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Palm Collection Before and After The Great Texas Freeze of 5F in 2021

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amh
32 minutes ago, mnorell said:

Mid-March is the leaf-swap time in the south, at least I know in Natchez, Mississippi it is...so hopefully it will quickly become apparent what is dead vs. alive. We would always lose the leaves about the 15th of March in Natchez, and by the first of April the new leaves were expanded pretty much completely. One question I have about Quercus virginiana...if these trees have defoliated or lost limbs throughout Texas where single digits were experienced (I know that large limbs in Natchez were lost after 4F in the Christmas ice storm of 1989)...don't they take those temperatures regularly in the northernmost extremes of their range? I wonder if there is a cold-hardier genetic strain? Though I just looked on Wikipedia and it mentions that in Central Texas and Oklahoma there is a closely related live oak, the "Escarpment Live Oak" or "Texas Live Oak," Quercus fusiformis, of somewhat similar appearance and much greater cold-hardiness; and that the two hybridize readily. I had never heard about that one. Can anyone comment on the way these two species are used in Texas and whether they did show great differences in response to the cold; and to the similarities/differences between these two, and any info regarding the hybrids?

I only have Quercus fusiformis, but some of my trees are over 200 years old, so they have endured worse conditions. The leaves burned and are falling, but this week is when they naturally drop their leaves.

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mnorell

Wow that’s very interesting, I had never heard of that species. Supposedly native into Oklahoma so it must be quite hardy?

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PricklyPearSATC
On 3/7/2021 at 5:34 PM, mnorell said:

Wow that’s very interesting, I had never heard of that species. Supposedly native into Oklahoma so it must be quite hardy?

I personally can't tell if the difference between the plants are habitat or genetics.  We have escarpment live oak here.  
Our oaks have twisted trunks, more gnarly growth, smaller leaves, and not as large.  But it is also fairly dry here. 
People plant southern live oak here and it does fine.  Southern live oaks here don't grow the way they grow in Houston....They attain the size of escarpment live oaks....

https://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=2088&frontpage=true

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Collectorpalms
On 3/7/2021 at 5:34 PM, mnorell said:

Wow that’s very interesting, I had never heard of that species. Supposedly native into Oklahoma so it must be quite hardy?

There is a difference in the two. You can tell by the shape of the acorn, and shape of the tree. I refer to the oak in my front yard as a southern live oak. It has round acorns, and overall shape of tree is round as well.
Texas live oak has pointy football shape acorns and the shape of the tree is eventually more wide than tall.

My southern live oak never seems to replace all of the leaves. It does a partial, not 100 percent replacement in spring. 

Nevertheless, mine has dropped most leaves. A lot of the Bryan, Tx ones look bad because they have retained the brown leaves and Not dropped them yet.
 

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Collectorpalms
On 3/7/2021 at 5:34 PM, mnorell said:

Wow that’s very interesting, I had never heard of that species. Supposedly native into Oklahoma so it must be quite hardy?

There is a difference in the two. You can tell by the shape of the acorn, and shape of the tree. I refer to the oak in my front yard as a southern live oak. It has round acorns, and overall shape of tree is round as well.
Texas live oak has pointy football shape acorns and the shape of the tree is eventually more wide than tall.

My southern live oak never seems to replace all of the leaves. It does a partial, not 100 percent replacement in spring. 

Nevertheless, mine has dropped most leaves. A lot of the Bryan, Tx ones look bad because they have retained the brown leaves and Not dropped them yet.
 

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mnorell

Very interesting reading about those two species and the "hybrid swarm" that exists at their juncture along the Brazos River.  Perhaps a little like some of the Syagrus hybrids that occur in Brazil where species coexist/overlap.  And amazing that it's drought-hardy enough that its natural distribution extends west all the way to Pecos County (Fort Stockton gets only about 13" of rain per year!) Aside from the differences in acorn shape/size, I thing it would be interesting to take one of those trees and plant it in humid, rainy Louisiana, to compare its growth with Q. virginiana under those conditions.

