Jubaea chilensis in Seattle - Washington Park Arboretum -

[Trustandi]

I just visited the park to see the Jubaeas. They are getting much bigger than the last time I went there. I wish mine were that big already. 

[Chester B]

Pretty beefy looking.

[aegean]

Nice photos ! 

Jubaeas are really fantastic palms. I only wished they would grow faster. 

I have 4 seedlings in the ground. The "tallest" is about 7 years old and has a size of only 40 cm / 16 inches.

 

[Trustandi]

@Chester B it is totally going fatter. 

I think they are growing faster when they have a have a nice size trunk. 

Here I just found the same photo of the jubaea (the third photo) from 2015.

[Chester B]

9 hours ago, Trustandi said:

I think they are growing faster when they have a have a nice size trunk.

That wouldn't surprise me, it seems like a lot of palms grow faster the bigger they get.

[Paradise Found]

Thats been my experience too, bigger they are the faster they grow.  

Darn it, now I want one, lol.

[Banana Belt]

On 3/31/2021 at 8:43 AM, Chester B said:

That wouldn't surprise me, it seems like a lot of palms grow faster the bigger they get.

I agree.  Seems like everyone has noticed that too, "grow faster the bigger they get".  Could it be that the larger some palms get the larger the spread and more distant the roots grow the more available nutrients and moisture?

[Chester B]

Bigger palms have more fronds surface area, larger roots, more capacity to store.  I have not seen one palm grow slower when it gets bigger, it takes a few years to reach that critical mass where they really seem to take off.

Think about how long it takes for a seedling Trachy to get to 2' of trunk - 5 years perhaps more.  A Trachy with at least 4' of trunk can do that in a year or even less time.

Has anyone been to see if these Jubaeas made it through last winter?

[NWpalms@206]

7 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Has anyone been to see if these Jubaeas made it through last winter?

I was planning a trip out there end of august to how things were looking. jubaea take forever to show damage. The one on salt spring island that banana joe features, is NOT looking good sadly.

[Chester B]

6 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

I was planning a trip out there end of august to how things were looking. jubaea take forever to show damage. The one on salt spring island that banana joe features, is NOT looking good sadly.

That one is dead, whole center pulled out.  I know PalmDaddy had damage to his on Bowen Island (Off of North Vancouver) but no updated on how its looking these days. 

I wonder if the Seattle ones were protected since we had a pretty good advance warning of the cold.

[Fallen Munk]

Mine is putting on some size this season.  It's only gotten three new fronds so far but they are getting much bigger than last year.

[Chester B]

55 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

Mine is putting on some size this season.  It's only gotten three new fronds so far but they are getting much bigger than last year.

It took no damage this spring right?

[NWpalms@206]

1 hour ago, Fallen Munk said:

Mine is putting on some size this season.  It's only gotten three new fronds so far but they are getting much bigger than last year.

Where you located?

[Fallen Munk]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

It took no damage this spring right?

Nope.  Not even a bit.

[Fallen Munk]

1 hour ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Where you located?

Salem, Oregon.  Palm purchased from Raintree in 2020.  Photo after planting.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Fallen Munk

[Chester B]

25 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

Nope.  Not even a bit.

I didn't think so, glad to hear it.

[NWpalms@206]

5 hours ago, Fallen Munk said:

Salem, Oregon.  Palm purchased from Raintree in 2020.  Photo after planting.

That’s great growth for two years. It’ll be a monster In no time!

[Banana Belt]

This first picture is a Jubaea 30 years old, second picture same Jubaea 40 years old.  In some earlier post I was wrong about the ages of this Palm.  Going back and finding older pictures I realized that it took 30 years from seed for the Jubaea to begin it's trunk growing stage, but once it does look out it really takes off.  Jubaea in adultood really need space.   Looking South.     Looking North, June, 2022

[Chester B]

Sounds like Palm Daddy's Jubaea on Bowen Island survived, but it was a nice healthy younger specimen than the one on Salt Spring Island.  He was on vacation so it didn't get protected, I believe it spent a week below freezing with temps as low or near to -15C/5F.

[BeyondTheGarden]

I had to look this up, 

It seems like the health of a palm going into winter really plays a big part in how cold tolerant it is.  I know many have said that but after seeing my small Jubaea die and seeing this one die, while Palm Daddy's made it through, is pretty shocking.  I don't know this particular areas winter conditions but I know Joe's place was 1 or 2 degrees warmer than my place for their ultimate low, and I believe they even got up above freezing while I stayed below 32 for those 7 days. 

