Which is faster? King or Queen...

[ExperimentalGrower]

Hey folks,

Which palm do you consider the faster grower in Mediterranean climates- King Palm or Queen Palm?

Thanks!

[tim_brissy_13]

From what I’ve seen, Archontophoenix is faster to form clear trunk and to maturity from seed, but S romanzoffiana is faster in terms of overall size and height. 

[Ben in Norcal]

Here in Norcal, really not too much between them in terms of vertical height.  My observation: queens grow faster WHEN GROWING, which really requires consistent 80+F temps.   All Archontophoenix species are quite happy to grow in much cooler temps, putting out new fronds and height year-round, including in December and January.  You won't see that on a Queen around here.  The longer growing season for Archontophoenix helps them keep pace with Queens. 

[climate change virginia]

diffidently a king palm

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

King at first, but in the long run... 5 or more years, the queen wins!

[James B]

Here in Rancho Cucamonga Queen palms based on people’s yards. I do not grow them but Kings need way more water to grow at their best. People here don’t water their queens at all and they grow as fast as Washingtonia. Who knows how fast they would grow if people gave them as much water as they receive in Brazil.  Because of this plus cold hardiness every house in my neighborhood has queens but almost none have King Palms. I think the price of Queens reflects that at big box stores: a 20 gallon size queen is $80 but same sized King is $199 at HD. 
 

Archontophoenix in my yard grows very fast but I spend way too much money watering beyond what most people use in their yards. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by James B

[sonoranfans]

Depends on the weather and how much you feed the queen.  In hot and dry arizona the queens win easily.  But in florida, queens look scrawny and chlorotic in our local sandy soils, kings do much better.   Queens age poorly in AZ and in florida, the older they get, the worse they look.   Save yourself the trouble and plant the king.  Even if the queen grows fast it will be difficult to keep happy.  If its too cold for the king, get a mule, its a far more attractive palm when mature than a queen.  Check some of your local bay area growers to see how they do in your area.

[sonoranfans]

18 hours ago, James B said:

Here in Rancho Cucamonga Queen palms based on people’s yards. I do not grow them but Kings need way more water to grow at their best. People here don’t water their queens at all and they grow as fast as Washingtonia. Who knows how fast they would grow if people gave them as much water as they receive in Brazil.  Because of this plus cold hardiness every house in my neighborhood has queens but almost none have King Palms. I think the price of Queens reflects that at big box stores: a 20 gallon size queen is $80 but same sized King is $199 at HD. 
 

Archontophoenix in my yard grows very fast but I spend way too much money watering beyond what most people use in their yards. 

You have a warm environment, are you using granite rock top dressing?  If your soil is sandy, you might not be able to grow a king to a happy level, they want clay(less water needed) in the heat.

 

[James B]

24 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

You have a warm environment, are you using granite rock top dressing?  If your soil is sandy, you might not be able to grow a king to a happy level, they want clay(less water needed) in the heat.

 

My soil is decomposed granite and rocky. My Kings are happy however they require lots of water. Not as bad as my two Roystonea, they are water hogs. In direct sun here they grow slower and do get some burn. The best performing Archontophoenix in my yard have morning sun and afternoon shade.

[Tracy]

On 3/2/2021 at 12:19 PM, ExperimentalGrower said:

Hey folks,

Which palm do you consider the faster grower in Mediterranean climates- King Palm or Queen Palm?

Thanks!

I think your answer is dependent on where in the "Mediterranean climate" zone.  I know locally here in Southern California I would have to say Syagrus romanzoffiana wins.  Queens move on diagonals as well as forwards and backwards like Kings but can move more than one space at a time unlike Kings.  Well that's a different analogy but personal experience with planting both in the same garden and giving all the same water in clay soil, the queens moved faster and got bigger more quickly.  The Syagrus r are all gone now, with only a few of the Archonto's remaining (as long as the landscape maintenance crew remains on top of removing the carpet of seedlings every year).  However, I would base your calculus on the response from people who are closer to you in climate and geography (i.e.Ben in Norcal  ), not on those of us in different climates that could still be categorized as Mediterranean climates.  If trying to decide which to plant, go with the one that is less commonly seen in your neighborhood to be different.

