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Miami Cancels Palm trees!


palmnut-fry

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6 minutes ago, palmnut-fry said:

Saw this article on Flipboard today! Interesting that they compare water rates with the typical Sabal!

https://flip.it/mMplht

As much as I love palms I also get this from a practicality perspective.  Part of why I love my neighborhood in AZ is that we’re in an oasis, so we have a full tree canopy in the summer.  Even when it is 118-120, my kids are still outside playing - albeit quite literally with a gallon of water.  The shade makes it all possible.  They also only play on the shady streets when days are that hot.

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10 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

As much as I love palms I also get this from a practicality perspective.  Part of why I love my neighborhood in AZ is that we’re in an oasis, so we have a full tree canopy in the summer.  Even when it is 118-120, my kids are still outside playing - albeit quite literally with a gallon of water.  The shade makes it all possible.  They also only play on the shady streets when days are that hot.

It won't make as much of a difference there. The humidity negates a lot of the benefit of shade. I visited two years ago in May, and there was a decent rainstorm. After it cleared up we went to Little Havana for Thai food and had to wait outside in line for thirty minutes or so. I was amazed by how much water pooled in the streets and even the sidewalk in some spots. It probably wasn't  much more humid than here, but it was pretty intolerable. And this was at night!

Also funny how they mention "oak, ash, elm and sycamore." Ash, elm or sycamore in Miami? Hopefully they steer clear of live oaks too.

 

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12 hours ago, palmnut-fry said:

Saw this article on Flipboard today! Interesting that they compare water rates with the typical Sabal!

https://flip.it/mMplht

they compare a live oak with a Single sabal palmetto?  I think the choice would be 1 live oak or 6-7 sabal palmetto in canopy.  And sabal palmettos are marginal for shade in groups of less than 3.  There are lies damn lies and statistics.  Some places you might say 3 trees need more water, I dont think that is an issue in miami witht the rain, and possibly it will take 3-4 sabals to drink as much as one live oak.  One of the problems with live oak?  They fall down in hurricanes and need big bucks to trim.  I have no need for a live oak myself as not much will grow underneath them, soil errosion is going to be an issue.   In our community trails, the live oak roots are above ground now tripping people on our community trails, hazardous for the older population.  All I have to do is walk around my 15 year old neighborhood and check out the live oak, the most common landscaping tree.  When trimmed by an aborist, they look pretty good.  Otherwise when left without that frequent trimming, they look like crap with lots of tiny branches in a "brillo pad structure", vertically stunted.   Miami ill need to bring the annual trimming money, they will need it.  Also under those live oak, there is mostly dead grass(bare ground) and struggling plants, not pretty.  I love our natural live oak stands, they are deep shady places of hundreds of trees where little light gets in so the bottom branches atrophy and die off, no trimming needed!  The spanish moss eventually kills them if not removed but it looks beautiful.  Our natural oak stands are interspersed with sabal palmetto and serenoa repens, gorgeous.  But if you plant them out in the open, not in a dark forest, they grow too many little branches and need the constant attention of an aborist to make them structurally healthy as the natural darkness of an oak stand is not a factor.  Any arborist will tell you too many branches is a bad thing, too much energy on little branches that compete for sunlight.  The landscape oaks need to be thinned almost annually when less than 25 years old if they are out in the open.  The "climate calculation" is biased by the tree by tree comparison.  Another way to manipulate people is by a non equivalent comparison like this.  In  arizona the desert tree canopies replaced xeroscape as the goal, save lots of water that is baked out by the sun, and it reduces the AC bill 100/month if you plant them to the west.  Live oak are not so useful there, you need to keep them away from your house as they are slab crackers, invasive and will damage concrete or other hardscape.   

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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2 hours ago, necturus said:

It won't make as much of a difference there. The humidity negates a lot of the benefit of shade. I visited two years ago in May, and there was a decent rainstorm. After it cleared up we went to Little Havana for Thai food and had to wait outside in line for thirty minutes or so. I was amazed by how much water pooled in the streets and even the sidewalk in some spots. It probably wasn't  much more humid than here, but it was pretty intolerable. And this was at night!

