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BUTIA X JUBAEA X QUEEN in the Pacific Northwest

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NWpalms@206
27 minutes ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Was just referring to this part:
All were successfully self or sibling pollinated, which was almost completely unsuccessful on their (JXB)XB mother, where only outcrosses were possible.
not sure i completely understand that statement either. But not Too worried about that part my brain can only take so much. 

That’s how I’m understanding it. It was not self pollinating until f3. 

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MarkbVet
1 hour ago, Swolte said:

I tend to lean towards Rich too given he's doing the cross.  Here's a similar quote from him I plucked from facebook somewhere:

"Einar Richard Lindberg
The cross is Jubutia F3 X Syagrus romanzoffiana. Yes I did the cross. This hybrid has been produced for less than 10 years. Yes Tim Hopper had a F3 and most likely did hybrids from it. That plant is no longer in existence. Two of us are currently doing this hybrid."

There's a reports that they can take 14F for long durations. When I got it I took statements of its hardiness (Supermule... com'on!) with a big grain of salt but I have to admit I am impressed thus far! 

For what it's worth, Wanderlust in Seattle claims "reliably hardy to 15F", which hopefully means longer than 30 minutes at 15F.  

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MarkbVet

One thing Merrill notes, which is worth remembering re: the supermules:  if the Jubaea was the seed donor for the original hybrid, and the only Butia crosses since then have all been pollen donors, then the genetic influence of the Jubaea may remain greater than one would think.  There are attributes that only the female plant can contribute, and all the Butias (and Syagrus) used have been male donors (pollen).  That leaves the Jubaea as the only female donor, through all the generations out to F4.   That could make a difference in terms of manifestation of Jubaea traits:  Merrill noted that even F3 plants looked 'surprisingly Jubaea like" prior to the final Syagrus cross.   Hopefully this means good hardiness traits from the Jubaea as well.   

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Love them palms
43 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

For what it's worth, Wanderlust in Seattle claims "reliably hardy to 15F", which hopefully means longer than 30 minutes at 15F.  

my Jubutia x syagrus schizophylla is almost 5g  but I purchased it from @matthedlund and put it in the ground this winter. when the artic blast came our way I covered it with 1 layer of frost cloth. temps went down to 12F for at least an hour and temps lasted below freezing for a week. thinking it was going to be a crispy dead plant I pulled the cover off and it was still tickin. Pic below. but I first learned of this hybrid through Richard and I don't know if Matt got them through Richard but yes they can handle the cold. Mukilteo wa Z8B 

5435.jpeg

Edited by Love them palms
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MarkbVet
1 minute ago, Love them palms said:

my Jubutia x syagrus schizophylla is almost 5g  but I purchased it from @matthedlund and put it in the ground this winter. when the artic blast came our way I covered it with 1 layer of frost cloth. temps went down to 12F for at least an hour and temps lasted below freezing for a week. thinking it was going to be a crispy dead plant I pulled the cover off and it was still tickin. Pic below. but I first learned of this hybrid through Richard and I don't know if Matt got them through Richard but yes they can handle the cold

5435.jpeg

Matt says that they (Wanderlust, Matt's nursery)  get their supermules from same source as Moutrie,  I'm assuming now that it's Rich.  Hooray for your baby palm!  Thx for sharing!  love to hear success stories; I've got one on the way from Matt/Wanderlust too.  

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MarkbVet
2 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

Matt says that they (Wanderlust, Matt's nursery)  get their supermules from same source as Moutrie,  I'm assuming now that it's Rich.  Hooray for your baby palm!  Thx for sharing!  love to hear success stories; I've got one on the way from Matt/Wanderlust too.  

You've got some cajones grandes planting that sucker in winter!   Tippin' my hat to ya. 

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Love them palms
40 minutes ago, MarkbVet said:

You've got some cajones grandes planting that sucker in winter!   Tippin' my hat to ya. 

nope sorry it wasn't during winter. meant to say this winter when the artic blast came. I actually planted it during the summer.

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Scott W
7 hours ago, Love them palms said:

my Jubutia x syagrus schizophylla is almost 5g  but I purchased it from @matthedlund and put it in the ground this winter.  I first learned of this hybrid through Richard and I don't know if Matt got them through Richard 

Yes, Rich did this cross.  Frank only uses regular queen for the super mules on his tree.

@MarkbVet yeah, Moultrie is pretty much a one man operation, Frank, and he only has one F3 for production.  Rich uses his tree to supplement what Frank produces.

