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Araucaria columnaris


ahosey01

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Does anyone have any info about anybody trying one of these in the desert?

If they can survive 21F and a day under 40 in South Padre without damage then they can certainly survive my temps.  Just don't know how they do with no humidity.  You'd think you'd see them outside once in a while around here.

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2 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

If they can survive 21F and a day under 40 in South Padre without damage then they can certainly survive my temps

*23F. I don't think cold hardiness translates neatly like that. There are royal and foxtail palms that seem to have survived too, do you see any of those in your area? Inland parts of far south TX also "only" saw 22-23F and the Cook Pines generally took on much more damage there. 

They look dead in the Corpus Area which saw 19-20F. Below 25F has historically caused major damage/death in the Houston-Galveston Area further up the coast and also in New Orleans and far SE Louisiana. 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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1 minute ago, Xenon said:

*23F. I don't think cold hardiness translates neatly like that. There are royal and foxtail palms that seem to have survived too, do you see any of those in your area? Inland parts of far south TX also "only" saw 22-23F and the Cook Pines generally took on much more damage there. 

They look dead in the Corpus Area which saw 19-20F. Below 25F has historically caused major damage/death in the Houston-Galveston Area further up the coast and also in New Orleans and far SE Louisiana. 

There are definitely royals here in the low desert but I think foxtails get cooked in the heat.  I don’t know that the problem is the cold.  We’re above 50F in the daytime even on the coldest days.  Our lows are so much shorter and so much drier and typically without frost that - while I’d agree it translates nicely - it seems like our events would be easier than Texas’s.  I could certainly be wrong.

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3 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

There are definitely royals here in the low desert but I think foxtails get cooked in the heat.  I don’t know that the problem is the cold.  We’re above 50F in the daytime even on the coldest days.  Our lows are so much shorter and so much drier and typically without frost that - while I’d agree it translates nicely - it seems like our events would be easier than Texas’s.  I could certainly be wrong.

Aren't you +1000 ft vs Phoenix? I would assume it gets significantly colder there than close to town. 

Winter in far south TX is a completely different annimal.  It's warm or downright tropical...until it's not. This was last February:  half of the month in the 80s and 90s with a handful of coooold days. I don't think you would see such a rollercoaster ride or nights in the upper 60s or 70s in your locale. The constant up and down is probably involved in ultimate hardiness somehow. Don't forget there are (were?) coconuts there so warm days in winter are generally the norm, days below 50F are very rare and 70s and 80s are always around the corner. 

mcallennnn.JPG.e118c997c377e4585506bccf4bafbdcd.JPG

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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36 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Aren't you +1000 ft vs Phoenix? I would assume it gets significantly colder there than close to town. 

Winter in far south TX is a completely different annimal.  It's warm or downright tropical...until it's not. This was last February:  half of the month in the 80s and 90s with a handful of coooold days. I don't think you would see such a rollercoaster ride or nights in the upper 60s or 70s in your locale. The constant up and down is probably involved in ultimate hardiness somehow. Don't forget there are (were?) coconuts there so warm days in winter are generally the norm, days below 50F are very rare and 70s and 80s are always around the corner. 

mcallennnn.JPG.e118c997c377e4585506bccf4bafbdcd.JPG

Yeah - this is an interesting concept to me. 

To answer the first question - yes, we are typically colder on any given night than Phoenix, sometimes significantly.  I was generalizing across the whole valley.  In Wickenburg, we are about 1,200' higher.  On an average night, though, they might bottom out at 41F and us at 29F.  So there's a big difference there on a regular basis.  However, our "once in a century" events are basically the same.  They hit 21-23F in 07, we hit 19-21F - something that is interesting to me and which I can't explain.

The other thing is that down here at the bottom of the valley, we are also often as hot or hotter than they are in the day.  Here is the closest station to me in Wickenburg:

image.thumb.png.09b92d7c95270c0aedb10378f7467f8f.png

Add 3-4F in the day, and subtract 3-4F at night.  2/27 is a good example.  I measure the temps in my yard once a week or so.  On 02/27 I took some measurements - when they hit 30F, we hit 27F.  But later that day, when they hit 72F, we hit 76F.  Nearly 50 degree swing.  So ours is a different rollercoaster - it's daily and all the time  Yours looks like it's spread out much more across the month.  You might have a daytime high of 38F and then another of 91F.  At my house, they'll stay between 65F and 85F, but our overnight lows will also stay between 26F and 40F.  Not sure what that means for plants.

Daytime highs are where we have a big advantage against the cold for our plants.  I believe the coldest-ever daytime high for us (so, record-low high, confusing as that is) was like 40F.  It almost happened again a few years back and they ran a story on it.  It's extremely rare (like... probably once every 5-10 years) we stay below 55F during the day.  And even then it only stays below 40F like once-in-a-century.

