How long before cold hardy palms start growing post storm?

[PricklyPearSATC]

3 hours ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Agreed...I’m too protective, especially with the last three mild winters we’ve had...going to loosen up on this next winter barring any arctic lows.

I wish I had been more protective.

This arctic blast took totally by surprise. I did not believe the early forecasts because it's hard to believe it's gonna be 5F when it's 80 degrees.   Our last 7 winters had pretty much been 9b.
I haven't covered anything in my yard in years.    I didn't worry until I started getting alerts from our mayor on Nextdoor.  My palms are all hardy to 10 degrees and my Sagos were here in 1989. 

By the weekend it was too late to buy anything.  I just threw some blankets on my livistona (which is already too large for blankets), I covered my aloe and my Mexican Olives and that was all I did. 

We had ice and we had 100 hours of freeze. 

[Sabal King]

OK so an update on the one that lost its spears... have pulled out another frond today and so I decided to just do surgery so I cut right beneath where the hollowness ended and here is what I found... is this one gone?  I don't know what I'm looking for.  The middle of the trunk isn't dry it's soft material as though it's growing.  Should this part be green?  Is this one gone?

[Jimhardy]

When you don't see any pattern of leaves and petioles in there it most likely done...

you have cut past the meristem and it does appear it was all damaged, if thats true then I doubt

this palm could have been saved......

Do you see the shapes where the petioles came in on the outside of the trunk?

Those would go all the way to the middle, decreasing in size if the bud was good.

I doubt it will come back but if temps are warm you won't have to wait long....I have seen

the center rise up in a few hours or the next day when there is bud material left.....

lets see if I can post this link

 

and by the way, you are a surgeon now. 

 

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getImageDetail&image_soid=FIGURE 4&document_soid=EP473&document_version=54

Edited March 10, 2021 by Jimhardy

[Jimhardy]

One(more) last thing....of course...

 

Usually (what I call ) socket or core pull like the pic you showed with the petiole

and the cup/socket/core (whatever) hanging off the side like a ladle (Ladle pull? )

can be a good indicator(now we know right?) of serious issues....

[PricklyPearSATC]

17 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

Its not going to hurt the palm to cut...follow your instinct...

If you do cut, make sure to stabilize the trunk, they can take a beating because 

these have so much fiber they are tough to cut through.....in that palms case you are not removing

live tissue and causing any damage that will set it back- a deep pocket like that can be an issue.

Listen to the palm, trust your instincts - if you cut you will see if there is live tissue or not, if no

cut another inch or two but remember that the bud only goes so far down....you will know when you

hit live tissue(creamy white puzzle pattern) and depending on the temps I have seen palms start pushing in hours, or days...just

depends on the palm.   I wish I could show you all my pics going through his but thanks to Photobucket

raising their monthly fee from $2.99 to $40.00 a month....they will remain hostages.

 

good luck!

Would have been cool to see! You can put them on google photos...

[PricklyPearSATC]

8 hours ago, tlow said:

OK so an update on the one that lost its spears... have pulled out another frond today and so I decided to just do surgery so I cut right beneath where the hollowness ended and here is what I found... is this one gone?  I don't know what I'm looking for.  The middle of the trunk isn't dry it's soft material as though it's growing.  Should this part be green?  Is this one gone?

Man, that's sad....
What I'm doing with my Livistona is packing it with copper sulfate powder (nothing wet)....No growth...No spear pull... experiment....Probably won't live...
I did the copper sulfate on my crinums.  They were like mush.  The growth coming out of one has the color and consistency of a slug...(But at least it's growing)....It's really bizarre to see a 2 inch brown slug like growth coming out of the bulb.  I also put blowers on my crinum.  I also put a blower on my livistona.  I'm a novice myself.  I don't know what I'm doing, but the copper sulfate helped my crinums because it is drying. 

I take the spears and wiggle them and get as much copper sulfate down in their as deep as possible. 

[Sabal King]

Well some good news and bad news.. bad news is I think my windmill above is gone.. no growth, nothing happening.  The spot where it's cut is soft, smells pleasant but doesn't appear to be pushing anything or doing anything.  I would've expected it to be dry and dead looking by now... should it be?  I'm not ready to dig this one up just yet, but it won't be very long before I will.  I have some small washingtonia filifera seedlings coming next week that will need a home...

Good news is, walking around looking at my windmills they are all pushing spears higher and they are now clearly above my mark.  Before it was a well maybe it's higher, maybe not, but now it's a good .25" above the mark and the spears are beginning to loosen and get larger horizontally.. so I believe those will be in good shape as rough as they look!

