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Palmageddon Aftermath Photo Thread

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NBTX11
3 minutes ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have an ambient temperature sensor on my back porch.  I registered 6F and 9F lows on the 15th and 16th, respectively (NW Bexar County, Approximate Elevation: 1300 feet).  Slightly colder than areas inside the 1604 or I-410 loops at elevations below 1000 feet.

The NB elevation is only 6-700 feet until it starts dramatically rising on the west side of town. There is a sharp cut off where it starts going up about a mile or two west of I35. 

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Collectorpalms
1 hour ago, NBTX11 said:

Everyone who planted Sabal Palmettos never had a thing to worry about. 

D54319F4-C261-4AF3-AE0F-25E3AF410FAE.jpeg

I find beauty in this landscape, while most probably don’t. The collector in me won’t allow me to only plant 1 type of palm. But for a business it’s great. Are we to assume these are all Palmetto?

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Ryland
3 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@NBTX11 How many hours were you below freezing for in total? I'm trying to work out whether the absolute low, or the duration, is more important for survival. Obviously both factors play a part in survival. However many hours it was, the CIDP's in your area have clearly come through it and survived.

The inland regions in the south coast of France lost most of their CIDP's from 10F and about 100 hours below freezing a few years back. They were totally defoliated and never grew back. Yet it seems you guys were a bit colder than they were during your February freeze. The same with El Paso, where most of the CIDP's were killed off by -13C about a decade ago and they were only below freezing for what... 24-36 hours at most. 

I have also heard of CIDP's in northern Florida being killed outright by 15F and less than 50 hours below freezing.  So there seems to be a lot of contradictory reports about their hardiness threshold and survivability. I don't know how much of the old information is true, or whether CIDP's were presumed dead and removed, but actually still alive? But there are definitely inconsistencies in the reports.

I think another factor to consider is humidity?  I briefly lived in north Florida - always humid.  In fact it wasn't a good climate for CIDPs as they tend to do better in a drier climate, with cooler nights (that's not to say they can't be grown perfectly well in Florida - but they always do better in California).  I'm not surprised that 15F and less than 50 hours (which is still a lot!) below freezing could wipe them out there.  The higher humidity during these freezes, and the longer they last and the deeper they are, all contribute.  Below -12C/10F, it's probably diminishing odds of survival regardless of humidity for mature plants.  This might be comparable to a humid -8C/17F freeze.

I'd be curious to know whether these low temperatures in Texas were accompanied by high or low humidity.  West Texas and the western/high plains tend to be pretty dry and logically it seems like air pushing down from the Arctic, crossing much of the continent (as opposed to ocean) on the way would have been a drier freeze, but then these palms are mostly in more humid east Texas - but those posting the photos here will know first-hand!

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GoatLockerGuns
27 minutes ago, Ryland said:

I'd be curious to know whether these low temperatures in Texas were accompanied by high or low humidity.

Official weather data for that week from Weather Underground:

image.jpeg.042d9c15963fda2beb681f174795b9ef.jpeg

The 15th and 16th saw the coldest nights (slightly colder at my location as previously reported).  Humidity in the San Antonio area varies.  I have lived in the Chesapeake, Virginia and Jupiter, Florida in the past.  I have never experienced that kind of "Southeast" humidity here in San Antonio.  I believe a lot of it has to do with the wind direction (as you aforementioned).  I have noticed that winds out of the W to NW usually bring drier air, while winds out of the E to SE usually bring more humidity.  I am no meteorologist though; these are just my own anecdotal observations.

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Teegurr
52 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

The reality is there is exceptionally few CIDP or Pure Filifera in College Station. They have never been planted at well known establishments, where people can see them.  You have to hunt for them. 

I have them because I was advised what survived the 80s. 

Here's the CIDP I've seen:

One on Lawyer near Shadowwood

Two on Welsh near Willow Loop

That row of them in Bryan

Two on Edelweiss near Rock Prairie

Two on Glade and Village (might be dactys, can't remember)

There's also a bunch of W. filifera in front of Shipwreck Grill on Villa Maria.

