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CiprianS

Damage assessment after Texas freeze - need to find cold hardy palms

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CiprianS

This is my first post here, I hope I am not posting in the wrong section.  I live in the Houston area and two years ago I have started to plant palm trees after I cleaned the landscape of some other trees from my house. Now, after all of the work that I have done to redo my landscaping on my own, at least I see that my lawn is coming back to life. The palm trees, I have or perhaps I should say I had because I don't know how may are still alive, fourteen. 

I have already bought two small Pindo Palms that I keep outside in pots right now but they are slow or best case scenario medium growing. Also, I am looking for some Texas Sabal Palms that I can get but I don't know if I can transplant them since they are in ground and they have from one feet to about three in height and from what I read they are very hard to transplant.

Now, please help me to assess my damage and tell me if I am wrong in my assessment.

One Mexican Fan Palm that I think will survive.

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Another Mexican Fan Palm which I don't know if it will survive or not.

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Two Canary Island Date Palms which I don't know if they will survive or not, the center spears was very easy to remove 2-3 weeks after the freeze, I don't see any green inside any of them.

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Mediterranean Fan Palm, this one hasn't put almost any growth since I planted it two years ago, there is something that it does not like where it is planted, the center of it became a little burned these days, in rest there is almost no change compared to how it was before the freeze.

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These two Pygmy Date Palms, I think they are dead, it was very easy to remove their center spears to all of them very soon after the freeze. 

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These two Sago Palms, I think they will survive, I have removed the frond to one of them, for the other one I did not since it did now fall and it still looked ok, except that it lost its green color.

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These three Sago Palms, one of them has some signs of rot in it and I think it is dead, the first one, the second one I think it is dead, too, I am hopeful about the third one.

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Edited by CiprianS
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Collectorpalms

Welcome to Palm Talk. Unfortunately, you planted palms just before a much harder than normal winter. Most people in Houston are living in a dream land because they missed out of the 20 year freeze. 

The persons on here suggesting plant more of what dies, you should charge their CC and charge them when you have to remove it. 

My suggestions:

1) Get rid of the Pygmy dates and never replant Pygmy. They are dead and should not be a reliable palm for a Houston despite their availability. Again this is just a temporary “high” for Houstonians.

2) Trunk cut the Washingtonia Robustas a few inches till you get to the bottom of the Holes, and/or just put copper fungicide in them once a week.... 

3) also do not re-plant washintonia Robusta in a Houston. While most in Houston made it this winter, they are still not reliable long term. If it’s your wallet having to remove them, you will regret it big time.  
It’s very hard to find washingtonia filifera which is much more cold hardy but they don’t do too well there. Finding the hybrid of the two is the best, but they usually are just Robusta. 
 

4) Canaries can surprise you. Don’t give up yet.... but Definitely remove the fronds and trunk cut those canaries just a few inches. Give the copper fungicide too.  They still have a chance they will come back if the winter stressed diseases don’t get to them.
Older Canaries ( Phoenix Species ) also suffer from diseases in Houston so older ones are nearly gone. I’d probably not plant and a Phoenix species again but keep them if they live.

5) Your Mediterranean is just fine. It will just take a few years to get going. Try not to get sprinkler water in them. They like it high and mostly dry, with exception of normal rainfall.

6) Let the Sagos dry completely out. They can come hack from a trash pile as long as kept dry. Remove the rotted tissue.

7) Sabal palms will not transplant unless they have several feet of trunk. I see Mexican Sabals Sold bare-root with as few as 4ft of trunk but I’d get 8ft minimum.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Xenon

All of the sago palms are almost for sure alive and will be flushing out a new set of leaves in the upcoming weeks (you can already see it in some of your photos).  Everything else looks to be alive and even your Canary dates may pull through. There is a near 100% survival rate for slightly larger (trunking) Canary dates in Houston and even farther north. So you can choose to replant, but they are a poor choice for the area not due to cold but due to disease. They all seem to die from lethal bronzing disease eventually, especially as they reach flowering age. 

The only thing that is 100% dead dead are your pygmy dates. I disagree with "never replanting pygmies". They are pretty cheap/easy to replace, small/easy to protect (or remove), and can last for years or even decades if we have close to mild/"normal" winters. Nothing else can really replace the ferny/lush accent role they serve in the landscape. 

For instant gratification, you can replant/plant more Mexican fan palms. They grow like rockets and are pretty much weeds in Houston.