[Palmfarmer]

On 3/2/2021 at 4:42 PM, Ben in Norcal said:

Here in Norcal, really not too much between them in terms of vertical height.  My observation: queens grow faster WHEN GROWING, which really requires consistent 80+F temps.   All Archontophoenix species are quite happy to grow in much cooler temps, putting out new fronds and height year-round, including in December and January.  You won't see that on a Queen around here.  The longer growing season for Archontophoenix helps them keep pace with Queens. 

Strange i find queens to grow very consistant regardless of chilly wheater. they are not slow by any means, mine has doubled in 1 year but it happened much more gradual as supposed to how my Washies just blow up when its 30c and over. maybe they just need more establishment?

[Ben in Norcal]

2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Strange i find queens to grow very consistant regardless of chilly wheater. they are not slow by any means, mine has doubled in 1 year but it happened much more gradual as supposed to how my Washies just blow up when its 30c and over. maybe they just need more establishment?

Queens are one of the fastest palms there is, as I said...they just don't enjoy cool weather in the same way Archontophoenix do.

[enigma99]

Definitely queens in my experience. As long as a King isn’t in shock mode, they are not far behind!

[ExperimentalGrower]

18 hours ago, Tracy said:

I think your answer is dependent on where in the "Mediterranean climate" zone.  I know locally here in Southern California I would have to say Syagrus romanzoffiana wins.  Queens move on diagonals as well as forwards and backwards like Kings but can move more than one space at a time unlike Kings.  Well that's a different analogy but personal experience with planting both in the same garden and giving all the same water in clay soil, the queens moved faster and got bigger more quickly.  The Syagrus r are all gone now, with only a few of the Archonto's remaining (as long as the landscape maintenance crew remains on top of removing the carpet of seedlings every year).  However, I would base your calculus on the response from people who are closer to you in climate and geography (i.e.Ben in Norcal  ), not on those of us in different climates that could still be categorized as Mediterranean climates.  If trying to decide which to plant, go with the one that is less commonly seen in your neighborhood to be different.

Reason I’m asking is bc I’m in a cold sink in my neighborhood so I need a Queen(s) to create canopy for my Kings and wanted to make sure I got a big enough Queen to keep pace with my kings. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

My Archontophoenix cunninghamiana took just ten years to grow to what it took healthy queens twenty years to achieve. The ‘Illawarra’ variety in particular. They are unbelievable rockets in this climate growing at a high rate of speed even throughout winter when queen palms are barely moving. 

[Ben in Norcal]

6 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

My Archontophoenix cunninghamiana took just ten years to grow to what it took healthy queens twenty years to achieve. The ‘Illawarra’ variety in particular. They are unbelievable rockets in this climate growing at a high rate of speed even throughout winter when queen palms are barely moving. 

I'm with ya, Jim - Archontophoenix really feel optimized for our climate (IF you can keep them wet enough, that is!)

The other plus side on Archies is they don't yellow out like Syagrus sp. in our cool winters...they don't struggle with nutrient uptake given they are essentially always growing.

[enigma99]

18 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Reason I’m asking is bc I’m in a cold sink in my neighborhood so I need a Queen(s) to create canopy for my Kings and wanted to make sure I got a big enough Queen to keep pace with my kings. 

I don’t think you need a queen canopy for the Kings.  In fact, my Kings growing out in the open are the most healthy and fastest growing. I think you get a good amount of protection just clustering stuff together in close proximity until they get big. Then you thin them out

Edited March 5, 2021 by enigma99

[enigma99]

Just don’t be tempted by those beautiful 24” boxes at your local Lowe’s and you will be fine. Grab a 15gal or less!