Also funny how they mention "oak, ash, elm and sycamore." Ash, elm or sycamore in Miami? Hopefully they steer clear of live oaks too.

 

yeah the elm is our second most used landscape tree, they are not well suited to florida, pretty much look like trash in my area, 1/4 of them are dead after 15 years, waiting for the removal($).  I seriously doubt they will like miami as well.

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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2 hours ago, necturus said:

It won't make as much of a difference there. The humidity negates a lot of the benefit of shade. I visited two years ago in May, and there was a decent rainstorm. After it cleared up we went to Little Havana for Thai food and had to wait outside in line for thirty minutes or so. I was amazed by how much water pooled in the streets and even the sidewalk in some spots. It probably wasn't  much more humid than here, but it was pretty intolerable. And this was at night!

Also funny how they mention "oak, ash, elm and sycamore." Ash, elm or sycamore in Miami? Hopefully they steer clear of live oaks too.

 

Fraxinus uhdei is great in heat and doesn't get a sunscalded trunk, as far as Ashes go.  Only Sycamore I could think of that would do good there is Platanus wrightii - because you see them here in the low desert quite frequently and they do great in 115+ weather over summer.  They basically need all of the available water on planet earth per tree, though.  I also don't think either species evolved to weather hurricanes! 

These seem like strange species selected for shade in Miami.

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And here I thought only LA goes all wiggy over palms.

Don't these people know elm trees were ravaged by Dutch elm disease? My bet is these transplanted Yankees don't realize their precious Northern avenue trees are totally unsuited to life in Miami. Those grand, beautiful trees need cold winters and to go dormant for X days/hours of chill to survive. Palms may slow their growth in cooler weather but they don't go dormant. This issue comes up periodically in Miami whenever the influx of transplanted Yankees reaches a tipping point.

BTW, I am a transplanted Yankee because to a native Floridian, everyone from north of the GA line is a Yankee. I've just got 28 years residency here to see other transplanted Yankees go all stupid trying to make FL remind them of home.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Just now, PalmatierMeg said:

And here I thought only LA goes all wiggy over palms.

Don't these people know elm trees were ravaged by Dutch elm disease? My bet is these transplanted Yankees don't realize their precious Northern avenue trees are totally unsuited to life in Miami. Those grand, beautiful trees need cold winters and to go dormant for X days/hours of chill to survive. Palms may slow their growth in cooler weather but they don't go dormant. This issue comes up periodically in Miami whenever the influx of transplanted Yankees reaches a tipping point.

BTW, I am a transplanted Yankee because to a native Floridian, everyone from north of the GA line is a Yankee. I've just got 28 years residency here to see other transplanted Yankees go all stupid trying to make FL remind them of home.

You see this same behavior in Arizona.  People who want lush, green lawns but whose yards are nearly 100% sand and caliche will plant things like apple trees and then wonder why they're dying.

I think they should plant Banyan trees.  They're great for the small spaces in road medians and the little squares in sidewalks... :innocent:

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1 minute ago, ahosey01 said:

You see this same behavior in Arizona.  People who want lush, green lawns but whose yards are nearly 100% sand and caliche will plant things like apple trees and then wonder why they're dying.

I think they should plant Banyan trees.  They're great for the small spaces in road medians and the little squares in sidewalks... :innocent:

 

4 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

And here I thought only LA goes all wiggy over palms.

Don't these people know elm trees were ravaged by Dutch elm disease? My bet is these transplanted Yankees don't realize their precious Northern avenue trees are totally unsuited to life in Miami. Those grand, beautiful trees need cold winters and to go dormant for X days/hours of chill to survive. Palms may slow their growth in cooler weather but they don't go dormant. This issue comes up periodically in Miami whenever the influx of transplanted Yankees reaches a tipping point.

BTW, I am a transplanted Yankee because to a native Floridian, everyone from north of the GA line is a Yankee. I've just got 28 years residency here to see other transplanted Yankees go all stupid trying to make FL remind them of home.

If they want northern trees, why couldn't they just move to a colder climate than Miami, like Atlanta or Spartanburg.

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Nothing to say here. 