An overlooked winner in this freeze and widely/cheaply available is Chinese fan palm (Livistona chinensis). I haven't been to town in a few weeks but even out here near Katy (where it gets colder), most of the Chinese fan palms are already pushing green new growth. They look fairly lush/tropical (especially in partial shade) and are well adapted to Houston conditions. 

Welcome to palmtalk! 

Edited by Xenon
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NBTX11

Little surprised your canaries look that bad, they look better in San Antonio and we got a few degrees colder.  All medium to large canaries seem to be pushing green here.

Cut the damaged Robusta down a few inches until you get to green.  There is likely a growing spear in there somewhere.  I see green petioles so that is a good sign.  IMO, Robusta is worth growing in Houston.  It might get to 50 feet tall before another killing freeze comes along.  However, if you can find yourself some seeds from an obvious thicker trunked hybrid Robusta, even better.  Find one of the thicker trunked Robusta around Houston, scoop up some seeds off the ground, and germinate them.  They should be the ones already pushing lots of green.  They germinate super easy and fast.  Plant those in about a year or so.  

Never get attached to any pygmy date palms outside of the RGV.  Even many (all?) in Corpus are toast.  If you can live with them being killed off every 7-10 years, then go for it.  They don't get that tall, so they are easier to cut down if they do die (unlike a 50 foot tall Robusta).

Trim off the dead fronds off the Canaries.  They aren't doing any good at this point.  The Med fans appear fine.  Give them lots of time to repair themselves.

Edited by NBTX11

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NBTX11

PS I hate Butia for here.  At least in the San Antonio area, they look like garbage and die out from the poor soil.  I don't know if this applies to Houston or not.  Get yourself some Butia hybrids with other pinnate or feather palms.  They will probably grow faster than straight Butias also.  And by all means, get yourself some Texas Sabals also.  They survived the freeze in San Antonio just fine, as did Sabal Palmetto. 

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Xenon
20 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

PS I hate Butia for here.  At least in the San Antonio area, they look like garbage and die out from the poor soil.  I don't know if this applies to Houston or not.  Get yourself some Butia hybrids with other pinnate or feather palms.  They will probably grow faster than straight Butias also.  And by all means, get yourself some Texas Sabals also.  They survived the freeze in San Antonio just fine, as did Sabal Palmetto. 

Butia grows fine in Houston. There are many old ones scattered around town that predate the 80s freezes and probably a good deal more than that.

There were some 20+ year old pygmy dates in Houston 8 weeks ago. Really depends on what part of town you are in, with central Houston and they bay/coast obviously being the warmest. 

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CiprianS

Thank you very much for your precious advices.

I have already treated with Copper Fungicide, I read that you can't do that more than twice, I have already treated once and I treated another time two weeks I guess before the freeze. Should I treat again? The second Mexican Fan Palm has been green like that on one of the spears for weeks, I haven't seen any growth there lately. My Canary Island Date Palms actually surprise me because they were looking great before all of this happened.

I am done with the Pygmy Date Palms,  my question is, what about the Medjool Date Palms? How are these ones handling the cold weather? I have three potted inside, the ones from the left and right are probably eight months old and the one from the center is about four if I am not wrong.

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These are the two Butia Capitata (Pindo Palms) that I bought. They grow very slow, maybe I will be lucky as one guy from California that I remember right and his was growing like crazy.

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This is the second Mexican Fan Palm as it was looking before I cut its fronds, the spear that had a little bit of green on it hasn't grown since then, and the photo is taken on March 9th.

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Below are the photos with the two (2) Mexican Fan Palms as they were during the freeze. The one that shows growth is in the first photo.

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Also, the two Canary Island Date Palms are in the photos below, I feel so sorry about them, I was always telling my wife that we paid $30 for each of them and they were looking like the $500 ones now, they grew very fast, and they were planted in April 2019.

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Edited by CiprianS

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Collectorpalms

Sugar Land normally gets colder than Houston proper by the way.
 

Medjools are a named variety of true Date palms. And they are just about as hardy as a canary island date as adults. But they are likely hybrids. They don’t pollinate Medjools with Medjools. They have to be cloned, or pups taken from the mother tree, the male pollen could be any other date species. So nothing grown from a date pit at a grocery store is going to give you a real Medjool date tasting most likely. Plus they have to be grown in a desert with low humidity and no summer rain. Dates are also are Phoenix species so they suffer from disease when older. They are an ornamental in Houston. In the last ten year I have seen hundreds and hundreds die in Houston.


The Pindos should be planted as soon as possible to get them growing. They will look “almost” nice as a Canary. They can both be used as single specimen trees.