[James B]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:42 PM, sonoranfans said:

29 minutes ago, enigma99 said:

I don’t think you need a queen canopy for the Kings.  In fact, my Kings growing out in the open are the most healthy and fastest growing. I think you get a good amount of protection just clustering stuff together in close proximity until they get big. Then you thin them out

I think it depends on your specific climate. My Kings that get afternoon shade or partial sun grow much faster up than the ones in full sun. My sun is quite intense here. Queens here thrive in full sun and handle it much better than Kings do in my area. 

[enigma99]

 

 

 

James, here is one out in the open. It does get super hot here, lots of 100s in the summer, occasionally a 110.  It does get shade after 2PM though, but still, a day of full sun at noon at 100 degrees is still pretty dang hot. It's always got lots of water and stays wet so maybe that has helped.

[ExperimentalGrower]

1 hour ago, enigma99 said:

I don’t think you need a queen canopy for the Kings.  In fact, my Kings growing out in the open are the most healthy and fastest growing. I think you get a good amount of protection just clustering stuff together in close proximity until they get big. Then you thin them out

Problem for me is, while most of the rest of the Bay Area sailed through this winter more or less frost free my neighborhood got hit pretty good, and the Kings I do have in the ground got nailed, and are looking a bit burnt up right now, so I’ve gotta have some kind of canopy, and Queens seem to be the most logical choice given my predicament. I wish I could mass plant so the planting density works in my favor but of course I only have so much time and $$. I need a (few) clones of me.

Edited March 5, 2021 by ExperimentalGrower

[James B]

30 minutes ago, enigma99 said:

 

 

 

James, here is one out in the open. It does get super hot here, lots of 100s in the summer, occasionally a 110.  It does get shade after 2PM though, but still, a day of full sun at noon at 100 degrees is still pretty dang hot. It's always got lots of water and stays wet so maybe that has helped.

Looks good! I have a triple Cunninghamiana and 3 A.Beatriceae which get all day sun in the summer from probably 8am-5pm and they put on height at about 12-16” a year. The Kings I have that get afternoon shade grow 2-3 ft per year with an A.Maxima that is about to break through the canopy of of older A.Beatriceae and Cunninghamiana this summer. Then I’ll see how it’s growth is impacted once it’s in full sun.  A lot of A.Maxima are mislabeled Alexandrae out there. I have 5 palms that were sold as A.Maxima but the one I know for sure is legit is the palm I speak of above. It blows away every other Archontophoenix in my yard.

[enigma99]

4 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Problem for me is, while most of the rest of the Bay Area sailed through this winter more or less frost free my neighborhood got hit pretty good, and the Kings I do have in the ground got nailed, and are looking a bit burnt up right now, so I’ve gotta have some kind of canopy, and Queens seem to be the most logical choice given my predicament. I wish I could mass plant so the planting density works in my favor but of course I only have so much time and $$. I need a (few) clones of me.

Really? Maybe you're in a hole. I am a bit surprised actually. A lot areas only got to the mid 30s this winter. My extreme low was 32F for a few minutes, once. If yours got roasted on an easy year, you'll definitely need to plan for the colder years.

Edited March 5, 2021 by enigma99

[Ben in Norcal]

Agreed - the bananas stayed up here, out in the open.

[ExperimentalGrower]

Just now, enigma99 said:

Really? Maybe you're in a hole. I am a bit surprised actually. A lot areas including mine only got to the mid 30s this winter. My extreme low was 32F for a few minutes, once.

Ya I’m in a wide sloping valley at the bottom of a set of NW to SE running hills, so although the tops of the hills are officially USDA ‘10a’, my being in this valley below these hills puts me firmly into 9b territory, less than 10 blocks away. Saw the lowest official temps hit 28.6F with light frost January 26th during an advective freeze event from a cold front that came down and clipped us. Some of the surrounding areas didn’t even see it drop below 32F. It’s usually 3-4 degrees colder at my house than the official Vallejo temp. But that also means it’s 3-4 degrees hotter here during the summer also do to the valley heat build up effect. So trying to figure out how to make that last bit work to my advantage. Only owned the home for a year so just starting to figure out this particular microclimate.