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MarkbVet
On 1/22/2022 at 7:48 PM, MarkbVet said:

One thing Merrill notes, which is worth remembering re: the supermules:  if the Jubaea was the seed donor for the original hybrid, and the only Butia crosses since then have all been pollen donors, then the genetic influence of the Jubaea may remain greater than one would think.  There are attributes that only the female plant can contribute, and all the Butias (and Syagrus) used have been male donors (pollen).  That leaves the Jubaea as the only female donor, through all the generations out to F4.   That could make a difference in terms of manifestation of Jubaea traits:  Merrill noted that even F3 plants looked 'surprisingly Jubaea like" prior to the final Syagrus cross.   Hopefully this means good hardiness traits from the Jubaea as well.   

To clarify this a bit more (for anyone actually interested lol),  the final cross between the (JXB)xBXB  X Syagrus doesn't mean that Syagrus contributed 50% of the DNA to the final hybrid plant.  Syagrus actually contributes less than 50% of the total DNA inherited by the supermule.  This is true of any pollen donor. The reason is that cellular organelles (tiny cell structures such as mitochondria, plasmids) contain their own DNA also.  This DNA is separate from the 'regular' DNA we talk about being shared 50:50 when male/female plant breeding happens.  The DNA from organelles has been shown to contribute to traits such as plant hardiness.   In most cases, nearly all the organelle DNA is inherited from the maternal plant (the seed donor, not the pollen donor).  In the supermules, the primary source of the organelle DNA is the original Jubaea, even after 4 generations.  All other plant sources (Butia, Syagrus) were pollen donors and therefore didn't contribute much organelle DNA.   Each hybrid offspring inherited its organelle DNA from the original Jubaea. 

Of course, the regular DNA from pollen and seed donors still matters a lot, and obviously influences many traits, including phenotype (physical appearance) and hardiness.  But add in the DNA from cell organelles, and the mother plant contributes more than 50% of the DNA that the offspring inherits,  therefore likely contributes a larger influence on the cold hardiness than the male pollen donor.   The final hybrid contains less than 50% Syagrus DNA, and over 50% DNA from the JxB hybrids that preceded the final supermule cross.  

One can hope that this means Jubaea might have as large an influence (or larger) than Syagrus, when it comes to the supermule hardiness.  However, this is a very simple summary of complex genetic factors at work, and only time will tell how hardy the supermules prove to be (and how much variation there is between different supermule plants).  How much does the regular DNA from the Syagrus pollen influence the offspring's hardiness, compared to the Jubaea's regular DNA combined with its additional organelle DNA?   We'll find out, eventually. 

Edited by MarkbVet
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NWpalms@206

Also am curious how Patrick’s version (if you will) of the super mule,  B/J F1 x Q  compares to not only the J/B F3 x Q but the standard mule. I’ll be finding out as they all grow together. Have 2 of each. A bigger B/JxQ came today. Original post is about the B/JxQ from I believe MPOM. And it looked to be handling the cold fine. 

05BC5236-772E-4EA7-B2A3-B89108F92620.jpeg

10303AEA-5BE5-4A1B-9B95-641EED9F7608.jpeg

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Chester B

@MarkbVet so eloquently said. Mitochondrial DNA’s influence is an interesting topic all on its own. I think the common misperception is that genetic material is shared in discrete amounts and evenly split between the donors (parents), whereas in actuality there can be quite a bit variability. 
 

Back on topic my hybrids are scheduled to arrive Thursday. I’ll be sure to post photos. 
 

 

Edited by Chester B
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MarkbVet
9 minutes ago, Chester B said:

@MarkbVet so eloquently said. Mitochondrial DNA’s influence is an interesting topic all on its own. I think the common misperception is that genetic material is shared in discrete amounts and evenly split between the donors (parents), whereas in actuality there can be quite a bit variability. 
 

Back on topic my hybrids are scheduled to arrive Thursday. I’ll be sure to post photos. 
 

 

Please do!   Got a 2 gallon coming, but not for awhile.  

 

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NWpalms@206
11 hours ago, Chester B said:

Back on topic my hybrids are scheduled to arrive Thursday. I’ll be sure to post photos

Makes my day when palms show up!  what you get? 

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Chester B

YxJ

BxPJS

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NWpalms@206
1 hour ago, Chester B said:

YxJ

BxPJS

Good choices! 

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Dartolution

While I'm not in the PNW I do have a BxJxS or JxBxS (tag had both listed) that was originally obtained from MPOM and was reported to come from Patric about 5 or 6 years ago. 

Its gone down 19F with no issue even in a pot on the patio. Just needs a crap-load of fertilizer and extra potassium to be happy. 

Squat overall, and wider than it is tall, very stiff leaflets with tiny hooks on the ends. No apparent armament or very little unlike Butia. Not quite a quickly growing as my Mule. IMG_9555.thumb.JPG.63e7797ecac510efa11c0b9f3d721828.JPG

IMG_9428.thumb.JPG.a82dd665a595f7836a02ae6107253a8b.JPG

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Chester B

And for the record, he responded to my emails quickly and everything was easy.  Palms arrived quickly, well packed and in good condition.