There are a number of species that taxonomists/botanists argue over in terms of species status vs. growth adaptation to different climatic/geologic zones in these same sunbelt areas of the USA and adjacent Mexico/Caribbean, such as the various Sabal and their intergraded progeny, some of which have produced stable genetic lines. We have two houses, one in Rancho Mirage, CA (Sonoran Desert) and the other in Big Pine Key, FL (Florida Keys); and both regions lie within the range of Acacia/Vachelia farnesiana. The trees in the Sonoran Desert (sometimes previously referred to as Acacia smallii) are fairly large and quite cold-hardy; the variety in the Florida Keys (v. pinetorum) is generally the size of a large shrub but otherwise seems the same save for extreme frost-tenderness. Also, Tecoma stans in the southwest (Arizona to West Texas) is a fine-leafed shrub with the same famous flower-show as the main species form...then as it gets Gulf influence and heads eastward/southward through the Rio Grande Valley, Mexico and out through and past SoFla and the Keys, into the Antilles/Caribbean basin, it becomes a lush, full-leafed plant. In this case the Sonoran-Chihuahuan form gets varietal status (v. angustata). Sometimes things don't fit neatly into drawers...

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Collectorpalms

Spring Break update:

The Bad, looking likely not to survive:

Large 25FT Queen And small Bismarckia, never had a chance. 

Butia hybrids that I protected have spear pull. Medium ones no movement no spear pull. Taller ones, too tall to protect crowns starting to lean over. That’s a big shame.

Braheas have had spear pull or no movement. Some protected some not.

Livistonia most non spear pull, no movement. Not protected. Up to 12Ft tall.

Green Mediterranean palms. All Brown no spear pull or movement. Not protected. Over 5ft of single trunks.

Date Palms. No movement, all too tall to really check so far. 10-35Ft tall. Still hoping with these however. Costly to remove.

Washingtonia Filifera hybrids, crowns all Collapsed. 20-30Ft tall. Several. Thick trunked ones too. Costly to remove.
Washingtonia Robusta, crowns all collapsed. However 1 out of a dozen may be moving Or it’s an illusion. 20 -35ft tall. Costly to remove.

Various Rhapsis, Arenga, Chamadorea. Burnt to ground.

The Better:

Sabal Palmetto, Sabal Mexicana, Sabal Uresana ( blue green less hardy one), Sabal Bermudana. All fried at varying degree, but moving. Different ages and sizes. 

Washingtonia Filifera: All seem to alive, fried, but green just now visible on most. Average 15ft tall.

Needles, some have fried spears. Green leaves.

Minors and Sabal Louisiana. No issues. All green. 
 

Out of around 100 plus palms. May be 70+ percent loss. Only 9 unique species, plus 2 small chameadorea protected remaining.

Other plants mostly fried and have not broken dormancy. One orange bird of paradise, has started to grow. 
 

Thanks.

 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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PricklyPearSATC
2 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

.

One orange bird of paradise, has started to grow. 
 

Thanks.

 

Did you protect it?  I thought it was like a 9b ish type plant.  They never seem to last very long down here.

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Collectorpalms

No, I didn’t. There are two small clumps at the SW base of the Phoenix sylvestris. They flower. The white bird of paradise never flowers, but the orange does, it needs a lot of sun to flower well. They don’t really need to flower for me, it is just a bonus, they just are tropical foliage that seems to only burn at 25F. ( which most years I do not) And they are protected from frost. unlike bananas or elephant ears that burn at freezing. They also tolerate my high sodium city water.

From now on if I ever see the orange on sale I’ll be sure to buy them.
 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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PricklyPearSATC
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

No, I didn’t. There are two small clumps at the SW base of the Phoenix sylvestris. They flower. The white bird of paradise never flowers, but the orange does, it needs a lot of sun to flower well. They don’t really need to flower for me, it is just a bonus, they just are tropical foliage that seems to only burn at 25F. ( which most years I do not) And they are protected from frost. unlike bananas or elephant ears that burn at freezing. They also tolerate my high sodium city water.

From now on if I ever see the orange on sale I’ll be sure to buy them.
 

I have a sunny spot that is too dry for cannas. Maybe I will try them. 
Can you believe that I have killed plenty of cannas?

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GregVirginia7

Overall...how did the Sabal Brazorias do post freeze? Did they hold out as a survivor?