We have sissoo trees and old (15+ year) queen palms in the immediate local area despite these overnight temps.  My thought is that has something to do with the wild swings between day and night.  We even had big jacarandas until '07 when the freeze did them in.

Edited by ahosey01
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9 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

We even had big jacarandas until '07 when the freeze did them in.

Jacaranda and Cook Pine are similar in hardiness from what I've seen in TX. The only difference is that jacaranda will recover its crown/shape and look like nothing happened years later while Cook Pine sustains irreversible damage and never regains that nice symmetrical look. There are some in parts of Galveston that barely hung on after a freeze in 2018 (22-23F) and they looked horrible and never made anything close to a fully recovery despite not dying outright. 

Queen palms in TX are much much more cold hardy than Cook Pine. 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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6 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Jacaranda and Cook Pine are similar in hardiness from what I've seen in TX. The only difference is that jacaranda will recover its crown/shape and look like nothing happened years later while Cook Pine sustains irreversible damage and never regains that nice symmetrical look. There are some in parts of Galveston that barely hung on after a freeze in 2018 (22-23F) and they looked horrible and never made anything close to a fully recovery despite not dying outright. 

Queen palms in TX are much much more cold hardy than Cook Pine. 

This is interesting to me.

I bought an Agathis robusta - which is supposed to be tropical - and planted it in good soil in the front yard last fall.  Made it through the whole winter completely unscathed (summer is TBD), but the people at the nursery were convinced I was nuts.  Wouldn't know for sure with a cook pine until I tried it, but you make a good point.

Also interested in trying Araucaria hunsteinii but there's no meaningful cold-hardiness data out there.

Still curious why you don't see Cook Pines in Phoenix even though you do see royals and jacarandas.

Edited by ahosey01
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9 hours ago, necturus said:

There's some data on the internet suggesting Agathis robusta has some hardiness.

So far I can confirm this is true.

Another interesting feature I've noticed - I'll have to post a photo if I can capture one - when it is very cold (<30F), the leaves suck in to the branches and trunk.  Then when it warms up, they go back to their normal position.  The tree at 6:00AM on a cold morning looks completely different than 12:00PM later that same day.

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I do not believe this issue to be totally  temperature/zone related. I believe that this specimen requires a certain amount of moisture and humidity for survival. I believe that is why it is rated Sunset 24. That stated, no reason not to give it a shot!

What you look for is what is looking

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I checked out your Wickenburg, Az climate and it is outstanding. However, no way it compares to the RGV in the most important requirement for growing tropicals.

Your average median temperature for December and January is 47.8F and 48.5F respectively. This includes average minimum temperatures in December and January of 31.5F and 31.2F respectively.

Contrariwise, RGV in this horrible freeze still had a monthly median temperature above 60° F. RGV is generally extremely close to the Koppen Tropical designation of 64.8F. Although The lowest temperature ever recorded was 12° F, this was likely a 500 year event.

The lowest temperature recorded in Wickenburg, AZ is 10° F. Kauri Pine takes lows under 20 F and are amenable to Zone 8, far from tropical. I am all about pushing zones but you may want to  be more realistic!

What you look for is what is looking

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5 hours ago, bubba said:

I checked out your Wickenburg, Az climate and it is outstanding. However, no way it compares to the RGV in the most important requirement for growing tropicals.

Your average median temperature for December and January is 47.8F and 48.5F respectively. This includes average minimum temperatures in December and January of 31.5F and 31.2F respectively.

Contrariwise, RGV in this horrible freeze still had a monthly median temperature above 60° F. RGV is generally extremely close to the Koppen Tropical designation of 64.8F. Although The lowest temperature ever recorded was 12° F, this was likely a 500 year event.

The lowest temperature recorded in Wickenburg, AZ is 10° F. Kauri Pine takes lows under 20 F and are amenable to Zone 8, far from tropical. I am all about pushing zones but you may want to  be more realistic!

I think you're getting that data from Wikipedia and I have seen it too and have no clue where they get their info but I have a hard time imagining it getting down to 10F here in the last hundred years.  The data I have from the local station says 17F is the coldest and that came in (I think) 1983 or something.  They list the average high as 64F in the wintertime and that's bananas.  I can't imagine we have more than 15-20 days all winter where the high doesn't hit at least 70F down at the house.  The 31-32F avg low is possible but I don't buy the avg high for a second and I certainly can't imagine a 10F low.  Although I believe Tucson's Wikipedia page has an all-time-low of 6F listed so who knows where that data came from or when it supposedly happened.