Goes by Patrix with an X which makes perfect sense if you think about it.

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NWpalms@206
1 hour ago, Dartolution said:

While I'm not in the PNW I do have a BxJxS or JxBxS (tag had both listed) that was originally obtained from MPOM and was reported to come from Patric about 5 or 6 years ago. 

Its gone down 19F with no issue even in a pot on the patio. Just needs a crap-load of fertilizer and extra potassium to be happy. 

Squat overall, and wider than it is tall, very stiff leaflets with tiny hooks on the ends. No apparent armament or very little unlike Butia. Not quite a quickly growing as my Mule. IMG_9555.thumb.JPG.63e7797ecac510efa11c0b9f3d721828.JPG

IMG_9428.thumb.JPG.a82dd665a595f7836a02ae6107253a8b.JPG

Very nice, if sourced from Patrick (he does supply MPOM, his jxQ as well) I’d tend to say B/JxQ, I just received one a bit smaller from him close to same age. But he may have had J/BxQ also then just not now. You say extra potassium… does that help with the spotting that the B/JxQ has seemed to show for some?

Edited by NWpalms@206

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MarkbVet

@DartolutionI've got a supermule from Wanderlust on the way,  guess it's been determined now to be (JxB) xB xB xQ  so may behave differently than a BxJ XQ, but i'm keeping my plants (all of 'em) in pots for up to 5 years before I move myself and my plants, and put em in the ground for good.  So I'm very curious what you're doing to keep your plants healthy (and growing) while potted for long term.  When you say "lots of fertilizer', what are u using (and how often?).  Just a potassium rich palm fertilizer, or specifically adding potassium on the side? (and how much?).  Penny for your wisdom...   As a side note,  I've got a C. humilis that I purchased a few months ago, already a bit yellow-green, and it's gotten more yellowish.  I used time-release pelleted palm fertilizer in the pot a few weeks ago, but little improvement so far. Of course, being winter, I'm watering conservatively, which may reduce how much fertilizer is actually getting leached into the soil.   Thanks for any advice you (or others) may have!   

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MarkbVet
6 hours ago, Chester B said:

And for the record, he responded to my emails quickly and everything was easy.  Palms arrived quickly, well packed and in good condition.

Goes by Patrix with an X which makes perfect sense if you think about it.

He does a good job packing his plants.  Signs his emails "Patrix" but his email heading says "Patrick " lol.    I got his B. yatay X Jubaea also, and am tempted by the BxPBS as well.  So....  I approve of your choices, good sir!  I want him to offer JxQ again!

Edited by MarkbVet

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RJ
On 1/23/2022 at 6:58 AM, Scott W said:

Yes, Rich did this cross.  Frank only uses regular queen for the super mules on his tree.

@MarkbVet yeah, Moultrie is pretty much a one man operation, Frank, and he only has one F3 for production.  Rich uses his tree to supplement what Frank produces.

I was at his place a few years ago, he told me he is growing some silver queens. Not sure when they will be ready though.

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NWpalms@206
39 minutes ago, RJ said:

I was at his place a few years ago, he told me he is growing some silver queens. Not sure when they will be ready though.

That sounds promising! 

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Scott W
42 minutes ago, RJ said:

I was at his place a few years ago, he told me he is growing some silver queens. Not sure when they will be ready though.

I have three in the ground now, contemplating putting my last two in as well.  Largest one is growing nicely and hope it's producing pollen in the next few years.

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Chester B
8 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

He does a good job packing his plants.  Signs his emails "Patrix" but his email heading says "Patrick " lol.    I got his B. yatay X Jubaea also, and am tempted by the BxPBS as well.  So....  I approve of your choices, good sir!  I want him to offer JxQ again!

If I remember correctly the JXS was $100, so a little more pricey.

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NWpalms@206
1 hour ago, Chester B said:

If I remember correctly the JXS was $100, so a little more pricey.

100 still aint bad, id pay more than that! just hoping I get a chance at one someday

 

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Dartolution
22 hours ago, NWpalms@206 said:

Very nice, if sourced from Patrick (he does supply MPOM, his jxQ as well) I’d tend to say B/JxQ, I just received one a bit smaller from him close to same age. But he may have had J/BxQ also then just not now. You say extra potassium… does that help with the spotting that the B/JxQ has seemed to show for some?

@NWpalms@206 It was technically sold as a BxJxS, but like I said - the tag it came with had both on it with JxBxQ written on the back and faded. With the hooks, it does seem like Jubaea would be the parent plant, but maybe Im wrong. 

I use langbeinite in between months of using PalmGain. It has seemed to greatly reduce the spotting leaflets. 