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1 minute ago, ahosey01 said:

You see this same behavior in Arizona.  People who want lush, green lawns but whose yards are nearly 100% sand and caliche will plant things like apple trees and then wonder why they're dying.

I think they should plant Banyan trees.  They're great for the small spaces in road medians and the little squares in sidewalks... :innocent:

Ha! Back in the day you best not remind my native Californian parents how their homeland was destroyed by non-Californian transplants from "Back East." Did you know people from "Back East" steal the best California produce for themselves and leave the dregs for Californians. It's true - gotta be! I heard it myself on a news report on a San Francisco TV station back in 1981.The prices of avocados and artichokes had soared to $1.00 for 10. Oh, the humanity!

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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If they want northern trees, why couldn't they just move to a colder climate than Miami, like Atlanta or Spartanburg.

Spartanburg?

I like your thinking.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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6 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

If they want northern trees, why couldn't they just move to a colder climate than Miami, like Atlanta or Spartanburg.

Spartanburg?

I like your thinking.

Or even Virginia Beach.

Nothing to say here. 

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7 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Fraxinus uhdei is great in heat and doesn't get a sunscalded trunk, as far as Ashes go.  Only Sycamore I could think of that would do good there is Platanus wrightii - because you see them here in the low desert quite frequently and they do great in 115+ weather over summer.  They basically need all of the available water on planet earth per tree, though.  I also don't think either species evolved to weather hurricanes! 

These seem like strange species selected for shade in Miami.

Forget P. wrightii in FL. Not adapted to the climate, no matter how much heat it might take here.. Not  doing so great in areas of the state where the water table has been dropping as it is.  Don't think even the eastern U.S. native P. occidentalis reaches further south than about central FL.

Don't feel sorry for anyone who'd willingly plant an evergreen Ash.. Horrible tree. Much better choices..

As far as the suggested choices made in the article... If they're going to do more shade trees, why aren't they looking over natives -first- vs. looking at the worst options possible - Temperate Eastern U.S./ European -type choices.

S. FL has several great natives that are adapted to the area ..and will withstand hurricanes, and look tropical.  Add in other native trees from the Caribbean Basin and..   Heck, Allspice, Pimenta dioica, is native there ( unless S. FL has bulldozed all of them, along with all of the other natives.. ) Plant a ton of those..

Whether in Fl. here, or back in CA. Will never understand what motivates some of the street tree choices made.. Numerous are among the worst possible, or at least are utilized for poorly thought out applications.

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1 minute ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Forget P. wrightii in FL. Not adapted to the climate, no matter how much heat it might take here.. Not  doing so great in areas of the state where the water table has been dropping as it is.  Don't think even the eastern U.S. native P. occidentalis reaches further south than about central FL.

Don't feel sorry for anyone who'd willingly plant an evergreen Ash.. Horrible tree. Much better choices..

As far as the suggested choices made in the article... If they're going to do more shade trees, why aren't they looking over natives -first- vs. looking at the worst options possible - Temperate Eastern U.S./ European -type choices.

S. FL has several great natives that are adapted to the area ..and will withstand hurricanes, and look tropical.  Add in other native trees from the Caribbean Basin and..   Heck, Allspice, Pimenta dioica, is native there ( unless S. FL has bulldozed all of them, along with all of the other natives.. ) Plant a ton of those..

Whether in Fl. here, or back in CA. Will never understand what motivates some of the street tree choices made.. Numerous are among the worst possible, or at least are utilized for poorly thought out applications.

I should be clear those were not my suggestions - merely the least likely to die that I could think of from their terrible list of options!! lol

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6 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I should be clear those were not my suggestions - merely the least likely to die that I could think of from their terrible list of options!! lol

True.. 
Unless tastes have changed a bit since, more than likely ( this was a big thing around Bradenton/Sarasota when i lived there, saw what some of the big landscape companies were requesting from where i worked )  suspect they'll be looking into stuff like Elms, Live Oak, Crape Myrtle:sick: - the typical types, not the better looking Tropical species, ..maybe " Shady Lady " Black Olive ( which actually would be one of the less horrible options )

South Florida should be the last place the first two trees are even though of when considering such projects..  Considering the Limestone Bedrock below that part of the state is like Swiss Cheese, wonder if these people have even considered how well  such options will tolerate the increasing effects of salt water infiltration into the water table -which is already happening- in the future there. 