Median temperature at our place would definitely be lower here than the RGV because 40F-50F daily swings are the norm between early morning and late afternoon, though, that's definitely true.

Also to your comment about zone pushing, my only zone push I have is a Phoenix roebellenii because it's small and easy to protect - LOL.  Everything else is teens hardy or lower in the dry.

Edited by ahosey01
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I do not mean to beat a dead horse but the National Weather Service reports the lowest temperature in Wickenburg, Arizona of 10° F  on January 30, 1946. The lowest in Tucson is 6° F, Phoenix 16° F and Gila Bend is 10° F. It can get cold in Arizona.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the RGV is very close to Koppen-Geiger Tropical even during a month that experienced a horrific freeze (60 F). Accordingly, you see numerous coconuts, Royals, Royal Poinciana and many other tropicals that flourish and many of which will survive this cold event.

I do not intend to burst your bubble but your belief that Wickenburg, Arizona can grow similar tropicals to those grown in the RGV is flawed. Sisso trees are USDA rated at Zone 8 (10-15 F). The Wikipedia article may be close to valid or you could live in a microclimate that allows your property to be warmer than Phoenix.

 

 

What you look for is what is looking

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Bubba is correct about a low of 10F in Wickenburg, which has happened three times. You can find the historical data on Wickenburg here, at the WRCC. Go to the left-hand panel, scroll all the way to the bottom and you'll see in the penultimate group "Daily Summary Stats." That will show you day by day through history the average and all-time highs and lows. In addition to those 10F readings, you will also see 11F and a number of low teens throughout the winter period, also a lot of chilly daytime highs, but mostly in the distant past. Perhaps some urbanization has pushed a lot of your extreme cold into the realm of severe outliers by now.

But if you were to plant an Araucaria and it survived for a decade and then got freeze-killed at 30' or more in height, you'd have a helluva tree-removal bill on your hands. Per your note above, I imagine the Jacaranda owners in your area who had to take care of the carcasses were none too happy about it, since Jacarandas become huge trees very quickly in the desert heat. It's all so tempting when you're starting a landscape to go out on ledge after ledge, but one good smack and you learn to pay attention to history...

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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8 hours ago, bubba said:

I do not mean to beat a dead horse but the National Weather Service reports the lowest temperature in Wickenburg, Arizona of 10° F  on January 30, 1946. The lowest in Tucson is 6° F, Phoenix 16° F and Gila Bend is 10° F. It can get cold in Arizona.

 

The point I was trying to make is that the RGV is very close to Koppen-Geiger Tropical even during a month that experienced a horrific freeze (60 F). Accordingly, you see numerous coconuts, Royals, Royal Poinciana and many other tropicals that flourish and many of which will survive this cold event.

I do not intend to burst your bubble but your belief that Wickenburg, Arizona can grow similar tropicals to those grown in the RGV is flawed. Sisso trees are USDA rated at Zone 8 (10-15 F). The Wikipedia article may be close to valid or you could live in a microclimate that allows your property to be warmer than Phoenix.

 

 

Huh?

I just thought it would be fun to try an Araucaria columnaris and simultaneously wondered why you don't see them in the low desert.  My entire garden is BraheaWashingtoniaSabalPhoenix and heat-and-cold tolerant conifers.  If I held that belief, I'd have at least a single tropical plant in my yard - no?

Do you speak that way to people when you are face to face with them?

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6 hours ago, mnorell said:

Bubba is correct about a low of 10F in Wickenburg, which has happened three times. You can find the historical data on Wickenburg here, at the WRCC. Go to the left-hand panel, scroll all the way to the bottom and you'll see in the penultimate group "Daily Summary Stats." That will show you day by day through history the average and all-time highs and lows. In addition to those 10F readings, you will also see 11F and a number of low teens throughout the winter period, also a lot of chilly daytime highs, but mostly in the distant past. Perhaps some urbanization has pushed a lot of your extreme cold into the realm of severe outliers by now.

But if you were to plant an Araucaria and it survived for a decade and then got freeze-killed at 30' or more in height, you'd have a helluva tree-removal bill on your hands. Per your note above, I imagine the Jacaranda owners in your area who had to take care of the carcasses were none too happy about it, since Jacarandas become huge trees very quickly in the desert heat. It's all so tempting when you're starting a landscape to go out on ledge after ledge, but one good smack and you learn to pay attention to history...

One of my closest friends is the premier arborist in the area running a really solid tree service.  He had a good winter that year! Fair point about the removal costs as well.

Also - to my point above - I'm not out on any zone-pushing ledges at all.  Out of 50 plants in the yard, a single small, perpetually-coverable one is a zone push.  Absolutely nothing else is.  Just wondered if you could grow A. columnaris and was also curious why you don't see them in the low desert.