Your European looks like it’s in a low areas of your yard. That will lead to black fungus etc.  great advise: don’t get sprinkler water in the crowns of your palms. 
 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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CiprianS

I have planted the seeds for the Medjool palms just for ornamental purposes, no issues there. 
What happens if I keep the Pindos in the pots? When I bought them two weeks ago they were in 5 gallon pots, I replanted them in 15 gallon ones. I am just saying that they are too small to be planted directly in the soil. If I keep them in the pots will they grow slower? I am asking because my intention would be to keep them potted for one year or so until they show some growth. 
Unfortunately, I know about the Mediterranean that it stays on a low ground. I had something else there before and the soil just went down I guess and that is why the Mediterranean went down, too there. I thought to take it out and plant it higher but I read that they are sensible at replanting. But it is obvious that it is not doing good at all. 
Should I treat again with the copper fungicide my Canaries? I really liked them and now...they look awful. 

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Collectorpalms
13 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

I have planted the seeds for the Medjool palms just for ornamental purposes, no issues there. 
What happens if I keep the Pindos in the pots? When I bought them two weeks ago they were in 5 gallon pots, I replanted them in 15 gallon ones. I am just saying that they are too small to be planted directly in the soil. If I keep them in the pots will they grow slower? I am asking because my intention would be to keep them potted for one year or so until they show some growth. 
Unfortunately, I know about the Mediterranean that it stays on a low ground. I had something else there before and the soil just went down I guess and that is why the Mediterranean went down, too there. I thought to take it out and plant it higher but I read that they are sensible at replanting. But it is obvious that it is not doing good at all. 
Should I treat again with the copper fungicide my Canaries? I really liked them and now...they look awful. 

Try to remove all the dead limbs off the canary. More rot And dead tissue the more issue. Also don’t water it. It’s going to add more to disease. I see you have a sprinkler right under it. The copper fungicide isn’t going to cure it if it’s dead. I just have had luck cutting the thing to a stump figuratively without any fungicide, just be careful you don’t cut past were the meristem is. 
I have two adults that look alive and I have two volunteer babies that are just 3 years or so and looking like they survived 5F. 

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CiprianS

Would it help if I try to fertilize the burned palms right now or should I just wait for them to grow some spears and fertilize them then?

I was quoted $750 for one Texas Sabal Palm with a trunk of 6-7 feet, including installation it was $1,150.00 and without transport to my house which is another 28 miles distance. Is that a fair price or can I find them at some better prices?

Also, I was wondering, if Sabals don't like to be transplanted when they don't have a big trunk, then how can they be grow in pots? Wouldn't that also require transplanting or in pots when they are moved that can be done without damaging any roots? 

Coming back to my Mexican Fan Palms, I have just taken more photos of them. 

This is the one that shows growth, should I just cut the leaf that is hanging down under that white rot that I see there in the second photo? I am also seeing some flies there in the area of the green leaf  that is hanging.

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Also, for the second Mexican Fan Palm, the one that does not show any growth, if I cut it to get to the middle of it, that would mean to cut until the level that I am showing in the second photo. Should I do that (cut it with a chainsaw to that level) or just give it peace and wait for it to grow?

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CiprianS

I guess I am too stubborn, so I planted two Sabals, I hope that they are Sabals and not something else. :) I will see in a few weeks if they are also stubborn as I am and they give signs of life or not. 

Also, where can I find the Washingtonia Filifera palms since I keep on reading around here that they are more cold hardy compared to the Robusta?

I think I will open a topic asking about this, should I wait for the weather to get warm again at night, too before I soak the crowns of the Mexicans and also the Canaries with copper fungicide or it does not matter? Also, should I trim tomorrow the burned leaves of the Canaries or again wait a few days (until next week) so that the nights will be warmer?

Below are the two Sabals (as I said, I hope they are Sabals) that I planted earlier in the morning after I took out the Pygmy Dates. I just got back home with some mulch that I also spread around them. Fingers crossed, until now I did not have any Palms or trees that I planted that did not survive.

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Jtee
18 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

I guess I am too stubborn, so I planted two Sabals, I hope that they are Sabals and not something else. :) I will see in a few weeks if they are also stubborn as I am and they give signs of life or not. 

Also, where can I find the Washingtonia Filifera palms since I keep on reading around here that they are more cold hardy compared to the Robusta?

I think I will open a topic asking about this, should I wait for the weather to get warm again at night, too before I soak the crowns of the Mexicans and also the Canaries with copper fungicide or it does not matter? Also, should I trim tomorrow the burned leaves of the Canaries or again wait a few days (until next week) so that the nights will be warmer?

