Palmageddon Aftermath Photo Thread

[heimerswt]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:57 PM, NBTX11 said:

Today I was able to spend about an hour in downtown San Antonio. By downtown, I mean inside the I-37, I-35, and Hwy 90 Loop. This is what I am reporting. There is virtually no, I repeat no Washingtonia death immediately downtown. Unless all have been removed, I saw 5 or less dead trunks in all of downtown. Granted, it’s possible that the city or private property owners removed some. However, it does appear that the Feb 21 freeze had little effect on Riverwalk, and immediate downtown Washingtonias, including thin hybrids. It virtually appears as it did prior to freeze. Let me stress that this is immediately downtown. Other areas of SA had a much greater percentage of Washingtonia killed, particularly thin ones. Most Filifera lived through out the city., including suburbs. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I know of one row that did not make it.  At the corner or Brooklyn & Alamo St, In front of Alamo Funeral Chapel (a coincidentally aptly named location for these previously healthy looking palms...)

I don't have a photo, but Streetvie w from March 2021 shows how badly they were burned.  I drove past this location in January of this year and they looked dead-dead.

 

[NBTX11]

17 minutes ago, heimerswt said:

Unfortunately, I know of one row that did not make it.  At the corner or Brooklyn & Alamo St, In front of Alamo Funeral Chapel (a coincidentally aptly named location for these previously healthy looking palms...)

I don't have a photo, but Streetvie w from March 2021 shows how badly they were burned.  I drove past this location in January of this year and they looked dead-dead.

 

Ok yeah some could have been cut down for sure. I just know I saw basically zero dead trunks downtown. Maybe all the dead ones have been removed?

[Xenon]

The 3 palms (especially the single one) in downtown San Antonio right up against tall buildings are impressive. Everything else looks mixed blood (imo) and not that surprising considering the temperatures. 

[NBTX11]

14 minutes ago, Xenon said:

The 3 palms (especially the single one) in downtown San Antonio right up against tall buildings are impressive. Everything else looks mixed blood (imo) and not that surprising considering the temperatures. 

Agree. Everything is mixed in SA almost. There were others actually that I didn’t photograph. I had limited time and was dodging traffic and you can’t really photograph while driving in downtown SA. This was just a very quick and limited snapshot 

Edited March 9, 2022 by NBTX11

[knikfar]

The low temp appears to have been 9f in San Antonio with three days not rising above freezing. That's cold, and I'm sure shockingly so for that area. But I think most of our NC palms would have survived that, mostly because so many of them did during our 2018 cold event. 

[NBTX11]

44 minutes ago, knikfar said:

The low temp appears to have been 9f in San Antonio with three days not rising above freezing. That's cold, and I'm sure shockingly so for that area. But I think most of our NC palms would have survived that, mostly because so many of them did during our 2018 cold event. 

9 was at the airport on the north (cold) side of town. I suspect the low downtown was around 12. I don’t have any data to back that up other than an educated guess. And yes this was a shockingly cold event. It hadn’t gotten anywhere near this cold in decades. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by NBTX11

[GoatLockerGuns]

55 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Maybe all the dead ones have been removed?

Concur.  There were many that were removed.  San Antonio if a tourist town, and the city/businesses are not going suffer a bunch of dead trunks sticking up around town for too long.  I have been driving that stretch of I-35/I-10 on the west side of Downtown back and forth to work since 2016.  There is a noticeable reduction in the number of tall Washingtonia sps. that I see popping up from the city skyline post-freeze.  Thankfully, as your photos show, there were still a good number that made it.  I am really impressed with how many did actually survive sustained wet conditions that dipped below 10F.  Here is shot from the Riverwalk I took in August of last year.  Hard to tell without zooming in, but it looks like there are (or were) four mature Washingtonia sps. in this picture, each with varying degrees of robusta-like traits; two look nice, but the other two clearly didn't make it.  What did the ones that made it have that the others did not?  Good genes?  Luck?  Who really knows.  Last time I went down there in December, I do not remember seeing these trunks, so, I am pretty sure they were cut down/removed.  I am actually surprised someone had enough patience to wait until at least August for them to recover.

[knikfar]

My advice to Texans, plant palms from North Carolina. If the parent plants can survive long term here, they should be bullet proof for  you. 

[NBTX11]

Ok then that makes sense. I was surprised. I saw no dead trunks downtown. None really. It makes sense some were cut down. But there are still a lot of washies on the skyline 

[GoatLockerGuns]

1 minute ago, knikfar said:

My advice to Texans, plant palms from North Carolina. If the parent plants can survive long term here, they should be bullet proof for  you.

