a window of privacy there at the back fence line. I guess a pool is what is missing from my backyard, to have it with the palms behind. :) 

3 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

@CiprianS I bought a S.Riverside from @Phil 2 years ago about the same size as yours and that bad boy is getting huge. Bizzies are actually fairly fast palms once they get established. Vertical height not so much but width wise yes =) 

T J 

20210505_180336.jpg

Then in this case if the Bismarckia will take off in width, I will put my money on the Sabals that they will take off in height. :) If not, as I said before, let them stay there and create my backyard jungle. 

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

My point exactly!  Nice choice of palms though - I like the biggies too!  :)

 

I could not stop myself from buying these two Bismarckias to tell you the truth, Jon! :) It seems that I was inspired to plant one of them yesterday because we had a bad storm last night that almost knocked down the one not planted down. I dragged it in my garage and it slept there overnight. 

@edit: I have just measured the distance between the Sabal and the Bismarckia trunks (if I can call it like that because the Sabal does not have a trunk), it is 60 inches from trunk to trunk.

Edited by CiprianS

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OC2Texaspalmlvr
5 hours ago, CiprianS said:

I have just measured the distance between the Sabal and the Bismarckia trunks (if I can call it like that because the Sabal does not have a trunk), it is 60 inches from trunk to trunk.

at that distance they will definitely compete for sun. Most likely the Bizzie will get vertical first with the head start. My money is on the S.Riverisde being your guaranteed focal point one day haha. If we get our normal 10a winters then your Bizzies will get acclimatized. Very good start to your backyard jungle. 

T J 

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CiprianS
3 hours ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

at that distance they will definitely compete for sun. Most likely the Bizzie will get vertical first with the head start. My money is on the S.Riverisde being your guaranteed focal point one day haha. If we get our normal 10a winters then your Bizzies will get acclimatized. Very good start to your backyard jungle. 

T J 

I thought about it better and I will start moving some Sabals, the two Riversides and also two Palmetto seedlings. Please ignore the three roots from some Crepe Myrtle that I had in the backyard and I haven't removed until now... since I moved I have been redoing the backyard, front yard and now I am redoing after this nasty freeze. :) 

Below is what I will move from what I currently have and what distances will remain after moving. From left to right I will be moving the Small Sabal Palmetto Seedling (#2), the Sabal Riverside (#1), the Sabal Riverside (#4), and the Small Sabal Palmetto Seedling (#3).  After moving the four Sabals that I mentioned I will be having the first Bismarckia at nine Feet from the Washingtonia and another nine feet from the Chamaerops Humilis.  And the second Bismarckia will be at ten Feet from the Chamaerops Humilis and nine Feet from the second Washingtonia that I will probably remove soon and replace it with something else.

Below is the photo of what I said that I will be doing with the distances and the marked Sabals that I will remove from where they are right now.

 

93PeOW4.jpg

 

Now, on one of the sides from my backyard I will start doing arrangements with what I currently have (six Small Sabal Palmetto Seedlings and two Small Palmettos) and the four that I am moving from between the Bismarckia. I will be doing two equilateral triangles (I hope I put the correct term, that is a triangle that has all of the three lengths equal) and one square. 

Below is the photo with what I want to do there, too. :) 

 

lp05GlK.jpg

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CiprianS

I have another head ache, the Chamaerops Humilis that looks terrible. When I planted it, it was gorgeous, now it started to look worse and worse. It is staying in a hole where it is since before there were some over grown shrubs from the ex owners that I removed and what was eft of them decomposed I guess. 

Should I try to take it out and replant it higher in the same location? It is looking so bad right now but actually it is recovering after the frost but... still it stays there in a very low area that gets a lot of water when it rains. Should I try to take it out and replant it after I add some soil or I will just kill it considering that it is not doing very well and still recovering? Also, from what I was reading, these species does not like to be moved from one part to another. 

Z3XIPvS.jpg

HHcvjaJ.jpg

Edited by CiprianS

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OC2Texaspalmlvr

The S.Riversides that you want to move, how long have they been in the ground ? Do you think you can dig up the whole root ball. Imho I would leave the C.Humilis alone digging it up now might actually kill it. 