 

Screenshot_20210411-151846_Maps.jpg

Edited by Teegurr

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Collectorpalms
10 minutes ago, Teegurr said:

Here's the CIDP I've seen:

One on Lawyer near Shadowwood

Two on Welsh near Willow Loop

That row of them in Bryan

Two on Edelweiss near Rock Prairie

 

... exactly. Not many. I planted 2 for myself and 4 others elsewhere.

The shipwreck Grill, and a Whataburger is the only place that has a few Washingtonia left. What about all the other restaurants/Hotels that have no palms left. You will quickly find that 90 percent are not growing as of last I checked. 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Teegurr
2 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

... exactly. Not many. I planted 2 for myself and 4 others elsewhere.

Hey, would mind telling where that CIDP you planted near the Brazos is? I'd love to see it.

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Collectorpalms
5 minutes ago, Teegurr said:

Hey, would mind telling where that CIDP you planted near the Brazos is? I'd love to see it.

It’s on private property at the end of Pitts Rd. it’s basically behind the Riverside Campus on the NW side of Brazos County. It’s alive.

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NBTX11
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

... exactly. Not many. I planted 2 for myself and 4 others elsewhere.

The shipwreck Grill, and a Whataburger is the only place that has a few Washingtonia left. What about all the other restaurants/Hotels that have no palms left. You will quickly find that 90 percent are not growing as of last I checked. 

Only that few?  I mean we lost 75 percent of our palms but there are still hundreds of Sabals, windmills, med fans, Filifera, and canary island dates. I know of like 50 canary island dates. And there are Filifera scattered all throughout town in NB. 

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Collectorpalms
9 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Only that few?  I mean we lost 75 percent of our palms but there are still hundreds of Sabals, windmills, med fans, Filifera, and canary island dates. I know of like 50 canary island dates. And there are Filifera scattered all throughout town in NB. 

No you can drive the whole length of Texas Avenue through all of College Station and Bryan, and you will so far see exactly less than 10 palms ( generous) alive over a 10 miles drive. 

We never have had a private retail nursery that supplied uncommon palms like Sabals. 

We were the official Crape Myrtle and unofficial Robusta Capital of central Texas.

Edited by Collectorpalms

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NBTX11
3 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

No you can drive the whole length of Texas Avenue through all of College Station and Bryan, and you will so far see exactly less than 10 palms ( generous) alive over a 10 miles drive. 

We never have had a private retail nursery that supplied uncommon palms like Sabals. 

We were the official Crape Myrtle and unofficial Robusta Capital of central Texas.

Maybe our climate is slightly more agreeable to Filifera, because there are old ones scattered throughout New Braunfels in older neighborhoods. A vast majority of the palms were Robusta (killed), but there were a lot of other palms also. Within a quarter mile of my house there are numerous windmills, Sabals and canary island dates. One guy has like 8 large Sabals in his yard. 

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UK_Palms

College station had a daily high temperature of just 20F (-6.6C) on the 15th!? That's crazy for 30N. I'm way up here at 51N and my lowest nighttime temperature all winter was 21F (-6.1C). It looks like they were either at or below freezing for about 120 consecutive hours as well in College Station. An absolute low of 4F (-16C) according to @Collectorpalms I think he said.

If the CIDP and Filifera's have survived from that, I am more hopeful of them also surviving long term for me here, inland at 51N. I've never been anywhere near that cold before, but CIDP's and Washies are still considered pretty marginal here in my location. But if they can come back from 4F (-16C) and 120 hours below freezing, they can surely come back from just about anything here. The coldest I have ever seen in my lifetime is 12F (-11C) and about 72 hours below freezing, back in 2010. 

Perhaps the winter/spring warm-up is more of a factor than I am crediting it. You would think the ultimate low and duration below freezing are more important for survival though than the warm-up period that follows it. Of course a decent warm-up period helps recovery, but Dallas reached 80F a week after the freeze yet everything is still dead there due to the ultimate low of 0F and 250 hours below freezing. So the winter/spring warmup becomes irrelevant. 

Have any CIDP or Washies actually survived in the DFW area, or is everything toast? I remember seeing a photo of a big CIDP in Dallas that was up against a building and about 30-40 feet tall. Obviously it would have been defoliated, but does anyone know whether it has pulled through and put out new growth, or is it totally smoked?