You really want other people coming there and Bogarting your limited supply?

[NBTX11]

5 minutes ago, knikfar said:

My advice to Texans, plant palms from North Carolina. If the parent plants can survive long term here, they should be bullet proof for  you. 

We need tall Washingtonias. San Antonio and maybe Austin are about as far north as you can reasonably expect long term viability, outside of a massive cold outbreak like 2021. 

[knikfar]

1 minute ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

You really want other people coming there and Bogarting your limited supply?

We have plenty of sabals of all varieties, Bald Head Island, Brazieorensis, Birminghams, Minors, Chamaerops, Needles, butias, butia hybrids and Washingtonia Filibusta. I have all of these in my own yard here in Raleigh. Even here in Raleigh, there are landscape companies that specialize in palms. And our coastal communities are covered in palms. Check out Gary's Nursery in New Bern. 

 

[knikfar]

1 minute ago, NBTX11 said:

We need tall Washingtonias. San Antonio and maybe Austin are about as far north as you can reasonably expect long term viability, outside of a massive cold outbreak like 2021. 

Look up 944 Bragg Blvd, Fayetteville NC. You'll see a very tall Washingtonia, probably a Filibusta, that was planted sometime prior to 2007 and still looks great today. It made it through our 100 year cold event in 2018. Its seen multiple single digits and nobody ever protects it. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

8 minutes ago, knikfar said:

944 Bragg Blvd, Fayetteville NC.

Yeah, yeah, everyone on Palmtalk knows about that palm...I think @ZPalms might have been to one who made it famous. 

Its starting to gain mythical status on these boards.  I would like to see a picture of your Wahingtonia filibusta planted in Raleigh though.  That sounds rather impressive.

[knikfar]

2 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Yeah, yeah, everyone on Palmtalk knows about that palm...I think @ZPalms might have been to one who made it famous. 

Its starting to gain mythical status on these boards.  I would like to see a picture of your Wahingtonia filibusta planted in Raleigh though.  That sounds rather impressive.

My Raleigh Filibusta is just a seedling right now, grown from the mythical Washy in Fayetteville. It'll be a few years before its anything to look at, assuming I can get it to survive that long. But if it can survive in Fayetteville, it should do just fine in any of the larger cities in Texas. 

[NBTX11]

11 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Look up 944 Bragg Blvd, Fayetteville NC. You'll see a very tall Washingtonia, probably a Filibusta, that was planted sometime prior to 2007 and still looks great today. It made it through our 100 year cold event in 2018. Its seen multiple single digits and nobody ever protects it. 

I looked at it. Good looking palm and impressive for the zone and latitude. Definitely a hybrid. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

4 minutes ago, knikfar said:

My Raleigh Filibusta is just a seedling right now, grown from the mythical Washy in Fayetteville.

Safest bet for your wallet.  That is what I do; mostly seed grown in the yard. I got a bunch of Washingtonia filibusta seeds straight form the source last March:

I also grabbed a bunch of what appeared to be solid Washingtonia robusta seedlings growing from the base of an 80' plus tall specimen (aka a "sky duster") at the Hilton in Pasadena, California on another trip last April.  So, I am pretty set on the Washingtonia sps. front for now.  I will probably be planting some of them in the yard next March, once they have gained close to a foot of trunk.  I currently have three Washingtonia filifera specimens already planted, and one Washingtonia robusta.

[knikfar]

4 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Safest bet for your wallet.  That is what I do; mostly seed grown in the yard. I got a bunch of Washingtonia filibusta seeds straight form the source last March:

I also grabbed a bunch of what appeared to be solid Washingtonia robusta seedlings growing from the base of an 80' plus tall specimen (aka a "sky duster") at the Hilton in Pasadena, California on another trip last April.  So, I am pretty set on the Washingtonia sps. front for now.  I will probably be planting some of them in the yard next March, once they have gained close to a foot of trunk.  I currently have three Washingtonia filifera specimens already planted, and one Washingtonia robusta.

Exactly. And the seed germinates really easily. I must have collected 200 seeds from the ground around that Washy. I planted about 50 of them and almost every single one sprouted. 

[GoatLockerGuns]

14 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Exactly. And the seed germinates really easily. I must have collected 200 seeds from the ground around that Washy. I planted about 50 of them and almost every single one sprouted.

Yeah, near 100% germination is common with them.

[Collectorpalms]

55 minutes ago, knikfar said:

Look up 944 Bragg Blvd, Fayetteville NC. You'll see a very tall Washingtonia, probably a Filibusta, that was planted sometime prior to 2007 and still looks great today. It made it through our 100 year cold event in 2018. Its seen multiple single digits and nobody ever protects it. 