 

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3 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

True.. 
Unless tastes have changed a bit since, more than likely ( this was a big thing around Bradenton/Sarasota when i lived there, saw what some of the big landscape companies were requesting from where i worked )  suspect they'll be looking into stuff like Elms, Live Oak, Crape Myrtle:sick: - the typical types, not the better looking Tropical species, ..maybe " Shady Lady " Black Olive ( which actually would be one of the less horrible options )

South Florida should be the last place the first two trees are even though of when considering such projects..  Considering the Limestone Bedrock below that part of the state is like Swiss Cheese, wonder if these people have even considered how well  such options will tolerate the increasing effects of salt water infiltration into the water table -which is already happening- in the future there. 



 

If they're insistent on not planting natives, then I think that some of the North Queensland / Papua / New Caledonia species of Agathis could do well.

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2 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

If they're insistent on not planting natives, then I think that some of the North Queensland / Papua / New Caledonia species of Agathis could do well.

In parks, maybe.. Not a good, general street tree option however.  Would get too big for many smaller applications.  Honestly, if whomever is responsible for putting together such a list isn't considering native options,  -before anything else-,  they should be fired.

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20 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

In parks, maybe.. Not a good, general street tree option however.  Would get too big for many smaller applications.  Honestly, if whomever is responsible for putting together such a list isn't considering native options,  -before anything else-,  they should be fired.

Amen. Funny thing is that no one's going to be living on Miami Beach in 20-30 years. Rising sea level, intensified effects of storms and storm surges, continued movement of the barrier island sand on which the city sits, and saltwater intrusion into Miami-Dade County's freshwater aquifer will render the island of my birth uninhabitable. 

Some of you may be laughing at my doomsday scenario, but I'd be willing to bet all my money on it. Miami Beach: ground zero for the effects of climate change in the Southeastern U.S. 

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Just now, hbernstein said:

Amen. Funny thing is that no one's going to be living on Miami Beach in 20-30 years. Rising sea level, intensified effects of storms and storm surges, continued movement of the barrier island sand on which the city sits, and saltwater intrusion into Miami-Dade County's freshwater aquifer will render the island of my birth uninhabitable. 

Some of you may be laughing at my doomsday scenario, but I'd be willing to bet all my money on it. Miami Beach: ground zero for the effects of climate change in the Southeastern U.S. 

Agree.. I'd seen an article recently discussing what -if anything- could be done to stop the gradual infiltration of salt water into the aquifer in/near Miami.. On top of what is already being seen w/ increasing flooding during high tide/ storm-related events.. Pretty eye opening, especially considering many people seem oblivious to the overall situation.

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1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Ha! Back in the day you best not remind my native Californian parents how their homeland was destroyed by non-Californian transplants from "Back East." Did you know people from "Back East" steal the best California produce for themselves and leave the dregs for Californians. It's true - gotta be! I heard it myself on a news report on a San Francisco TV station back in 1981.The prices of avocados and artichokes had soared to $1.00 for 10. Oh, the humanity!

Meg I lived in california working for 7 years(3 in socal orange county, 4 in norcal bay area), best prduce Ive ever had by country mile.  I also lived in the NE for 33 years, produce was OK.  But the sweet cherries, blueberries, blackberries, rasberries to name a few were outstanding, best I've ever had and they were available for a good part of the year.  California has lots of undesirable aspects to living there, but produce is a sure winner as is seafood in general.  And both I found reasonably priced, especially fruit.  Ripe sweet cherries are $0.99-1.99 /lb in season and plentiful, I never ate so many.  Here in florida they are ok, just not that great flavor and sweetness of california cherry.  All the berries are excellent with multiple harvests.  In florida we probably ship our best oranges to other states at a high markup.  A 7 dollar bottle of wine there costs 11-12 a bottle here.  Food in california is the best I've ever had, including restaurant food.  The ethnic foods and blends are fantastic.  I struggle to find a good tai, vietnamese, indian, or korean restaurant here in the tampa area.  Out there if it has customers, its going to be fabulous.  That said, I wish those palm hating yankees would go home to the northeast. 