[Banana Belt]

55 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

I had to look this up, 

It seems like the health of a palm going into winter really plays a big part in how cold tolerant it is.  I know many have said that but after seeing my small Jubaea die and seeing this one die, while Palm Daddy's made it through, is pretty shocking.  I don't know this particular areas winter conditions but I know Joe's place was 1 or 2 degrees warmer than my place for their ultimate low, and I believe they even got up above freezing while I stayed below 32 for those 7 days. 

Sad to hear and see any dying Palm.  It happened to me in 1987 Brooking, Oregon with a week of temperatures in the teens where two recently planted Canary Island Palms died.  I planted the two Jubaea following summer and helped them along every winter after that, even when on occasion temperatures again got into the teens.  We don't seem to get such cold artic blasts like we did back in the last century.  I remember my grandmother who lived in Sunnyside, Oregon, (Portland) telling me that cars could drive over the Columbia River some winters in the early 1900's. 

Best to never remove any living leaves off a young plam no matter how they look, during periods of extreme stress, very cold, very hot and dry, a palm like a Jubaea need all the energy they can muster to survive.   Only if the leaf was dead would I cut it back for appearance sake, eventually the left over stem would fall away.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Banana Belt

[Collectorpalms]

1 hour ago, Jesse PNW said:

I had to look this up, 

It seems like the health of a palm going into winter really plays a big part in how cold tolerant it is.  I know many have said that but after seeing my small Jubaea die and seeing this one die, while Palm Daddy's made it through, is pretty shocking.  I don't know this particular areas winter conditions but I know Joe's place was 1 or 2 degrees warmer than my place for their ultimate low, and I believe they even got up above freezing while I stayed below 32 for those 7 days. 

Mine had a similar fate., the leaves were still mostly green, but the spear was freeze dried and never tried to come back. Phoenix Canary much hardier here.

[Trustandi]

Alrighty... I just got back from the arboretum to check their condition. 

I think there are 5-6 Jubaeas.  Most of them got winter damages, ranging from minor cosmetic damages to quite severe ones. 

I am posting the photos starting from the one with minor damage to quite severe one (collapsed brown spear) in 2 of them.  I hope those 2 will recover well.

[Chester B]

@Trustandi did you notice anything different in regards to location of each of the palms?  For example ones planted at a slightly higher elevation received less damage?

That Salt Spring Island Jubaea hasn't looked good for a long time.  It was pencil necking pretty bad and then the newly hired gardener for that complex came and butchered it, removing about half its green fronds.  Who knows if it hadn't had those fronds removed if it would've survived.  I heard a low of -8C for that location.

[Fallen Munk]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:28 PM, Chester B said:

It took no damage this spring right?

Spoke too soon.  Newest frond has signs of boron deficiency.  Likely caused by heavy leaching from all of the soaking rain we had this spring.  It's not real bad, but the leaflets on one spear are squiggly.   Lesson learned, if we have a real wet winter season, dissolve borax in water and apply a few times per winter season.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Fallen Munk

[Chester B]

Fortunately the few palms that I had take damage have all recovered.  I had 3 losses - 2 small lady palms and my last tiny Serenoa repens.  My fortunei on the other hand have never looked better.

[BeyondTheGarden]

Those up in Seattle are looking beefy!  

@Collectorpalms I've heard quite a few people say that Jubaea is the hardiest pinnate palm, but I really don't believe there's a blanket statement that is all inclusive.  I think there are too many factors to consider, and you can't just say, "Palm X is the hardiest" whatever.  Here, I believe Butia are more hardy than Jubaea.  I even had Chamaedorea microspadix that survived this winter unprotected while my small Jubaea died.   I know Phoenix canariensis has survived some incredibly low temps, provided it stayed dry. 

[Collectorpalms]

14 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Those up in Seattle are looking beefy!  

@Collectorpalms I've heard quite a few people say that Jubaea is the hardiest pinnate palm, but I really don't believe there's a blanket statement that is all inclusive.  I think there are too many factors to consider, and you can't just say, "Palm X is the hardiest" whatever.  Here, I believe Butia are more hardy than Jubaea.  I even had Chamaedorea microspadix that survived this winter unprotected while my small Jubaea died.   I know Phoenix canariensis has survived some incredibly low temps, provided it stayed dry. 

I agree, there is so much variability in survival, that zones are nearly worthless comparing 8b texas, to 8b Washington, to 8b Arizona. 8b Florida

The new pictures of the Jubaea look really good. I am just surprised they are barely growing new spears this late in the year.

Jubaea meristems are just more tender than I expected.

A lot of the survival has to do with the spring and summer temperatures along with precipitation. That one Jubaea, just rotted, It should have been trunk cut.

[Banana Belt]

Is it safe to say, older adult palms are more likely to survive lower temperature conditions than young palms of the same species?  If its different from one species to the next, what is the reason?