This palm is a great example of a great Microclimate, and proper siting, and a warm decade to give it an advantage. Yes, Its a nice hybrid Washingtonia, that looks to have a high degree of Filifera DNA that benefitted from being planted on the southwestern wall of a commercial building in a downtown microclimate. As a Meteorologist though, Ill have to disagree that 2018 was a 100 year event for Fayetteville NC. While the cold lasted several days, the ultimate official low at the airport was 9F. Between 1918 and 2018, the airport recorded 9f or lower 20 times. What I refer to as killing hours, the hours that cause actual damage to the palm ( so for a Pure Filifera 14F is a rough estimate) was only about 5 consecutive hours with it rebounding to near freezing for the high. Also at that time, wind which was a huge killer in Texas was a non factor. I didn't even check to see if there was snow/ or cloud cover during the day, The Sago pam nearby were not even killed, and the Sabal Palmettos did not even burn. Now an example of bad siting were the two butia on the north side of the building that died. They likely suffered the effects of duration of cold and not getting any sun to warm them up. That's my two cents worth.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[knikfar]

I’ll have to defer t

34 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

This palm is a great example of a great Microclimate, and proper siting, and a warm decade to give it an advantage. Yes, Its a nice hybrid Washingtonia, that looks to have a high degree of Filifera DNA that benefitted from being planted on the southwestern wall of a commercial building in a downtown microclimate. As a Meteorologist though, Ill have to disagree that 2018 was a 100 year event for Fayetteville NC. While the cold lasted several days, the ultimate official low at the airport was 9F. Between 1918 and 2018, the airport recorded 9f or lower 20 times. What I refer to as killing hours, the hours that cause actual damage to the palm ( so for a Pure Filifera 14F is a rough estimate) was only about 5 consecutive hours with it rebounding to near freezing for the high. Also at that time, wind which was a huge killer in Texas was a non factor. I didn't even check to see if there was snow/ or cloud cover during the day, The Sago pam nearby were not even killed, and the Sabal Palmettos did not even burn. Now an example of bad siting were the two butia on the north side of the building that died. They likely suffered the effects of duration of cold and not getting any sun to warm them up. That's my two cents worth.

ill have to defer to you on the 100 year cold event since that is your expertise. But my expertise is urban planning. And this palm is in no way, shape or form located in anybody’s downtown environment. It’s completely suburban and has a large cleared field behind it. The former commercial building, torn down over a year ago, was a single story. I’m sure it did a great job creating a warm microclimate while the palm was short enough to be completely sheltered by it. But that washy has been taller than a single story for years, leaving the crown and a good amount of its trunk completely exposed to wind and all kinds of weather. This winter alone, we’ve had three frozen precipitation events including one ice storm. I took a picture of it, and collected seed from it, after those events and it still looks great, no burn on its fronds. So microclimate or not, this has to be a hardier hybrid than most washys. At least hardy enough to survive for a few years in my Raleigh yard in a protected spot. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by knikfar

[Little Tex]

I Wanted to share some palms around my neighbor hood, there was a lot of survivors, Biggest hits were queens and washies.

Nice Sylvester probably 80% in my neighborhood surived

European Fans almost all survived except one

Only queen I have seen, Ill add pictures of the mules later

Dead queen with tracy in the back

LOTS Of CDIP

all survivors

Now washies

recovering..

.

didnt make it, and WOW!

1/3 volunteers made it!

dead

close one!

now pygmys, Light burn they were protected.

Foxtails are pushing green... (Newly Planted)

Final WASHIES!!!

[Collectorpalms]

27 minutes ago, knikfar said:

I’ll have to defer t

ill have to defer to you on the 100 year cold event since that is your expertise. But my expertise is urban planning. And this palm is in no way, shape or form located in anybody’s downtown environment. It’s completely suburban and has a large cleared field behind it. The former commercial building, torn down over a year ago, was a single story. I’m sure it did a great job creating a warm microclimate while the palm was short enough to be completely sheltered by it. But that washy has been taller than a single story for years, leaving the crown and a good amount of its trunk completely exposed to wind and all kinds of weather. This winter alone, we’ve had three frozen precipitation events including one ice storm. I took a picture of it, and collected seed from it, after those events and it still looks great, no burn on its fronds. So microclimate or not, this has to be a hardier hybrid than most washys. At least hardy enough to survive for a few years in my Raleigh yard in a protected spot. 

You say it’s not in a downtown environment. I disagree. I am not talking like Houston “Urban.” I am just referring to country versus town, with buildings and pavement that retain heat. 
I can look back at google maps it’s doesn’t lie. That removed building provided protection. Regardless of the empty lots a little further to the north.

