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Phoenix canariensis in 7B/8A, worth trying or not?


MSX

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Hello Palmtalkers! I'm in 7b/8a hardiness zone with BSk bordering BWk climate (dry cold winters, dry hot summers). As I mentioned in my earlier posts on this forum we have Washingtonia palms succesfully introduced & growing here (both filiferas and robustas, protected & unprotected), Chamaeropses, Trachies, of course. I haven't seen any Canary Phoenix planted outside here so far and most of the CIDPs usually sold in indoor plants departements. I'd like to add a Phoenix palm on my home property but as the title says, I wonder if planting a Canary Phoenix in the ground outside in my zone is actually a good idea or not?

And another question to our expert community - today I took some pictures of different young Phoenix palms of different age that sold as Canary Island Date Palm, could you please confirm that all of them are really Canary ones, not Dactylifera. Also when buying a Phoenix palm for zone pushing, is it better to get smaller ones (for easier adaptation maybe) or larger ones (last pics)? Thanks

baby size

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average size, already trunking & more fronds

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larger size, visible trunk, dense foliage

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Edited by MSX
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What’s your all time record low temperature for your location? Also, what is the lowest you have experienced in the past 5 years as well...? 
 

Most CIDP’s will burn at -6C (20F) and then be defoliated by -8C (17F). It’s rare for big, mature specimens to survive -10C (14F), especially if there is snow as well. There are some exceptions though. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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They are grown here in warm 8a/8b zones(high elevation, desert, high solar radiation).  The plant itself is very hardy to cold, but the leaves are much less hardy.  It can and will defoliate below 20f much like robustas.  It takes more than 1 growing season to recover after defoliation.  A robusta can survive yearly defoliation, but a CIDP will go into decline.  

Basically, if you grow robustas without annual defoliation or protection,  odds are you may be able to grow CIDP .

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

What’s your all time record low temperature for your location? Also, what is the lowest you have experienced in the past 5 years as well...? 
 

Most CIDP’s will burn at -6C (20F) and then be defoliated by -8C (17F). It’s rare for big, mature specimens to survive -10C (14F), especially if there is snow as well. There are some exceptions though. 

Absolute minimum is -28C (-18F) (1930), the lowest temperature in the past 5 yrs is -13C (7F) (2021). The closest climate comparision is Page, northern Arizona. Does it mean that even an active winter protection with the Christmas lights or Duralight for the coldest nights won't be much help to CIDP?

page.jpg

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4 minutes ago, MSX said:

Absolute minimum is -28C (-18F) (1930), the lowest temperature in the past 5 yrs is -13C (7F) (2021). The closest climate comparision is Page, northern Arizona. Does it mean that even an active winter protection with the Christmas lights or Duralight for the coldest nights won't be much help to CIDP?

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There’s not a chance of you getting CIDP’s through back to back winters there by the sounds of things. A record low of -28C is crazy cold and then you say that you had -13C this winter. 
 

Even if you do protect it the first few years, it will eventually get to a size that you can no longer protect it, then you will lose it. I doubt you will want to put yourself through all that effort during the early years just for it to end in heartbreak. 
 

CIDP’s aren’t fully hardy for me here inland at 51N in the rural countryside, but the coldest temperature I have ever seen is -11C here. Yet I will have a ‘killing freeze’ every 4-5 years here that will wipe out most CIDP’s. 
 

I doubt there’s any Robusta’s in your area either. I’m guessing they’re all Filifera or hybrids. Are they all protected, or are some of them left to fend for themselves and survive those temperatures unprotected? 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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27 minutes ago, jwitt said:

They are grown here in warm 8a/8b zones(high elevation, desert, high solar radiation).  The plant itself is very hardy to cold, but the leaves are much less hardy.  It can and will defoliate below 20f much like robustas.  It takes more than 1 growing season to recover after defoliation.  A robusta can survive yearly defoliation, but a CIDP will go into decline.  

Basically, if you grow robustas without annual defoliation or protection,  odds are you may be able to grow CIDP .