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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17 minutes ago, hbernstein said:

Amen. Funny thing is that no one's going to be living on Miami Beach in 20-30 years. Rising sea level, intensified effects of storms and storm surges, continued movement of the barrier island sand on which the city sits, and saltwater intrusion into Miami-Dade County's freshwater aquifer will render the island of my birth uninhabitable. 

Some of you may be laughing at my doomsday scenario, but I'd be willing to bet all my money on it. Miami Beach: ground zero for the effects of climate change in the Southeastern U.S. 

I don't know if I agree with this.  Environmental factors will certainly change and depending on your worldview, will make things less or more hospitable.  I'm explicitly not taking a position on that.

But also - consider that the cradle of human civilization is in a valley where it's like 118F all the time with no natural shade, and people seem to thrive equally well in Yakutsk where it's -60F all the time.  As a species, we seem to find a way.  We'll have to revisit in a couple decades!

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21 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

I don't know if I agree with this.  Environmental factors will certainly change and depending on your worldview, will make things less or more hospitable.  I'm explicitly not taking a position on that.

But also - consider that the cradle of human civilization is in a valley where it's like 118F all the time with no natural shade, and people seem to thrive equally well in Yakutsk where it's -60F all the time.  As a species, we seem to find a way.  We'll have to revisit in a couple decades!

Agreed. If it's a question of resources or survivability, some people seem to find a way. Cheap energy sources in the past hundred years mitigated many conditions that were environmental deal-killers. Some people might enjoy living in stormproof buildings on pilings in a shallow sea.  In the medium-term future, they're going to have an abundance of that sort of real estate to choose from on the southern third of the Florida peninsula. Large-scale power generation and supplies of freshwater would be more problematic. I don't think that Miami Beach will be surviving as a city. There won't be any compelling reason to stay, palms or no palms. 

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21 minutes ago, hbernstein said:

Agreed. If it's a question of resources or survivability, some people seem to find a way. Cheap energy sources in the past hundred years mitigated many conditions that were environmental deal-killers. Some people might enjoy living in stormproof buildings on pilings in a shallow sea.  In the medium-term future, they're going to have an abundance of that sort of real estate to choose from on the southern third of the Florida peninsula. Large-scale power generation and supplies of freshwater would be more problematic. I don't think that Miami Beach will be surviving as a city. There won't be any compelling reason to stay, palms or no palms. 

Maybe everyone will pick up and move to Belle Glade. lol

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I know they are "overplanted" but I like the look of 'Shady Lady' black olive.  Afaik, they are pretty much perfectly adapted to Miami. Should plant more of those! And other well adapted/native tropical hammock species like mahogany, buttonwood, ironwood, gumbo limbo etc. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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 Neils Bohr:   “It is very hard to predict, especially the future.”   

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Same issues out this way.  All the people (myself included) who have moved West over the last 100+ years brought all their trees and plants with them.   Heck they were so original they named the place after Portland Maine, with the other option being Boston!   The trees are totally unsuited to our climate in summer and look like crap 2/3 of the time.  If I see another maple tree I'm gonna puke (aside from the 2 natives).  The climate is Mediterranean so we get almost no rain for months on end, which is totally unsuited for Eastern Deciduous species where summer watering is a requirement.

Slowly there is a push to more drought adapted plants and trees here.  I know that I have embraced it and have seen fantastic results with little work on my part.

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BLASPHEMOUS!!!

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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

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On 3/1/2021 at 2:51 PM, Xenon said:

I know they are "overplanted" but I like the look of 'Shady Lady' black olive.  Afaik, they are pretty much perfectly adapted to Miami. Should plant more of those! And other well adapted/native tropical hammock species like mahogany, buttonwood, ironwood, gumbo limbo etc. 

Yeah, but the losers who are replacing the palms with oaks probably know nothing about those trees.

Nothing to say here. 

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