My Texas Sabals aren't doing anything either right now but could be normal as they are slow growers?

 

 

[Jimhardy]

yeah...The Sabal will need some heat to get going...most likely.

 

Check out that link I posted...it shows the meristem location and you can see that 

yours was cut right past the inner cup that holds it right into the lower stem.

Pretty cool too that it shows where the little flower bud is in relation to the meristem

palms have some really interesting adaptations...Megs comment about making an area

around the palm and mulching is good advice...it also makes sure to keep your nutrients you may

be feeding and water right to the palm so it can go deep instead of running off or getting sucked

up by the grass etc.

[Sabal King]

12 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

yeah...The Sabal will need some heat to get going...most likely.

 

Check out that link I posted...it shows the meristem location and you can see that 

yours was cut right past the inner cup that holds it right into the lower stem.

Pretty cool too that it shows where the little flower bud is in relation to the meristem

palms have some really interesting adaptations...Megs comment about making an area

around the palm and mulching is good advice...it also makes sure to keep your nutrients you may

be feeding and water right to the palm so it can go deep instead of running off or getting sucked

up by the grass etc.

Understood on the sabals.. I will leave them be for now.

I did take a look at the link, and it makes sense.. I think one of my screenshots showed that heart.  So are we in agreement that this one is toast and will not produce anything or does it make sense to give it some time even a few days or no?  I have some filifera seedlings coming in a few days that one could certainly take this one's spot..  Sad thing is, I put all of these down last October (just finished our backyard and pool area, and just moved to texas last April) and then this damn storm happens... ugh!  We left the north for a reason but it followed us.

[NBTX11]

3 hours ago, tlow said:

Understood on the sabals.. I will leave them be for now.

I did take a look at the link, and it makes sense.. I think one of my screenshots showed that heart.  So are we in agreement that this one is toast and will not produce anything or does it make sense to give it some time even a few days or no?  I have some filifera seedlings coming in a few days that one could certainly take this one's spot..  Sad thing is, I put all of these down last October (just finished our backyard and pool area, and just moved to texas last April) and then this damn storm happens... ugh!  We left the north for a reason but it followed us.

The good news is that the likelihood of this happening again soon to this level are pretty small.  I am not saying you can't have another severe freeze next year, but the likelihood of it being to this level are really, really small.  Depending on how you look at it, this could be anywhere from a 30 to 50 or even 100 year freeze.   

[Sabal King]

Just now, NBTX11 said:

The good news is that the likelihood of this happening again soon to this level are pretty small.  I am not saying you can't have another severe freeze next year, but the likelihood of it being to this level are really, really small.  Depending on how you look at it, this could be anywhere from a 30 to 50 or even 100 year freeze.   

hey good to get this out of the way on my first winter here huh? hah...

[NBTX11]

Just now, tlow said:

hey good to get this out of the way on my first winter here huh? hah...

Yeah.  At least your stuff isn't mature yet where you are cutting down large trees.  Look at the positive, it set you back one year.  In a normal year, you aren't going to have any problems with Trachycarpus, Sabals, and Filiferas.

[Sabal King]

29 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Yeah.  At least your stuff isn't mature yet where you are cutting down large trees.  Look at the positive, it set you back one year.  In a normal year, you aren't going to have any problems with Trachycarpus, Sabals, and Filiferas.

If there is a silver lining here that will be it..  I had five mexican fan palms that look fried but interestingly enough, no spear pull on any of them, and there is dark green at the base of the spear that was coming out during the storm.  I'm leaving them be for a little while to see if there is life left in them.  I was tempted to surgery one of them and just start cutting down to see if they're dead or not.  I'm receiving six filifera seedlings on Friday that could occupy some of these spots, and since the storm I have planted 3x Pindos, 3x Sabal Majors, and 5x European Fan Palms.  If the rest of my windmills, and sabals pull through it will be a great overall backyard.  The pool area will literally look like the tropics!

[parsons acre]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:54 PM, Will Simpson said:

If it is only petiole and frond damage you should start seeing growth in a week or a little  more with mild weather . But don't cut anything  down until August . I once heard a saying by Gary Hollar about cold damage  ;  I think it was he  ,  that says , you don't know if a palm is alive until May , but you don't know if it is dead until  August . 

Good luck .

Will

Gary Hollar.. New Berr right.. great guy, great quote... I havent been down alistair for a while how does your garden grow?