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PricklyPearSATC
37 minutes ago, GregVirginia7 said:

Overall...how did the Sabal Brazorias do post freeze? Did they hold out as a survivor?

Mine is fine.  No damage.
Sabal Mexicana and Palmetto have some damage around town, but it is mostly cosmetic.

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TexasColdHardyPalms

-3 sabal brazoria minor damage

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Collectorpalms

Pulled out a saw to trunk cut some palms: so far..,,Dead (bxj)xQ the whole meristem eventually came out. It was clean with no rot or fungus. I had used hydrogen peroxide.

Dead. Brahea super silver. Spear pulled over two week ago. No live tissue.

Trunk cut 5ft European fan palm. Cut back about 6 inches. This one the stem was slowly coming apart. I cut it to firm tissue. Wait and see on this one.

several more need to do but need better tool. Trunk fiber getting messy in the way of cutting.,Suggestions?

Edited by Collectorpalms

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Collectorpalms
On 3/14/2021 at 7:53 AM, GregVirginia7 said:

Overall...how did the Sabal Brazorias do post freeze? Did they hold out as a survivor?

Sabal brazoria planted 2007 from 5 gallon, seed personally collected from brazoria reserve. Hard to tell but 1-2Ft trunk.

0E18012F-4993-4246-AA59-29A6101A5D06.jpeg

DDDD5BC0-73AC-4ECC-8186-70D3C887D297.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms

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GregVirginia7
11 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

Sabal brazoria planted 2007 from 5 gallon, seed personally collected from brazoria reserve. Hard to tell but 1-2Ft trunk.

0E18012F-4993-4246-AA59-29A6101A5D06.jpeg

DDDD5BC0-73AC-4ECC-8186-70D3C887D297.jpeg

Yes...thank you...growing one in my backyard that had a rough start...working toward no protection except for polar invasions.

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Collectorpalms

Trunk pruned more palms. No miracles! The meristem came out of the jubaea x butia. It was pure white no rot, just shriveled. I thought this one had lived too....

No luck with another butia hybrid that looked like jxs this one I wrapped thickly and a Brahea Clara. Two all green meds feel less firm than the first one I had cut a couple days ago.

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Meangreen94z
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

Trunk pruned more palms. No miracles! The meristem came out of the jubaea x butia. It was pure white no rot, just shriveled. I thought this one had lived too....

No luck with another butia hybrid that looked like jxs this one I wrapped thickly and a Brahea Clara. Two all green meds feel less firm than the first one I had cut a couple days ago.

That stinks, I was hoping Jubaea x Butia was hardier than that. But youre not the first to say theirs was a loss

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UK_Palms

Sucks to hear about the Jubaea x Butia snuffing it, man. That's a gorgeous cross breed and a real loss. Do you think JxB is less hardy than both regular Jubaea and regular Butia, or somewhere in between the two, when it comes to hardiness?

Are there any pure Jubaea's that have survived in DFW and central Texas, or are they all toast as well? I have heard of Jubaea surviving 5F / -15C before and coming back, in both Chile and France. You would think that there's a few pure Jubaea's out there which may have survived the freeze...?

Likewise, are all the Butia's dead as well, or have some survived? I know they are less hardy than Jubaea and I have seen quite a few pictures of fried Texan Butia's doing the rounds, but there must be a couple of Butia's have pulled through. Individual hardiness is definitely a thing and you can't rule out the odd freak of nature specimen pulling through, somewhere...?

It doesn't sound good for the Med fans either. They are bulletproof for me here and I overwinter several of them in pots outdoors, which never take any damage. I thought they would maybe survive for you guys, but they were also cut back to ground level in France a few years back, after the trunks collapsed, following just two consecutive nights of 10F / -12C with daytime highs in the 25F / -3C range. I think some Cerifera's survived that event intact though.

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NBTX11

All the med fans around my location are showing green centers.  Haven't seen any that appeared outright dead.

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Fusca
2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Are there any pure Jubaea's that have survived

I thought this Jubaea seedling surviving 9° unprotected was pretty impressive!  I have seen W. filifera volunteer seedlings larger than this completely dead.  The green part on the right is the newest emerging spear.