 

3 hours ago, Xenon said:

I see living CIDP in College Station. Most pure Washingtonia filifera and Sabal mexicana are pushing green too

collegestation.JPG.44a30d26d4305d9c0b04a7f87ed1c8b3.JPG

 

Edited by UK_Palms
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NBTX11

One thing to consider is rainfall. While we get 32 inches of rain a year where I am, it is concentrated in thunderstorms, not constant mist and drizzle for months on end. It either rains hard, or it doesn’t rain for the most part. There are exceptions. We can get 7 inches of rain in a thunderstorm event, and then barely rain for 2 months. 

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Collectorpalms

20F is really generous for a high. It lasted a few minutes.

What you not considering is how badly damaged the trunks on the CIDP look. All the old boot just slough off, and they become rather unsightly. 

In Regards to Dallas, it was more harsh there, and I do not know yet if Filifera made it. There was extremely few CIDP to begin with. We had A few larger older Canaries here, that Dallas did not. 

Edited by Collectorpalms

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TonyDFW

Here are some old CIDPs in Dallas before the big freeze. 

6E710B99-EBB5-461F-AEB1-706B296AECD0.jpeg

EB866E22-7A74-4204-8F00-619FE265F40B.jpeg

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Collectorpalms
7 minutes ago, TonyDFW said:

Here are some old CIDPs in Dallas before the big freeze. 

6E710B99-EBB5-461F-AEB1-706B296AECD0.jpeg

EB866E22-7A74-4204-8F00-619FE265F40B.jpeg

I don’t where any are in Dallas to check out. I know of a couple in Arlington and one on interstate 45 just south of town. Don’t recall seeing any others posted online either except those above, and don’t know where those are. None at the Dallas Arboretum.

The one in the first picture had a much better chance than the One across Wendy’s. But if Filifera don’t come back I will be more disappointed. 


CIDP did come back in EL Paso in 2011

Edited by Collectorpalms
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UK_Palms
4 minutes ago, TonyDFW said:

Here are some old CIDPs in Dallas before the big freeze. 

6E710B99-EBB5-461F-AEB1-706B296AECD0.jpeg

EB866E22-7A74-4204-8F00-619FE265F40B.jpeg

Is there any signs of life in them? They aren't fully grown but they are mature at least and the trunks are pretty fat, like Filifera trunks. What about that big CIDP in the Dallas CBD that is up against a tall building? Someone posted a photo of it here not too long ago, pre-freeze of course. If any are going to survive, surely it has to be that one. 

Also the second picture has got to be Dacty hybrid, surely?

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UK_Palms

What on earth is this big one outside the Dallas Aquarium!? A Jubaea, or Butia? The fronds don't look like either though, so maybe a hybrid? In fact I have never seen such a small crown, on such a tall palm. If it is in fact a Jubaea, then one of that size could certainly survive the freeze in Dallas. I know they are very hardy and mature specimens have survived -17C in France I believe. However this one doesn't look too healthy and has a dodgy crown. I'm guessing it got blitzed in the freeze?

Screenshot 2021-04-11 at 23.29.47.png

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Collectorpalms

It’s a jubaea. And that small crown is the result of a subpar environment. It was transplanted there a few years ago and never looked happy. 

Edited by Collectorpalms
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UK_Palms
3 minutes ago, Collectorpalms said:

It’s a jubaea. And that small crown is the result of a subpar environment. It was transplanted there a few years ago and never looked happy. 

Any hope for it at all, following the freeze? Or is it one for the chainsaw?

 

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Xenon
1 hour ago, Collectorpalms said:

No you can drive the whole length of Texas Avenue through all of College Station and Bryan, and you will so far see exactly less than 10 palms ( generous) alive over a 10 miles drive. 

 

Add another 10 along University and Harvey haha 

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Xenon

Just a little update on WSW Houston around HW 6 and Bellaire Blvd (west of BW8):

Robusta there is NOT looking very good at all. I was shocked to see how bad it looks there, not that much better than Katy and imo slightly worse than right along I-10 (might just be my sample). 

robustamap.jpg.b530c08073093395934c90126600ff61.jpg

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Collectorpalms

A rather precipitous drop off for thousand and thousand of Robustas in that area. 