 

[Jimhardy]

One of the issues with waiting is that on warm wet days (Its moist and hot in that damaged center)the fungus

can outgrow the bud especially since the palm is not dealing with warm soil

where nutrients are available....when all the fronds are dead and you see the center cup pull

you have serious rot down there and opening it up to light and air will destroy any chance

the fungus has of winning the battle.....you have seen it now and you have first hand experience...

besides, when every leaf is dead, whats there to lose.

[Sabal King]

2 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

One of the issues with waiting is that on warm wet days (Its moist and hot in that damaged center)the fungus

can outgrow the bud especially since the palm is not dealing with warm soil

where nutrients are available....when all the fronds are dead and you see the center cup pull

you have serious rot down there and opening it up to light and air will destroy any chance

the fungus has of winning the battle.....you have seen it now and you have first hand experience...

besides, when every leaf is dead, whats there to lose.

Yup.. you live you learn.  I'll replace this one but thus far one down out of a total of five isn't bad.. My other four where there was a tight spear coming out, I marked them all horizontally, they have either gone ABOVE the line on the petiole, or that spear has started to pushing horizontally like an accordian... Either way the windmills are growing!  The five small mexicans I had all spear pulled today, I surgeried, and they are removed to make way for some Sabal Major, Pindo, and Filifera seedlings :-)  Not wasting any time !  I'm excited to see these windmills in a few weeks when they start growing much more.

[pinstripepat]

OK maybe a dumb question. I have two beautiful sabal palms that I bought a few years back 2019, they are from one root ball. Not to sound simple but basically two 25' sabals that go to one rootball at the ground. When they planted it, it looked like one big ball. They are literally 8" apart at the base. They are awesome.

My question is, I live in DFW and we just had that historic freeze. The one on the right looks like it might have a chance, nice and green in the middle coming out of the heart and the outer fronds are browning. The one on the left has green but it is less green, more of a light green at the heart than its friend. My question is, are these two palms separate trees with seperate mom roots or are they truly from one rootball as I have suspected for a few years since I bought them.  Why I ask of course is, I am worried about recovery and curious can one make it and the other not,  or how do you folks expect this will go. If they are one rootball and the one on the right looks better is that a good sign for both etc..? Trying to get my gameplan now.

Right after the freeze I sprayed them both with liquid copper and our weather, of course, has been in the 70's since that freeze. My second dose of liquid copper was applied this past  weekend. 

Thanks all. 

Patrick in DFW

Edited March 11, 2021 by pinstripepat

[PricklyPearSATC]

1 minute ago, pinstripepat said:

OK maybe a dumb question. I have two beautiful sabal palms that I bought a few years back 2019, they are from one root ball. Not to sound simple but basically two 25' sabals that go to one rootball at the ground. When they planted it, it looked like one big ball. They are literally 8" apart at the base. They are awesome.

My question is, I live in DFW and we just had that historic freeze. The one on the right looks like it might have a chance, nice and green in the middle coming out of the heart and the outer fronds are browning. The one on the left has green but it is less green, more of a light green at the heart than its friend. My question is, are these two palms separate trees with seperate mom roots or are they truly from one rootball as I have suspected for a few years since I bought them.  Why I ask of course is, I am worried about recovery and curious can one make it and the other not,  or how do you folks expect this will go. If they are one rootball and the one on the right looks better is that a good sign for both etc..? Trying to get my gameplan now.

Right after the freeze I sprayed them both with liquid copper and our weather, of course, has been in the 70's since that freeze. My second dose of liquid copper is scheduled for this weekend. 

Thanks all. 

Patrick in DFW

They are two separate plants. It is possible that some of their roots have grafted, but the problem won't be the roots, it will be the bud. Roots will not save a plant with a dead bud.  Likewise, a dead bud on one plant will not compromise the roots of the other plant.  Give it time.  The healthy plant could eventually help a lot performing plant,  but if there is serious bud rot, the healthy plant won't help.

 

[Chester B]

They're two separate trees, Sabals don't sucker.  If one dies, cut it back to the ground, don't disturb the roots. 

Even if if were a suckering type of palm they can lose offsets or even the main trunk and continue to thrive.  

 

 

[pinstripepat]

Thanks so much, point of note they are Florida sabal not Texas if that matters.

I am starting to feel better about the right one. Even the left has green in the middle it is just more yellow.

Also, Am I crazy but I seem to be seeing the green increasing on the fronds that were brown. In other words if you are looking at the "fan" of fronds it looked as if the brown went down further a week ago then it does now.  Almost as if the green is starting to go back up the "fan" if you will.