IMG_20210325_180917.thumb.jpg.78e186e51c2b4ed7fb42738782688d00.jpg

Edited by Fusca
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Collectorpalms
7 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

Sucks to hear about the Jubaea x Butia snuffing it, man. That's a gorgeous cross breed and a real loss. Do you think JxB is less hardy than both regular Jubaea and regular Butia, or somewhere in between the two, when it comes to hardiness?

Are there any pure Jubaea's that have survived in DFW and central Texas, or are they all toast as well? I have heard of Jubaea surviving 5F / -15C before and coming back, in both Chile and France. You would think that there's a few pure Jubaea's out there which may have survived the freeze...?

Likewise, are all the Butia's dead as well, or have some survived? I know they are less hardy than Jubaea and I have seen quite a few pictures of fried Texan Butia's doing the rounds, but there must be a couple of Butia's have pulled through. Individual hardiness is definitely a thing and you can't rule out the odd freak of nature specimen pulling through, somewhere...?

It doesn't sound good for the Med fans either. They are bulletproof for me here and I overwinter several of them in pots outdoors, which never take any damage. I thought they would maybe survive for you guys, but they were also cut back to ground level in France a few years back, after the trunks collapsed, following just two consecutive nights of 10F / -12C with daytime highs in the 25F / -3C range. I think some Cerifera's survived that event intact though.

For Texas freezes the bigger the trunk the better chance it has. I think if my jubaea x butia had been bigger it would be hardier than butia. After the freeze it had some green leaves, unlike Butia. I am finding some Butia that look like they will make it. Those that were really heathy and had about 6ft of trunk and were fruiting size. I planted 8 at a friends. Only 1 has had spear pull so far. 5 have some green left in the spear. I have sprayed them with copper fungicide. Ultimately maybe 1 living I’d be happy with. There are some small jubaea in Texas, but only one that have full size trunks are owned by the guy who ones the one at the Dallas Aquarium. All others too too small to be compared fairly. I think had this been a quick 1989 freeze, 2 days not a prolonged week, a lot of things would be alive instead. I think this was too long for my Braheas. It just takes years to get a full size trunk. 
I think I still have hope for my Armata, and Dulcis, and a protected Aculeata that was getting large and I had wrapped well. 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Collectorpalms
5 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

All the med fans around my location are showing green centers.  Haven't seen any that appeared outright dead.

Important to note that you were 9F and had a brief thaw unlike Austin College Station. There were likely very dead ones like this one at Zilker in Austin and it was warmer there, but duration was longer.

3634A508-A950-4498-ADB5-424671B96E66.jpeg

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Swolte
19 hours ago, Collectorpalms said:

No luck with another butia hybrid that looked like jxs this one I wrapped thickly and a Brahea Clara.


Sorry to hear about your B. Clara. I had a small one (protected, no heat source) in a very exposed location that looked dead but after cutting the trunk to the 'no rot' spot, look what's been pushing since a week! (I constructed a small tent above it to keep it dry)

Haven't taken a close look at my JxB F1 yet but surely looks bad

B Clara.jpg

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Fusca

Also there seems to be quite a bit of variation in terms of cold hardiness with the green med fans and not just in appearance.  There are 2 commercially planted in front of a building near my work.  Probably 20' from each other in the same exposed condition and same size.  Obviously planted at the same time.  One is completely brown with no signs of life while the other is only about 60% damaged with plenty of green!

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Collectorpalms

I didn’t protect mine. I had to worry about Brahea that I assumed were less hardy., in fact I should have wrapped Them

all .... but that duration didn’t seemed to matter either wrapped or not..

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Swolte

Drove around today in the Knoll S Elementary school area in CS and was passing 4 large Washies. Noticed that the Filifera (hybrids) with the fatter trunk (of which there were 3) were pushing some green.  

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Teegurr
38 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Drove around today in the Knoll S Elementary school area in CS and was passing 4 large Washies. Noticed that the Filifera (hybrids) with the fatter trunk (of which there were 3) were pushing some green.  

I know those Washies! I'll have to check them out. They're some of the biggest in town!

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Collectorpalms
2 hours ago, Swolte said:

Drove around today in the Knoll S Elementary school area in CS and was passing 4 large Washies. Noticed that the Filifera (hybrids) with the fatter trunk (of which there were 3) were pushing some green.  