I could stand next to my Filifera at night and feet heat radiate from their trunks. They are full of water like watermelons. 
Again I looked at the wind, it was a not factor. 
 

check out my map and location of the palm and try to tell me with a straight face that palm is in the rural country and had no microclimate. 

[Collectorpalms]

28 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

I Wanted to share some palms around my neighbor hood, there was a lot of survivors, Biggest hits were queens and washies.

Nice Sylvester probably 80% in my neighborhood surived

European Fans almost all survived except one

Only queen I have seen, Ill add pictures of the mules later

Dead queen with tracy in the back

LOTS Of CDIP

all survivors

Now washies

recovering..

.

didnt make it, and WOW!

1/3 volunteers made it!

dead

close one!

now pygmys, Light burn they were protected.

Foxtails are pushing green... (Newly Planted)

Final WASHIES!!!

 

Inner Houston and downtown San Antonio sure lucked out this time. Nothing as bad as the 1980s.  Yet, no lessons learned with newly planted Foxtails and Pygmys following a return to a normal winter, and they fried.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Little Tex]

5 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Inner Houston and downtown San Antonio sure lucked out this time. Nothing as bad as the 1980s.  Yet, no lessons learned with newly planted Foxtails and Pygmys following a return to a normal winter, and they fried.

I know... When I saw they planted those I was dissapointed, that was probably at least 4k of palms that could have been used better

[NBTX11]

How bad was the Washingtonia kill off in San Antonio in the 80's?  It appears there are pre-1980 Robusta in downtown San Antonio, and of course there are ancient Filifera everywhere.  

I'm guessing it was similar to 2021.  Or was it worse?  I wasn't here then.

[knikfar]

56 minutes ago, Little Tex said:

I Wanted to share some palms around my neighbor hood, there was a lot of survivors, Biggest hits were queens and washies.

Nice Sylvester probably 80% in my neighborhood surived

European Fans almost all survived except one

Only queen I have seen, Ill add pictures of the mules later

Dead queen with tracy in the back

LOTS Of CDIP

all survivors

Now washies

recovering..

.

didnt make it, and WOW!

1/3 volunteers made it!

dead

close one!

now pygmys, Light burn they were protected.

Foxtails are pushing green... (Newly Planted)

Final WASHIES!!!

Beautiful photos! Seeing all the surviving CIDP, I’m wondering if a CIDP x Butia x Jubaea hybrid might produce something super hardy. Assuming that combo is even possible 

[knikfar]

43 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

You say it’s not in a downtown environment. I disagree. I am not talking like Houston “Urban.” I am just referring to country versus town, with buildings and pavement that retain heat. 
I can look back at google maps it’s doesn’t lie. That removed building provided protection. Regardless of the empty lots a little further to the north.

I could stand next to my Filifera at night and feet heat radiate from their trunks. They are full of water like watermelons. 
Again I looked at the wind, it was a not factor. 
 

check out my map and location of the palm and try to tell me with a straight face that palm is in the rural country and had no microclimate. 

I didn’t say it was rural. I said it was suburban. Because the development pattern and density is suburban. And while suburban environments can be warmer than rural areas, they don’t have the extreme heat island affect like a downtown core does, even a small downtown core like Fayetteville has. And I actually admitted that building did provide a microclimate. But I also pointed out that a good portion of the palm was not shielded by it for years. And you can’t tell me that a wind/temperature/precipitation scenario hasn’t occurred in the life of this plant that would easily kill a washy. 

[Collectorpalms]

6 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

How bad was the Washingtonia kill off in San Antonio in the 80's?  It appears there are pre-1980 Robusta in downtown San Antonio, and of course there are ancient Filifera everywhere.  

I'm guessing it was similar to 2021.  Or was it worse?  I wasn't here then.

Take 1989 for example which was a quicker event but was 3F lower. 

Just as an example 24 hour low/high;

Dec 22, 1989 High San Antonio 23F
Dec 23, 1989 Low San Antonio 6F ( dew point was -11F)

24 Hour Average: 14.5F

____________________________________

Feb 15, 2021 Low San Antonio 9F ( dew point was +1F)

Feb 16, 2021 High San Antonio 26F

24 Hour Average: 17.5F

[Xenon]

41 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

How bad was the Washingtonia kill off in San Antonio in the 80's?  It appears there are pre-1980 Robusta in downtown San Antonio, and of course there are ancient Filifera everywhere.  

I'm guessing it was similar to 2021.  Or was it worse?  I wasn't here then.