I am quite sure I have looked at them way too long... LOL

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by pinstripepat

[Chester B]

Brown is dead, it won't turn green again.

[Sabal King]

So I did some housekeeping today.. pruned off all of the dead brown parts of the fronds.. Still plenty of green left, these four are going to be fine in time.

On this one you can see the spear that was completely tight but exposed to the storm... top half looks awful, opening up now, but the bottom half is green as could be... there are more spears right behind it!

When I marked the one above, it was totally tight, now it's expanding..... seems like good progress to me!

Again, new spears already coming, green as could be.

 

All in all I think we're out of the woods with the windmills.. I'll have to replace one, but like I said I have filiferas and more windmills coming.  I feel relieved to have only lost one...

 

 

[Jimhardy]

So nice to see the green popping up!  Bring on spring!

Although these dang La Nina winters....mild foggy above avg and then brutal cold....

I do believe the same thing happened last time and they were saying maybe -30F here but it

didn't get  quite that cold.....maybe a good heads up in the future(do we have a future?)

when a LaNina is forecast....part of the problem is...its just as big a shock(more they stay out) for

palms as is it is for us when that Arctic air arrives-much worse if it hasn't been cold and palms are 

actively growing new growth is tender.

Pinstripepat

 

You said it all here.....yep

"  can one make it and the other not "

[Sabal King]

14 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

So nice to see the green popping up!  Bring on spring!

Although these dang La Nina winters....mild foggy above avg and then brutal cold....

I do believe the same thing happened last time and they were saying maybe -30F here but it

didn't get  quite that cold.....maybe a good heads up in the future(do we have a future?)

when a LaNina is forecast....part of the problem is...its just as big a shock(more they stay out) for

palms as is it is for us when that Arctic air arrives-much worse if it hasn't been cold and palms are 

actively growing new growth is tender.

Pinstripepat

 

You said it all here.....yep

"  can one make it and the other not "

So I pruned off all the dead brown and crispy material in the fronds to make them look a a little more visually appealing.  I have NOT cut any petioles at all.  Even the ones lowest on the trunk are all green still.  I just want to confirm that I don't want to cut anything off?  I've seen some people essentially hurricane prune their palms after circumstances mine went through but wanted to ask.

[Jimhardy]

Anything green after that kind of cold is helpful to the plant for sure.

[pinstripepat]

Thanks to all of you for your help. I will try to get some pics posted here of my two sabals.  

As someone a lot wiser than me said....

"Time is the best critic and patience the best teacher" guess i'll learn a lot in a few months.

However, it makes the next quote even harder....

"Patience is not the ability to wait but to keep a good attitude while waiting"  

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by pinstripepat

[NBTX11]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:37 AM, tlow said:

So I pruned off all the dead brown and crispy material in the fronds to make them look a a little more visually appealing.  I have NOT cut any petioles at all.  Even the ones lowest on the trunk are all green still.  I just want to confirm that I don't want to cut anything off?  I've seen some people essentially hurricane prune their palms after circumstances mine went through but wanted to ask.

I trimmed off today some green petioles.  Yeah, I know you're not supposed to, but I got sick and tired of looking a brown fronds, so I trimmed them all off.  Now only all green Fronds are left on Filifera.  Palm not in any danger and is growing like crazy, so I trimmed off partially brown and green leaves.

[Sabal King]

14 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

I trimmed off today some green petioles.  Yeah, I know you're not supposed to, but I got sick and tired of looking a brown fronds, so I trimmed them all off.  Now only all green Fronds are left on Filifera.  Palm not in any danger and is growing like crazy, so I trimmed off partially brown and green leaves.

Good luck to ya!  I just want to see spears continue moving upward, and turn into beautiful fronds.  I'm impatient, but I just would love if they would give me a quick thumbs-up or not, heh.

[climate change virginia]

the washie should come back faster than all the others

Edited March 18, 2021 by climate change virginia

[Sabal King]

1 hour ago, climate change virginia said:

the washie should come back faster than all the others

The robustas didn't make it.. did surgery two weeks ago, nothing living in there so I replaced those with some W. Filifera seedlings which are cruising already.  The T. Fortunei have a lot of brown on them but the center spears look green, and I can track growth.  I have one that is concerning to me, lots of white'ish colored fronds, some green, the middle spear is white'ish, but then green underneath that so I'm assuming he just got burned from the cold weather and the green underneath is the healthy stuff pushing up.   Just need to keep monitoring that one.