[Trustandi]

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

@Trustandi did you notice anything different in regards to location of each of the palms?  For example ones planted at a slightly higher elevation received less damage?

That Salt Spring Island Jubaea hasn't looked good for a long time.  It was pencil necking pretty bad and then the newly hired gardener for that complex came and butchered it, removing about half its green fronds.  Who knows if it hadn't had those fronds removed if it would've survived.  I heard a low of -8C for that location.

They were planted on the same slope. The one on the top of the slope got frost damage. I noticed the twos with the fried spears were in the middle of the slope and there were big shrubs behind them. Maybe the shrubs created the micro climate and blocked the cold to drain down the slope. Hence, they received the most damages. 

The one in the lower slope (the left one in the Google map screenshot) received the minor damage since the shrubs protected it. 

I am shocked the Jubaea in The SSI died, maybe the lack of summer heat causing trouble there. I still believe though Jubaea is tougher than butia. 

I am paranoid with my planted butias. I always try to keep their crown areas dry and covered whenever the weather forecast predicts wet snow and below freezing temperature for a few hours or more. 

 

[Chester B]

21 minutes ago, Trustandi said:

I am shocked the Jubaea in The SSI died, maybe the lack of summer heat causing trouble there. I still believe though Jubaea is tougher than butia. 

I am paranoid with my planted butias. I always try to keep their crown areas dry and covered whenever the weather forecast predicts wet snow and below freezing temperature for a few hours or more. 

I agree.  Some Jubaea survived up north, where I have heard of no surviving Butia.  That's proof enough for me.

I'll wrap the spears on my Butia if there is an ice storm forecasted, or wet snow with dropping temps.  I don't want moisture getting down deep then freezing and expanding.  I've had good luck with my two larger ones.  6 years now.

[BeyondTheGarden]

4 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

Is it safe to say, older adult palms are more likely to survive lower temperature conditions than young palms of the same species?  If its different from one species to the next, what is the reason?

Generally speaking, that's the consensus.  However, very small palms often have the advantage of being closer to the ground.  The ground radiates heat and although it doesn't make a huge difference, it's sometimes enough to count.  Also, a blanket of snow can insulate small palms from seeing the worst of the minimum ambient air temps.  If it snows 6" at 32f, but then night time temps drop to 16, your 6" palm can still be nice and "cozy" at 32f.  Snow is a great insulator.  

There was some discussion awhile back about some palm (one I'm not familiar with, doesn't grow here), when it's young it has a subterranean trunk but when it gets older and it starts trunking it actually become less hardy because the growth point is now exposed to the atmosphere.  

2 hours ago, Chester B said:

I agree.  Some Jubaea survived up north, where I have heard of no surviving Butia.  That's proof enough for me.

Since my sole in-ground Jubaea died (covered but not heated), but my 4 Butia showed zero damage (varying degrees of protection but one was totally unprotected), I'm inclined to think the opposite.  I like Jubaeas a lot but I think their hardiness is overhyped. 

[Chester B]

4 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

Since my sole in-ground Jubaea died (covered but not heated), but my 4 Butia showed zero damage (varying degrees of protection but one was totally unprotected), I'm inclined to think the opposite.  I like Jubaeas a lot but I think their hardiness is overhyped.

Well I don't think I'll be killing either anytime soon, considering the growing zone upgrade we got in the Portland area.  Had an interesting talk last week and consensus among the nurseries and and horticultural experts are that we have bumped up half a zone.  9A for the Portland area with the hotter parts of Inner Portland at 9b.  Still not a southern zone 9 but I'll take it.  Plus I found myself a new garden mentor.  Been seeing so many zone 9 plants this year at the nurseries, I guess that's the reason why.

[BeyondTheGarden]

@Chester B Through the course of the last 2 years I've been following you here and on youtube, and on average, you're about 5 degrees (f) warmer than me.  You're also a bit drier.  That little bit of temperature and moisture makes a big difference.  Hutch, Trustandi, and Markbvet also come to mind.  You guys can get away with quite a bit more than me without worrying.  

The Jubaea that @Hutch gave me started pushing new growth about a week ago (thank you again, Bryan!).  The center spear didn't move up until that point but now it's slowly chugging along.  I will protect it if the temps get down below the mid twenties.  I may even cover it to try to keep the rain out of the growth point this winter.  Although I think a Jubaea can survive here, I don't think it can do so without some help until it gets well established.  

Seattle has the benefit of being on the sound, which makes a little bit of a difference between here and there.  The minimum temps are not quite as low as my place, but I think Seattle is still a few degrees cooler than Portland.  And Portland has overall warmer summers, and you guys in Oregon dry out quicker in the spring time.  