T J 

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CiprianS
7 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

The S.Riversides that you want to move, how long have they been in the ground ? Do you think you can dig up the whole root ball. Imho I would leave the C.Humilis alone digging it up now might actually kill it. 

T J 

I was checking this topic, I posted on May 13th that I planted the Sabal Riverside. So that is sixteen days ago. I doubt that they had time to spread their roots since then, that is why I was thinking to move them. And yes, with all of these rains that we had, I can dig up the whole rootball for sure. 

As for the Humilis, I don’t know what to do with it since it has been going downhill even before the freeze. Actually, I should be happy that it’s still alive after the freeze and pushing new fronds. 

Edited by CiprianS

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Fusca
12 hours ago, CiprianS said:

As for the Humilis, I don’t know what to do with it since it has been going downhill even before the freeze. Actually, I should be happy that it’s still alive after the freeze and pushing new fronds.

My largest C. humilis looks very similar.  It was pretty late to show freeze damage so it appeared to be slowly declining.  It should push past the damage but it will take a while before it looks normal again.  They will handle drought very well so with our typical summer heat with minimal rain it should do fine.  What was it doing before the freeze?  This species does not like overhead watering from a lawn sprinkler - especially in winter - so if that was an issue just make sure to water it at ground level and keep sprinkler water off of the crown.

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CiprianS
4 minutes ago, Fusca said:

My largest C. humilis looks very similar.  It was pretty late to show freeze damage so it appeared to be slowly declining.  It should push past the damage but it will take a while before it looks normal again.  They will handle drought very well so with our typical summer heat with minimal rain it should do fine.  What was it doing before the freeze?  This species does not like overhead watering from a lawn sprinkler - especially in winter - so if that was an issue just make sure to water it at ground level and keep sprinkler water off of the crown.

It was declining before the freeze, too. What I think it is killing it is too much water since it is staying in a lower area and actually in a hole.

Edited by CiprianS

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CiprianS

Ok... I thought about it better and I won't make any triangles in the back anymore. I will be moving the two Sabal Riverside and removing completely the five Sabal Palmetto Seedlings that I have on the side in the backyard. 

I will remain with four Sabals on the side there in the following order: Sabal Palmetto, Sabal Riverside, Sabal Riverside, and Sabal Palmetto. Between the first Sabal Palmetto and the first Sabal Riverside I will have ~137 in (11.4 ft), between the first Sabal Riverside and the second Sabal Riverside I will have ~142 in (11.8 ft), and between the second Sabal Riverside and the second Sabal Palmetto I will have ~129 in (10.75 ft). Of course all of these distances may vary a little bit since what I measured is between what I have right now and I might move to the left or right a few inches when I put the two Sabal Riverside between the two Sabal Palmetto that I will keep. All of these measurements are between trunk (if I can call it like that) to trunk.

Below is the photo of what I was thinking. 

lnXy1hF.jpg

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CiprianS

In the back where I have the Bismarckia, I will be moving the two Sabal Riverside and removing the two Small Sabal palmetto seedlings. After I do this I will have a little bit more distance between them: from the first Washingtonia to the first Bismarckia 9 ft, from the first Bismarckia to the Chamaerops Humilis 9 ft, from the Chamaerops Humilis to the second Bismarckia 10 ft, and from the second Bismarckia to the second Washingtonia 9 ft.

The second Washingtonia is dead for sure, I guess I am too lazy to remove it right now but I am just waiting to see what is happening also with the first one that hasn't been moving lately. I will give them probably another one or two weeks and if the first one does not move neither then both of them will be gone. I will be planting two of the small Washingtonia Filifera saplings instead of them and that's it. 

My wife again will kill me since I will be throwing away seven Sabal Palmetto seedlings by doing all of these moves. I think tomorrow I will be doing all of these moves because otherwise there will be too many days since I planted the two Sabal Riverside and I don't want to damage them. Right now the soil is still soaked from all of the rains that we had and I can easily move the two Sabal Riverside.

Any thoughts on these moves that I want to do? Will the distances be ok this time? Below is the photo with what I want to do there, too.

sqSbvwI.jpg

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Jesse PNW

That looks great to me  Looking forward to seeing it in a couple years. 