[climate change virginia]

5 minutes ago, tlow said:

The robustas didn't make it.. did surgery two weeks ago, nothing living in there so I replaced those with some W. Filifera seedlings which are cruising already.  The T. Fortunei have a lot of brown on them but the center spears look green, and I can track growth.  I have one that is concerning to me, lots of white'ish colored fronds, some green, the middle spear is white'ish, but then green underneath that so I'm assuming he just got burned from the cold weather and the green underneath is the healthy stuff pushing up.   Just need to keep monitoring that one.

sorry for your loss

[Sabal King]

1 hour ago, climate change virginia said:

sorry for your loss

It's OK.. I didn't have high hopes for the Robustas at all as they were just planted a few months ago and aren't hardy to this temp to begin with.. but the rest I have hope for.. 

[PricklyPearSATC]

6 hours ago, tlow said:

The robustas didn't make it.. did surgery two weeks ago, nothing living in there so I replaced those with some W. Filifera seedlings which are cruising already.  The T. Fortunei have a lot of brown on them but the center spears look green, and I can track growth.  I have one that is concerning to me, lots of white'ish colored fronds, some green, the middle spear is white'ish, but then green underneath that so I'm assuming he just got burned from the cold weather and the green underneath is the healthy stuff pushing up.   Just need to keep monitoring that one.

My trachycarpus did the same thing.  My spear is unfurling and is whiteish in the center, but green at the tips and green at the base.   It looks like a green and white accordion. 

[Jimhardy]

yeah,I just bought 10 little "Filifera" seedlings...I had a hybrid before

and it was so much fun watching it grow....we get enough heat up here in summer

that a Washy will do well...it will be fun to see (once they get some size) how hardy the Filifera are...

my Washy Hybrid was fine until the temp went below 23F then all the leaves burned.

Cant wait to compare the Filifera...just hope they are the real deal.

they are out of Las Vegas and the guy says for sure Filifera so I only have

to wait a few years now to be sure lol....either way-looking forward to growing another Washy!

[Sabal King]

30 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

yeah,I just bought 10 little "Filifera" seedlings...I had a hybrid before

and it was so much fun watching it grow....we get enough heat up here in summer

that a Washy will do well...it will be fun to see (once they get some size) how hardy the Filifera are...

my Washy Hybrid was fine until the temp went below 23F then all the leaves burned.

Cant wait to compare the Filifera...just hope they are the real deal.

they are out of Las Vegas and the guy says for sure Filifera so I only have

to wait a few years now to be sure lol....either way-looking forward to growing another Washy!

Ebay?  If so we just got the same ones.. I ordered six and he gave me eight.  They're already growing super quickly since being put in the ground early last week or so...

 

3 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

My trachycarpus did the same thing.  My spear is unfurling and is whiteish in the center, but green at the tips and green at the base.   It looks like a green and white accordion. 

Great, mine look the same.. now looking around today I can see spears pushing higher, with green underneath the white... WOOT.. I think the other four are going to be just fine... 

[Jimhardy]

Acaver100 on E-bay. L.V. Nevada 

[Jimhardy]

Speaking of bad advice.....some people think they are professionals because they grow palms.

Listen to how wrong this guy is about cutting palms and the way he even describes it incorrectly...

if you can stand to listen to him that long.

In case you don't want to waste 9 minutes of your life-its what he says at 9:40 specifically...

he's like a doctor advising you against surgery because he has never operated.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Jimhardy

[Sabal King]

1 hour ago, Jimhardy said:

Speaking of bad advice.....some people think they are professionals because they grow palms.

Listen to how wrong this guy is about cutting palms and the way he even describes it incorrectly...

if you can stand to listen to him that long.

 

haha I watched the entire thing just because it helps me figure out what to do and what not to do.  One interesting thing I've read and seen now from multiple folks is the use of something like Leaf Guardian or some other Desiccant.  There are many out there, but seems like this is something we should do come the winter months, and or summer months actually.

[Jimhardy]

I don't know that you can stop Arctic cold from freezing out the core of the palm...

some of it depends on carb storage, higher ratio of sugars to water provides some help

along with the palm being dry...that can help too-obviously the less water the less 

expansion to rupture cells.

[PricklyPearSATC]

2 hours ago, Jimhardy said:

I don't know that you can stop Arctic cold from freezing out the core of the palm...

some of it depends on carb storage, higher ratio of sugars to water provides some help

along with the palm being dry...that can help too-obviously the less water the less 

expansion to rupture cells.

I think it depends on the "cold".   It might prevent minor cosmetic damage that occurs with light freezes etc.

I think using the product in Texas summers is a losing proposition.  I think it would have to be applied like every day and could actually damage a plant.