Edited by ahosey01
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Please don't think anyone is judging you here...these kinds of questions about growing "atypical" plants in a given region are natural for all of us who like to experiment and who enjoy a challenge. My point is just that when you start experimenting with large material, it can have a painful end! I went through it with a large Phoenix sylvestris in Natchez, Mississippi. It had become quite a large palm and after the freeze that finally put an end to it, I had to pay for it and it was not a small check.

I think the thing about Araucaria, most of us are very conditioned to seeing Norfolk and Cook "Pines" in the rather cool tropical-to-temperate oceanic coasts and for me at least, it seems that they would balk at the Wickenburg climate. It may turn out that they do fine as long as you can meet their low temperature requirements. However, I think there might be other species that are naturally more at home in a dry climate. I would think you'd have a good result with the Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana) since it comes from Chile where it is very dry and they are known to handle a lot of cold; also the funnier thing to me is that you are not far from a large field of extinct proto-Araucaria trees, in the Petrified Forest, and you can drive right over and see the trunks! See here: Araucarioxylon arizonicum.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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14 hours ago, mnorell said:

Please don't think anyone is judging you here...these kinds of questions about growing "atypical" plants in a given region are natural for all of us who like to experiment and who enjoy a challenge. My point is just that when you start experimenting with large material, it can have a painful end! I went through it with a large Phoenix sylvestris in Natchez, Mississippi. It had become quite a large palm and after the freeze that finally put an end to it, I had to pay for it and it was not a small check.

I think the thing about Araucaria, most of us are very conditioned to seeing Norfolk and Cook "Pines" in the rather cool tropical-to-temperate oceanic coasts and for me at least, it seems that they would balk at the Wickenburg climate. It may turn out that they do fine as long as you can meet their low temperature requirements. However, I think there might be other species that are naturally more at home in a dry climate. I would think you'd have a good result with the Monkey Puzzle (Araucaria araucana) since it comes from Chile where it is very dry and they are known to handle a lot of cold; also the funnier thing to me is that you are not far from a large field of extinct proto-Araucaria trees, in the Petrified Forest, and you can drive right over and see the trunks! See here: Araucarioxylon arizonicum.

I know!! I have wanted to go there for a while and I have not done it yet.  I recently ordered the book The Genus Araucaria and I'm expecting there's all kind of information in there on the petrified forest.

I have a Bunya that is doing well, and an Agathis robusta, as well as two Araucaria angustifolia that are currently planted on the east side of a tall mesquite canopy.  Those A. angustifolia are still a question mark in the summer heat.  That's how I feel about Araucaria araucana - I think they just don't do well in the heat.  Can't say for sure but that's what I have heard from some people I know who tried one in Tucson in 2008-ish.  I'd kill for one!

The crown jewel for me would be to live somewhere (and grow) the Araucaria hunsteinii.  Can't imagine they like the dry conditions though, given where they're from in Papua New Guinea.

Edited by ahosey01
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11 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

I know!! I have wanted to go there for a while and I have not done it yet.  I recently ordered the book The Genus Araucaria and I'm expecting there's all kind of information in there on the petrified forest.

I have a Bunya that is doing well, and an Agathis robusta, as well as two Araucaria angustifolia that are currently planted on the east side of a tall mesquite canopy.  Those A. angustifolia are still a question mark in the summer heat.  That's how I feel about Araucaria araucana - I think they just don't do well in the heat.  Can't say for sure but that's what I have heard from some people I know who tried one in Tucson in 2008-ish.  I'd kill for one!

The crown jewel for me would be to live somewhere (and grow) the Araucaria hunsteinii.  Can't imagine they like the dry conditions though, given where they're from in Papua New Guinea.

You should try A. cunninghamii, it grows along the coastal tropical savanna climates in Queensland and should definitely see some continental heat waves every now and then. It's reportedly hardy into the upper teens in Florida and there is palmtalk member with a big one in Jacksonville which is generally too cold for large Cook Pines (aside from possible beach/river microclimates). 

Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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6 hours ago, Xenon said:

You should try A. cunninghamii, it grows along the coastal tropical savanna climates in Queensland and should definitely see some continental heat waves every now and then. It's reportedly hardy into the upper teens in Florida and there is palmtalk member with a big one in Jacksonville which is generally too cold for large Cook Pines (aside from possible beach/river microclimates). 

I think this is also a good idea. Can’t figure out where to buy seed for the life of me, though.

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I went to Mercer today. The bunya bunya and Araucaria cunninghamii look bad. All leaves are still brown, and the big bunya bunya and A. cunninghamii have a lot of sap leaking. :(

Talk about a big job, removing those monsters.

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