I would seriously doubt the existence of any pre-80s robusta anywhere on the TX/Gulf/Atlantic south I-10 corridor. Maybe Galveston 

[Cade]

Canary island date palm that was burned today in Galveston 

 

 as for old Washingtonia Galveston definitely had some back then but most “big” ones have been wiped out back in 2008 because of hurricane Ike .

[Xenon]

FWIW, Houston Area had a below average winter (going by last 30 years), especially considering the duration of cold accompanied with frozen precipitation in many areas. The pygmies will be fine, they grow like weeds once it warms up. 

[Collectorpalms]

29 minutes ago, knikfar said:

I didn’t say it was rural. I said it was suburban. Because the development pattern and density is suburban. And while suburban environments can be warmer than rural areas, they don’t have the extreme heat island affect like a downtown core does, even a small downtown core like Fayetteville has. And I actually admitted that building did provide a microclimate. But I also pointed out that a good portion of the palm was not shielded by it for years. And you can’t tell me that a wind/temperature/precipitation scenario hasn’t occurred in the life of this plant that would easily kill a washy. 

This is a very good hybrid palm to try for the Southeast. I can tell just by looking at past years it is not a pure Filifera. It seems to burn around 17F or so. I have learned that pure Filifera did worse for me than pure Filifera due to the wet spring even after surviving 4F initially. However one of my hybrids that was very vigorous that would burn below 17F survived without any issues. Pure Filifera should not burn at 14F.

The most important key to getting these things to survive other than everything I have already mentioned is, getting them to a really big size. I had several Truth or Consequences Filifera robust 1 gallons that survived in their climate well below zero, die at 25F in a heavy frost because I was inexperienced. They really need to get to a foot wide before you call really put them to a test in zone 8a. I am in zone 8b/9a.

[Xenon]

I don't think there are any posters from Laredo, but it looks great on Google. Queens everywhere, seems like it fared much much better than Corpus. Previously there were some royals that survived all of the 2010s freezes and a few large blooming Delonix regia. 

[Collectorpalms]

27 minutes ago, Xenon said:

FWIW, Houston Area had a below average winter (going by last 30 years), especially considering the duration of cold accompanied with frozen precipitation in many areas. The pygmies will be fine, they grow like weeds once it warms up. 
 

Low was 27F for Houston Hobby this year. Out of last 30 years Hooby Houston has had 27F or below 10 times. With a mean of 25F. But if you look at last 60 years, I’d say it was a return to normal.
 

Cold Damage seemed a little rough here for only 20s. Most fried Sagos rarely happened at my house. So the freezing rain and wind was a significant factor. Not sure if 9b Houston had freezing precipitation. 
 

I hope a return to the Above normal consecutive winters…. But I am not so sure…..

Edited March 10, 2022 by Collectorpalms

[Xenon]

31 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

Low was 27F for Houston Hobby this year. Out of last 30 years Hooby Houston has had 27F or below 10 times. With a mean of 25F. But if you look at last 60 years, I’d say it was a return to normal.

Hobby has a mean rounded to 28F for 1992-2021. Same for 1990-2021. 

But yes the temp was not that bad, but duration took a toll. Two nights at 27F with 1.5 days spent hovering around freezing. A quick radiational dip to 27F hardly does any damage to the usual tender stuff, especially with overhead canopy. 

[Collectorpalms]

8 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Hobby has a mean rounded to 28F for 1992-2021. Same for 1990-2021. 

But yes the temp was not that bad, but duration took a toll. Two nights at 27F with 1.5 days spent hovering around freezing. A quick radiational dip to 27F hardly does any damage to the usual tender stuff, especially with overhead canopy. 

Ok Mr. Know It All, Your right it was 28F mean. Not sure how I F'd that up. But I can count on you to correct it. 

[Xenon]

1 minute ago, Collectorpalms said:

Ok Mr. Know It All, Your right it was 28F mean. Not sure how I F'd that up. But I can count on you to correct it. 

Just a quick check at the Houston NWS page haha

Are your Livistona chinensis still alive? I saw a nice one today at La Botana on HWY 6, maybe 2 feet of trunk? 

 

[Collectorpalms]

25 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Just a quick check at the Houston NWS page haha

Are your Livistona chinensis still alive? I saw a nice one today at La Botana on HWY 6, maybe 2 feet of trunk? 

 

4 alive ones. The biggest one with about 10ft of trunk got beat up from ice wind, but the others look good.

[Little Tex]

2 hours ago, knikfar said:

Beautiful photos! Seeing all the surviving CIDP, I’m wondering if a CIDP x Butia x Jubaea hybrid might produce something super hardy. Assuming that combo is even possible

Thank you! I'm trying to use what I am learning in photography class!