Below are the two Sabals (as I said, I hope they are Sabals) that I planted earlier in the morning after I took out the Pygmy Dates. I just got back home with some mulch that I also spread around them. Fingers crossed, until now I did not have any Palms or trees that I planted that did not survive.

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2QwxAVr.jpg

Where did you find the sabals? And what kind of sabals were they listed as?

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Collectorpalms

The only two palms I didn’t plant myself were two Sabals. In about 2002 I got them for $900 total ( about $250 each), planted with about 90 miles delivery. It was Flamingo Gardens when they were at BW8 and near 10 on west side. They both died after planted. Luckily they had a warranty.
I picked out two more, they showed up with two different ones than the ones I picked out. Nevertheless they lived, and survived 5F. So they were worth it. One was a palmetto, one was a Mexicana but you could tell since they were hurricane cut tops.

once you cut the roots of a Sabal ( field grown) they have to regrow roots. A potted one won’t have this issue as long as your careful. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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CiprianS
37 minutes ago, Jtee said:

Where did you find the sabals? And what kind of sabals were they listed as?

I got them from a friend which just bought a house that did not have such a good yard...he assumed that they came from a neighbor’s Sabals and he just wanted to get rid of them since he was redoing his backyard and he is not a palm fan. So, I honestly don’t know if they are what I am looking for. It is true that some neighbors have there some Texas Sabals but...in rest I don’t know. 

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Collectorpalms

If those Sabals are dug out of the ground then, not good.

Canaries can grow in cool weather. Those dead fronds are not helping.

in my opinion, you need to trunk cut them ASAP because the longer the future growth does not get sun, the more likely they will decline.

Again copper fungicide is not going to save them with that much rot and dead material present.

you can cut that Floppy green frond off the live washintonia robusta or leave it. They are the exception they are fast to replace fronds during spring.

you have to be very careful trunk cutting palms. If you go too far you killed it. I would only cut to the bottom of were the spear pulled. You can always cut more in a few days.

I have been trunk cutting my palms with some success so far. One that I was nearly certain was dead, a Breahea Pimo or nitida?? I forgot, has a tiny spear forming! 
 

I haven’t seen any growth on my Butia hybrids, I am going to cut some more.... I still have a hole in them that collects water and thinks that’s bad. Again I am almost certain these are dead...but was afraid to go too far at first.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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CiprianS

I removed the Canaries leaves this morning, also pulled out some other rotten spears. The idea is that they look very bad. I will treat again with copper fungicide, but I am not very hopeful they will survive, it is time to find some other Canaries. They have grown very fast since I planted them so I think I will go again with some other ones, I will leave them until May I guess, after that, I will remove them. I will put a little bit later some other photos with the Canaries, but first I need to treat them.

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Collectorpalms

Where are you getting your New canaries from if needed? I’d like to plant more. I am worried about getting palms from Houston and bringing home the lethal yellowing diseases and wipe out the Canaries in College Station including mine.

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CiprianS

As I said, I think my Canaries are dead and my hope is almost dead with them. I have pulled some other leaves from the inside of it that were not the middle spear. The middle wholes are very big.

This is what I pulled out again.

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This is the first Canary.

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And this is the second one.

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CiprianS
33 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Where are you getting your New canaries from if needed? I’d like to plant more. I am worried about getting palms from Houston and bringing home the lethal yellowing diseases and wipe out the Canaries in College Station including mine.

I bought them from Garden Center in April 2019 with $29.99 each and they were very small compared to how they were before the freeze. I am going to Enchanted Gardens today, they had some that were a little bit smaller than mine with $599 each if I am not wrong, but they are not worth it in my opinion. Mine grew like crazy until they died...My whole landscaping grew like crazy, the lawn that was a mess and I laid down a lot of sod... etc. I will also try some other places, Garden Center hasn't brought any Canaries yet.

This is how they looked on April 25th 2019 when they were still in pots.

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And this is how they looked on May 17th 2019 (in the middle of some fresh sod there).

DYAI881.jpg

Edited by CiprianS

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Collectorpalms

Those used to be grown in the Southwest. The ones from HGC. Do they have any other palms currently in large containers?

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CiprianS

You are talking about Houston Garden Center I guess... the only big ones that I have seen there are some queens and foxtails now. They keep on bringing more and more, I keep an eye on about 3 Houston Garden Centers that I have in my area.

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Collectorpalms

I trunk cut two Robustas today. One 3 ft one 6ft. Turned out that there were nothing but wide open holes all the way to the bottom. Dead! You can cut more on those canaries if you see an end to the whole, the robustas it was proof that the meristem pulled out 100 percent 

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Collectorpalms

Florida Palms, ugh.