Jim, thank you! All our robustas defoliate each year unless protected, filiferas usually don't. Here is a picture I took today, the filifera feels great, while robusta looks almost dead, they both overwintered unprotected (we had 7F for one day this winter), another two pictures of two established unprotected robustas that look the same dead.

 

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Edited by MSX
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36 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:


There’s not a chance of you getting CIDP’s through back to back winters there by the sounds of things. A record low of -28C is crazy cold and then you say that you had -13C this winter. 
 

Even if you do protect it the first few years, it will eventually get to a size that you can no longer protect it, then you will lose it. I doubt you will want to put yourself through all that effort during the early years just for it to end in heartbreak. 
 

CIDP’s aren’t fully hardy for me here inland at 51N in the rural countryside, but the coldest temperature I have ever seen is -11C here. Yet I will have a ‘killing freeze’ every 4-5 years here that will wipe out most CIDP’s. 
 

I doubt there’s any Robusta’s in your area either. I’m guessing they’re all Filifera or hybrids. Are they all protected, or are some of them left to fend for themselves and survive those temperatures unprotected? 

A record low is taken from the weather history database, I'm 35 and I don't actually remember we had any lower than -15C or so, yeah it happens every 4-5-7 years, while the usual winter temperature is around -5 at nights and around 0 during the day. We do have Robustas, very few, but the problem usually nobody bothers to protect washingtonias here even the with the simplest passive protection, so yes they mainly left to fend for themselves, I will take pictures of the robustas from the pictures I posted above with fronds if they resurrect.

Ben, thank you for your comment, it might be better to invest time and efforts in to more hardy and rewarding genuses.

Edited by MSX
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try a Medjool they have a better chance of surviving dry cold they survived -11F in New Mexico

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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So cool to have an Uzbek member! I am interested in that part of the world. If you haven't already, try a Nanorrhops ritchiana, Butia sp. and Sabal uresana.

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3 hours ago, MSX said:

A record low is taken from the weather history database, I'm 35 and I don't actually remember we had any lower than -15C or so, yeah it happens every 4-5-7 years, while the usual winter temperature is around -5 at nights and around 0 during the day. We do have Robustas, very few, but the problem usually nobody bothers to protect washingtonias here even the with the simplest passive protection, so yes they mainly left to fend for themselves, I will take pictures of the robustas from the pictures I posted above with fronds if they resurrect.

Ben, thank you for your comment, it might be better to invest time and efforts in to more hardy and rewarding genuses.

When you say the temperature is "0C during the day"... do you mean that you have a couple of weeks in mid-winter where the daytime temperature does not rise above freezing? If so, that is going to be as much of a problem as the nighttime low temps. CIDP's and most other palms will not tolerate being below 0C for any more than 3 - 4 consecutive days/nights at the very most. If the temperature does not rise above 0C for 2-3 weeks in January, that will certainly kill a CIDP.  That combined with the overnight lows of -5C to -10C. However, since your location has also experienced -28C in the past, you could in theory get that level of cold again during any given winter. The folks in Texas will tell you that.

Those washies are a bit of a concern as well and don't look good. They have totally defoliated and have no green spears pushing through, despite the fact we are nearly in April now. I don't want to sound negative, but I think they are probably dead. Please do keep an eye on them and post an update in a few weeks/months. Hopefully they pull through, but it doesn't look good. I have never seen a Washingtonia look totally defoliated like that and I am at 51N. Judging by the trunk as well, I suspect they are probably Filibusta hybrids, which most washies are these days. I don't understand how the Robusta's/hybrids are totally defoliated though, yet the FIlifera looks totally undamaged. That one must have been protected, surely?

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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2 hours ago, climate change virginia said:

try a Medjool they have a better chance of surviving dry cold they survived -11F in New Mexico

I have heard of Dacty's surviving -5F in NM, but not -11F. If one did survive a low of -11F, it was a rare exception. That degree of cold would kill at least 95% of mature Dacty's, but you may get the odd survivor. Individual hardiness and all. I guess there will be a few freaks of nature out there.