Streetview image? Thank you

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Swolte

I'll take some pics next time. I am not sure I can trace back my route as I was deliberately trying to get lost taking turns I normally don't. But yeah, Teegurr, there were some huge specimens in that area!! 

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Collectorpalms

My trunk cut Brahea Clara shows some hints of movement after 2 days. Also the first green med I trunk cut is showing growth from three days ago. Then my regular Brahea Armata has its spear pull this evening, so I will trunk cut that one now as well.

those that had spear pulls yesterday that were clean Had flying insects today. I went ahead and put another round of peroxide in them yesterday anyhow even though the whole thing by appears pulled. I Guess then they need to be hauled away quicker than a day or need bug spray.

Edited by Collectorpalms
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PricklyPearSATC

My Chinese Fan Palm is gonna survive...Unfortunately, it's in a dueling battle with sabal brazoria.     It was supposed to be temporary until the sabal looked big and leafy like yours.   Now they're both large.  Sabal Brazoria has 5 inch trunk.  Planted in as seedling from yuccado  in 2008.  Chinese Fan Palm has 2 ft trunk.  It gets tip burn in the low 20's.

My S Brazoria has lost a few fronds because of the freeze.  I'm seeing some S Mexicana on the interstate that may have been lost.  I'm seeing more freeze damage on the S Mexicana/palmettos than I did 2 weeks ago.  (Progression of damage) 

I'm also having landscape plants show more freeze damage than a few weeks ago.  My viburnums were putting out buds, but those buds are dying.  My pyracantha is growing, but not much.  Now it looks like I have serious damage to some of my loquats. . 

Edited by PricklyPearSATC
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amh
12 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

I'm also having landscape plants show more freeze damage than a few weeks ago.  My viburnums were putting out buds, but those buds are dying.  My pyracantha is growing, but not much.  Now it looks like I have serious damage to some of my loquats. . 

Same here. The neighbors 40+ year old pyracantha is dead, some trifoliate orange was killed to the roots and the loquats have severe damage to all growth that is less than a year old.The good news is that the loquats and pineapple guava are producing buds.

It still looks like most non pool adjacent palms in my area will not survive.

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NBTX11
18 hours ago, PricklyPearSATC said:

My Chinese Fan Palm is gonna survive...

Livistona? or Trachycarpus?  I've heard both referred to as Chinese fans.

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PricklyPearSATC
1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

Livistona? or Trachycarpus?  I've heard both referred to as Chinese fans.

Livistona - I sorta protected the bud, although I did a horrible job of protecting it.  It would have been better left alone. 

 

Edited by PricklyPearSATC
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Swolte
8 hours ago, amh said:

pineapple guava

Interesting, never considered planting these for reasons of hardiness but if they can survive this past winter! 

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amh
13 hours ago, Swolte said:

Interesting, never considered planting these for reasons of hardiness but if they can survive this past winter! 

I was hesitant for years and decided to grow a bunch from seed. There was total defoliation and some damage, but I dont think they evolved in areas that could get below 0 Fahrenheit.

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Collectorpalms

April 1 update:

Both large Canaries are showing green. Even two CIDP volunteers. The big one in front drive is my favorite. However that one may be in danger of removal.

my trunk cut success: ( growing new growth)

one green med

brahea Pimo

brahea Clara

brahea Armata

brahea Dulcis...

no success or not enough time: Livistonia and butia hybrids. 

Everglades has 6 new trunks starting.

one Chameadorea out from the ashes, while I protected went down hill.

not much else has changed for the better yet.  A lot more small trunk cuts coming.

trees lived mostly. 

 

 

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Collectorpalms

One of my Canaries has been resurrected!

C857541C-44DF-4893-9BB7-55B049839FF6.jpeg

24876077-12C8-4519-98D5-65C533235991.jpeg

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Collectorpalms

Two of my rather thin Washingtonia sp. have been resurrected! After official low of 5F. One was trying to grow out of the shadow of my Southern Live Oak, and to the left Phoenix Sylvestris.

Sorry weeding and mowing come later, first aid was most important.

A55B2328-8350-4728-9716-6E85241BCF37.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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