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NBTX11
4 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

I have lived in the Chesapeake, Virginia and Jupiter, Florida in the past.  I have never experienced that kind of "Southeast" humidity here in San Antonio. 

I have, but it's rare.  I also lived in Tampa, Florida for 5 years.  I know what humidity is.  It's very rare, but San Antonio can experience Southeast type humidity, usually accompanied by some type of humid severe weather event.  It is rare though.

Those that think San Antonio is humid have no idea what they are talking about. 

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NBTX11

I'm actually impressed 10-20 percent are surviving in Katy.  It's about 0-3 percent here.  And 3 percent might be generous.  If you include moderate trunked hybrids it might be 10 percent (maybe).

Edited by NBTX11

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Teegurr
12 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

I'm actually impressed 10-20 percent are surviving in Katy.  It's about 0-3 percent here.  And 3 percent might be generous.  If you include moderate trunked hybrids it might be 10 percent (maybe).

That would probably be because Katy was about 3 degrees warmer than you.

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Xenon
33 minutes ago, Teegurr said:

That would probably be because Katy was about 3 degrees warmer than you.

 

46 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

I'm actually impressed 10-20 percent are surviving in Katy.  It's about 0-3 percent here.  And 3 percent might be generous.  If you include moderate trunked hybrids it might be 10 percent (maybe).

Also this is Katy east of or stone's throw distance from SH 99. "Real" Katy (Old Katy) is historically significantly colder. Old Katy and New Katy/Energy Corridor was the difference between (nearly all) dead and live queens throughout all of the freezes in the 2010s, SH 99 is the rough dividing line (at least within 3-5 miles from I-10). 

Edited by Xenon

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palmsOrl
2 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

What on earth is this big one outside the Dallas Aquarium!? A Jubaea, or Butia? The fronds don't look like either though, so maybe a hybrid? In fact I have never seen such a small crown, on such a tall palm. If it is in fact a Jubaea, then one of that size could certainly survive the freeze in Dallas. I know they are very hardy and mature specimens have survived -17C in France I believe. However this one doesn't look too healthy and has a dodgy crown. I'm guessing it got blitzed in the freeze?

Screenshot 2021-04-11 at 23.29.47.png

That's first thing I thought when I saw that palm.  Highly unusual appearance whatever it is.

I later read it is a Jubaea.  I like it because I admire palms that have had a rough life and survived anyways.  If I lived anywhere nearby I would bring it a bag of premo fertilizer.

-Michael

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TonyDFW

Here is a canary island date palm that s as spears to have survived the big freeze in Dallas 

3916262F-1667-46CF-8CE5-B38A3EC8CD06.jpeg

F8727A03-6CF0-4B44-9E2E-9F74D8F0255E.jpeg

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TonyDFW

25 foot tall unprotected Washingtonia coming back from Dallas big freeze

2FB69A1E-B11B-4A9D-BB3C-4FAE5C53401C.jpeg

C7F7BE26-0097-4303-8115-5A41CF449B0C.jpeg

5E3EFA5E-99B5-4282-85AF-5B9F57F60E2A.jpeg

02FC9C66-CAF5-4331-88D0-331CA53D2C8F.jpeg

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Collectorpalms

The pulse of the big Aquarium Jubaea is still a mystery... I am hoping it puts out a few fronds before DFW heat kicks in and slows it.

Love Field was a +2. I had +4. Looks like same damage despite the longer hours of freeze there. Who would have known...

Edited by Collectorpalms

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PricklyPearSATC

Stupid columnist in the San Antonio Express News (Calvin Finch) said to "Get rid of Sago Palms if they don't start growing in 4 weeks"....
What a jerk

He also said no viburnums (suspensum) survived in San Antonio, but mine are all coming back from the roots etc and some have growth throughout. 

He makes me mad!!!

I have mature sago palms, that can go a year without producing new fronds. 

Edited by PricklyPearSATC

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AnTonY

For reasons I don't understand, there are peculiar tendencies in weather patterns that manifest just to the west of Texas. And I think that they are responsible in interrupting beneficial weather patterns that would otherwise be present across the state - and in all seasons.