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NBTX11

Those canaries look dead to me. Get rid of them. They’re small and easily replaceable. Normally, you would have seen some type of green by now. All our big ones are pushing green by now. If they were big canaries I’d say wait a while and see what happens. 

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CiprianS

I was thinking the same way. I am on my way to a couple of nurseries, if I find any small Canaries like the ones I had when I bought them two years ago, they’re mine. 

I was looking earlier on eBay and I saw some potted Sabal Palmettos at 4’ height, should I or shouldn’t I get them? I guess I can transplant those way easier compared to some in ground ones.

Edited by CiprianS
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Reyes Vargas
1 hour ago, CiprianS said:

I was thinking the same way. I am on my way to a couple of nurseries, if I find any small Canaries like the ones I had when I bought them two years ago, they’re mine. 

I was looking earlier on eBay and I saw some potted Sabal Palmettos at 4’ height, should I or shouldn’t I get them? I guess I can transplant those way easier compared to some in ground ones.

I have one sabal palmetto that I can ship to you if you just pay for shipping.  I'll take a picture of it tomorrow if your interested.

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CiprianS

Take a photo and let me see what you have there. But may I ask why are you giving it away?

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CiprianS

I went earlier to Enchanted Gardens in Richmond, TX and they don't have any Canaries as I was looking for, just the two big ones which honestly I don't want to pay that much for them. I went to another nursery in Sugar Land and their prices are outrageous. They forgot the label from their vendor I guess to lots of the palms and in some cases they are almost doubling or tripling the prices for which they got them from their vendor. I need to go searching some mom and pop nurseries I guess that are in the middle of nowhere to find something at decent prices.

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Reyes Vargas
11 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Take a photo and let me see what you have there. But may I ask why are you giving it away?

Just don't want it.  I prefer sabal mexicana.

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NBTX11
12 minutes ago, CiprianS said:

Take a photo and let me see what you have there. But may I ask why are you giving it away?

Can't speak for him, but I've given away many palms.  I've germinated tons of Washingtonia and Sabal seedlings in the past.  What am I going to do with them, I don't have room for all of them.

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CiprianS
8 minutes ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Just don't want it.  I prefer sabal mexicana.

I wish you would have been somewhere close to me here and I would have just jumped in the car to come and get it directly. :)

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Xenon

Just wanted to plug Chinese fan palm (Livistona chinensis) again; they look more tropical than Sabal imo and many of them survived the freeze. They are also relatively cheap and easy to find! 

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palm#loverTX

I'm just south of Houston and have large Mexican fan palms and they have each have a rapidly growing brown spear. What's the best way to "cut the trunk" as its being recommended? 

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CiprianS
14 hours ago, Reyes Vargas said:

Just don't want it.  I prefer sabal mexicana.

Have you taken that photo?

13 hours ago, Xenon said:

Just wanted to plug Chinese fan palm (Livistona chinensis) again; they look more tropical than Sabal imo and many of them survived the freeze. They are also relatively cheap and easy to find! 

I don't like the Chinese ones... I started looking at some other ones right now. I have five Filifera seedlings coming to me I think next week and now I am looking at what Sabals I can get and also two CIDP, in fact I will create a topic for this shortly.

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Reyes Vargas
1 hour ago, CiprianS said:

Have you taken that photo?

I don't like the Chinese ones... I started looking at some other ones right now. I have five Filifera seedlings coming to me I think next week and now I am looking at what Sabals I can get and also two CIDP, in fact I will create a topic for this shortly.

Here are the pictures

20210402_085901.jpg

20210402_085848.jpg

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CiprianS

That looks great, I have just sent you a message. 

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Keys6505
2 hours ago, palm#loverTX said:

I'm just south of Houston and have large Mexican fan palms and they have each have a rapidly growing brown spear. What's the best way to "cut the trunk" as its being recommended? 

Don't cut anything if it's growing!  If the spear is moving the green will show sooner rather than later.

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Xenon
2 hours ago, CiprianS said:

I don't like the Chinese ones... I started looking at some other ones right now. I have five Filifera seedlings coming to me I think next week and now I am looking at what Sabals I can get and also two CIDP, in fact I will create a topic for this shortly.

Just in case you have a change of heart...here are a pair of nice Livistona chinensis along with 3 Sabal mexicana. 

chinensis.thumb.JPG.b74af09efa15af685c92f8f6f9d367a4.JPG

Edited by Xenon
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