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CiprianS
43 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

That looks great to me  Looking forward to seeing it in a couple years. 

Thank you. I guess you are talking about how I want to move them around, correct?

Anyway, is anyone in the Houston area that wants eight Sabal Palmetto seedlings that I can give them to? I paid $84 for them on eBay, now I want to give them away for free since I don't have space for them anymore. Since they are so small I can dig them up very easy and give them to whoever wants to come and get them. 

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CiprianS

Ok... I am done, I am not giving anything away anymore, not throwing anything away. :) I have replanted the two Riverside and the two Sabal Palmetto seedlings on the side making those triangles. In the back I only have left the following : Robusta - Bismarckia - Mediterranean - Bismarckia - Robusta. I will remove the Robusta from the right side next week I think and plant one Filifera sapling there. The Robusta from the left time will remain there for another week or two, although it seems that it has stopped growing and there are big chances it is also dead. If it won't move in the next weeks, I will remove it, too.

Below are the photos with how I moved them again. 

gxjHX6O.jpg

aQEOWuX.jpg

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CiprianS

After so many rains that I thought that the Bismarckia won't like, I have just noticed today that one of them started opening one of the two spears that it had. Both of them had two spears, I am waiting for the second one to open one of them, too. :) 

I guess the transport and the transplant did not shock the Bismarckia that much if it started opening the spear so fast.

P14kSym.jpg

Edited by CiprianS

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Reyes Vargas
19 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

After so many rains that I thought that the Bismarckia won't like, I have just noticed today that one of them started opening one of the two spears that it had. Both of them had two spears, I am waiting for the second one to open one of them, too. :) 

I guess the transport and the transplant did not shock the Bismarckia that much if it started opening the spear so fast.

P14kSym.jpg

Those are looking good.  Yours are doing much better than mine did when I planted them.  I planted 3 and all of them lost at least 2 fronds each to sunburn.

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CiprianS
17 minutes ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Those are looking good.  Yours are doing much better than mine did when I planted them.  I planted 3 and all of them lost at least 2 fronds each to sunburn.

I hope they won't get sun burned, if they do, then that's it. But lately there hasn't been a lot of sun, just rain, rain and again rain, maybe that helped them.

You would laugh but I bought two small Bismarckia seedlings from eBay and the sellet said to keep them in shade for one or two weeks. Instead of that, I gave them full sun and both of them have  sent out a new spear since April 9th when I got them. :) 

What Bismarckia did you get and when? Actually, if I remember you are the one that told me that he was finding Bismarckia at Lowe's and that is when I started searching like crazy on brickseek.com at the Lowe's from around me. So, a big thank you for that. :) 

Edited by CiprianS

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Reyes Vargas
28 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

I hope they won't get sun burned, if they do, then that's it. But lately there hasn't been a lot of sun, just rain, rain and again rain, maybe that helped them.

You would laugh but I bought two small Bismarckia seedlings from eBay and the sellet said to keep them in shade for one or two weeks. Instead of that, I gave them full sun and both of them have  sent out a new spear since April 9th when I got them. :) 

What Bismarckia did you get and when? Actually, if I remember you are the one that told me that he was finding Bismarckia at Lowe's and that is when I started searching like crazy on brickseek.com at the Lowe's from around me. So, a big thank you for that. :) 

I got the 6.5 gallon ones in March. They were planted way before we got all this rain.  All the rain we are getting is probably helping your palms.

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CiprianS
1 hour ago, Reyes Vargas said:

I got the 6.5 gallon ones in March. They were planted way before we got all this rain.  All the rain we are getting is probably helping your palms.

That rain is kind of done for now unless something changes. I put some root stimulants to the newly planted and also to the palms that I moved around earlier today. Now I need to treat one of these days for all of these green flies that are in my lawn and also on the palms to get rid of them. It seems that they appeared after the rain, no worries, they will vanish just as they appeared. 

Edited by CiprianS

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CiprianS

I am coming back here... one of the two Bismarckia opened one of the two spears that it had very fast then. The other one keeps on growing the bigger out of the two spears that it has in height but it has not opened it until now. Should I start worrying or just let it be since it keeps on growing in height?

Edited by CiprianS

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