The 00z GFS run below illustrates what I think is an issue for Texas during fall through spring season. Go through the run, and notice how there is always that SAME type of positive trough/upper-low (SW-NE orientated) that keeps finding a way into that Arizona/Mexican Sonora region. It keeps recurring, regardless of ENSO state, teleconnection, antecedent height pattern, etc. That is the type of pattern that brings those lingering periods of overcast/cold rain into Texas winter, as well as ice/snow events like Feb with cold enough antecedent airmasses. When such patterns linger into spring, that brings those 2015-type heavy spring rain flood events into the state (especially if the trough "cuts off").

Same problems in summer, just instead with a ridge out West. For whatever reason, a ridge out West leads to dry weather in many inland portions of the state, even when not directly overhead. The dry weather is bad due to the drought stress it can cause when combined with the heat. Even places like Brownsville would be a lot wetter in summer on par with South Florida if the height patterns simply shift. 

 

Screenshot (54).png

Edited by AnTonY
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Jtee
14 hours ago, NBTX11 said:

I have, but it's rare.  I also lived in Tampa, Florida for 5 years.  I know what humidity is.  It's very rare, but San Antonio can experience Southeast type humidity, usually accompanied by some type of humid severe weather event.  It is rare though.

Those that think San Antonio is humid have no idea what they are talking about. 

When I check the weather I’ve noticed many times that New Braunfels is just as humid or a little less than I am here in South Alabama. I don’t check that often but when I do the humidity is not off by much. IMO I feel New Braunfels is more humid in the winter especially at night than it is here. Now humidity in Tampa is horrible. 
just checked the weather, currently here in Enterprise Alabama is 49%humidity and in New Braunfels at 71%humidity. 

Edited by Jtee
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Collectorpalms

Case of Sabal Mexicana (right) beating Palmetto. Both had seeds in the mulch to verify. This is actually a puny Mexicana. I was surprised.

29D0ABE2-00AF-4CFC-B6CF-D3D98DA210B5.jpeg

Edited by Collectorpalms
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Collectorpalms

Case of location location location.

Zero growth on Mediterranean on any on north side of building.

100 survival on south side of building.
 

Other side of building had mixed results. 

4BD9A8B6-4A47-4955-93F0-2D2BBE9592CE.jpeg

FD3A96DB-4B52-4483-8AB1-C34AB7F5F1C4.jpeg

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Collectorpalms

A few Bastrop, Texas palms. Two pairs of Double planted CIDP at each side of a car wash. One Washingtonia alive.

0280D664-CEDC-4CA1-B365-C92F01BD9D24.jpeg

95EF6576-CED4-4B6E-8CED-97BA5851D51B.jpeg

F9DEA8DD-CBB4-4302-A000-A0C93ACC788D.jpeg

DA37F6D0-51DA-441C-BC08-6A05E06DF767.jpeg

DDB30BFF-E9AB-4D80-A2F6-EB8C569CF7DC.jpeg

600CC010-D8A5-41E4-A124-464B5E1F04A0.jpeg
 

on the last picture if you can squint you see a partial trunk of a Washingtonia lower right. It died in 2011. The trunk that they left was about 4 ft tall.??

Edited by Collectorpalms
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MesquiteRetreat

Two of our Roystonea regia are pushing up a green spear!!! YAY!!! Unfortunately, there is no movement on any of our Wodyetia bifurcata, although most still do have erect spears. And most seem to have solid trunks...no mushy or soft spots. But it's been two months...how much longer should we wait before we accept that they need to be replaced???

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Xerarch
On 4/11/2021 at 2:32 PM, Xenon said:

I see living CIDP in College Station. Most pure Washingtonia filifera and Sabal mexicana are pushing green too

collegestation.JPG.44a30d26d4305d9c0b04a7f87ed1c8b3.JPG

Where did you get that nice data table? I'm always looking for stuff like this

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Xenon
2 hours ago, Xerarch said:

Where did you get that nice data table? I'm always looking for stuff like this

Hi, you can access NOWData through any local NWS homepage. If it doesn't appear on the dropdown, just click on "past climate and weather" and it should be available on the far right.

NOWData.thumb.JPG.e3f4fdc6a6fff7c0d2cd01b17f89685d.JPG

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