Zone 3b

[Philly J]

ok so not this summer, but next summer I am going to be preparing both a bulgarian Trachy and R.Hystrix.  Extensively researching, I found a testimony from someone in North Dakota (zone 4 with sometimes 3b weather) who successfully winters his R.Hystrix, albeit with many many steps and layers of protection for both the trunk and the surrounding ground (which freezes here in Saskatchewan very very deep).  His palm is now 6 years old and had some good warmer winters to harden itself, which was lucky for him.  We rarely see that winter on the warmer side up here in 3b.

This may be completely futile, but I wanted the challenge, which is why i will only be doing one of each, and not when they are so young I want them a little older before they go into the frozen earth LOL

[climate change virginia]

I wish you luck try using the palm condo method. here is a link credit: james palms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TENYs30T5Qw

[Philly J]

i love james and @Rickybobby they are my Canadian brothers.  However,  I am 3 zones colder than them unfortunately (pretty sure southern ontario is zone 6).  I know James has to condo his, but his deep underground earth doesnt freeze like mine, which adds an extra layer of difficulty.  How can I keep the deep ground around my palm from freezing?

[climate change virginia]

2 hours ago, Philly J said:

i love james and @Rickybobby they are my Canadian brothers.  However,  I am 3 zones colder than them unfortunately (pretty sure southern ontario is zone 6).  I know James has to condo his, but his deep underground earth doesnt freeze like mine, which adds an extra layer of difficulty.  How can I keep the deep ground around my palm from freezing?

in one of james palms videos he said that frost just goes straight down and not in all different directions and what not so if you keep the box warm enough the needle should survive and in james palms videos he grows palms that live 3 zones warmer than his so a needle is a zone 6 palm and you are in 3b so I think there is a chance of survival. and since you get tons of snow it should also insulate. but if you get a power outage your palm is done for. the palm should have a separate generator for backup.

Edited March 22, 2021 by climate change virginia

[Philly J]

so the ground around my palm might not freeze if everything above is insulated?  That changes the whole game for me.  I thought my ground in zone 3b would be so frozen that even if i insulate and warm the plant itself, the ground would kill the roots regardless.

Game changer!! 

[Jimhardy]

I don't think that would be true in that kind of cold with the ground

freezing so far down....if you don't mind doing some digging you could try

digging a grave...oops,I mean box with 2" foam insulation( like you can buy at the hardware store)

on all 4 sides...if successful you could make a bigger box down the road.....maybe even on the

bottom with some holes made in it for drainage....and then mulch, mulch,mulch the soil around the palm.

If you are successful then I will try the same with a coconut palm here in Iowa...

Edited March 22, 2021 by Jimhardy

[PalmatierMeg]

Gotta admire your dedication. I can't fathom zone 3b

[Chester B]

23 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Gotta admire your dedication. I can't fathom zone 3b

I spent 60 days in Brandon, Manitoba during winter which I checked and is zone 3B.  You have no idea what it is actually like until you experience it.  I think the best option for the palms is having a heated green house over them.

[Philly J]

The success of this whole thing depends on the ground around these two palms being kept thawed.  I have no doubt that I could easily protect the plant itself, but I don’t know how to control the temperature of the roots.  And I am guessing that I would lose the Trachycarpus Bulgaria before the Rhapidophyllum.  
 

This attempt is still two summers away.  I will document extensively, including all costs associated with the electricity for the electric blanket (to keep ground thawed) as well as the 24/7 running of Christmas lights.  I believe that I will need both running all the time from end of October until late March when we get our ground thaw.

[Philly J]

3 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

I don't think that would be true in that kind of cold with the ground

freezing so far down....if you don't mind doing some digging you could try

digging a grave...oops,I mean box with 2" foam insulation( like you can buy at the hardware store)

on all 4 sides...if successful you could make a bigger box down the road.....maybe even on the

bottom with some holes made in it for drainage....and then mulch, mulch,mulch the soil around the palm.

If you are successful then I will try the same with a coconut palm here in Iowa...

Oh man to allow for root growth I would need a massive hole or grave you are right! but that is definitely an idea.  Almost like a raised bed, but buried.... lol 

Not sure if it would defeat the purpose though haha but it would give it an extra chance at survival if I only had to heat the plant and not the ground or roots.

[Jimhardy]

To bad there isn't some device that you could just

dig a deep slot with and put the insulation right in...I did

notice that my 20' long 8' wide hoop house kept soil temps around 40ish(F)

at least so increasing the area around the plants that stays warmer could be

a good way to moderate the surrounding soil temps, even if its just with a foot of mulch.

[Philly J]

17 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

To bad there isn't some device that you could just

dig a deep slot with and put the insulation right in...I did

notice that my 20' long 8' wide hoop house kept soil temps around 40ish(F)

at least so increasing the area around the plants that stays warmer could be

a good way to moderate the surrounding soil temps, even if its just with a foot of mulch.

Absolutely will do the extra mulch and not rely on the ground, awesome tip thanks.  Now that I’m thinking about it, after top soil all I have is clay.  Can these two palms even push through that in the summer as they hopefully continue to live?

[Chad king NC]

If it was me I think I would look into planting a heat cable around the root zone.  Then be prepared for whatever it takes to keep the enclosure at or above freezing.

[Philly J]

Heat cable!! Thank you.

[Jimhardy]

You still need an area thats insulated for heat cables to work...

the kind of cold in these areas is extremely penetrating cold.

[climate change virginia]

maybe you should do a palm condo then pop a greenhouse over that

[floridaPalmMan]

Interesting concept.

So in the winter, heat conducts upwards toward the surface.

You can probably take advantage of this thermal energy by trapping it with some radiant barrier foil. It reflects 90%+ of thermal energy.

So if you built the coffin and lined the inside (all 4 sides, top but leave the bottom open to allow in heat escaping from the earth) with a radiant barrier (thermal blankets are super cheap, but you can get double sided radiant barriers with bubble wrap insulation)

Radiant barriers need to have 1 side open to air at least 0.75"-2".

I think you could create some kind of buriable wooden frame with this structure and layers. This will make no sense viewing on a mobile device.

 

||-----------------------radiant barrier---------------------------------------------- small skylight for sunlight -------------------------------radiant barrier----------------------------------||

||                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              ||

|| Styrofoam insulation board | foil radiant barrier | 1" air gap | heat cables | soil | palm tree roots | soil | heat cables | 1" air gap | foil radiant barrier | foam insulation board ||

||-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OPEN BOTTOM------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------||

||---------------------------------------^^^ heat ^^^------------------------------------------------ Earth -----------------------------------------^^^ heat ^^^-----------------------------------||

 

If this makes 0 sense I'd understand... it makes sense in my head... I'll illustrate it but don't have time right now.

Edited March 26, 2021 by floridaPalmMan

[floridaPalmMan]

2 hours ago, floridaPalmMan said:

If this makes 0 sense I'd understand... it makes sense in my head... I'll illustrate it but don't have time right now.

Found the time. Does the illustration make sense?

[Rickybobby]

With the winters we’re having here in southern Ontario. Might as well not even cover the palms up! My dad lives in a cold zone 7 along Lake Ontario  they do exist here