 

17 hours ago, MarkbVet said:

@DartolutionI've got a supermule from Wanderlust on the way,  guess it's been determined now to be (JxB) xB xB xQ  so may behave differently than a BxJ XQ, but i'm keeping my plants (all of 'em) in pots for up to 5 years before I move myself and my plants, and put em in the ground for good.  So I'm very curious what you're doing to keep your plants healthy (and growing) while potted for long term.  When you say "lots of fertilizer', what are u using (and how often?).  Just a potassium rich palm fertilizer, or specifically adding potassium on the side? (and how much?).  Penny for your wisdom...   As a side note,  I've got a C. humilis that I purchased a few months ago, already a bit yellow-green, and it's gotten more yellowish.  I used time-release pelleted palm fertilizer in the pot a few weeks ago, but little improvement so far. Of course, being winter, I'm watering conservatively, which may reduce how much fertilizer is actually getting leached into the soil.   Thanks for any advice you (or others) may have!   

@MarkbVet Hey Mark, 

Same here, I have multiple potted palms and seedling for a future property with a much much larger backyard (mine is stupid tiny). 

I fertilize with Palmgain every other month from mid March - mid September. In between months I apply langbeinite on the BxJxS and my Silver Queen. 

Other than that, they are on drip irrigation with 2-3 micro emitters in each pot that runs when needed (when its not monsoon season). haha. 

I have 3 Chammies planted in the yard. One is getting removed in a couple of months. I planted it far too close to my sabal blackburniana and at the rate the sabal is growing its going to end up overtaking the chammie quickly. I've never had an issue with a chammie going yellow. My largest I had in a pot for several years while renting, and planted it 3 years ago. Even in a pot I did not have a problem. What growing media are you using? I just used straight JungleGrowth potting mix for the Chamaerops when I had it potted. With all my other potted palms, I use either JungleGrowth or Sta-Green potting mix. Nothing special. Might add a little more perlite, might not... I really haven't had an issue. 

Yellow in general can mean a few things - Too much water, not enough water, root rot or root problems, too little iron, or too little nitrogen to name a few. Sometimes you have to do a process of elimination, change a variable and monitor to see a response. Don't change too many at once. You won't know what the problem was, and the stress is not good for the palm. 

Hope that helps! 

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MarkbVet
2 hours ago, Dartolution said:

@NWpalms@206 It was technically sold as a BxJxS, but like I said - the tag it came with had both on it with JxBxQ written on the back and faded. With the hooks, it does seem like Jubaea would be the parent plant, but maybe Im wrong. 

I use langbeinite in between months of using PalmGain. It has seemed to greatly reduce the spotting leaflets. 

 

@MarkbVet Hey Mark, 

Same here, I have multiple potted palms and seedling for a future property with a much much larger backyard (mine is stupid tiny). 

I fertilize with Palmgain every other month from mid March - mid September. In between months I apply langbeinite on the BxJxS and my Silver Queen. 

Other than that, they are on drip irrigation with 2-3 micro emitters in each pot that runs when needed (when its not monsoon season). haha. 

I have 3 Chammies planted in the yard. One is getting removed in a couple of months. I planted it far too close to my sabal blackburniana and at the rate the sabal is growing its going to end up overtaking the chammie quickly. I've never had an issue with a chammie going yellow. My largest I had in a pot for several years while renting, and planted it 3 years ago. Even in a pot I did not have a problem. What growing media are you using? I just used straight JungleGrowth potting mix for the Chamaerops when I had it potted. With all my other potted palms, I use either JungleGrowth or Sta-Green potting mix. Nothing special. Might add a little more perlite, might not... I really haven't had an issue. 

Yellow in general can mean a few things - Too much water, not enough water, root rot or root problems, too little iron, or too little nitrogen to name a few. Sometimes you have to do a process of elimination, change a variable and monitor to see a response. Don't change too many at once. You won't know what the problem was, and the stress is not good for the palm. 

Hope that helps! 

Thanks!  Yes changing one thing at at a time makes the most sense.  I don't know the soil type,  the existing medium came in the pot from the nursery, it's loose and well draining, that's all i can say.   Will move it to larger pot soon, which may also help.   May try one dose PalmGain too.   Hopefully it will improve over time.   Good luck with your plants,  exciting to eventually move em into a big yard (mine will be 1.2 acres, though 1/2 will remain as forest I think).   Mark

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Chester B

@MarkbVetI usually plant my palms from that nursery in the ground right away.  I do have two still in pots plus a Finger lime and they all needed some TLC. I moved them all up into a larger pot and what I discovered was it was mostly roots and very little old dry soil. I was watering daily and the plants still seemed thirsty. As soon as I stepped them up with some fresh soil, the water was retained by the new soil.  They improved by greening up, pushing new growth and in the case of the finger lime it produced new leaves ten fold as well as producing fruit. I bet your palm has very little soil, it’s probably roots in a plastic pot. 

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