[ExperimentalGrower]

4 minutes ago, Ben in Norcal said:

Agreed - the bananas stayed up here, out in the open.

Interestingly, bananas in my neighborhood stayed up through last winter so even here last winter it didn’t drop below freezing. This year seemed to have a particularly large number of clear frigid nights. 

[Jim in Los Altos]

Most of my Archontophoenix are clustered in groves, very close together, and have done really well that way. Some are in singles too and have also done well. If they’re in a happy environment, they just do well no matter what as long as you give them all the water they want. It stayed above 40°F here all winter except for one slide to 39° late in January. 

[James B]

My yard is strangely 10a on the western half and 9B on the Eastern half.

Lowest it hit on the west side was 32 two maybe three times this winter.

The East side got it much worse. Hit 29 twice and 32 probably 4 or 5 nights. 

[ExperimentalGrower]

14 minutes ago, James B said:

My yard is strangely 10a on the western half and 9B on the Eastern half.

Lowest it hit on the west side was 32 two maybe three times this winter.

The East side got it much worse. Hit 29 twice and 32 probably 4 or 5 nights. 

That makes sense given exposure to sun/sea.

[James B]

Inspired by Jim in Los Altos and DoomsDave I have a section on in my backyard that is much more of a jungle environment where I have large amounts of Archontophoenix close together(cannot get all of them in one shot) these are the happiest Kings in my yard. I have 18 planted in a section that is 20 feet wide by 6 feet deep.

Edited March 6, 2021 by James B

[DoomsDave]

@ExperimentalGrower great thread!

This one of those discussions that’s much more nuanced and subtle than it seems as the various responses show.

[BigWaveDav3]

I hope mine look that good someday!

[ExperimentalGrower]

2 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

@ExperimentalGrower great thread!

This one of those discussions that’s much more nuanced and subtle than it seems as the various responses show.

Agreed, very educational!

[EastBayPalms]

12 hours ago, ExperimentalGrower said:

Problem for me is, while most of the rest of the Bay Area sailed through this winter more or less frost free my neighborhood got hit pretty good, and the Kings I do have in the ground got nailed, and are looking a bit burnt up right now, so I’ve gotta have some kind of canopy, and Queens seem to be the most logical choice given my predicament. I wish I could mass plant so the planting density works in my favor but of course I only have so much time and $$. I need a (few) clones of me.

I'm not too far from you and we had one night of 32 degrees, odd that you got hit being closer to the water.  There a lot of Queens here in Walnut Creek, they seem to do well,  though we're about 6-7 degrees warmer in July/Aug in the afternoon.  

[ExperimentalGrower]

40 minutes ago, EastBayPalms said:

I'm not too far from you and we had one night of 32 degrees, odd that you got hit being closer to the water.  There a lot of Queens here in Walnut Creek, they seem to do well,  though we're about 6-7 degrees warmer in July/Aug in the afternoon.  

It’s all about my specific geography, cold just concentrates in my neighborhood being at the bottom of these hills down in this valley. Surprised me this winter when it got that low compared to surrounding areas, which is why I didn’t bother to protect the Kings. Lesson learned!

[James B]

Micro-climates are very real even within our specific yards. Here is an example in the image. 2 of my zones are 4 and 5 degrees warmer than my zone on the East side of my house. Unfortunately I planted a 20 gal Dypsis Prestoniana on the East side that is struggling as a result of it having several nights below freezing. Whereas the West side only hit freezing twice and did not drop below 32. Will not be planting any more Dypsis on the East side as a result aside from the more cold hardy clumping types. Since most Archontophoenix can survive down to 25, no issues in any part of my yard.