The Dacty that I know survived -5F is located in Las Cruces, New Mexico where they average a high of 15C (59F) in January. The OP's location on the other hand has an average high of just 4C (40F) in January, which is a massive difference. Especially when it comes to daytime warmup following a bad nighttime radiation freeze.

Medjool is definitely a hardy variety, but I don't think they will stand a chance in his location. His average low temperature in January is -3C (26F) and it has gone down to -28C (-18F) before there. Plus the days in mid-winter are nowhere near as warm as NM or El Paso, for instance. 

I could be wrong, but I doubt there are any Dacty's or CIDP planted outdoors in Uzbekistan. The OP would have to keep them in pots and bring them under cover each winter. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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You will need a climate similar to El, Paso Texas zone 8a. Even then you would benefit from being in the city center, and not rural area. You would want to plant the biggest canary island palm that you can find and protect it every year including leaves so that it is not set back. You will want to keep the leaves above -6C to prevent from freezing.

Then a trunk of 2m or more, they may survive a temperature of -15C maybe once, but they will have a trunk that will have a lot of die back that will weaken them for further cold.

Starting with a smaller palm, wont make it adapt. If you have prolonged freezes 2-3 days in a row below freezing, then a CIDP is going to be more hardy than a thinner date palm due to it's mass.

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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I just pruned his CIDP palm all the way back for a friend and it is pushing new growth after 4F/-15.5C. This was an extreme event. I ended up with only about over meter of trunk. With leaves it had been about 2.5 meters tall prior to Feb 2021. With adequate water by September it will be maybe over half of its crown returned, but takes two good season to look full.

070CDA79-778F-45E4-BEE5-7F546AABE5EA.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Current Texas Gardening Zone 9a, Mean (1999-2024): 22F Low/104F High. Yearly Precipitation 39.17 inches.

Extremes: Low Min 4F 2021, 13.8F 2024. High Max 112F 2011/2023, Precipitation Max 58 inches 2015, Lowest 19 Inches 2011.

Weather Station: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KTXCOLLE465

Ryan (Paleoclimatologist Since 4 billion Years ago, Meteorologist/Earth Scientist/Physicist Since 1995, Savy Horticulturist Since Birth.)

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@Collectorpalms There’s a huge difference though between your average high temperature at College Station in January (60F) and his average high temperature in Namangan in January (40F). Putting the ultimate low temperature aside, there’s a difference of 20F (10C) on average for daytime highs, so while a CIDP may come back from a freak 5F low where you are, it may not be the same for him.
 

The daytime warmup is nowhere near the same in his location. His average January low is 26F as well, compared to 41F in College Station. When you guys have a freak cold snap and say a 5F or 10F low, it is usually followed by 70F highs and 50F lows a week later. That is why the CIDP’s in your part of Texas may pull through. The same reason they may survive in El Paso or parts of NM. 

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Dry-summer Oceanic climate (9a)

Average annual precipitation - 18.7 inches : Average annual sunshine hours - 1725

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18 hours ago, climate change virginia said:

try a Medjool they have a better chance of surviving dry cold they survived -11F in New Mexico

Thanks for your suggestion! I think the only way to be sure that your phoenix date palm is exactly the cultivated variety you want is to go to a local supermarket, buy a pack of dates sold as Medjool and to start it from seed. Interesting suggestion, I should check if they sell this variety of dates here.

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18 hours ago, Teegurr said:

So cool to have an Uzbek member! I am interested in that part of the world. If you haven't already, try a Nanorrhops ritchiana, Butia sp. and Sabal uresana.

Thanks a lot, Nathan! Interesting species, unfortunately they are not sold here, I think the only way to get them is to order their seeds from the US, or Europe. I'm newbie with palms growing and planting my first palms in the ground this year, so starting new palms from seeds will be next future steps in this new hobby of mine! 

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16 hours ago, Axel Amsterdam said:

Did the fronds of the small filifera survive 7F?