[Chester B]

I find Seattle is on average 10f cooler than me in the warmer months. I check their weather daily. In winter the daytimes high are closer but still cooler, however the lows are similar. But when cold comes in from the north during an arctic outbreak it doesn’t always make it down here or is more muted. Those few hours further south that I am so make a difference. 
 

I would probably baby that Jubaea this year as well while it’s getting established. That was quite the gift!  I have a spot set aside for a large palm that would be perfect for a Jubaea but I have those Patrick hybrids that I need to plan for. 
 

That neighbor of mine who has the queen gave me a tour. Totally amazing. For reference he has two very thick trunking Dicksonia and a decent sized mule that he never protects. He was the curator of the International Rose Test Garden here in Portland for decades. Knows more about gardening in his pinky than I do altogether.  I’m going to soak up as much knowledge from him as I can.  

[Fallen Munk]

16 hours ago, Chester B said:

I agree.  Some Jubaea survived up north, where I have heard of no surviving Butia.  That's proof enough for me.

I'll wrap the spears on my Butia if there is an ice storm forecasted, or wet snow with dropping temps.  I don't want moisture getting down deep then freezing and expanding.  I've had good luck with my two larger ones.  6 years now.

I do nothing with my Butia or Jubaea, and they look fine.  I try to protect my CIDP as best as possible.  I had spear pull on my Patrix J X BY but it's recovering.  I also had spear pull on two J X BO.  My Patrix BY X J looks perfect and is growing like it's on steroids.  I had spear pull on a few of my trachy, including a princeps.  Lets hope for a drier winter next season.

[Chester B]

4 minutes ago, Fallen Munk said:

I do nothing with my Butia or Jubaea, and they look fine.  I try to protect my CIDP as best as possible.  I had spear pull on my Patrix J X BY but it's recovering.  I also had spear pull on two J X BO.  My Patrix BY X J looks perfect and is growing like it's on steroids.  I had spear pull on a few of my trachy, including a princeps.  Lets hope for a drier winter next season.

Spear pull for me on my two princeps - These seem to like dry conditions more than any other Trachy we can grow so makes sense.  They've since recovered.

Brahea spear pull as well, looked great after winter but in late April or May I noticed the spear starting to dry up.  It has recovered.

I haven't been brave enough to put out a BYxJ yet, I want them to get some more size first.  I do have the BYxPJS which are growing pretty quick but again I'm going to wait.

CIDP is planned for next year as well.

[Banana Belt]

The two Jubaea I have are close to 40 years old and are growing on the line between a USDA 10a at the Ocean and a 9b of the Harbor Bench a few miles south of Brookings, Oregon.  The palms are about 100 yards from the surf and do receive considerable salt mist during rough seas.  The Jubaea have a year around growing cycle in a mild wet winter dry summer Mediterranean climate.  Temperatures can on occasion get into the upper 20's for a few days, once or twice in any 10 year time.  

Right now the Jubaea are in their summer cycle where flowers are blooming and the lower leafs are turning brown and one by one dropping off clean from the trunk.  The trees are conserving water as the ground dries out, slowing down their growth and drawing water and nutrients out of the oldest leaves.  Dry season in Southern Oregon is about 6 months on average, plus or minus.  The Jubaea grow very little during this time of year.

In the late fall when the wet season begins the Jubaea stop their shedding leaves and slow down flowering and begin to grow new leaves.  As wet winter proceeds into December, January, the Jubaea accelerate their growth and into late Spring or until the next dry cycle begins.  They love mild (30 to 50) F temperatures and very high rainfall. 

Jubaea appear to prefer Mediterranean climates, or places where temperatures are moderated by large bodies of water.  In my opinion and I have no proof of this other than anecdotal observations and having lived in Oregon my whole life, that Jubaea will grow very well along the Coast even up into Washington.  There are several growing in the Coos Bay, Oregon area which is much cooler than Brookings, and they are doing well.  In Chile the Jubaea do not like hot dry areas, nor do they like cold continental areas inland, they do fine along the coast even south of the 42 parallel.  Brookings is at the 42 parallel.  Away from the coast of Oregon and Washington I believe Jubaea will have some obstacles such as colder winters and hotter dry summers, as Jubaea appear to not like extended periods of either hot and dry or freezing. 

I do believe Jubaea become hardier with age, especially with well developed trunk, although I could be wrong.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

so @Banana Belt are those your Jubaeas in the photos then? 

[Banana Belt]

13 minutes ago, Jesse PNW said:

so @Banana Belt are those your Jubaeas in the photos then? 

Yes, those are my only Jubaea that I planted in early 80's as seeds and later 80's put the little palms in the ground.

I just watched this video about a Guy in Northern California.  Crazy video, watch it and tell me what you think.   If it is true, then in my opinion Jubaea need water to grow.