I first spotted them in february and they were not protected, our february is still quite chilly. They grow near a gov building, so to certainly answer your question I will ask a watchman, usually they know everything what's happening around their objects. 

Edited by MSX
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23 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I doubt there’s any Robusta’s in your area either. I’m guessing they’re all Filifera or hybrids.  

Ben,  I got one more Washy today and it looks totally different to my earlier identified W. filiferas. They are same sized 7cm (3") trunk base diameters & about 20cm (8") trunk height. Very agressive look, differently shaped trunk that looks like an onion, brown petioles and some dark (black) spots on fronds, agressive thorns everywhere, W. filifera looks almost innocent compared to this armed alligator. Does it look like a young pure W. robusta (robusta dominant hybrid)? The washies with no green spears from the pictures above were exactly the same.

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18 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

When you say the temperature is "0C during the day"... do you mean that you have a couple of weeks in mid-winter where the daytime temperature does not rise above freezing?

Those washies are a bit of a concern as well and don't look good. They have totally defoliated and have no green spears pushing through, despite the fact we are nearly in April now. I don't want to sound negative, but I think they are probably dead. Please do keep an eye on them and post an update in a few weeks/months. 

Mid-winter daytime temperature is usually above zero, on very few occasions the daytime temperature stays at sub-freezing for a day or two, but it still happens.    

3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Collectorpalms There’s a huge difference though between your average high temperature at College Station in January (60F) and his average high temperature in Namangan in January (40F). Putting the ultimate low temperature aside, there’s a difference of 20F (10C) on average for daytime highs, so while a CIDP may come back from a freak 5F low where you are, it may not be the same for him.
 

The daytime warmup is nowhere near the same in his location. His average January low is 26F as well, compared to 41F in College Station. When you guys have a freak cold snap and say a 5F or 10F low, it is usually followed by 70F highs and 50F lows a week later. That is why the CIDP’s in your part of Texas may pull through. The same reason they may survive in El Paso or parts of NM. 

Talking about daytime warmup, here are interesting heatmaps with average hourly temps that show the daytime warmup for various locations mentioned in this topic. 

avgwethaernamangan-riorancho.jpg

collegestation-elpaso.jpg

17 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

I could be wrong, but I doubt there are any Dacty's or CIDP planted outdoors in Uzbekistan. The OP would have to keep them in pots and bring them under cover each winter. 

I haven't seen any, at least in my area. Seemingly CIDPs just regularly fail in the winter with passive protection, I don't think there are many enthusiasts here who construct active protection for their palms. All Phoenix palms sold here as houseplants, it made me wonder why not to try it in the ground outside. 

Edited by MSX
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2 hours ago, MSX said:

Does it look like a young pure W. robusta (robusta dominant hybrid)?

To me it looks like a hybrid W. filibusta with some robusta anyway.  More difficult to tell at this young stage but hybrids grow faster than filifera and almost as fast as robusta.  Believe it or not CIDP are more dangerous because they not only have long needle-like thorns near the base of the petiole but the tips of the leaflets are also sharp.  You almost need a suit of armor and face shield when trimming once they get some size to them since they poke and prick you when you least expect it!  The hook-like thorns along the petioles of Washingtonia are also nasty but easier to avoid. But CIDP are beautiful palms!

Jon

Edited by Fusca
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Jon Sunder

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Will be very hard to establish Phoenix in zone 7 or 8a.  While they are very bud hardy, and can take extremely low temperatures (-10 to -15C), they are not very leaf hardy and will defoliate below around 20F (-6 or -7C).  This will put the palm in a continual state of decline.  Phoenix Canariensis are notorious for taking a long time, up to two years, to fully restore their crowns.  So, if you get, for example, an 8a winter, you really need that to be followed by 2 or 3 zone 9 winters in order for the palm to fully recover.  It can take an occasional zone 8 winter, provided that doesn't happen all the time (every year). 

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What about a Jubaea Chilensis ?

could be the only feather palm you can grow without protection..

Slow grower, but a fantastic palm.

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